Devs, Please read this
Seldkam
Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members
Join Date: 2014-01-01 Member: 191213Members
Hello again everyone,
I just logged in after a small break (as usual) and found that because of a card on trello that basically states the devs are experimenting with "hiding recipes" in the fabricator, my save file from which I've crafted more or less everything has now wiped the recipes and I have to make useless items just to get the recipes back... This isn't the worst part of this however
I can definitely understand why this is a good idea, it simplifies things for new players and doesn't overwhelm them, and also makes the game "easier" to understand in terms of progression.
However, this is streamlining in a way I've come to detest ever since the Total War games got run through that particular mill. I want to PLAN what materials to collect so that I can then immediately build what I saw from the fabricator-- not run around collecting random stuff which may or may not be useful.
I am sounding harsher than usual here I think, but this particular experiment, in my eyes, will only frustrate the vast majority of players because once they have learned all the recipes, it is simply a hindrance to them when they begin a new game. There should at least be a way to disable this, as it is extremely irritating to deal with.
As a side note, be careful letting the Radiation spread so far and fast-- I loaded up the game and within 2 minutes of the ship exploding had to move my cyclops, after about 5 seconds of driving I stopped, then 10 seconds later the radiation caught up again
Thoughts are greatly appreciated, feel free to critique
I just logged in after a small break (as usual) and found that because of a card on trello that basically states the devs are experimenting with "hiding recipes" in the fabricator, my save file from which I've crafted more or less everything has now wiped the recipes and I have to make useless items just to get the recipes back... This isn't the worst part of this however
I can definitely understand why this is a good idea, it simplifies things for new players and doesn't overwhelm them, and also makes the game "easier" to understand in terms of progression.
However, this is streamlining in a way I've come to detest ever since the Total War games got run through that particular mill. I want to PLAN what materials to collect so that I can then immediately build what I saw from the fabricator-- not run around collecting random stuff which may or may not be useful.
I am sounding harsher than usual here I think, but this particular experiment, in my eyes, will only frustrate the vast majority of players because once they have learned all the recipes, it is simply a hindrance to them when they begin a new game. There should at least be a way to disable this, as it is extremely irritating to deal with.
As a side note, be careful letting the Radiation spread so far and fast-- I loaded up the game and within 2 minutes of the ship exploding had to move my cyclops, after about 5 seconds of driving I stopped, then 10 seconds later the radiation caught up again
Thoughts are greatly appreciated, feel free to critique
Comments
Cut the devs some slack, they are doing an awesome job, their progress cycle is actually really impressive compared to other games I have in early development.
Games like Space Base DS-9, who simply stopped development. Which was a bit of a burn.
Kerbal Space Program, awesome game. Still unfinished, and though it does get regular updates, they are relatively small compared to what we are seeing here in subnautica.
Robocraft, another awesome game in early access/ in development. Still unfinished but gets pretty regular updates and almost but not quite as significant as subnaut. These days though robocrafts updates are game changers, everything new added changes a lot of previous gameplay, styles and builds people up till now relied on. Ones they even paid money for.
These guys are killing it, and while its hard to see. They are really kicking ass, cut them some slack. Be patient, this sort of post on their forums in this stage of the development cycle is really counter productive and if it gets traction can really slow them up. I saw it happen in the early cycles of Star Wars The Old Republic. A game by the way which is, in my eyes at least only just around the complete stage, and it was "released" nearly 3 years ago wasnt it?
Cool your jets and take a break, play something else and be patient.
Also the point about the radiation is very valid... it spreads too fast.
This kind of post is the reason this forum and the the early access itself exist. the devs want the opinions and suggestions of the players, good and bad, in order to help create a game that is enjoyable for as many people as possible. hey, if no one ever complained about power usage we'd still have seaglides running out of power within 30 seconds
We complain because we care Arbhall, because we care
Now, as for hiding recipes, though i'm not playing experimental and haven't experienced this personally, I have to agree with Seldkam. I started playing when the Cyclops was released and I wanted to be able to build that as quick as possible. the way crafting was set up, you could see what materials you needed through the blueprint then you could use fabricator to trace those materials back and find out what the basic, raw materials you needed to focus on collecting. Hiding the upper tier materials makes this impossible and you either have to wander around aimlessly or use the wiki
one more really small fabricator related gripe, they used to show in the amount of a req'd material you had for crafting weather it was enough or not.
for example, making glass would say something like: 3 Quarts(5)
now it only shows if you don't have enough. i liked having that because I could quickly tell while in the faber's menu how much of something I could craft
I disagree in many ways (your save game being an unfortunate casualty of how xbuild plows ahead in some cases). First, I do think the new mechanic simplifies things somewhat as you said and I do agree that it helps not to overwhelm the new player. It definitely helps better with progression now and likely more down the road as it is refined more as a mechanic. What you are forgetting I think, is that a central and very satisfying theme of this game is discovery. To me it makes sense that I would first need to explore the world and bring back resources I had found so that the fabricator understood better what it could build and what tech items would fit an ocean world environment. There is an enhanced sense of satisfaction in that and it gives the game a more epic feel imo.
