Shotguns - Are They Worth The Price?

KaMiKaZe1KaMiKaZe1 Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9196Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I think so.</div> If you don't like stories, you can skip the first paragraph.

I was playing a game last night as commander in a small game on NS_Eclipse. I had 2 marines at my disposal against 4 aliens. Although I had no set build order or anything to work by, I had a basic goal of taking Eclipse Command and securing 2 resource nodes within 10 minutes of game start, a feat which my marines deemed risky, as they would be seperated. I start off with the basic 2 Infantry Portal, Armory, Turret Factory, and 3 Sentry Turrets. I sent both of my marines to the Station Access Alpha and we secured those resources, and then I brought them back to base and dropped them some Shotguns and Welders. I explained in detail exactly what I expected and what there job would be, and then sent them on their way. Marine #1 went to Eclipse Command and started a Resource Tower, then a Turret Factory, then 2 turrets. He fought off roughly 10 skulk attacks before he was finished those, and he didnt die once. Marine #2 was sent to the Horseshoe, where he constructed a Resource Tower, a Turret Factory, and 2 Sentry Turrets. This marine was lucky, being attacked only once or twice, and fighting them both off with a single Shotgun blast. As resources become available, I drop 3 more turrets at each of my outposts, and then Phase Gates. I order my men back to main base to construct more turrets and a phase gate, because my command console was nearly taken out. I had to drop a shotgun and welder outside my chair then hop out and kill the Skulks. I got them to build an Observatory and Arms Lab, and then I began upgrading my Armory. I sent both my soldiers out to the Maintenance hive site, where they found an alien Resource Tower, a Gorge, and a constructing Hive. I ordered my men to take down the Resource Tower and th Gorge. After they completed their orders, I decided that the smartest thing would be to build a Phase Gate in a corner and get them to build it, and then attack the Hive. Upon completion of the Phase Gate, the attack on the hive began. I noticed that the harassment on my outposts died off, and warned my marines to watch Motion Sensing for Incoming Skulks. After unleashing about 2 Shotgun clips each upon the Hive, the Skulks and a Lerk made a nice rush at my poor men, and chomped them down with only one casualty. I dropped 2 Shotguns at the main base, and when they were both respawned I sent them back to the Maintenance through my unseen Phase Gate. Obviously the aliens were surprised when 2 Shotgun-toting marines attacked them from behind, and finished off the Hive. We decided that we would just Siege Cannon the Computer Core, and so we secured an area just athrough the wall form the Computer Core. The aliens got wise to our plan, and attempted to organize some attacks, but all were repelled without much effort. We set up a Phase Gate and then an Advanced Turret Factory, not even bothering with Sentry Turrets this time. We sieged out there final Hive, without any casualties. Keep in mind I have missed some un-important evenss in this round, and possibly some important ones, but I am trying to remember off the top of my sleep-deprived head. I think I have basically got it all just the way it happened.

In this 40 minute game, my marines each died once. I treated these marines like kings, I dropped ammo and health on them whenever they engaged in battle, not so much as to be wasteful though. Although I am ashamed to admit I cannot remember there names, they know who they are.

Anyways, the point of me posting this was just to get some input, do you think that Shotguns are worth the 20 resources? Not just in small games like this one, but in general. I think that this win was directly caused by the marines skilled use of the Shotgun. I have commanded these same Marines on different occasions, and I have seen them take down groups of Fades with their exceptional use of Jetpacks and Shotguns, so I knew heading into this game that they would be able to tear down skulks with Shotties. However I was not prepared for the utter rape that ensued. These Skulks were not just beat back, they were blown away. My men rarely got a bite on them, and when they did they promptly walked over one of my dropped Medpacks and finished the job. Anyways, just tell me, do you think Shotguns are worth there price when put into the proper hands? For me, Shotguns will always be the weapon of choice, because they are powerful, low cost, and efficient as heck in the right hands. If you are going to argue that they suck at long range, just remember: that's what the Pistol is for.
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Comments

  • FlatlineUTDFlatlineUTD Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
    I think the shotgun is at a fairly resonable price when you think about how much damage it deals. That thing is more of a hand cannon than anything else. If they ever nerf it (like less damage, slower shots, etc), then the price would *definitely* need some lowering.
  • tlengtleng Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9503Members
    for 20rp it seems like a waste of cash, esp when early turrets are good at defending hives and you're so short of cash. If you know that the marine is uber, then sure 20rp is a good investment, but if they die alone then thats 20rp gone instead of an extra turret at the hive.

