ns2_shipyard

logan3

humans have built a base on a small clumpsy moon because its rich of diverse metals. it qualifies as an exellent place to build transport and battle type ships and interstelar port for new and far out colonies.

but they didn't know about the kahara caverns which this devious, brutal and dangerous alienrace calls home ..


The Moon has the capabilities to hold a ship in construction inside and outside the new dock, some craft facilitys, storage and living facilities ...
engineers inform that the crack where the kahara came in has be sealed allready ( information to be confirmed by supervising staff )



my aim is: to make it playable and enjoyable map, with characteristic layout, with 4 basic sections that look a little diffrent one from another


i would be very thakful for support, especialy criticism in every constructive form, since it's my first map ever.

my strong passion for mapping will hopefully be fueled even further by finishing this map with your help

i hope to learn a lot during this mapping project.

logan3

and here comes my first little overwief sketch
options:
-i want maby to place a portal between vessel and meetinghall
-2 sepperate rts could be in the middle of the map.

my oppinion is: its small, is it to small?

it's my 7. scetch i guess there have to be more

ps. how to post the picture directly into the discussion?

SamusDroid

You click the image button, but please put the images inside spoiler tags if you have a lot of them

The layout kinda looks like it could accidentally end up being too big, so be careful with that. I'd say you might want to look at threads for other maps to see how they ended up working, as I believe I've seen a similar layout to this before somewhere.

logan3

oki thx reedited

Mephilles

the layout looks solid from the first look but I am not sure if 8 RTs are a bit too few (most maps have 9-10)

logan3

shuttel weld and vessel (green) or only lasercut (yellow) could have an rt i'm adding the new pic in a min., thx for input i agree.
the middle are was too much of a transition area anyway.

logan3

logan3

humm i think i see a huge problem from one point of wiev: when you walk to an rt you often seem to have only one or two options once its built.
example: you walk from oasis to quarters where do you go? answer planning or walk back...
i might have to redraw it some more times and make it much more complex.
what do you think of this problem, i meen i dont feel the same in gravity or obseervation on descent when i come from dronbay..?

logan3

@SamusDroid humm, yep it kind of reminds me little of docking2 with the H in middle but still very different(4 techpoints/5 techpoints). i think most maps have a tech point in the middle and few have only 4 tech points(eclipse, veil) so jep its kind of exotic.

i guess i have to rely on your experiance on this one since in my eye it more seems to bee an issiue of the map that it ends up to small.

what i could expect what might make it to big is that the rts get too hard to hold in a small and simple map-> makes it bigger and bigger

in the scale i actualy see a marine team could siege planning fromthe inner carry corner and it would closely not be possible to siege tower from vessel

i know only one map with a teleport named eclipse. and its rearly used. teleports seem to bee a way that excludes siegemobility but not player moovement. a teleport from vessel to meeting would be fun but i dont know how practicable this can be.

logan3

after analizing this drawing some time it doesn't look nice any longer to me. but as a friend said: as long as you see what doesn't fit you can improve it.
it's good to have some input so soon.
thx for inputs i took some lessons from it. thx too for inputs from steamfriends through ts3.
i'll come up with new bether layout scratches on weddensday if all works well.

Mephilles

I learned some useful stuff while building docking2 (and still do). For example the smaller your map is, the faster it is. Normally people like playing on faster maps, especially in a 6v6 environment. That thing with the H in the middle just means that your map has 4 lanes instead of 3. I removed that from docking2 because it did not work out correctly due to the design of the rooms but that doesn't mean it won't work on your map.

Another official map that has 4 lanes is descent and it works competitively. Most people just don't know how to play it correctly.

Anyway in your case if lasercut, hull construction and shutelweld is designed correctly it will work very well, especially if your map is small. you can scout 2 lines from lasercut by listening and maybe you have a good LOS to hull construction and shutelweld.

though the best thing is if you have a layout you are satisfied with make it a greybox map and playtest it to sort out problems with the layout early on.

logan3

humm, real detailed feedback mephilles. grats.

you'r right docking 2 is real different. i was somhow not finding much similarity to any map i'v seen, exept maby that H ^^... but anyway later i thought that the cornered techpoints and the simple paths are more an important caracteristic to my first public layout...

i was not going to completle throw away the layout. i rework it.
i agree, early changes are easy to do. the later you do changes the more details you have to modify to get it on the old level again.

i 'm just afraid many roads give to few options in my first posted layout -> its to simple. this is my main reason to modify the layout.
i'll make some layouts with 5 techpoints too, see how it feels.

maby i add an alien cave part and/or i'll try find locations with immaginable content i could add.

it will take a little more time to make more complex layouts since i work by try and error, intuitively and analyze in a repeat loop .

it's not easy to understand a layout, even when it's simple. thx for help.

logan3

i made a graybox to show this overview to train grayboxing.
techpoint positions remind me a little jambi but the rest is different.

more overview's will fallow. but feel free to critisize it so i see whats wrong
just know that the transitionhallways between rooms need rework. (they are small and long.)

