NS2:Combat My toughs about the behavior of the NS2 Community

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  • DaveodethDaveodeth Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Members
    I only tend to play on yo, but they've been pretty solid as far as servers go. Minus the shite lag that you get after a maps been on 10 hours of course.
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    edited November 2014
    I was told by a uwe member on the subnautica forums that they were communicating with flg. I asked because they had set the 270 patch and subnautica release on the same day as combat release. .....were they?

    Edit - found thread. Bottom of that thread link. Hugh's response to me.

    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/135624/31-october-hype/p1
  • gimmicgimmic Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183555Members
    edited November 2014
    I like to point out the poster thread as to relate UWE's capability. Reading through that thing makes it sound like a complete scam. So far, not one person had actually chimed in and said "Hey, I got mine!"
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    gimmic wrote: »
    I like to point out the poster thread as to relate UWE's capability. Reading through that thing makes it sound like a complete scam. So far, not one person had actually chimed in and said "Hey, I got mine!"

    I've always been a pretty vocal critic of UWE's marketing/PR strategy but to be fair UWE isn't really behind the Kickstarter prizes for the NS2WC, it was an event created by the community
  • BerendBerend netherlands Join Date: 2014-03-25 Member: 194955Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2014
    Maybe instead of publishing FLG's standalone combat mod that nobody wants to play UWE could've hired FLG developpers to fix ns2 engine which is still broken.
    What you should not do is whine about costumers being unhappy with the product, wether it's a false sense of entitlement or not is beside the point.
    UWE published it so they are making money off of a rip off, and i personally actually feel bad for FLG because it's sad that they put work into a project that is such a failure.
    They would've been better off working for UWE on ns2 engine.
    UWE appear to have no shame, you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that publishing ns2:Combat as a standalone was a terrible idea.
    My advice to FLG, keep working on your own game and sever ties with UWE, they don't deserve it.
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Members
    edited November 2014
    UWE published it so they are making money off of a rip off

    considering how its sold I doubt this very much, very very much.
  • BerendBerend netherlands Join Date: 2014-03-25 Member: 194955Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    but they are publishing so the intent was to make money of it, that was my point.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    I have no issue with people bashing combat as a game, that is their individual choice.

    My problem is with people who are bashing Faultline Games and down voting the game for something that is entirely UWE's fault.

    UWE have a history of not finishing what they started/not following a job through to completion. This has shone through completely in their half-assed attempt at publishing.

    I love and respect the work of UWE, but you have to admit their track record is terrible.

    NS was a mod that was never finished, always changing and ultimately left at a point where it was quite a mess.

    But they moved on and we all moved on with them for this great idea, a standalone version of NS2, this is where they would sort out everything that they had left in a messed up state in NS right?

    Wrong.

    NS2 was released in an unfinished state, with lots of problems in both the gameplay and the engine. But that's ok, because they will be supporting and fixing it for a long time after release right?

    Wrong.

    There was a period of a few months after release where some of the UWE team worked on NS2, but most of the the updates and changes came from one or two UWE staff and a large portion of the community. So they put together the CDT, while UWE headed off onto it nexts project...

    Then UWE had this great idea to become a publisher. They surely would get that right, I mean, they have all this marketing knowledge now, and we all know the job of a publisher is very simple, market the game, distribute the game, and make sure it sells well.

    Except, they didn't, UWE did none of the traditional publisher work, they didn't market or distribute the game.

    Sure they got it on steam, but that's it.

    Essentially, UWE sold FLG a publisher deal, and instead gave them a liscensing deal, we'll charge you for using our IP, because that is all UWE have given FLG.

    And yet, everyone attacks FLG and Combat for the shambles, when the blame needs to be laid firmly at the feet of UWE.

    UWE are not supporting the engine, UWE are not supporting combat, UWE aren't even working on NS2, and haven't been since about 6 months after release.

    This is what infuriates me. If you have an issue with the combat release, with the price you have to pay, and they way the launch was handled, you have to blame the publisher.

