They need proper lessons. They need a coach. Once they learn it's ok.
And how do you propose that to change? Force commander training on local server for X time before online? Better tutorial videos? Rookie only servers with handicap settings?
There are plenty of ways for people to learn, they just don't have any patience nor give it any effort. Granted, the way rookie commanders are treated is wrong, but that goes both ways when they don't listen to any advice people give them while they're experimenting in the chair. It's quite limited how much they can learn from tutorials, beside that there's nothing to teach nor prevent rookies in the commander position but server rules or mods.
It's not like commanders have to bust a sweat giving orders & communicating with the team, just drop needed buildings & answer requests, it's really simple. The thing that makes it reluctant is people not listening & arguably, skill level of field players.
You are profiling the average gamer. Teach with the proper pedagogy with people a little bit interested in some dedicated area/game-mode, works. And that is why I'm asking for such tool in the game. You describe the usual 'point & shoot' type that gets in the chair to try it. Probably because no one would get in the CC at the time.
What I'm suggesting isn't to make a commander out of anybody. On the contrary, some people aren't made for that. If people are interested in commanding, making available teachers and some space to provide lessons will be better than the failure you probably suffered from lately. And it's not limited to commander only. Teachers can truly help on any area.
On a last note. The commander job is kind of more difficult than what you just described. It can be something like that in a game filled with rookies but not at middle to high level. There my friend you have a lot of decision to make, in seconds sometimes.
They need proper lessons. They need a coach. Once they learn it's ok.
And how do you propose that to change? Force commander training on local server for X time before online? Better tutorial videos? Rookie only servers with handicap settings?
There are plenty of ways for people to learn, they just don't have any patience nor give it any effort. Granted, the way rookie commanders are treated is wrong, but that goes both ways when they don't listen to any advice people give them while they're experimenting in the chair. It's quite limited how much they can learn from tutorials, beside that there's nothing to teach nor prevent rookies in the commander position but server rules or mods.
It's not like commanders have to bust a sweat giving orders & communicating with the team, just drop needed buildings & answer requests, it's really simple. The thing that makes it reluctant is people not listening & arguably, skill level of field players.
You are profiling the average gamer. Teach with the proper pedagogy with people a little bit interested in some dedicated area/game-mode, works. And that is why I'm asking for such tool in the game. You describe the usual 'point & shoot' type that gets in the chair to try it. Probably because no one would get in the CC at the time.
What I'm suggesting isn't to make a commander out of anybody. On the contrary, some people aren't made for that. If people are interested in commanding, making available teachers and some space to provide lessons will be better than the failure you probably suffered from lately. And it's not limited to commander only. Teachers can truly help on any area.
On a last note. The commander job is kind of more difficult than what you just described. It can be something like that in a game filled with rookies but not at middle to high level. There my friend you have a lot of decision to make, in seconds sometimes.
They need proper lessons. They need a coach. Once they learn it's ok.
And how do you propose that to change? Force commander training on local server for X time before online? Better tutorial videos? Rookie only servers with handicap settings?
There are plenty of ways for people to learn, they just don't have any patience nor give it any effort. Granted, the way rookie commanders are treated is wrong, but that goes both ways when they don't listen to any advice people give them while they're experimenting in the chair. It's quite limited how much they can learn from tutorials, beside that there's nothing to teach nor prevent rookies in the commander position but server rules or mods.
It's not like commanders have to bust a sweat giving orders & communicating with the team, just drop needed buildings & answer requests, it's really simple. The thing that makes it reluctant is people not listening & arguably, skill level of field players.
You are profiling the average gamer. Teach with the proper pedagogy with people a little bit interested in some dedicated area/game-mode, works. And that is why I'm asking for such tool in the game. You describe the usual 'point & shoot' type that gets in the chair to try it. Probably because no one would get in the CC at the time.
What I'm suggesting isn't to make a commander out of anybody. On the contrary, some people aren't made for that. If people are interested in commanding, making available teachers and some space to provide lessons will be better than the failure you probably suffered from lately. And it's not limited to commander only. Teachers can truly help on any area.
On a last note. The commander job is kind of more difficult than what you just described. It can be something like that in a game filled with rookies but not at middle to high level. There my friend you have a lot of decision to make, in seconds sometimes.
Usually I am just not confident enough. I can do an alight job sometimes, but most of the time there is a better comm willing to comm.