    I'm all for reducing their cost to 15rp though.
  • AlarikAlarik Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9326Members
    the shotgun is an incredible weapon. i wont go so far as to say it is *better* than the hmg, but it would be difficult for me to say it is worse. it's cheap, kills just about anything very quickly, and the ammo lasts you a long time. also, its optimal range really isnt that much shorter than the HMG's.
  • Ben128Ben128 Join Date: 2002-06-21 Member: 808Members, Constellation
    Very true about its range. The "Optimal" range for Shotgun is almost the exact same as the HMG. And Shot for shot in one second(on the first push of the trigger) the shotgun does more inital damage, just the HMG does way way more over a period of time. But the shotgun spread is good at times for a medium range attack also. It still does some pain to weaker kharaa.
  • LegionnairedLegionnaired Join Date: 2002-04-30 Member: 552Members, Constellation
    I love the shotgun.

    I once held bast's marine spawn with it for 6 minutes as the start of the game, with teh entire alien team coming after us.

    I love the shotgun. Especially in a mixed fireteam.
  • BoddoZergBoddoZerg Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8380Members
    The shotgun costs only 1 rp more than a Turret, but look at the capabilities:

    Turret: Sits there, gets killed by any single alien who knows how to circlestrafe, it takes 5 of them to kill a single Fade, and if he is smart he will run away. Once the tfac, a big weakly armored building, dies, all the turrets become little more than skulk food. Even if a Marine is surrounded by turrets, a good Skulk player can run in, eat him, and run away before the turrets get a lock on him.

    Shotgun: Kills skulks and lerks in one hit no matter if they have upgrades. Kills fades in 2-5 hits depending on their and your upgrade level. Can even hurt the big bad Onos. A shotgun/jetpack player has nothing to fear from skulks, lerks, and onos; only a fade can actually threaten him. One shotgunner in a group of LMGers makes the whole group immune to melee-attackers.

    I think the difference is clear.
  • sekdarsekdar Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9564Members
    in the hands of a skilled user, it will easily pay for itself very quickly, and then some
  • tlengtleng Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9503Members
    so you're saying the the begining go fact,1 turret, armory then drop a shotgun? Or only when they ask for it?
  • AkiraAkira Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8678Members
    I like the shotgun a lot more than the HMG...i dunno why, mainly because it deals a lot of damage in a fraction of the time it takes a HMG to do the same, nothing better than going and getting up and personal with a Fade with one of these <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
    Definately my weapon of choice.

    Ak.
  • InjuryInjury Mahou Shoujo Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7992Banned
    Most aliens but the nefarious Onos will retreat against a Shotgunner instead of taking the brunt of the blast. In the hands of a skilled practioner, the walls will run green. As Flatline stated before, a Hand Cannon, sometimes you need that sort of firepower delivered in a quick blast rather than over a short amount of time. For its price (which is very reasonable for the damage it can deliver in so short of a time), I think it is absolutely worth it.

    I'd take the Shotgun over the HMG or GL, close combat is where I excel.
  • FlatlineUTDFlatlineUTD Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
    I've seen clans play with a build order that went:

    Portal
    Armory
    Give 1 guy a shotgun - there's all the base defense you need

    That's all they build in their main until they secure a hive, then they build an Observatory, Phase Gates, and Arms Lab.

    No Factory in their main base at all.
  • JujiJuji Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9153Members
    edited November 2002
    I think shotgun is great. Better than the hmg? That depends.

    Shotgun vs HMG, which is better?

