I said almost any situation and would maintain that.
I don't know how to argue with what you wrote. To me it is absolutely obvious that 100% lifesteal would be so broken that nobody would go crag hive again.
But it's irrelevant, because again, you have to compare the whole tech tree, not just compare two traits.
Nobody is saying that lifesteal has to be better or even as good as regeneration - it simply has to compensate for the missing survivabillity that there is now.
Moreover, biting rt's is much easier with shade hive traits @meatmachine.
Edit: To fix the valid point people have been raising where lifesteal won't benefit out of combat - you could make lifesteal work on teamdamage as well. So you could bite a team mate and trade hp, or even a structure.
Since when was there a problem with 'missing survivability'?
Even if there was missing survivability, introducing an entirely new ability would not be an appropriate solution without first looking at other options requiring less effort.
From what I can see in this thread the 'problem' that lifesteal is intended to fix is 'a couple of people think there should be 3 evos per hive'. Ummm ok
You're repeatedly comparing a new feature with the exact versions of other abilities in the game currently, i cannot fathom why you would do so in this type of discussion. You can't add a new feature and hope it fixes everything, you need to adjust others to fit to the goal that you are seeking, which is make all hives as close to balanced as you can. Current imbalance is Shade hive, and that should get the most changes, adding lifesteal would not be the only thing, i'd say Ink should have some other added benefits, in addition to hallucination should be just removed for something better, It's annoying as it is to play against cloaking, but hallucinations are just way to make it go over the top, and i can't really recall a situation where they have been working "well".
What lifesteal is "supposed" to fix is Shade hive being outright worst for fades/onii in the game, when the only ability worth using is the same as having game awareness. There's little to point choosing Shade hive over Crag/Shift as it is. The way they "fixed" it in NS1 was adding focus (double dmg, lower attack speed), that would be one way but with this engine i would rather not introduce oneshot abilities for aliens..
The point of going shade first is that it's a very powerful opener for early game ambushing and RT harassment but leaves you vulnerable if you dont get the 2nd (crag) hive upgrades in time for W2 shotguns. If you use it well, you put yourself pretty far ahead. If you don't, well, you took the gamble and couldn't pull it off. It's a risk-reward thing rather than shade simply being worse. This is why shade start should be followed as quickly as possible by the 2nd hive, shells and biomass
Disagree with the statements on regen. I can't remember if it's only compmod, but the change for regen to be massively reduced/stopped in combat and for a time afterwards means that skulks with regen have essentially no combat advantage within the engagement. Lifesteal would give skulks a much better chance within the engagement (but would I agree be less useful for hit-and-run situations). Lifesteal would make establishing forward ambushes really important, and very powerful. This in turn would make it more difficult for marines to be super offensive, if potentially they had to do 350 damage to kill a skulk in CQC - which is where the superOP 100% lifesteal argument is coming from.
Santaclaws is right - you simply can't say that regen would always be better, because it is very easy already to imagine scenarios where, without even modifying vanilla regen, lifesteal could be more powerful and a better option. It should go without saying that such an ability would require not insignificant rebalancing across the game.
I think there may be more valid argument to say that HP-giving upgrades shouldn't necessarily be on all 3 upgrade paths, but ultimately that is what has led us to the current meta of crag being preferred. Shade does afford effective HP bonus in the form of hallucinations, but that is an active bonus with tres cost and also requires the drifter to be in combat support, whereas on the crag hive the abilities are passive, of course.
I'm not sure there's any good reason not to try some of these ideas out. They might not work and it's worth not getting wedded to any one idea over others, of course.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited October 2014
@roobubba i meant in the middle of two mini-engagements. If you meant mine, that is.
EG: Skulk sneaks around corner, gets shot to half health, hides, regenerates to full heath before re-engaging, but marine is slowed down because he knows there might be a skulk sneaking around behind him.
Regen can be far more tactically useful than any other ability in the game, except maybe aura or phantom. In the right situations, anyway.
