Maps - Why do new maps fail?
Frozen
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Now, I know this isn't a popular opinion for some reason but: Every map is good in a 2-round match. But another popular opinion is that people don't want to play new maps because they suck. I don't feel this way, at all. Took me 20 rounds and 0 alien wins to concede that I just can't carry a game on this map [derelict] from alien, but that's not for here.
I want to start a discussion and see people's input on some of the following points. Not asking direct questions. I'm going to number them like another recent thread since I like how that's going format-wise
If there's another point you think should be here just mention it and I'll add it if I agree.
I want to start a discussion and see people's input on some of the following points. Not asking direct questions. I'm going to number them like another recent thread since I like how that's going format-wise
- Having spawns change, especially marine start, presents a serious issue for mappers, and it's one that can't really be resolved. Changing spawns has serious implications to how the map plays. For maps where marine start is fixed, but aliens have variable spawn the problem is reduced, by probably more than half. How can we layout a map that will play according to everyones standards if that map needs to function with 4 variants?
- People need to learn maps. Changing where the teams start impedes this process. Do I have data? No, shut up. But people will learn more quickly if both spawns are locked because of the repetition. From there can't we then unlock alien spawns in the future with some changes to the map after seeing how it plays? Atleast the release will be better balanced. This could have potentially saved EVERY map release and puts the Maptesters limited time to better purpose.
- Can we somehow "group" the maps? I don't know what to call the categories, but what I'm getting at is Tram=Laneblocking, Derelict=Laneblocking, Veil=Central-focus, Summit=something. Sort of like different game modes, but not.. People ain't be understanding, or just not liking, that maps change the game and balance more than the game's "balance"
If there's another point you think should be here just mention it and I'll add it if I agree.
Comments
"How can we layout a map that will play according to everyones standards if that map needs to function with 4 variants?"
The same way that Summit was done : hard work and testing / adjusting.
It's not boring if it gets played.... You know what's way more boring. Kodiak, Eclipse, soon to be Derelict. Because 0 ways to play is WAY less fun than 1.
edit: I'd rather have 4 maps with fixed spawns than 1 map with 4 spawn-variants
edit2: I'll euthanize summit right now. THAT's a boring map
Not every map is suitable for every strategy. Some maps are less forgiving. People just do not want to do it.
Who ever realisticly starts with shade hive? No one. But humour me and actually play derelict a few rounds with shade hive. (and a team/comm actually USING shade hive) and you will see your wins go up.
Is eclipse ever going to be fixed?
Aura prevents trapping lifeforms.
It also gives lifeforms a warning of marines in general. Especially on a new map its quite common to fly / blink into dead walls, wrong directions etc. Aura makes you at least do this without a marine around.
Combine the already cluttered map itself (which I think is fine) with silence and you take a main strength of marines away.
Confuse marines in long hallways with hallucinations. Push in a group with them.
Derelict works really well with shade hive.
People learned those maps early on so they're the most familiar which is why they get played most often. It was the same way with NS1, where tanith, eclipse, and veil were the holy trinity of played maps.
I'm not saying every map has to be fixed. Just the ones that don't look like a dota map
They were released in the order of: Tram, Summit, Mineshaft, Docking, Veil, Descent, Refinery, Biodome, Eclipse, Kodiak, Derelict
Before Eclipse and Kodiak there was Refinery and Biodome. Neither of which failed. Both are popular maps, although not holy trinity popular. I play Summit, Tram, and Veil more than I would like to. I see Biodome, Refinery, and Descent fairly often. I see mineshaft every once in awhile.
Taking Eclipse and Kodiak and thinking all new maps will fail is wrong. Both of those maps tried new things. Well eclipse is old, in an ns1 sense, but the layout is new for ns2. Both have serious issues. I can not remember the last time I played kodiak or eclipse. I play custom maps more often.
Derelict has a much more familiar layout. It is summit but with 4 tech points. It is not trying anything incredibly new. This is not to say that the map is without issue, but that I don't think it will become a failed map.
It really is too early to tell if Derelict failed.
I think the better question is why are Tram, Summit, and Veil the most played. I think aeroripper answered that pretty well already.
Eclipse failed because it was a bit of a rush job, and the map maker originally leading the charge just up and disappeared partway through.
Kodiak failed because it was an experimental type of map, and that just didn't pan out well.
I can't remember the last time I played Mineshaft either
This doesn't address why people don't like it though. People don't care/know who made the map, and experimental is really vague.