    Speed of killing [Shotgun]
    Damage [Fairly equivalent]
    ROF [HMG]
    Reload time [HMG]
    Range [HMG]
    Cost [Shotgun by a smidgen]

    Disregarding any differences in player skill, you should be able to kill things much faster with a shotgun at close range than with an HMG at close range. Even though both guns do comparable damage (lots), it takes more time to dish that damage out using an HMG. Since people are often getting rushed by aliens trying bite/slash them, this benifit usually gets amplified during an acutal game.

    The shotgun does have it's disadvantages when compared to the HMG though. For one, it has a slower rate of fire, which means, each miss is that much more costly. The reload time is also very long, I'm pretty sure it's longer than the HMG, but I'm not sure by how much.

    The HMG is better for providing cover fire as well. If you need to pin some aliens down, the HMG will do the job better than the shotgun, due to its larger ammo capacity, better ROF and range.

    As a marine I like both, as a commander it depends.

    my fancy table got butchered...
  • ChronChron Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6185Members
    NOT worth the price. Compare the 20rs shotty to the FREE LMG.
    with shotty, if a skulk is charging at you, you need to wait until hes close to fire, or else you wont kill anything. The marine combat advantage vs skulks is range. Why give up your range advantage for a *chance* at a one-hit kill close range? Same with fades, only its even riskier because they have slash, and getting off 3-5 good shots while hes blinking and slashing is tough. You get close to a fade, he blinks behind you and uses acid rocket, and at that range your shotgun couldn't hit a hive.

    Look at the pistol, its got 10 shots, all perfectly accurate, and they do like 21dmg each shot, and you can unload a clip in about the time it takes to fire a shotgun and **obscenity** it again. thats 210 damage. better than shotgun, and free. When I use a shotty, I find there is very little I kill that I could not have done with LMG/pistol. If that fade is going to be in your sights long enough to hit him 4 times with shotgun, you'll have more than enough time to put a clip in him, and you don't have to be at melee range.
  • NiteMareNiteMare Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8741Members
    I personally wont use a heavy machine gun, I only like shotguns or lmgs.
  • KaMiKaZe1KaMiKaZe1 Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9196Members
    Chron, just how bad do you think the spread shot is? In some cases it is even a good thing, because even if you do not have a PERFECT aim, you will hit. The Shotgun is fairly accurate even at mid-range, and any smart marine will start with his pistol pulled for long range, and switch to Shotty as the Skulk/Lerk/Fade moves in closer. Of course late game there are better guns, but if you keep the enemy at 2 hives, it is fairly easy to win with nothing but upgrades and Shotties. Keep in mind, the effectiveness of the shotgun depends COMPLETELY on the brains and skill of the user. I have personally taken down 2 Fades and a Skulk in a single firefight with nothing but a shotty and some dodging, and then I waltzed into a Hive site to kill a few Gorges. That is not to say I didn't have some luck in the dodging department, but the fact is the Shotty unloads a MASSIVE amount of damage, much faster then the LMG or Pistol does. I can't help but think they should lower the price just a wee bit, even just 2 or 3 resources, but I will not complain. Basically, if you get a good bead on an alien at mid to short range, he is dead, and I find that early game, all the way to late game with upgrades, it is an extremely useful addition to any squad.