@SamusDroid you where right it got to big at first trys . i think the size fits now.(distance from marinestart to natural rt's is +- equal to the ones in veil)

BeigeAlert

logan3 wrote: »

@SamusDroid you where right it got to big at first trys . i think the size fits now.(distance from marinestart to natural rt's is +- equal to the ones in veil)

Remember though: veil is a 4 tech-point map. If you've got 5 tech points, that's still going to make your perimeter that much longer, leaving the middle of your map largely underplayed. That's one of the biggest problems I had with Temple. If you have all the valuable stuff (Resources, Tech points) on the outside of the map, with nothing in the middle of the map, people aren't going to use the middle much. Hub on Tram is different because it's a single room with lots of connectivity. Because of this map's scale, you're not going to be able to get a room in the center to be that valuable for both teams.

It's difficult to say judging exclusively from the minimap, but I'd say the map is too big and has waaaaaayyyy too many long lines of sight. Marines will dominate engagements, and aliens will be forced to just skirt around them and snipe RTs for the whole game. That could technically lead to "balance" but that's certainly not fun.

logan3

@BeigeAlert oki i'll make lots of changes and i deffenetly need to study ligne of sights on other maps,
this is kind of a thing thats still unclear in my mind.
i meen there's one small hub-like thing where you can't see players at the end of a hallway in this map, but there's much more to consider.

i'll walk around on other maps focussing on hides visionranges, distances between them, hides and sizes of rooms, i hope i see more clear then..

jep it is still miss-sized. i think the alien spawns are to close to the next techroom compared to marines for example.. need to resize all then xD
20% smaller seems ok, could leave out some connection hallways this way i'll see

i just learned from mephilles how i can work with a clock to check distances between rt's and hiverooms (mesured with "distance" command bevore) so atleast they fit.

you'r right about veil too, i should compare my creations to ressembling ones instead of compleetly different ones, thx

logan3

it could be 20% smaller and remove most of most hallways in addition, still would be little big xD

BeigeAlert

I should clarify one point: long lines of sight aren't the end of the world, and you certainly can have them, you just have to make double sure that you've got PLENTY of cover along the way. Most maps at this "greybox" stage tend to forget that and simply have really long, flat, rectangular hallways that marines can lock down easily because aliens simply have no cover to help their advance down the hallway, so their only option is to just barrel through there as fast as they can and hope for the best. Add some columns or ribs to the sides of the hallways to ensure aliens have somewhere to duck into quickly, or somewhere to ambush from, maybe something on the ceilings as well, but beware of creating camp spots for gorges.

logan3

i agree

thx for clarifing, sometimes images in my head differ from what's ment. especialy since my english is not so good xD. i'm swissgerman

anyway, nice to compare the rooms with ligns of sight as reference anyway, if only i had a printer and a wheel mesurer like those used on roads for maps .




got loads to modify on my grayboxing i will tell it in a spoiler so you all can see what i'm up to if you want

these are vague changes, my next aim is to analize maps with different approches..

..then i do a new grayboxing since i got recomanded not to use the extrude tool as much in my way at grayboxing. its not precise enough and i need precision to get a nice on grid grayboxing to base my map on.



planning is simply to big it will shrink.
robostorrage is kind of a strange and huge area where few strategic point remains since i remooved the rt. i just remove it i guess.
tower and meeting will move closer to hypergate controle nad robobooting move towards vessel
half of shortcut becomes a walkeble vent with boxes in it as a fun delaying thing. i'll see if it stands the test of time^^
crewquarters will shrink for sure, its huge.
noclone gets a killzone down the pit and 3 bridges comming together(was invisible)
some thin walkways wil get replaced or removed by less bottlenecklike passages maby

logan3

and big thank to caperp who walks around in my creations to discuss em.
he made an aim map called ns2_aim_pillars where skulkbots seem to use well placed pillars well enough to make it funny.

logan3

thx @BeigeAlert
i looked at a lot of rooms in a lot of maps and the most interesting ideas came from the cover idea.
i saw rooms seem not to be connected by hallways most of the time. they are kind of melt together with divert interesting playspaces that look like hallways sometimes xD.
looks like fun to do some.