From what I heard, arguments against Eclipse are that marines are too disadvantaged in that map. I think some changes were made, but people didn't give it a second chance. My experience with Kodiak was that I had fps issues, not sure why others don't like it. The plants and glass maybe?
People hate Mineshaft because Cave is too vulnerable and Repair start is practically close spawns. Some people think 11 res nodes are too many but others may like that. Its still played decently often though?
I also want to add that I hate Docking because Cafeteria is a stupid tech point (too remote) and Stability and Maintenance are too effective for marines and I have no idea why people continually play it. Also, Locker and Terminal start.
Ultimately, I think the key issue is familiarity. The older maps get a pass because of it and even Agri labsBiodome which was initially derided for being Summit 2.0/3.0 is now accepted as part of the rotation even with its 100% fixed spawns.
Personally, I like Derelict but I haven't played many games on it yet. I never played many games on Eclipse either
One strange phenomena I've witnessed lately is when a team loses, the map is automatically considered shit and a votemap change is in order, when a team wins no one complains, funny that.
Kodiak...eurgh. dislike. Personally I don't like it because the gameplay is too same-y on the map, and most of the interesting engagement spots are on the right side of the map.
Also, I don't believe for a second that marines are disadvantage on eclipse. A simple phase gate to the middle of the map and you can pressure virtually all alien harvesters with ease.
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tram: awesome... not much to say. It supports every kind of strat that is valid in current meta. Most people consider it the best map out there (I hate server room spawn because it is too far away from everything)
summit: also very good. but do to it's size and fast rotations it can snowball into marines favour very quickly
mineshaft: 11 RTs + that mapsize allows aliens ti just mass expand in every direction leaving marines having no choice but going full agression most likely opening up to baserushes. Also 11 RT maps take like forever to end because aliens are have trouple keeping marine down on RTS in the end. So they have a good reinforcement of exos for example
docking: actually never really tried that map in 6v6 competitive. However I think Locker Room was too OP because it is so close at the center of the map which is the only valid way for marines to go north
veil: good map. however the RTs for marines are quite far away and the aliens can laneblock marines in east and west junction which makes it hard for marines to push out once boxed in.
descent: I rly want to like descent, however as long as their are 3 vents (launch control - receiving, water treatment - monorail, shipping - south corridor) the map will be a bit alien favoured in my opinion. (for lower divisions alot actually)
refinery: the map has potential, however I would completely replace lavafalls with 3 seperate rooms. This room performs horribly and playing in that room is due to high lign of sight and that multilevel tower just frustrating for me everytime I am in there
biodome: good map. It is like summit but solves the issues summit has due to bigger size
eclipse: I have no idea if people don't like the map because of too many corridors tbh. All I know is I don't like it because the marine naturals are way too far away for a map on this size but I actually think this map can be done well... if it will ever get played is a different question
kodiak: In this case I can only speak for myself but I don't like the map just because of the biosphere parts (similar to lavafalls on refinery for me). Bad performance and I think a winter version of this map (without leaves on the trees) would make this map alot better tbh
derelict: not enough data
Oh, so thats every game then? How odd, can't say I have that experience.
And as somebody else said: Asymmetric maps are great! If a one team have a harder time, then you can play it twice or even four times, if you want it to be fair! And it should work with this a symmetric game. Games does NOT have to be even.
Another thing about maps is that gameplay changes through time. We don't play the maps the same way as when released. Everybody didn't rush locker rooms on docking in the beginning. At least good maps do.
Some of these maps have so much testing gone into them. The originals are still holding up thanks to this-Eclipse and Veil are old reconstructed maps from ns1. It shows.
I love new maps. Vote for the new ones because i like to test new strategies and so on. But in all games i've played the playerbase seem to stick to their favourites-and the majority are VERY conservative about maps, maybe especially in a game where map knowledge is more important than in other games (you know what works).
Sometimes i miss some of the weirder maps from ns1, if anyone remembers them, that had playful gameplay mechanics thanks to pure map design, of which siege maps was just a part and not a mod... what was the name of the map when you fell down into the alien base and had to weld something on the wall? So much fun!
I would like to have more maps, like maybe 20 that were played regularly and new, quality ones coming out all the time;) but i also accepted that most people prefer 6-7maps per game. Too bad playerbase isn't big enough for a custom map server with 32 players...;)
They dont have any naturals that they can easily defend.
Crusher has 4 access points, so it cant really be blocked off and cart tunnel is WAY to far away, which leaves sorting as the only real option...but not really since the cyst chain can be cut by holding crusher.
