PUT THE OXYGEN WARNING BACK INTO HARDCORE MODE

Loppysaurusrex

It is a pointless and artificial difficulty mechanic that is ridiculous, the point of hardcore it REALISM, not 3HARD5ME.

It is not at all hard to imagine an auditory system that warns the user of oxygen levels, and it perfectly realistic and does not break immersion.

I have died 3 times due to this on hardcore, one of which was while I was building my base (no hatch).

PUT. IT. BACK.

Jackalope

I actually liked the original audio ques. The breathing sounds got louder and more labored as the O2 in the tank decreased.
Super immersive, this is actually what happens on a low tank of air while SCUBA diving IRL. Running out of air was like actually drowning... not quietly blacking out.

I think this would fit perfectly in hardcore mode, though i would like this feature in standard survival too.

Loppysaurusrex

Jackalope wrote: »

I actually liked the original audio ques. The breathing sounds got louder and more labored as the O2 in the tank decreased.
Super immersive, this is actually what happens on a low tank of air while SCUBA diving IRL. Running out of air was like actually drowning... not quietly blacking out.

I think this would fit perfectly in hardcore mode, though i would like this feature in standard survival too.

What the **** man why would they take that out that's perfect.

Much better than building a base at 300m down with no hatch and your vision just dissappears like the diver is like "oh yea im out of oxygen now time to die, sucks that i didn't notice"

2cough

Well... in most games, the more the difficulty increases, the more responsibility falls on the player to be more observant. Why would you want to be baby-sat in a mode called "hardcore?" It's in early development, not as though things cant be changed and tweaked, maybe you'll get the best of both suggestions here.

MalkContent

I think the game should have a list of modifiers to check in/scale with sliders. Perma death is one thing but losing sensible intel while you got other fancy stuff like a hud is another.
As for the "harder to breathe" part: why would it become harder to breathe? You got an oxygen tank that supplies you with a constant stream of the stuff until it eventually is just empty. Not like the oxygen content of the supplied gas drops or you have to suck harder on the mouthpiece.

Grmlz

I cant even save the game anymore in HC mode.
I assume thats a bug, would be weird if you have to start a new game every day when you want to play HC.

En9a9e

Its potentially a tricky thing (this being set in a futuristic sci-fi universe with AI voice overs in your pod, subs and base) since its very plausible that the AI could be integrated into your helmet/mask. So if you are going to have a hardcore mode, you have to cut back on that to a larger rather than lesser extent I think...as AI warnings and messages tend to easily engender a hand holding feel that would not be welcome for players wanting a HC mode experience. Imo HC must be hard but not necessarily unreasonable, perhaps some things are only indicated when they have reached dire or critical levels in this case - such as only giving the 10 second warning. I'm not sure HC should be striving for realism per say as that is usually very subjective in a sci-fi game.

@Grmlz HC very specifically states it features perma-death. Perma-death means no saves, otherwise it wouldn't be permanent. I like that it is part of HC personally. I saw another person bring this up on the F8 report list and they were IRRATE that saving was removed. I kept wanting to post the e-surance "That's not how it works!" response, especially after they were so infuriated they posted a second time re-iterating their disgust over the "problem".

Loppysaurusrex

En9a9e wrote: »

Its potentially a tricky thing (this being set in a futuristic sci-fi universe with AI voice overs in your pod, subs and base) since its very plausible that the AI could be integrated into your helmet/mask. So if you are going to have a hardcore mode, you have to cut back on that to a larger rather than lesser extent I think...as AI warnings and messages tend to easily engender a hand holding feel that would not be welcome for players wanting a HC mode experience. Imo HC must be hard but not necessarily unreasonable, perhaps some things are only indicated when they have reached dire or critical levels in this case - such as only giving the 10 second warning. I'm not sure HC should be striving for realism per say as that is usually very subjective in a sci-fi game.

@Grmlz HC very specifically states it features perma-death. Perma-death means no saves, otherwise it wouldn't be permanent. I like that it is part of HC personally. I saw another person bring this up on the F8 report list and they were IRRATE that saving was removed. I kept wanting to post the e-surance "That's not how it works!" response, especially after they were so infuriated they posted a second time re-iterating their disgust over the "problem".