You need training There is a first step... but also a second step.
frankly everyone on this forum is probably in the same boat as me.
if i want the team to win then i should only comm if i'm in the bottom half of shooters/biters on my team.
if i'm on the bottom half of biting or shooting on my team, then i'm also in a game where i'm vastly underqualified to command.
how many people actually feel confident comming a pug team to victory?
I wouldn't even say bottom half. If there are at least 2 people pn my team who I am confident can do better than me that's good enough for me to get in the chair, especially when one of those two would need to be the com otherwise. As alien com there's not really a lot for me to worry about being underqualified for as long as I don't fuck up the basics. Marine I'll usually communicate my skill level beforehand so if they still want me to com I'm not too worried. It's not like I'm going to be that com who forgets a beacon/chair drop and loses the game.
But how many people can actually claim to be a good com, or better at command than shooting? I think I've met a few, but they are few and far between.
It's less "I'm so good" and more "they're so bad".
More or less this. You think you're not a better shooter or biter than 4 randos in a pub? The median playtime of people on the forums is probably in the 500 600 range... For people that post.
I've never met someone with less than 300 that wasn't just meat. And only 2 or 3 with less than 700 that impressed me.
People always say, " time played doesn't mean better player" but seem to forget that lack of causation doesn't mean lack of correlation. Same way I always say, one badge always makes me wary, pax badge. Because it denotes a certain amount of passion, and a certain amount of time.
If you're putting 700 hours into a game, you're either a masochist, or at the least halfway decent at it.
How do you guys even know their playtimes? Do you actively check every player in server? That is why I was heckling supa a bit. There are just so few people with 700+ hours in hive time, I would honestly be impressed if you saw more than once a week if at all. I am surprised you even know the playtime, steam or hive, of the people you play with.
I should note that any reference to hours recorded, or hive hours, is hours in a live game on a hive enabled server. These are not the same hours as steam. These hours are only from when a live game's timer starts until the timer stops with a team winning. Hive only counts games if there are enough players, so low player count games are not recorded.
How do you guys even know their playtimes? Do you actively check every player in server? That is why I was heckling supa a bit. There are just so few people with 700+ hours in hive time, I would honestly be impressed if you saw more than once a week if at all. I am surprised you even know the playtime, steam or hive, of the people you play with.
My point was that the people who play for more than 700 hours are likely the ones who are on the same servers every single day. With the current playerbase, you are almost GUARANTEED to run into at least one of them on any full server.
I don't usually look at times myself though. Hive score, while certainly not an ideal metric, usually gives me a better idea than simple playtime. Plus after seeing the same person for a few weeks I usually know what to expect.
Case in point, when writing this post I joined a game with a 798 and at least 2 in the 650-700 range (close enough), and there's at least one person I was playing with earlier today with almost 1000h. Not that any of those people were bad though. That's hive hours btw, there's quite a discrepancy between hive and steam for various reasons (my steam time is 1210, but my hive time is only 247)
For me I just don't want to command because I know i'm not very good at it.
Oh sure I may know the tech tree, what upgrades to get, and how to do everything. But I'm slow at it, bad at keeping an eye on the map and knowing when to recyst or beacon. I'll easily get caught up doing one thing (like building up a forward base for example) and completely ignore everything else while I'm doing it so that next thing I know I have 70+ Pres and we're behind on tech...
Which wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that we have a LOT of players in this community who will rage hardcore at the commander if they don't do everything PERFECT. Marine commander is especially the worst since you have to not only be quick with medpacks/ammo, but you also have to be quick with upgrades and ever observant to beacon for that base rush.
Nah I'd much rather just be a field player doing my thing. It gets tiring to hop in the hive after waiting 10 minutes for a comm, only to have people start bitching about every little thing you do.
How do you guys even know their playtimes? Do you actively check every player in server? That is why I was heckling supa a bit. There are just so few people with 700+ hours in hive time, I would honestly be impressed if you saw more than once a week if at all. I am surprised you even know the playtime, steam or hive, of the people you play with.
Yes I do check their hours.
How else would I know?
It isn't that hard to check.
And that is why I responded to your holier-than-thou "I'm the god of hive hours" comment.
Perhaps you could share the data publicly so we can all see from what basis your arrogance stems?
Why hide the data?
Yup. Even people with not that many hours in hive can have a ton of hours logged (through non-hive servers, or before hive got reset). As an example, I have 1800 hours logged, but only 200 of them show up in hive. I guarantee you that there are an average of at least 1-2 players on with >700 hours per server.
