A Newcomer with some feedback

Zoltan_a

Hello,

Well you look like you are on the right way to make an excellent game, so please accept all my encouragements!

Before I forget, this the link with the logs of my first crash : https://dropbox.com/sh/jewsd4u2qgi62nn/AADf8Ki8k20uIbL5w-dF3bm-a?dl=0

It would be good that you have some sort of easier way to submit crash logs than using a third party repository, but for the moment it will do.


So while I am there i will take that opportunity to share my feelings and wishes on this early stage with Subnautica :

- The immersion (that was easy) in the environment is great, the sound effects are helping much in that matter, the visual are good too and with many details but more variety would be nice to have, also I would prefer a darker underwater lighting but I expect I am one of the rare.

- I first decided to go for the option that included food & water parameter, but after some time it started to annoy me, I understand the survival aspect but in this case its hurting the game-play, the oxygen management is well balanced, as for the health recovery it is a bit too easy for me, having some sort of requirement to go receive some treatments from a medical station (in Pod, Sub, base) would increase a bit the challenge.

- About the looting/crafting, the last update made it better but still for me the progression is a bit too easy, I would gladly welcome a wider range of crafting, using improvements of the craft would probably help, some example in my mind right now;

a- as you already have the temperature in game i suppose you already planned on different aquatic gears that allow the diver to reach deeper (colder) waters safely, could also have a version with chain-mail like the one used to protect a bit more the diver from shark bites, it would also be nice to have the ballast in the suit and not having to hold that air pouch in hand

b- having more edible creatures that crawl on the sand of the ocean easily grabbed by hand and less easy to catch fish by hands, the you could have a variety of spear-guns, tazer-spear, underware traps, etc. would make hunt more interesting and also add a way to repel some bigger creatures.

c- More variants/upgrades on the submarines, with cockpits that have better visibility, sonar device, catching arm or tractor beam, a more complex damage model (engine, hull, glass, o2 tank, energy leak) with more complex repair procedure.


- About general game-play elements that would be great to improve;

a- The weight of the submarines is strange, it's way too easy at the moment to be pushed in a corner by one of the medium creatures and unable to do anything, it's like the propulsion have no effect on the that creatures, I would also love to see that "sharks" roaming the kelp area have a more fluid animation, at the moment they are cool but when turning back they are a bit to rigid, ha and like everybody I love that they hoard scrap metal :-)

b- I hope that there at least a bit more lore & story planned for the definitive release, having some intelligent species to interact with would add a lot


i will hold there it's already a lot to take, don't get me wrong this game is very promising and I like it much already I just hope to enjoy it for along time ;-)

Thanks

Best Regards

Zoltan

Seldkam

I couldn't read all of it, but I agree most of the things I did read (about the first half) especially the progression being too easy-- HOWEVER, realize that a lot of the predators that are in the game that we can mainly ignore with 0 problem will be worked on to be much more intimidating

Anyways, it seems a lot of the things we have (as in, the EA testers) to say about the game right now will simply be fixed with more content and things to do, at least imo

Besides, changing things before the main amount of content has been introduced may require the devs to go back and change it all over again

Zourin

The current progression is mostly early-game mechanics, and isn't supposed to last for more than a couple hours before you're moving off the shallows, so it's going to 'feel' fast when that is all the existing gameplay. Kinda like saying the first full level of a game is too easy when it's all that's there.

There needs to be a large amount of resources because that's generally all you get, ever. It needs to supply not only all of the 'early game' but if the regions are to have any relevance later in the game (aka, good game design), even more material for ongoing play. So, yeah, I don't see a reason to complain that the bootstrap regions are fairly easy with a bit of work and experience.

In regards to hostile creatures, it's good that they aren't overbearing. The environment itself is a rather persistent ticking bomb waiting to kill you at all times. SN feels a bit more relaxed in letting the player kill themselves rather than having a plethora of roaming death-traps that make entire areas impassable. It's not a shooter game (which has been a strong point of UWE's past projects), so there's a very good reason the only truly offensive weapon you have in your arsenal is a knife and not a gun. There's a gun, but it's not a kill weapon.

As long as the enemies are enough to hazard a player without being more dangerous than getting lost or ignoring needs, I'd say that's a good balance to keep. When you're 200m below the surface, there is no 'escape', so anything lethal is just trolling the player (especially if they can't see it coming). I'd like SN to not get into a done-and-dead 'war of escalation' with the wildlife, so much as clever manipulations and workarounds. It's much more tense when you KNOW you don't have any tools to simply remove a problem, so the game becomes a matter of coerced coexistance.

Zoltan_a

As I am just getting on board i have no idea about the big picture, so at the moment I don't have much idea how far this is going, I am just not getting used to the plethora of sandbox survival games available that provide crafting/construction/survival but fail to provide deeper long term gameplay, and Subnautica in this stage is promising and I just hope this will include a rich world with a complete experience, hope they got the budget to go there.