But it's irrelevant, because again, you have to compare the whole tech tree, not just compare two traits.
Nobody is saying that lifesteal has to be better or even as good as regeneration - it simply has to compensate for the missing survivabillity that there is now.
Missing survivability from... what exactly? Sorry, i'm missing out on your argument here.
Edit: To fix the valid point people have been raising where lifesteal won't benefit out of combat - you could make lifesteal work on teamdamage as well. So you could bite a team mate and trade hp, or even a structure.
....this would be bad design.
Having life-steal work out of combat would eliminate the need or even use for regen.
Good design:
Carapace would be The one time wonder.
Regen would be good out of combat
Lifesteal would be good in combat.
While i like the idea of giving lifesteal to shade hive, i also really don't like the idea, as it gives power where power isn't intended to be.
Hmm, I will concede that lifesteal as a shade upgrade wouldnt be useless or necessarily OP, and would probably be quite fun to play with, AND would even fit in with the shade "deception" theme (that skulk's got one hit left! ohnolol he bit a marine so he's got loads)/
I have a habit of inadvertantly playing devils advocate on these forums, haha
I still don't think there's a reason to fiddle with the hive upgrades. As @Roobubba said, the introduction of just one would require considerable rebalancing.
I saw earlier someone suggested silence as a shift ability. Ogod.
Just so i'm clear, is this the kinda rework we're thinking about? (an amalgamation of a few ideas i've seen here) -
Shift - Celery, Adren, Silence
Shade - Phantom, Aura, Lifesteal
Crag - Carapace, Regen, ClogSkin (the 'gremlin'? DPS-capping armor that acts like clogs so i'm gonna call it clog armor/skin/whatever)
The more I think about it, the more I feel like it could work. Someone make the mod pl0x
Hmm, I will concede that lifesteal as a shade upgrade wouldnt be useless or necessarily OP, and would probably be quite fun to play with, AND would even fit in with the shade "deception" theme (that skulk's got one hit left! ohnolol he bit a marine so he's got loads)/
I have a habit of inadvertantly playing devils advocate on these forums, haha
I still don't think there's a reason to fiddle with the hive upgrades. As @Roobubba said, the introduction of just one would require considerable rebalancing.
I saw earlier someone suggested silence as a shift ability. Ogod.
Just so i'm clear, is this the kinda rework we're thinking about? (an amalgamation of a few ideas i've seen here) -
Shift - Celery, Adren, Silence
Shade - Phantom, Aura, Lifesteal
Crag - Carapace, Regen, ClogSkin (the 'gremlin'? DPS-capping armor that acts like clogs so i'm gonna call it clog armor/skin/whatever)
Just like to point out Celerity already works a bit like Silence. Skulks can walk at 5 speed silently with Celerity. :P
I just had a random idea for a new Shade hive upgrade:
(Edit)Nightmare - aliens with this upgrade do not give damage information when hit, aliens killed remain alive for a few seconds longer (with no attack capability).
I imagine it will be a nightmare for marines to deal with, by confusing marines and soaking up bullets.
@AurOn2 - I'm not going to attempt working with quotes again, it didn't go well last time.
Although some of my comment was directed partially at you, it was mainly at meatmachine - I apologize for not using references better there.
Missing survivabillity refers to the scenario where you open shade hive i.e. -> can't get crag upgrades for the rest of the game. You're stuck in this tech parth, unlike marines that can shift tech paths when ever they please.
About the teamdamage thing. I think you're making the same mistake as meatmachine did, by evaluating too early that it would be op. Keep in mind:
In compmod there is only 33% teamdamage (correct me if I'm wrong). So 2/3rds So right off the bat that is 66% less health you'd gain from teamdamage.
It presupposses that you have friendly players or structures in the vicinity - a significant consideration when chosing between regen or lifesteal.
It can forever be tweaked how much teamdamage would affect lifesteal to the point where you'd have to sac entire harvesters to regenerate a skulk - at that point it can hardly be considered OP.
no.