What you can't save either now?

what is this? Barbarianism?

So having the character go back to his base, save the game and wanting to pick it up later is wrong? I'm wrong to want that?

I have no idea what you're going for, but they could just have it to where when you die, it wipes the save, it cannot be that hard to code for.

En9a9e

yes 1 save is fine, was tired and not accounting for the continuation of a session. What I meant was that you shouldn't be able to go back to a save when you die, otherwise it wouldn't be perma-death. I messed up in the logic of arguing against having any save game at all in HC.

Jackalope

MalkContent wrote: »

As for the "harder to breathe" part: why would it become harder to breathe? You got an oxygen tank that supplies you with a constant stream of the stuff until it eventually is just empty. Not like the oxygen content of the supplied gas drops or you have to suck harder on the mouthpiece.

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but an air tank does get noticeably harded to breath from when it is near empty. A diver breaths from a compressed cylinder of air. When a tank is full the air practically fills your lungs for you, but as air is pulled from the tank the pressure inside decreases, this lessens the force at which air enters your lungs, up unto the point where there is one atmosphere of pressure left in the tank. At which point you would be fighting against the vacuum inside the tank to draw a breath from it, which would be very difficult and unpleasant.

Ive used SCUBA equipment, and i can tell you there is a noticeable difference between pulling from a full tank versus one that is near empty. Unless the tanks in Subnautica decrease in size as they are depleted, they would behave the same way. You can argue with me, but you cant argue with Boyle's Gas Law.

MalkContent

Nah, I just thought it worked differently. As in "compressed air inside tank, output regulated by valve depending on pressure". As for when negative pressure hits, I thought tanks would compensate with collapsing parts.

Jackalope

Well that's how the setups i'm familiar with work. If there was a contractible rubber bladder inside the air tank or something maybe it could be used to maintain a uniform pressure. But who knows how the tanks would work in Subnautica, its just a video game

My real point is that if the breathing sound got slightly louder as the tank emptied, it could be a subtle clue to players that their air was low without the need for constant voice reminders.

But I have full faith in the Devs to make a great game regardless of tank mechanics. Even though its still in early alpha the game has a lot of really cool features and I can't wait to see how it turns out when they are done. I think that's something everyone can agree on.

simu

The strange thing is that Scuba equipment is better than Subnauticas tank - as I remember a Scuba tank holds at least 10 ltr. of air at 200 bar, allowing for 30 Minutes or more of diving, not only 30 Seconds as in Subnautica - maybe different liquid physics or 'air' components in Subnauticas World.

I would also prefer the breathing sound clue instead of the computer voice - would be much more realistic, despite the lack of feeling the breathing difficulty, but also more dangerous.

Jackalope

Yeah it's kinda funny isn't it. But the short dive times are there for game play reasons. I like how tense it can get trying to swim out a cave with low air.

simu

agreed, it probably would 'break' the game if one could stay 30 minutes or so underwater. And one reason for having a Seamoth [:-)

Grmlz

En9a9e wrote: »

@Grmlz HC very specifically states it features perma-death. Perma-death means no saves, otherwise it wouldn't be permanent. I like that it is part of HC personally. I saw another person bring this up on the F8 report list and they were IRRATE that saving was removed. I kept wanting to post the e-surance "That's not how it works!" response, especially after they were so infuriated they posted a second time re-iterating their disgust over the "problem".

Yes of course you should not be able to load AFTER you died.
But if the game does not save at all you have to start from the beginning every day.

I play Diablo HC as well, and i dont have to start a new caracter every day.

En9a9e

Grmlz wrote: »

Yes of course you should not be able to load AFTER you died.
But if the game does not save at all you have to start from the beginning every day.
I play Diablo HC as well, and i dont have to start a new caracter every day.

Yep, I noted my faux pas on this earlier... I confused the problem of not being able to save at all for session continuation with the need for dis-allowing the load of a save after death in HC. My apologies for implying your position didn't make sense when I was the one with the logic error.

Flayra

It's funny, you're the first person to give any feedback on this!

The reason I took it out is because for a short time last week, O2 warnings stopped working. I was playtesting during this time, and I found that it was actually really cool to have to watch your air while you were diving. I loved the extra challenge and excitement.