The exact reason I don't command is because it makes me feel physically ill with frustration when the game asks me to use the interface it presents.
I don't enjoy clicking on each individual thing to control it, and the fixed zoom level really makes my eyes roll around in my head, I get dizzy, and can't continue.
My biggest problem is when you try something new or risky and you get your ear chewed for deviating from the "Plan". I don't want to follow a blueprint game, I like to mix it up.
I'm also a big alien whip fan (they need to do more damage) for lane blocks/defense and I always get grief for that!
I don't enjoy clicking on each individual thing to control it, and the fixed zoom level really makes my eyes roll around in my head, I get dizzy, and can't continue.
*squints. can't tell if trolling*
1. Hotkey buildings (ctrl-1/2/3 etc), you don't have to click on them then
2. Use command hotkeys (qwer,asdf,zxcv) to navigate and select in the command grid
3. Use your map key (default 'c') to bring up the map, and click anywhere you want to go
4. Mouse wheel scrolls zoom level
How do you guys even know their playtimes? Do you actively check every player in server? That is why I was heckling supa a bit. There are just so few people with 700+ hours in hive time, I would honestly be impressed if you saw more than once a week if at all. I am surprised you even know the playtime, steam or hive, of the people you play with.
I should note that any reference to hours recorded, or hive hours, is hours in a live game on a hive enabled server. These are not the same hours as steam. These hours are only from when a live game's timer starts until the timer stops with a team winning. Hive only counts games if there are enough players, so low player count games are not recorded.
how do you not? there's not much else to do sometimes while waiting for a game to start.
I've decided I'm going to have a go. I've been playing the game for ages and always avoided commanding as I get to the point where I don't know what to do next (planwise). When I'm just on the field, I can suggest all sorts of plans though so I guess I just need more time in the chair to get past that mental block. I apologise to everyone now...
Because waypoints are easily ignored because there's no decent audio/visuals for them. Middle-mouse warnings need to be much clearer. Range of options (more than just an exclamation mark), louder audio, brighter icon, different colour if placed by commander, etc, etc.
I've decided I'm going to have a go. I've been playing the game for ages and always avoided commanding as I get to the point where I don't know what to do next (planwise). When I'm just on the field, I can suggest all sorts of plans though so I guess I just need more time in the chair to get past that mental block. I apologise to everyone now...
Do it! Are you on EU servers? I can help you as a field comm.
I don't mind commanding. But when teams are shuffled or forced even. Then I'm usually required to carry on field for the team to win. So if the team is slightly stacked to my side I'll quickly go commander. Hoping that it will balance it out and make for a fun round. Or I'll just go commander and expect to lose.
Because often people don't listen to the commander. With most listening players, with ~6-7 (maybe 8) players in the team it is fun; otherwise it is painful. >8 players you have usually too many rookies and you have to explain everything & repeat instructions = not enough time.
Also the fact that there doesn't seem to have communication/microphone-needed servers as before (there was 1 like 1-2 years ago... people were communicating !!!!).
it's not that i don't want to command, but rather that for my circumstances commanding is not as rewarding/interesting as it used to be because i lost many skills
i used to command a lot. its one of the most unique experiences in gaming, at least on the marine side
it was fun coming up with different strategies to deal with different situations (player counts, player skills, etc.)
you have to basically plan around your team, sometimes not knowing anything about them until several minutes into the game
it took a ton of time to learn where to attack from and assess how likely something was to succeed/fail based on how the match was going. figuring out how to manage resources drew on all my knowledge and experience. i developed some understanding of where the windows of opportunity were.
then the game went through a ton of major changes and i didn't play enough to keep up with all of them, and making those assessments is basically impossible without relearning everything because everything i used to know is no longer accurate.
i'm not talking about the mechanics of dropping meds and ammo or using the interface
it's the whole decision-making about whether to arc a hive or spend the money on something else. it's about deciding what upgrades to prioritize. it's about figuring out whether to coordinate offense or defense. it's about guessing whether a res tower will actually live long enough to be worth the investment. it's about counting how much res the enemy has so you know exactly what to expect & when to expect it instead of realizing after the fact that you should have done something else
i don't have enough data to make those decisions accurately anymore so I do more combat things.
if i do end up being in the chair, it's just as an instrument to buy stuff and tell people what's happening. it's not really commanding anymore
Commanding is as much fun as the individuals you are playing with.