    If the game is crap, you blame the devloper. EA has taken a hit as a publisher and been bashed time and time again for it's decisions, and yet UWE seem to be untouchable, despite being a far worse publisher than EA.

    It's one thing to like the idea of being a publisher, but publishing is a seriously important job, and is another in a long list of projects that UWE have failed with.

    I will continue to back UWE in their future projects, and I hope one day they release a game that is complete at launch, (not talking early access, but the proper launch date).

    I would also advise UWE to seriously forget about becoming a publisher, unless they learn that a publisher takes on the responsibility for everything that isn't making the game itself, something which they did not do in this case.

    I mean, they released an update and DLC for NS2, as well as the earliest access release of Subnautica, on the day their first published release came out, even EA don't make screw ups that big...

    I hope people don't take this as being overly negative, as I say, I respect UWE for all they have achieved, but they have to take the blame fair and square for the whole combat fiasco, it was their idea, and they didn't follow it through properly to completion, as is a common theme for their projects to date.

    If you think combat is crap in it's own right, blame FLG, but if you think it's not worth the money, should have been a mod, or should have had bigger discounts for NS2 players etc, you should take those complaints to UWE, and leave them off the combat pages.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    The fact that UWE released an update for NS2 the same date, should be of no consequence. A brand new game is almost always going to be more appealing to a consumer than an update. Moreover, a consumer that stumbles upon the NS2 update, and starts researching wtf NS2 is, will VERY likely stumble upon NS2:Combat as well. So do not make the mistake of thinking that any publicity that NS2 gets, is stolen or lost in NS2:C.

    Given that, a consumer now has a choice, NS2 or Combat (ignoring both and neither for the sake of the argument). If Combat cannot compete with a simple ass update - then how the duck do you expect combat to compete with titles like CS:GO, Quake Live, CoD, UT that also all have halloween updates and sales? Are we going to blame Epic and Activision for ruining NS2:Combat? The notion is ridiculous.

    P.S. Blizzards Overwatch was just announced, so if NS2:C wasn't already dead, this will be the nail in the coffin anyway. RIP.
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Members
    Berend wrote: »
    but they are publishing so the intent was to make money of it, that was my point.

    Kind of the point of almost every business ever......
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    Daveodeth wrote: »
    Berend wrote: »
    but they are publishing so the intent was to make money of it, that was my point.

    Kind of the point of almost every business ever......
    Considering the amount of NS2 assets/code that are in Combat I'd say it's only fair.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    @SantaClaws‌ - You mis-understand, I am not saying the updates caused combat to be unsuccessful, I am saying UWE failed in the most basic aspects of publishing, as a publisher, with Combat. The update release was just an additional "see how much we don't care about you and the game" kick in the face, personalised for FLG.

    As a prominent modder of NS2, I would be lying if I didn't admit to having had a word or two with UWE about monetising mods. My criticism of UWE as a publisher is likely to end any plans for getting my mods published with them, but at the same time, from a developers perspective, and seeing what has happened with FLG, I would admit to being very wary about the prospect of taking up any such offer now anyway.

    I am still going to buy all UWE games, as they always have great aspects, but my expectations of UWE products is always reasonable, they tend to deliver what I expect. However, for me, their performance as a publisher was way below their normal standard and even I'd be worried about purchasing a game in the future they are just a publisher of.

    If I would hesitate to buy a UWE published game, I would also hesitate to get published by them, despite the great opportunity, they have effectively put a massive hole in the future of FLG as a development team, and I am not sure if I suffered that as a single dev, I'd have the ability or resources to move onto future projects.