I don't think we are 'evaluating too early',
COMPMOD may have friendly fire, but VANILLA DOES NOT.
and for a goddamn good reason to.
...and i hope we aren't suggesting abilities to be used exclusively in compmod.
That's exactly what compmod is for though... Metabolize started as a compmod exclusive abillity - you have hmg etc... This is a silly complaint.
Anyway, if teamdamage is disabled on the server, well that doesn't render lifesteal completely useless - just less useful. So it wouldn't necessarily be a comp only abillity - they'd just be different, which isn't really anything new (see regeneration, welders etc.).
Many pub servers have team damage enabled btw and/or compmod.
Just so i'm clear, is this the kinda rework we're thinking about? (an amalgamation of a few ideas i've seen here) -
Shift - Celery, Adren, Silence
Shade - Phantom, Aura, Lifesteal
Crag - Carapace, Regen, ClogSkin (the 'gremlin'? DPS-capping armor that acts like clogs so i'm gonna call it clog armor/skin/whatever)
Crag doesn't need new upgrades, clogskin or w/e that was mentioned isn't needed, there's no "need 3 upgrades for every hive"-agenda here, we just want them to be closer to each other in viability. Silence is already removed from cloaking at least in compmod, honestly can't remember how it's in vanilla at this time, but i'd say it could just be removed or added to shift, either is fine i'd say, the latter might make Shift hives the go to solution though, and seeing we're wanting to add Shade's viability that might not work out too well.
Regarding the whole regen argument that seem to be thrown around, just to make it clear, the engagement ends if you're too far away from a marine to kill him when he starts to reload. I feel this whole emphasis on how regen is better in engagement scenarios that's been thrown around seem to be quite surreal in my eyes. Let alone you might be playing compmod where you have no incombat regen, as was mentioned already. And this 100% lifesteal thing, stop talking about numbers in damage, talk about how the engagements should go, this should not be a 'i-win' button for aliens who happen to land bites, it's just an ability that gives a slight more sustainability in combat before you die, not make you invincible.
@twiliteblue, nightmare would be op in the sense that mass-nightmare base-rushes would be very hard to counter. As for the 2nd nightmare, that wouldn't be too useful imo.
@twiliteblue, nightmare would be op in the sense that mass-nightmare base-rushes would be very hard to counter. As for the 2nd nightmare, that wouldn't be too useful imo.
I imagine it would be, hence its name.
I've edited my suggestion for a more balanced aggressive Shade hive upgrade. Marines won't get the satisfaction or the comfort of receiving damage numbers or hit indicators, which could be useful against skillful marines. Additionally dead aliens with this upgrade will help soak up damage.
Alternatively, Nightmare could be:
Mines, Grenades and Sentries can no longer target you. You can continue to move for 2 seconds after death.
How about that?
I think adding a new upgrade to each hive tech branch is necessary to add more fun to the game, by accomodating a wider range of different playstyles, as well as allow aliens slightly more flexibility when on one hive for extended amount of time (so aliens aren't bored to death when losing).
I just think shade needs a rework. The marines can hard counter half the upgrades with a building's passive ability and the triggered ability (scan). It's along the lines of a flamethrower denying umbra, spores, bile bomb, structure passive abilities, does damage and saps energy - it's a hard counter to many alien abilities (different BC it cost more res and is in the hands of a player).
Just.... try stuff. Uwe dropped the ball on the shade hive. Disappointing BC a lot of people trolled sensory chamber in ns1 BC it wasn't pub - friendly (not sure if it was friendly at all).
I don't think they dropped the ball on shade hive. Phantom and aura or even silence are excellent traits - well balanced even. Ink has its uses, although limited - and the shade itself is very useful as well (people just don't use it correctly imo).
The only problem is the lategame. Give it something for the lategame and it'd be an excellent hive. No need to do anything drastic like making a complete rework.
I'd love to see the shade's ink be replaced with passive halucinations.