If crusher had the entrance at cart tunnel cut off, at least that would reduce pressure on aliens economy, and not make a cave spawn be an automatic marine win
Yes, everything in NS2 is balanced for two rounds, switching teams. But in pubs that simply doesn't happen. And really, why should I care? If one side will always (you know what I mean) win, why should the other side even try?
If the end is predictable, people won't want to play.
The common maps are unpredictable, both teams might win, regardless of the strategy they play.
Saying that "not all strats work with every map" is true. But then why should I play a map that forces me to play one way or another? Diversifying the experience is all well and good, but that's not how the average player sees it.
Different maps should have different objectives, but not necessarily different 'required' strategies.
If you spawn Cave, you pretty much HAVE to do a really quick Sorting or Deposit hive drop.
Any spawn that has a single viable option needs to be looked at
NS is RTS/FPS and RTS do not stands for Real Time Shooter...
Before we get to the core of it let me make a quick comparison with other 100% RTS.
The 100% RTS like battle for Middle Earth or Starcraft are like this. You always have a land to discover, you send units to scout while you try to harvest resources to build an army and finally launch an attack. In this kind of game one of the key element is the enemy location (unknown for a long time).
In NS the land is all visible, and all players know where the enemy is under 1 minute (under 10sec for some others). All the resource points are known. So there is no scouting. One of the thing that can change is the start location. And it's a good thing. removing that will ensure a quick death of maps.
I can almost disagree sentence by sentence with the first post.
I don't see how. The maps (official and customs) were made with a picture in mind. Ex: imagine you have a place called "Furnace" ... it would definitely be an alien hive.
It's doesn't mean it's a lack of skills when North is made for Marines and South for Aliens. As long as the mappers respect some guidelines (found in launchpad) and take the time to "stop watch" the travel time. From this point they have a clear good start. Then the environment is to be properly done (lights; nooks etc...). You may not realize that each maps have a set of rules and styles you can decrypt on your own. And every player should try to look into it... offline eventually.
In fact it's the contrary. It adds to the problem. As said before it becomes boring but also it removes the adaptation skill needed when it changes. Short story: NS plays like CS in space (or Combat) by loosing the strategic side of it. It would be the same to play with drones in the end.
Nope, it's boxing them in the worst possible way: Habits. Therefore if you change anything that contradicts the habits they will not be able to play/function. Back to square one.
Because humans do NOT like change. It's in our nature. If you suggest people are dumb and lazy f***s you are right. So why remove one of the thing that can make them get out of this mental prison ?
Map (and mappers) don't need to be saved. It's the players. They don't read, they're whining mostly about stupid things when the game they play isn't a COD or BF clone. They're lost when there is no gun on the screen.
Tagging the maps will have the same effect as "bad map sticker". It's wrong.
Yes there are some maps that have problems or "main idea" and therefore cannot have any configuration for the start. Some 1st hive are bad, yes. But it doesn't mean it has to be locked to a point it ruins the strategy aspect of the game. You want better maps ? Make some relevant feed back showing specific situations. You may learn something as most of the time it is the players that didn't do the right thing.
Because the real thing to learn in NS (or what NS can teach) isn't to know the maps, or to have a 'routine' (who said De_DUST?) to execute. It's to ADAPT and make your teammates do the same. We all did, and we all discovered a world of possibilities past that milestone. Strategy is about options. Why are you so eager to remove what makes NS great and deep compared to any other game ? It's not that difficult to train a little on its own and learn NS. The problem isn't NS, it's the slower minds (in this thread context).
Yes, but unfortunately in this case "looked at" really only gives you two courses of action:
1) Remove Cave alien spawn, aka the easy way out.
or
2) Find somebody who doesn't have their plate full already who can dedicate weeks and months of time to making changes to the map so Cave plays better.
Neither is really satisfying.
If you can claim repair early, secure it with a tunnel, it gives you much easier access to cavern and the marines have more limited access to crusher (through central only). If you manage to take central as well you pretty much win since that gives you a strong hold on 6 rts, full denial of water pumps, and easy harass on anything they don't put a phase in. If they take central you take sorting and contest depot instead, which is a weaker but still winnable position.
Of course, cave vs repair is just totally screwed. That's where the fast depot/sorting hive comes in but marines still have too much map access from repair/cart tunnel. Really I just like to take repair in general and hate when marines spawn there. It's the strongest base offensively on the map.