I'm having a hard time seeing how this would be so frustrating to the vast majority as you put it. If you've already got the recipes memorized when you start a new session, how does this hinder you? Not sure how it makes planning ahead any worse either. It's a wip mechanic on xbuild as well, so initially there is bound to be frustration as fabricator unlocks working with saves is solidified. I love any sense of "figure it out on your own/as you go" tech discovery and progression elements. I think this new mechanic is great (just like food discoveries by what you bring back is great). I even wish that in hc mode Charlie would make it so you need every component for discovery. This despite the fact that, yes, I already know all the recipes from playing so long and unfortunately might know any of the new ones added since I follow and comment on the design Trellos so closely...but just in case I don't and especially for the new player filled with wonder upon first entry into this amazing alien ocean world, it makes gameplay that much more exciting in my book.
I'm sorry but I don't have time to memorize every single recipe ... And please don't tell me most people will memorize them, because that is something that you can't possibly know. Even, however, if you can take the proper materials, you still can't craft the equipment LOL. Your points are valid definitely, but they value aesthetics over mechanics which I don't take a liking to
so someone starting a new game will discover things fresh, yes, but then the next one? Sheer annoyance ... There is no discovery that time, there's no way they'd be happy they can't build the better things
Its like making experience useless, and pandering to the new people as I said
As a disclaimer, yes I understand the devs will do whatever, but this isn't meant to bash the devs, there is simply no way of expressing myself without sounding annoyed ... Because this subject matter, of streamlining, ruined one of my favorite franchises and I don't want it to do the same to this game
My apologies if I offended anyone
Second of all, there was no indication that you (in the story) knew ahead of time what was on this planet...so how does the fabricator even logically know what it can build if it doesn't see the resources that you bring back first? On top of the discovery satisfaction aspect and on top of the catering to the new player experience, I just think it makes way more sense in the game scenario. (With the previous reasons given on how, to me, it shouldn't be any more of an annoyance on second playthroughs and beyond).
Btw you haven't offended me at all and I hope not anyone else. I didn't see it as you "bashing the devs" in any sense and I think your opinions and reasons were given in a strong but respectful way. A breathe of fresh air compared to how some people operate, so thank you! That is what the devs want - to get good and honest feedback. I respectfully disagree with your conclusions on this one, but totally support the freedom to express your dislike (even annoyance) with any particular aspect/mechanic. I certainly try to make my grievances known! (freebies on start in pod storage, I'm looking at you)
Why don't cut the apple in two (sorry, I think this saying is french only ?) ?
Since we have an artificial intelligence, it can have (perhaps) some fragments of reports done in a reco of the planet before the temptative of landing.
So, it can provide blueprints of some things (like the food, or the seamoth, since it's very easy to build it and a must have to survive on this kind of planet), but materials needed are showned as " ??? " for those we never pick up. This way we can
- understand where are materials ;
- learn recipe and memorize them ;
-unlock step by step a blueprint (by just cheking it in the tab of our PDA), and without making anoying return to the pod to test the "I-think-this-one-is-a-very-useful-ore/item") ;
- unlock new blueprints by completing and crafting a needed part of another blueprint (steelglasse for example will unlock the blueprint of the cyclop and basics parts of the base)
And that's true T, I've never heard "split the apple both ways" but whatever happens happens
The rest is opinion, and we are all entitled to it, and, in such a forum, to express it. You do seem a bit annoyed, Seldkam, but not really rude, I don't think.
I don't agree, I'm afraid, with your opinions of the the recipe progression.
It is, I think, a matter of play style, and it will be impossible to cater perfectly to all play styles. The devs will have to find a level of progression that, in their view, meets the needs of their vision for the game and the majority of players. In the end, what satisfies their vision for the game is up to them.