Something like if a marine get to near, or it gets uncloaked, 2-3 skulk halucinations are created randomly within its cloak radius. At the very least this would serve as a better distraction than ink (imo)
The only problem is the lategame. Give it something for the lategame and it'd be an excellent hive. No need to do anything drastic like making a complete rework.
Aura is the single best lategame trait. I'm not sure what you're talking about lol.
I'd love to see the shade's ink be replaced with passive halucinations.
Something like if a marine get to near, or it gets uncloaked, 2-3 skulk halucinations are created randomly within its cloak radius. At the very least this would serve as a better distraction than ink (imo)
I personally think ink should be changed to cause disorientation among the marines, perhaps things like impaired movement and hazy vision. Of course, an increase in res cost might be needed.
I'd love to see the shade's ink be replaced with passive halucinations.
Something like if a marine get to near, or it gets uncloaked, 2-3 skulk halucinations are created randomly within its cloak radius. At the very least this would serve as a better distraction than ink (imo)
I personally think ink should be changed to cause disorientation among the marines, perhaps things like impaired movement and hazy vision. Of course, an increase in res cost might be needed.
On a somewhat related note, I wish that Rupture is remade to a useful ability. Even when it splashes a marine perfectly, it has little effect. If it obscures vision too much, it would become unfun to play against.
The only problem is the lategame. Give it something for the lategame and it'd be an excellent hive. No need to do anything drastic like making a complete rework.
Aura is the single best lategame trait. I'm not sure what you're talking about lol.
Can you elaborate as to why you think so? The only (marginal) usefulness I've found with Aura in the late game is that it helps you spot marines trying to get a sneaky gate up.
The only problem is the lategame. Give it something for the lategame and it'd be an excellent hive. No need to do anything drastic like making a complete rework.
Aura is the single best lategame trait. I'm not sure what you're talking about lol.
Can you elaborate as to why you think so? The only (marginal) usefulness I've found with Aura in the late game is that it helps you spot marines trying to get a sneaky gate up.
Say there are 3 marines. You see one is low health, an easy kill. Instead of trying to kill a full health marine, go for the low health one. You kill him. Now there are 2 marines which have 1/3 less total damage output and that much easier to kill by subsequent aliens.
@james888 your math and/or language is off there. The 2 marines have the same damage output, but collectively the group has 2/3 the damage output if you pick off 1/3 marines.
Language was off but now corrected. Don't just think before you type folks, make sure you read it afterwards too.
^^ And also when you're attacking and planing your escape routes, no more getting trapped by a sneaky shotgunner camping round a corner on your way back to the hive. For both lerks and fades, aura is an extraordinarily powerful upgrade!
@james888 your math and/or language is off there. The 2 marines have the same damage output, but collectively the group has 2/3 the damage output if you pick off 1/3 marines.
The only problem is the lategame. Give it something for the lategame and it'd be an excellent hive. No need to do anything drastic like making a complete rework.
Aura is the single best lategame trait. I'm not sure what you're talking about lol.
Can you elaborate as to why you think so? The only (marginal) usefulness I've found with Aura in the late game is that it helps you spot marines trying to get a sneaky gate up.
Sure.
It does a few things.
1. It gives you almost complete map awareness if the rest of your team also communicates marine locations. This allows you to call hits, picks, and crushes much easier.
2. It's the anti-lifeform trap and or pinch.
Most importantly:
3. The hardest thing about late game is engaging since the marines are tech'd to a level where your margin for error is much lower if you want to win the engagement. Aura basically auto-synchronizes your targets during attacks granted the higher lifeforms aren't stupid.
To me, the strongest combination is still Crag-Shade hive in either order. Once aliens understand how to engage properly, celerity really only gets you to where you are going faster... nothing else. Aura/regen takes an extra second to get there but is a much more effective pairing for pre, during, and post engagement.
Comments
I don't know how to argue with what you wrote. To me it is absolutely obvious that 100% lifesteal would be so broken that nobody would go crag hive again.
But it's irrelevant, because again, you have to compare the whole tech tree, not just compare two traits.