I'll be looking to see what other people say about this as well before making any changes.

MycroftCanadaNS

Personally, I think it's far more important to have a save game feature. Here we go again having to fight for a save game feature.

Really Devs? If you are looking for a way to implement the save game feature for hardcore, only have the game save when they exit the game.

warbrand2

I personally think that the O2 warning should STAY OUT OF HARDCORE. To many games have a hardcore mode that is only hardcore in the fact that you die and the game is over. The rest of the features still baby the player. Personally think hardcore should have the following.

1. more agressive hostile creature... well not out right, they will be more likely to swim closer to the player and there for more likely to attack.

2. more punishing damage, getting bitten while in salt water, is not a good thing and there should be medical items anyway. (game needs medical items, and bleed out for normal and hardcore.)

Jackalope

I'm pretty sure the lack of saving in hardcore mode just a bug in. That would be pretty unreasonable to design hardcore mode to be played in one marathon session. I'd bet it'll be fixed in the next patch.

While you wait you can call it Ironman Mode. Only for the most Unreasonably Hardcore Players!

MycroftCanadaNS

Jackalope wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the lack of saving in hardcore mode just a bug in. That would be pretty unreasonable to design hardcore mode to be played in one marathon session. I'd bet it'll be fixed in the next patch.

While you wait you can call it Ironman Mode. Only for the most Unreasonably Hardcore Players!

Yeah I know, just messing with the devs.

strask

Flayra wrote: »

It's funny, you're the first person to give any feedback on this!

I think you weren't watching the steam forums too carefully...
http://steamcommunity.com/app/264710/discussions/0/617330227197170840/
http://steamcommunity.com/app/264710/discussions/0/617330406649971702/
http://steamcommunity.com/app/264710/discussions/0/617330406650595673/

Flayra wrote: »

The reason I took it out is because for a short time last week, O2 warnings stopped working. I was playtesting during this time, and I found that it was actually really cool to have to watch your air while you were diving. I loved the extra challenge and excitement.

The problem for me with this, is that the game is so beautiful. I want to be able to appreciate my surroundings and observe the details while playing, and lack of O2 warnings (or even insufficient O2 warnings, like the 30-second thing replacing the old and better 50% thing) means I have to spend a huge amount of my concentration on watching the little bar graph in the corner rather than the environment I'm in.

Personally, I don't actually NEED a hardcore mode to exist at all, as I have plenty of willpower to simply re-start my game if I die. There is a nice cosmetic feeling when there is a real game-over kind of screen, but respawn-and-quit is functionally just as good. So I can continue to play in standard mode and have whatever O2 warnings exist.

But I think that there are a lot of different opinions on what "hardcore" means, and trying to lump them all together in a single play mode decision may be a mistake. Fine for now, but a mistake long-term. I think KSP got it exactly right with the recent difficulty level additions... several pre-sets to provide a standard framework, but sliders and checkboxes for all the options so people can customize.

simu

I am getting used to the 'new warning' and must say that I'm starting to like it. A bit more challenging, more fun. With the "50%" warning you could always go till you got the warning and you would almost always have enough time to return...

Racer1

If the bar would change color/flash once it reached 50%, that could work as well.

strask

simu wrote: »

With the "50%" warning you could always go till you got the warning and you would almost always have enough time to return...

Isn't that the whole POINT to a warning system? Why have a "warning" that triggers too late to do anything about it?

simu

why? because it is part of the game, because some of us like the "danger",
or why have an oxygen limitation at all? Why have aggressive creatures?

(and it isn't necessarily too late, just depends on how it is managed)

Jackalope

What if there was an advanced chip for the dive computer that allowed a user to set how often they received air warnings? Maybe you could choose between a voice warning or some type of chime. Seems like that'd solve everyone's issues with the air system.

More options are always a good thing... as long as they don't require an unreasonable amount of work

Zourin

There's no reason to take the O2 warnings out of hardcore mode. The challenge of hardcore mode is to take the same tools from Survival and play in such a way as to not die. It's a cheap move to remove features that, by all rights, should still exist in both (if not definitely exist in hardcore mode for the warning it's supposed to emulate)