My personal style tends, generally, towards role-playing. I would go with a much slower progression with much more research to unlock recipes, and would most like to see the high-end recipes on a separate machine or the recipes split between components/materials on one machine and end manufactured items on another, with a separate machine for water and another for food and one would have to have a basic base outside of the life pod before building anything more advanced than the Seamoth. I'd have everything other than the basic materials and equipment researched to unlock. It doesn't seem right with the idea of exploring a new world that you, or your machine, would automatically know what ingredients native to that planet you would need to make stuff. For example, how would you know that you need a stalker tooth to make hardened glass when you have never come across a stalker before? But you could research a stalker tooth or stalker dna and a piece of crashed ship and it would provide you with a recipe for hardened glass. Researching a found computer chip could suggest that a piece of the native coloured coral might have the requisite minerals, and bringing a piece of jewelled disk would confirm this.
I can see, however, that that would be too much for a lot of players (though I would really like to see a better (I hate to use the word "realistic" around the issue of games, but yeah, I suppose more "realistic") way of providing drinking water, as it really quite bugs me at present). But equally I think the everything open at the beginning, present it all to the player at once, method, that has been used up to now (quite understandably, this is early development and the aim is really to give us stuff to test out) is too much too quickly, both in terms of overwhelming the new player with information and in terms of the pace of exploration and expansion in the game
You see, what is limiting for you as a player may not be limiting to me, and what is ideal to you, may be downright immersion-breaking for me. I accept that you feel limited, but you can't project that view onto all players. It seems that you and I lie at two ends of the ideal tech progression spectrum and most players will probably fall somewhere between. I would imagine more probably towards your end than mine.
I haven't played x-branch, so I can't comment directly on this particular iteration of the system. I'm sure it will have plenty of streamlining before it is finalised, and many of us will have constructive imput and comments and criticisms that, judging from what I've seen on the forums and trello so far, the devs will take into consideration as they move forward. In the end we may have to compromise our ideal views and accept the devs' compromises and the game as they build it.
Your idea is pretty similar of mine. And to clarify my thoughts, Atelier Iris series (for those of you who played it) is good example of what have in mind.
But I'm against a portable fabricator. It's a powerfull machine that can destroy and rebuild things at an atomic level, so it need a lot of power.
Also the multi-machine necessity is out of game, since we have the fabricator technology, no need to havec anything else, except a more powerfull version (to replace the emergency one in the pod), and (as it already exist) for base and vehicles.
@Vaknathi
I agree with your idea to progress along a tree tech, but I think the ingredients are already good, except in quantity.
Also what I find a joke is to find titanium in the form of ore piece (which is not natural). Find anothers ores to extract titanium from it is much more reallistic.
I don't have a problem with any of the materials, more with how a new explorer on the planet would know what materials to use when they hadn't encountered them before, hence the need to research. In playability terms, I think that researching each and every native ingredient (e.g. acid mushrooms, stalker teeth, etc., stuff not found on earth) would be way too much for most players. Similarly, finding stuff like titanium and lithium in raw form, rather than extracted from other substances, is a bit daft, but kind of understandable in game mechanics where things need to be simplified and streamlined to some degree. Some of us would really like to have to build everything in a realistic but futuristic way, but it really would not work for most players, as with having to do lots of research, they'd understandably get bored or confused and bogged down by all of it instead of having fun, and I imagine it would be a pain in the butt for the devs to implement.
I would really like a desalination machine or process though, adding bleach to seawater to get drinking water just bugs the heck out of me. I don't know why, I'm quite fixated on it at present. I tried just using filtered water for a while, but with the food and hydration system as unbalanced as it is at present I seemed to just spend my whole time trying to catch airsacks to filter water through. I guess we all probably have our pet peeves, that's just mine.
But I don't think the food/water system is so outlined because of the lenght of day/night cycle and the lack of rest option. In fact, we need to eat/drink 1 time per day and night (approximatively), wich is really unrealistic.
And about the ingredients reesarch, some are already known (those which are the most accessible) because of previous reco missions. I don't think humanity will send a ship that big without any preparation. And I think this ship is part of a more big mission.
While I'm on it, the ship seems very unrealistic (or technologie as reach a VERY high level), because to suceed in bypassing the athmosphere and landing that thing is a really major step (when we saw the actual difficulties to just don't rost a shuttle)...). Without talking to launch it from the ground (but I think it will be dismantele for the sake of a colony making).
And if the actual technology allow it, we need an energy bluckler ! (okay okay I must not dream...
I hear you. The expanding recipes currently doesn't account for games that were saved before it was put in, which the reason I think this is annoying you so much. I should be able to fix that relatively easily. Alternatively, if you manually "pick up" loot that was saved in your inventory, it will "unlock" that recipe for you. Sorry about that.