Nobody is saying that lifesteal has to be better or even as good as regeneration - it simply has to compensate for the missing survivabillity that there is now.
Moreover, biting rt's is much easier with shade hive traits @meatmachine.
Edit: To fix the valid point people have been raising where lifesteal won't benefit out of combat - you could make lifesteal work on teamdamage as well. So you could bite a team mate and trade hp, or even a structure.
Even if there was missing survivability, introducing an entirely new ability would not be an appropriate solution without first looking at other options requiring less effort.
From what I can see in this thread the 'problem' that lifesteal is intended to fix is 'a couple of people think there should be 3 evos per hive'. Ummm ok
What lifesteal is "supposed" to fix is Shade hive being outright worst for fades/onii in the game, when the only ability worth using is the same as having game awareness. There's little to point choosing Shade hive over Crag/Shift as it is. The way they "fixed" it in NS1 was adding focus (double dmg, lower attack speed), that would be one way but with this engine i would rather not introduce oneshot abilities for aliens..
Santaclaws is right - you simply can't say that regen would always be better, because it is very easy already to imagine scenarios where, without even modifying vanilla regen, lifesteal could be more powerful and a better option. It should go without saying that such an ability would require not insignificant rebalancing across the game.
I think there may be more valid argument to say that HP-giving upgrades shouldn't necessarily be on all 3 upgrade paths, but ultimately that is what has led us to the current meta of crag being preferred. Shade does afford effective HP bonus in the form of hallucinations, but that is an active bonus with tres cost and also requires the drifter to be in combat support, whereas on the crag hive the abilities are passive, of course.
I'm not sure there's any good reason not to try some of these ideas out. They might not work and it's worth not getting wedded to any one idea over others, of course.
EG: Skulk sneaks around corner, gets shot to half health, hides, regenerates to full heath before re-engaging, but marine is slowed down because he knows there might be a skulk sneaking around behind him.
Regen can be far more tactically useful than any other ability in the game, except maybe aura or phantom. In the right situations, anyway.
@santaclaws I also said almost any situation. I even listed the situations for both sides where one would win and the other would lose.
Missing survivability from... what exactly? Sorry, i'm missing out on your argument here.
Agreed. Wasting time + a scan? or even, killing an RT + A scan? PROFIT!
Shade is also the best hive for >not< being ambushed by marines. ....this would be bad design.
Having life-steal work out of combat would eliminate the need or even use for regen.
Good design:
Carapace would be The one time wonder.
Regen would be good out of combat
Lifesteal would be good in combat.
While i like the idea of giving lifesteal to shade hive, i also really don't like the idea, as it gives power where power isn't intended to be.
I have a habit of inadvertantly playing devils advocate on these forums, haha
I still don't think there's a reason to fiddle with the hive upgrades. As @Roobubba said, the introduction of just one would require considerable rebalancing.
I saw earlier someone suggested silence as a shift ability. Ogod.
Just so i'm clear, is this the kinda rework we're thinking about? (an amalgamation of a few ideas i've seen here) -
Shift - Celery, Adren, Silence
Shade - Phantom, Aura, Lifesteal
Crag - Carapace, Regen, ClogSkin (the 'gremlin'? DPS-capping armor that acts like clogs so i'm gonna call it clog armor/skin/whatever)
The more I think about it, the more I feel like it could work. Someone make the mod pl0x
Just like to point out Celerity already works a bit like Silence. Skulks can walk at 5 speed silently with Celerity. :P
I just had a random idea for a new Shade hive upgrade:
(Edit)Nightmare - aliens with this upgrade do not give damage information when hit, aliens killed remain alive for a few seconds longer (with no attack capability).
I imagine it will be a nightmare for marines to deal with, by confusing marines and soaking up bullets.
Although some of my comment was directed partially at you, it was mainly at meatmachine - I apologize for not using references better there.
Missing survivabillity refers to the scenario where you open shade hive i.e. -> can't get crag upgrades for the rest of the game. You're stuck in this tech parth, unlike marines that can shift tech paths when ever they please.