    For me, the biggest and most important thing is that the publishing failure of UWE, does not destroy the development dream of FLG. That would be a terrible outcome, if UWE destroyed a very promising game dev team because of the publishing failures that have taken place.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2014
    Wasn't the outcome pretty obvious from the start? The whole idea is ridiculous, I mean cmon. Standalone of a mod of an older game that has fluctuated down to 300-600 players. Even with new weapons and game modes, it basically looks the same and has the same performance as NS2. 5 maps. 15 bucks.
    Nice business plan. (I know its not about the money, but you still want people to play your game and have it live a while and not just a couple of weeks?)
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Soul_Rider‌ What would you have done different from UWE's perspective exactly? I don't think you've made that quite clear.
  • SebSeb Melbourne, AU Join Date: 2013-04-01 Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
    @Soul_Rider‌ Yes of course, UWE has a part to play in this pretty horrible launch of a game, but FLG are not completely without fault here either in my opinion. They made a game that is nowhere near a polished, perfect game like you are suggesting. I think that if it was interesting, and had enough content to justify the $15 or maybe even real matchmaking you would be seeing a lot more people playing the game. You have to remember that a lot of people were turned away from the game after initially trying it out.

    I do agree with you 100% about UWE. Pretty lackluster effort on their part.
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Members
    edited November 2014
    Not just different, but that would have made money.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Since @Soul_Rider isn't responding, I'll post the alternatives that I see.
      1) Release NS2:C on another date. 2) Release NS2 b270 content patch on another date 3) Pour in a ton of money to promote NS2:C more than they already had.

    We can rule out 2), because Halloween is NS1 and NS2's anniversary. It's pretty much tradition at this point that UWE celebrates that. Moreover, it would be absolutely foolish for UWE not to take advantage of Steam's Halloween sale.

    We can rule out 3), because why not spend that money on promoting NS2 or Subnautica which is where UWE are putting most of their stakes.

    That leaves 1). So the question remains; on which date?

    Case for Halloween:
      * Steam holds their annual Halloween sale, you automatically have more eyeballs than usual. - Of course this would hold true on any holiday sale. * The NS scene is celebrating their anniversary, why not release the next title in the franchise on that day? + Any publicity the NS scene gets as a whole, is publicity that NS2:Combat gets.

    You could argue that maybe they should have waited for the steam christmas sale before release. But I'd maintain that we would see similar results, as UWE are likely going to issue a sale for NS2 on that as well.
    The only major difference being of course, that FLG would have more time developing - but keep in mind: This Costs Money.

    Case for a random date outside big steam sales:
      * You don't have to compete as hard for the eyeballs - Of course you have less total eyeballs
  • gimmicgimmic Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183555Members
    edited November 2014
    Roobubba wrote: »
    The player count is low mostly due to the lack of promotion, here and wider outside the community, and also partly due to the overly critical reviews, many of which are not actually complaints about the game at all, but complaints that it isn't a dlc/mod etc etc.

    I keep reading this weird dismissal of valid criticism. There's a reason those reviews are popular, and to claim they're not complaints about the game is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Yes, if you choose to ignore all the parts that are wrong about a game, of course it's a great game!

    Defining what context we're allowed to review a game around defeats the point of an honest review.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    There are balance issues, and some of the criticism is entirely valid. I'm not a combat fan boy, but I am an optimist and maybe when it comes to ns I'm a romantic, too.

    Both you and Sebb disagreeing with my previous comment is nothing short of ridiculous.
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Members
    edited November 2014
    Roobubba wrote: »
    The player count is low mostly due to the lack of promotion, here and wider outside the community, and also partly due to the overly critical reviews, many of which are not actually complaints about the game at all, but complaints that it isn't a dlc/mod etc etc.

    It's low because people don't want to play it.

    Edit: I don't just mean the wider audience, the folks who bought it are not playing it.

    http://steamcharts.com/app/310110
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'm not sure what more promotion could've been done without making significant investments.

    I've seen NS2:combat featured on steam, it was posted on reddit, it was posted on this site, and lots of youtubers reviewed it, including big names like Total Biscuit, there was a twitch 96 hour stream, there are articles/blogs..
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    524 of 633 people found gimmic's review helpful. I think it's funny that you give a negative review and not recommend the game, yet you continue to play it (34 hrs so far). Hmmm wonder why nobody else has bought it to help populate those servers w/ you... If it's like you've been tricked into purchasing the same game again, why haven't those 34 hrs been in ns2?