it seems like often the cover distance variates from: more alienfriendly, more marinefriendly, more parasitefriendly, more alien charge friendly, more hide friendly... loopy corridors and vents come in too then..

i made a more flexible flat "grayboxing" so i can start do those playgrounds inbetween rooms and the rooms next to them at once with a floor and size reference.
also the dimensions are easier to fit with a flat grayboxing.

i tryed also to compare the layout of different maps considering connections, blocks and routes. i think my layout might be simple compared to other ones but it could work out i guess

ns2_shipyard:


ns2_jambi


ns2_descent

i learned a lot at those analyses but i still feel nooby. i'll try melting 3 gray rooms together to see if i can do it well allready.


reedit: dropbox immages didn't appear at this site as immages..

logan3

hi @Kalopsia sorry i wrote you a little much messages about an issue i have on all my maps even dho you where not here.
i still dont realy know whats happening so i would be realy glad if somone know's it.

REEDIT: the problem i have is only occuring if a map is hosted on a home pc.
i v never seen it occure on any map hosted by a server.
and even then it was only if vertical syncronisation (v-sync) was off.
i guess it's no problem so sry for bad use of time


here was my problem:

when i host a map i made, after a while i get "dropbacks" (laggs like the ones when short red plugs occure where you get warped back one or some steps)
it happens more or less quick(aprox 10 sec - 5 min) and once it starts it only gets worse..
it gets less bad with propper occlusion culling
i got the issue on all my mapps, on some comunity maps, on some comunity maps only in the readyroom but on some comunity maps it didn't happen.
official maps never ended in dropbacks when i wandered around in them. ???

i tryed to eliminate possible sources from one of my maps, but it didnt work. even if there where : no lights no noncolision no occlusioncully.. no double faces even if there's one flipped. in the end there where only probs and faces^^

lucky as i am i then changed what i should have changed a longe time ago for my own sake xD, i swiched the v-sync option from no v-sync to 3x v-sync. --result--> no more dropbacks O.o

so now i ask my self is it an issue since players usualy turn on v-sync.. but maby some turn it off

beware this is only supposition: without v-sinc i noticed that there are tyny spaces apearing betwen faces visible when i walk around i i suppose the issue can be linked to those "black holes" wich might show things behind the face... with 3xvsinv they dont appear ^^ so maby it gets easier for pc to calculate it..

logan3

i started to make a graybox two weeks ago and i aimed to make it playable to get a first closer look at my map.

the progress is stagnating right now. the reason is: i'm addicted to pc gaming and other activitys on the pc. right now i feel ready for other activitys afk and i'v got to grab the opportunity... mapping would drag me back to the pc.

for the future i dont know if i start gaming and mapping again sooner or later, i'v got to see if other activitys can satisfy me too.
i put online my gray12.level and some screenshot for curios people.

thx a lot for your help so far, maby i'll honor it with a map but maby i want to stay away from it..

great mapping comunity you have, and mapping is one of the best things pc can give me right now..

here's the level file
https://www.dropbox.com/s/erzm5y1laj1x4nc/gray12.level?dl=0

i dont know where to upload my pics since my free imageshack account expired.. it'll be dropbox links

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mwnsjfckbzha693/screenshots.png?dl=0

grats logan3

logan3

heyho i'm back maping
this tookme a while, i went to sc2 and wc3frozen after my gamebreak, just to find out that most fun comes from ns2 again )
i started mapping again few weeks ago but i didn't want to hurry with a post.
i'v seen you guys made a lot of great work.

i finished the gray of my shipyard approximately (there's still some unplayable corridors and concepts i need to correct if i want it testable) i'll call it the "jambilike" becose its obiusly a simpler jambylike layout that came out..(same t point positioning and many simmilar cornerpoints ressembling size)

jambilike graywith planning as marinestart and opposite techpoints as the alien starts

it made me feel strange to work on a jambi2-shipyard, thats why i started sketching new possible layouts.
thats where the skull layout appeared

skulllike layout and sketch with planing and hypergate controle as start locations (marines outer left aliens outer right).
i'm working on a gray right now searching roomconcepts to fill some of the gaps (distance between starts is like in sumit becose it looks like sumit if ou exchange an rt with a techpoint =P):

i still search roomconcepts hardly with different approaches.. here's 2 rooms i particularly like scetched in gray:

jetpack training:

and some kind of terminal:

i guess when the skull-gray is compleete i put both on the workshop, becose i still cant decide between the jambilike and the skullike layouts.

wich one would you favor, a skulllike layout(with two close techpoints and rt's) or a jambilike layout (i guess exept the layout there's not lot of jambi in it).