About the teamdamage thing. I think you're making the same mistake as meatmachine did, by evaluating too early that it would be op. Keep in mind:
I don't think we are 'evaluating too early',
COMPMOD may have friendly fire, but VANILLA DOES NOT.
and for a goddamn good reason to.
...and i hope we aren't suggesting abilities to be used exclusively in compmod.
Anyway, if teamdamage is disabled on the server, well that doesn't render lifesteal completely useless - just less useful. So it wouldn't necessarily be a comp only abillity - they'd just be different, which isn't really anything new (see regeneration, welders etc.).
Many pub servers have team damage enabled btw and/or compmod.
Regarding the whole regen argument that seem to be thrown around, just to make it clear, the engagement ends if you're too far away from a marine to kill him when he starts to reload. I feel this whole emphasis on how regen is better in engagement scenarios that's been thrown around seem to be quite surreal in my eyes. Let alone you might be playing compmod where you have no incombat regen, as was mentioned already. And this 100% lifesteal thing, stop talking about numbers in damage, talk about how the engagements should go, this should not be a 'i-win' button for aliens who happen to land bites, it's just an ability that gives a slight more sustainability in combat before you die, not make you invincible.
I imagine it would be, hence its name.
I've edited my suggestion for a more balanced aggressive Shade hive upgrade. Marines won't get the satisfaction or the comfort of receiving damage numbers or hit indicators, which could be useful against skillful marines. Additionally dead aliens with this upgrade will help soak up damage.
Alternatively, Nightmare could be:
Mines, Grenades and Sentries can no longer target you. You can continue to move for 2 seconds after death.
How about that?
I think adding a new upgrade to each hive tech branch is necessary to add more fun to the game, by accomodating a wider range of different playstyles, as well as allow aliens slightly more flexibility when on one hive for extended amount of time (so aliens aren't bored to death when losing).
Just.... try stuff. Uwe dropped the ball on the shade hive. Disappointing BC a lot of people trolled sensory chamber in ns1 BC it wasn't pub - friendly (not sure if it was friendly at all).
The only problem is the lategame. Give it something for the lategame and it'd be an excellent hive. No need to do anything drastic like making a complete rework.
Something like if a marine get to near, or it gets uncloaked, 2-3 skulk halucinations are created randomly within its cloak radius. At the very least this would serve as a better distraction than ink (imo)
You never saw people drop sensory instantly, without team consent, then disconnect?
Edit - it wasn't a troll chamber, it could just be trolled by... a troll. One more.... troll. Four is good.
Aura is the single best lategame trait. I'm not sure what you're talking about lol.
I personally think ink should be changed to cause disorientation among the marines, perhaps things like impaired movement and hazy vision. Of course, an increase in res cost might be needed.
Can you elaborate as to why you think so? The only (marginal) usefulness I've found with Aura in the late game is that it helps you spot marines trying to get a sneaky gate up.
Say there are 3 marines. You see one is low health, an easy kill. Instead of trying to kill a full health marine, go for the low health one. You kill him. Now there are 2 marines which have 1/3 less total damage output and that much easier to kill by subsequent aliens.
Language was off but now corrected. Don't just think before you type folks, make sure you read it afterwards too.
Sure.
It does a few things.
1. It gives you almost complete map awareness if the rest of your team also communicates marine locations. This allows you to call hits, picks, and crushes much easier.
2. It's the anti-lifeform trap and or pinch.
Most importantly:
3. The hardest thing about late game is engaging since the marines are tech'd to a level where your margin for error is much lower if you want to win the engagement. Aura basically auto-synchronizes your targets during attacks granted the higher lifeforms aren't stupid.
To me, the strongest combination is still Crag-Shade hive in either order. Once aliens understand how to engage properly, celerity really only gets you to where you are going faster... nothing else. Aura/regen takes an extra second to get there but is a much more effective pairing for pre, during, and post engagement.