The fabricator menu is definitely designed to let you "build towards" recipes. However, when you start the game, you are bombarded with a ton of recipes - and this is going to get worse. So I wanted to balance these two ideas with the expanding recipes change. Also, it's important to me that players don't know the "boundaries" of the game: it's all about exploring the unknown, and if you immediately see what's possible in the game, that's not a good thing.
It may not be be a net positive change, hopefully we'll know shortly. This is the glory of Early Access and this process we're engaging with on these forums together!
Unfortunately that's not the main reason I'm annoyed... The main reason I'm annoyed is that every single time I start a new game and want to skip to something more advanced, I cant... Really that simple
I'm not mad, or trying to rage, but I am being honest as to how strongly I feel about this decision
Charlie Cleveland added Add "alltech" support to expanding crafting menu to To Do B53 "Crashed Ship" (~ Apr 8) and joined.
yesterday at 1:52 pm
I don't particularly find this necessary, but perhaps upon any new sessions of the game a player creates, they could keep track of your unlock level overall and give the option to play the new game using that global unlock level.
Yeah I dont like that, I prefer progression. I would rather work my way up than just have a list of stuff. I dont care if it annoys other players, its a game, it is supposed to eat time, and be challenging. This is the sort of thing gold farmers hate, and I love that. I know this game dosnt even really have a plan for multiplayer, so gold farmers arent likely to show up. But thats how much they annoy me. Sorry.
In that way I shouldve known I would be fighting an uphill battle
I think it would make less sense to me to make the entire game a tutorial, which is what it feels like to me
Yes I get discovery is important, but this game shouldn't be about discovering equipment to craft like Minecraft, it should be about discovering the world... And the equipment should be readily available to help the Player do that ... And it isnt
The fabricator system is excellent, but the interface needs reworked, maybe something abit bigger, not cumbersome, but bigger, clearer menus.
Should be menus to make 5 items, all items of same type, so I can cook all my fish at once, not one at a time.
Expandable catagories that I can expand/close so that I can concentrate on a local item similar to what's available, equipment, tool, food, basic resource etc. I'd like to see the vehicle constructor removed and a new local subsurface constructor introduced. This is mainly because the cyclops needs deep water to be built in an currently you usually end up with your first one being beached or grounded. The new vehicle unit would only allow placement where there was sufficient water to allow construction for the cyclops and for the vehicle to be safely floated.
I like collecting random "loot" and sorting it manually in my base.
I'd like fabricator to access either all storage units or maybe just have one bigish storage area. That would typically be bigger than my own inventory.
One of the things I noticed from almost every single youtube video prior to buying the game and trying it myself.. noone reads the menus, they glance and pick out what is cool and go only for that item.
I read every menu, memories every resource, then explore the area, remembering where everything is, then collect and build what I want or need.
I haven't googled anything. I love the idea of finding new recipes and researching them or adding a new fish, seeing what it gives after catching it, not before I've ever seen it.
As for starting a new game and wanting to skip to more advanced items, but can't.. you sound like my son. If you're starting a new game, should it be new.. shouldn't you need to find everything again? If they allowed you to access everything in the game, it would be boring and the quantity of information would overtake most new players. Destroying any chance of them continuing with the game. It is possible to just have too much information.
When you start a new game, it should be like your first experience.
Easy goes it, gentally easing forward. Not thrust, bang, wallop & out the door in 30 seconds.
The random land generation really helps with replayability, longevity and it will attract more players than adding a cheat system that basically gives you everything you need, before you need it. The latter is why people quit games. Boredom.
You aren't hardcore, you just want everything now. A hardcore player relishes taking their time. And a game that doesn't cater for new players. Doesn't have any players.
The stuff you need is available. You just need to get it first. You know where it is, because you have experienced a game progression. But you want it in your hand. No doubt next to your silver spoon.
I think the problem here is that you haven't played the game long enough to know how frustrating this system is... Because you really proved my point: in the first hours of the game, this system will work well
The rest of the time it creates a restriction that punishes older players , that's the way I see it
Also, please keep it civil
Well said man.
I mentioned in my first post there could at least be an option or something in the settings to compromise, I'm assuming it wouldn't be difficult but idk
Keep in mind, and the devs should keep this in mind too, just as a statistic that I"m going to throw out there-- only about 4 people have posted saying they disagree, while 7 have said they agree-- If the devs want to do something the "fans" want, they should keep that in mind, which is why I wanted to post this topic-- to SHOW that this isn't wanted as much as others , then this should be paid attention too, since I have also shown people how important this actually is to the game
I don't really like posting on topics that have to do with "Hull batches please!" or some other such non-gameplay related topic, as that's not what I find interesting
cheers