    <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> with a LMG can be equal to <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
    <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> with a Shotgun can equal to <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BolterBolter Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8331Members
    I think that shotguns are a great early game weapon. The problem is justifying the expense. Like it was mentioned above, the 20rp that they cost can always be used somewhere else.
    I believe that the key factor in deciding to invest in shotguns is wheter your marines can shoot or not.
    A great way to determine if they'll put the gun to good use, or just lose it, is to tell people that want shoties to show you a couple of pistol kills. If they can hit with the pistol, chances are that they'll hit with the shotie. This may seem cold, but a good shooter will get the weapon every time, and the team will be better off as a whole.
  • ChronChron Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6185Members
    edited November 2002
    its easy to win with lmgs and upgrades, too.
    If your team has good aim, lmg is just as good. if they have bad aim, shotgun sucks, lmg is still free.
    Early game, it really is not worth the RS. late game, might as well spend 5 more rs and give them the ability for range with hmg, not the mention you don't need to have perfect aim with 150 bullets to a clip.
    Basically, I have not run into a single situation where I think to myself "I wish I had a shotgun for this" because neither my lmg nor my hmg was doing the job well enough.
  • MenTaLMenTaL Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3558Members
    My main reason for liking the shotty is the speed/damage ratio. It delivers a fast burst and doesn't slow you as much as the hmg. With upgrades to the weapons it only gets better. (the ratio)
  • Texas_RangerTexas_Ranger Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9755Members
    I really like the shottie but rarely as a commander drop it until we have HA /HMG /Gl's etc going. The main reasons for this are
    1) resources are tight thoughtout the game, at the very beginning maybe even the first 20 mins or more they are extremely tight. Its hard to justify dropping 20 rp on a shotgun that may or may not help.
    2) If you drop one, everyone is going to want one. If I do drop a shotgun, which I will sometimes do, I drop it in a group of marines and give them all same waypoints and Stress that they follow the guy with the shotgun if they want it.
    3) Sure shotties rock, they rock even better with a few marines wielding them in a group. Its just hard to justify the resource points. 20 resource points could = armor or weapons upgrade which everyone gets. Later in the game I love dropping the jetpack/shottie combos or even Ha/shottie combos

    just my 2 cents
    Texas Ranger
  • FlatlineUTDFlatlineUTD Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Bolter+Nov 25 2002, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bolter @ Nov 25 2002, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The problem is justifying the expense. Like it was mentioned above, the 20rp that they cost can always be used somewhere else.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I've seen a few games where the 20 is better spent on a shottie than anything else. Once the portal and armory come up, one guy gets a shotgun. There's your full base defense for the entire game. One great player with a shotgun took out or detered more than a factory and who knows how many turrets could have.
  • BolterBolter Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8331Members
    Flatline, like my post said, they ARE justified IF the marine can shoot. I've seen great players mow stuff down with shoties. On the other hand I've seen players that can't hit the broad-side of a barn with it, and predictably, become Skulk snacks.
    You said it yourself:

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->One great player with a shotgun took out or detered more than a factory and who knows how many turrets could have<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    One GREAT player can. Not all are skilled with the weapon though.
  • th15th15 Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 6992Members
    I usually play comm when marine and the reason i dont like giving out shotguns is that they dont have the flexibility that the LMG possesses.

    For 20 res my marines get a gun that makes them kings of a NS-DM.

    For 0 res my marines get a pea shooter that at least HURTS buildings.

    All aliens dead = you still dont win

    All buildings dead = you win

    The shotgun puts out the hurt here and now both tactically and strategically. If your troops are getting hemmed into base and you desperately need to break out before the kharaa grab even more res points, then one or two might be justified. But in normal situations, its silly to slap all the aliens around, get to an off chamber near the hive and have all your marines switch to knives and try to cut it down...

    And even when i am a grunt i'd rather have my LMG because heck, i can spit more accurately and further than the shotgun pellets. And of course it takes roughly 3 shotgun bursts to kill a gorge, which is silly.
  • ogzogz Join Date: 2002-11-24 Member: 9765Members
    shotgun sounds like a good defence weapon which should you die, another should quickly take over your spot and your shotgun for 0 resource lost...

    suiciding 3/3 lmgers on attacks is stil my fav method of attacking <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • FlatlineUTDFlatlineUTD Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7695Members
    edited November 2002
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I usually play comm when marine and the reason i dont like giving out shotguns is that they dont have the flexibility that the LMG possesses.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Try coupling it with a jetpack sometime - you'll be surprised.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For 0 res my marines get a pea shooter that at least HURTS buildings.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Are you saying a shotgun doesn't hurt buildings? It wrecks em! I mean, if you're already planning on going in and trying to knife the thing, why not put a shotgun to it instead? It *only* does about 140 more damage than a knife does, and you don't have to be right next to something to attack it.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All aliens dead = you still dont win<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    True, but you delay them. Delay = time to work on buildings. Might as well force them to respawn and come get you again while you go to work on their buildings?