So yes I understand this is early development, but so many at the moment are not going much further than that, I just wish this will not be the case.

I surely don't want the programmers to spend time on the futile, they have a better understanding than me where they are going, so my ideas are just that nothing more than an expression of hope :-)

I agree Zourin, I also do not want it to end like a basic shooter, improving the sneaky & clever aspect is what I would prefer.

Best Regards

Zoltan

aeroripper

Zoltan, I recommend you take a read on the design and production trellos they have for this game to get a better idea of what's potentially coming. Here's the links:

https://trello.com/b/FQyYBk1n/subnautica-design-http-tinyurl-com-sndesigntrello

https://trello.com/b/yxoJrFgP/subnautica

As for long term goals, I particularly like this design card:

https://trello.com/c/4a3bmgGz/196-progression-constraints

Zourin

At least UWE has a good reputation for finishing what they start, so I'm not sweating the EA portion.

I just hope attention is given to good progression in survival play:

1. Starter Survival - Scavenging, scraping, cobbling things together, and getting a feel for the lay of the land (sea?)
2. Establishment - 'base building', reduction of the critical survival needs (eg, food), improved access to Starter Survival materials, limited access to QoL materials
3. Quality of Life - Full foothold of basic needs and resources. Advanced resources required for 'convenience and luxury' items (both functional and non), tech prep for advanced play.
4. Advanced Play - Accessing new/advanced resources not critical to survival, new survival mechanics to learn
5. Endgame - Reliance on advanced techniques and technologies which displace 1-3 gameplay mechanics. Difficult to engage in, but not wholly unfair.

In Minecraft terms:
1. Starter Survival - punch wood, etc.
2. Establishment - Build a house, bed, and food supply (farm/fishing rod)
3. QoL - Mines, animal farms, tree farms, defenses, decorations/amenities/novelties, maps
4. Deep/extensive mines, Redstone, Nether access, Alchemy, Enchantments
5. The End.

In Don't Starve
1. Scrounge and not die
2. Base camp and securing food stock for first winter
3. Iceboxes, drying racks, advanced farms, better equipment, bee boxes
4. Insanity resources, Boss encounters, increased Hound attacks, 'best equipment'
5. Giant hunting, Caves, Campaign/Challenge modes

For comparison, Space Engineers stops at 2, with an excessively technical 3, and ends up as little more than a creativity tool with no further progression.

Zoltan_a

Hi,

Thanks for the links Aeroripper, they are quiet useful to improve my awareness of the goals.


Yes Zourin, but the problem I have with most survival only games is that they are too repetitive and lack goals, even more for a single-player experience.

Causes ? well for my own person it is :

- The durability of the items is sometimes too low.
- Crafting because you can is pointless, craft it all and then what ?
- Cycle day/night is short and you fight the gauges by seeking resources consumed too fast
- Missing an interesting adventure plot, discovery alone is nice but fall short.
- Interactions with NPC's is often limited to shoot & loot or buy/sell only.

One recent game that somewhat succeeded to mix a bit of the two is "this war of mine", you have indeed to loot & craft, but that's not it, there is a deepness that add an immersion in the situation. This kind with a developed adventure scenario would be great.

Lets be wild, dream of Mass effect sandbox with survival underwater :-)

best regards

Zoltan

Seldkam

Just swap power with creatures and ill be happy... or have them be equally important lol

Zourin

Zoltan_a wrote: »

Hi,

Yes Zourin, but the problem I have with most survival only games is that they are too repetitive and lack goals, even more for a single-player experience.

I won't disagree. There have been a lot of failed survival clones of late that has turned the kiddie pool a deeper shade of yellow than I'd like. Most successful survival games are mostly about player ambition (chiselling out a comfortable life) rather than having a clear and focused goal. UWE's declared direction is player-oriented, pure sandbox more along the lines of Minecraft or Don't Starve's "optional" endgame challenges/story endings.

Space Engineers and 7 Days to Die, both excellent "Good-as-1.0" EA games I recommend, don't have things like scaling advancement/challenge. They are, as you put it, "Once I have everything, then what?" games. They're still seeing regular updates, so there's still hope there will be a point to all the space mining and zombie slaying, but it's fair to say that SN has its ambitions.

There's a lot of things that will just take a lot of time and hard work to throw in. They're working in stages. All we have now is the scavenging phase and glimpes of the seabase/establishment phase that they've only just begun. It's still up to us to pressure them for conveniences like pressurized air tank upgrades, Submarine decals, and seamoth saddlebags while the feature factory is still turned on, and i'm sure they're always around looking for ideas, inspirations, or the odd shortcut to doing something easier that the player-base enjoys.

And "Devs". Make note: Seamoth Saddlebags. Don't make me write an essay.

Soul_Rider

Zourin wrote: »

And "Devs". Make note: Seamoth Saddlebags. Don't make me write an essay.

No essay needed, the necessity is obvious