    I'm reading all these complaints and things, people saying they're valid reasons... but being butthurt is not a valid enough reason in my opinion.

    =(( ;))
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    I never said the game was perfect, to quote myself:
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    I have no issue with people bashing combat as a game, that is their individual choice.
    ...
    If you think combat is crap in it's own right, blame FLG,

    I think the actual game has problems, but I think they can make it good. I can't believe a community that is so forgiving to UWE and their "Fall 2009's" is so hostile to a new young development team being given a break by UWE.

    I would have thought FLG deserved the same level of respect afforded to Charlie, this was his idea, his dream, but the community has been so hostile towards them for things that are not their fault.

    As for would should UWE have done. That is simple, advertise and promote. That is what a publisher does. A publisher works the same in the games industry as it does in the book industry as it does in any industry. Someone creates something and the publisher is responsible for getting it sold.

    If UWE say they were not publishing, they were just charging for their IP and assets, then fair enough, but they didn't even make a forum post/steam news update about the release of Combat. How many people who own NS2 even now NS2 combat is available as a standalone?

    Not many read the forums, and as there has been no press coverage of note, you can bet a fair few of them could have at least been notified through a very simple news post.

    I have to say that this is entirely my opinion, I assume there was a lot of support being provided in private that we are completely unaware of, but publicly it seems very much like UWE said, hey, we've had this idea, and set it in motion.

    I understand UWE is a fairly unstructured company like valve, but even so, i just would like to have seen more public support from UWE.
  • gimmicgimmic Join Date: 2013-03-02 Member: 183555Members
    2cough wrote: »
    524 of 633 people found gimmic's review helpful. I think it's funny that you give a negative review and not recommend the game, yet you continue to play it (34 hrs so far). Hmmm wonder why nobody else has bought it to help populate those servers w/ you... If it's like you've been tricked into purchasing the same game again, why haven't those 34 hrs been in ns2?

    I'm reading all these complaints and things, people saying they're valid reasons... but being butthurt is not a valid enough reason in my opinion.

    =(( ;))

    I never purchased this game, and I wouldn't have. I was given a copy. I do enjoy NS2 Combat, I enjoyed it as a mod. It was great to get in and warm up a bit, or as a break from real NS2. Even if the game was free and obtainable at the price point I lucked out on I would still review it in the same way. The price is simply one small factor in a number of issues.

    You act as if something found to be entertaining can't be criticised. I don't see where 'being butthurt' comes into play at all, that's just an ad hominem attack on the person rather than on the points of discussion.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    As for would should UWE have done. That is simple, advertise and promote. That is what a publisher does. A publisher works the same in the games industry as it does in the book industry as it does in any industry. Someone creates something and the publisher is responsible for getting it sold.

    If UWE say they were not publishing, they were just charging for their IP and assets, then fair enough, but they didn't even make a forum post/steam news update about the release of Combat.
    http://unknownworlds.com/ns2/ns2-combat-release-date-announced/
    Rock-Paper-Shotgun article FOUND ON STEAM NEWS
    When I ask you what you would do different exactly - I expect more depth and substance than that. Where should they have advertised and promoted other than where they already did.
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    How many people who own NS2 even now NS2 combat is available as a standalone?

    Not many read the forums, and as there has been no press coverage of note, you can bet a fair few of them could have at least been notified through a very simple news post.
    This is just speculations. I would like to see some evidence supporting this claim.
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    edited November 2014
    why the negativity towards uwe? i dont really understand it at all. Sure ns2 isnt perfect but they worked long and hard on it over the past few years improving it and turning it into a good game. Its only to be expected that at some point a developer has to decide to stop working on older games and focus on something new, If ns2 had made millions for uwe then i could understand the player base wanting them to continue working on it until people no longer want to play it like dayz for example. But it didnt make millions and uwe have to think about whats next to keep there studio alive and thats a new game. I doubt you can wring anymore money out of ns2. im actually amazed that the cdt was created and that they are dedicated enough to continue working on ns2 for free for the fans. That doesnt happen with most games.
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