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even when i am a grunt i'd rather have my LMG because heck, i can spit more accurately and further than the shotgun pellets.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    You use a pistol for long-range attacks. It's more accurate than an LMG and can put the hurt on anything.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And of course it takes roughly 3 shotgun bursts to kill a gorge, which is silly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Are you sure you were hitting it? Gorges, Skulks, and Lerks with full health die with one close-range shot.
  • ChronChron Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6185Members
    edited November 2002
    gorge, skulk, and lerk have tiny hitboxes, shotty has large spray. you'd be lucky to kill a gorge in 2 hit at anything but point blank range.

    shotgun sucks. or atleast not nearly worth the resources. king of NS-DM is LMG.

    what if you look at it this way: the only way marines survive early game is by NOT being skulk food. You don't be skulk food by making sure there is range between you and him, and he can't jump out at you. shotgun can't hit range, leaving you with ONLY your pistol for range.
  • Speed_2_DaveSpeed_2_Dave Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8788Members
    though good in the hands of able marines.. on pubs it is rarely worth the risk. I have learned to kill many creatures (especially fades) with the lmg/pistol combo because everyone else is too busy whining for bigger guns.. I don't need to contribute to the decline of a team.
  • Pika-CthulhuPika-Cthulhu Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9386Members
    Im a shotgun advocate, but only in the hands of experienced qualified marines. Just dishing em out is useless as most ppl will grab it and all run off together and die together, a few in a group of LMG marines makes it all that harder for the skulk to chomp away at yer feet. I managed to hold the sewer pipe in the Map with the sewer, generator ventilation hives, from a constant wave of skulk attacks so my boys could get some turrets and **obscenity** up( Granted id rather have pushed forward to hive but they needed cover) And killed about 10 skulks, with the hsotgun before getting dead (got bitten once, and these guys werent noobs, they were just **obscenity** at me for constantly killing them (same 2 guys, constantly trying to rush me, Id change position, and BLAM BLAM dead skulk. With the LMG id have been lucky to have hit one Twice before getting gibbed, Shotgun + close quarters (force them to come at you from round a corner, be Ready for it) you win, unless hes a superfast celerity skulk with super abilities, hes pretty much a pile of gibs. Now given the LMG in that situation id have had to have stoood well back to try and hit one, as he ran out, crawled up teh wall and out of my LOS and proceeded to chew my buddies up. Shotgun is good if u got someone who knows what to do, and has teh drop on the skulks. After that barrage, they backed off, decided to go round back of us, then try it again, I welded the vents shut and stopped thier advance, we lost, co scomm was dickin about not getting a hive (2 diff men were waiting at 2 diff hives, yet comm wanted to turret up resource nozzles, thus costing us the game) oh well, sh!t happens eh, pub server anyways. Somedays you win, somedays you lose.

    It just takes a bit of practice, some good aiming, and a bit of luck to make defense with shotgun work, so long as youve got **obscenity** of skulks who will constantly keep rushing you to try kill you (like I had)
  • NiteMareNiteMare Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8741Members
    Shotguns are better, They are worth the resource, to a commander when one guy runs off alone with a shotgun you just wasted resources, but if you got some players who know how to use team work, three shoutguns and they'll be your best friend, because they can defend, Attack, Hold, Cover, or take out an onos.
  • ChronChron Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6185Members
    if you have enough rs to give 3 people shotguns, then you could have build a rs node w/ turrets for that money. or upgraded to motion tracking, or built an arms lab and a upgrade, or researched heavy armor.
  • RueRue Join Date: 2002-10-21 Member: 1564Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Juji+Nov 25 2002, 09:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Juji @ Nov 25 2002, 09:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Damage [Fairly equivalent]
    <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    u shoot a skulk with a shotgun when its 2 foot away and yeh its the same dammage but when there a fair bit off HMG owns all
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