I had terrible rounds balance wise but people still listened and we made a major rush to a hive which lost us the game. However, we went in glory and we had fun. I am a less than mediocre commander because I have not invested the time to be really good at it but another reason is the constant whining of people for stuff you did not get or cannot afford because the same people want to get showered in med packs. I dont mind it anymore but if I would start out commanding and people would constantly insult or bother me for my lack of skill I would r-quit the role.
Another thing which makes commanding boring is the lack of interest in trying new strategies. If you dont follow the god-given tech path you are judged as incompetent. No initiative to experiment which results in repeating the same over and over and over. I understand that people on the field want a good playing experience but this just results in a boring and repetetive chore. This can also be said about comp by the way. The most exciting change I have experience was the GL and HMG tactic by Crazy Cats team. I would love more options for strategy. Only competitve commanding gave me an introduction to the job and made me like it to some extent because I have a connection with the people I am actually commanding. Pub commanding before that was just an terrible experience and sometimes still is.
I see lots of people commenting that commanding is not fun because of other players. @warforce17 is very correct that commanding is much more fun depending on who you play with.
Ns2 is a good game on its own, but what makes it great is who you play with. When you find a community or group that has the same expectations from a game of ns2, you all strive to make the game what you want it to be. Every regular on woozas servers expects a certain kind of gameplay more than just an insane amount of players. Together they make the game more fun. This is true with other communities like DMD, TGNS, LF and even comp ns2.
When you can recognize half the players on a server, not by their nameplate over their head, but how they move... that adds depth. When you engage each player differently because you know who they are. When you use a certain strategy because you know the other commander favors arcs. When you ambush a certain way because you know they always check that one corner. When you know that two of the enemy team like to try and sneak in and kill upgrades, and you prepare for it. When you simply run away as a skulk to bite res instead of engaging, or position yourself better in preparation as a marine... that is depth.
Ns2 is fun on its own. If you find a community to enjoy ns2 with, it is 10x better. It also makes going back to any other server that much harder, because you know how good ns2 can be.
Copied, pasted, and then edited from my post history.
True but that's the same with any game. Knowing the way people play and wanting to be part of a community for the inevitable LOLz regardless of the winz was a major reason why I played CS1.6 for years and years on the same server.
I agree, it is the same with any game and a strong community. It is easier to find a good game in CS. Ns2 has strict requirements for what most would consider a good game. Because of this, I think that the communities of ns2 make up for that weakness of ns2.
Comments
You are profiling the average gamer. Teach with the proper pedagogy with people a little bit interested in some dedicated area/game-mode, works. And that is why I'm asking for such tool in the game. You describe the usual 'point & shoot' type that gets in the chair to try it. Probably because no one would get in the CC at the time.
What I'm suggesting isn't to make a commander out of anybody. On the contrary, some people aren't made for that. If people are interested in commanding, making available teachers and some space to provide lessons will be better than the failure you probably suffered from lately. And it's not limited to commander only. Teachers can truly help on any area.
On a last note. The commander job is kind of more difficult than what you just described. It can be something like that in a game filled with rookies but not at middle to high level. There my friend you have a lot of decision to make, in seconds sometimes.
You need training
frankly everyone on this forum is probably in the same boat as me.
if i want the team to win then i should only comm if i'm in the bottom half of shooters/biters on my team.
if i'm on the bottom half of biting or shooting on my team, then i'm also in a game where i'm vastly underqualified to command.
how many people actually feel confident comming a pug team to victory?
I wouldn't even say bottom half. If there are at least 2 people pn my team who I am confident can do better than me that's good enough for me to get in the chair, especially when one of those two would need to be the com otherwise. As alien com there's not really a lot for me to worry about being underqualified for as long as I don't fuck up the basics. Marine I'll usually communicate my skill level beforehand so if they still want me to com I'm not too worried. It's not like I'm going to be that com who forgets a beacon/chair drop and loses the game.
But how many people can actually claim to be a good com, or better at command than shooting? I think I've met a few, but they are few and far between.
with little to back it up too lolll
It's less "I'm so good" and more "they're so bad".
More or less this. You think you're not a better shooter or biter than 4 randos in a pub? The median playtime of people on the forums is probably in the 500 600 range... For people that post.
I've never met someone with less than 300 that wasn't just meat. And only 2 or 3 with less than 700 that impressed me.
People always say, " time played doesn't mean better player" but seem to forget that lack of causation doesn't mean lack of correlation. Same way I always say, one badge always makes me wary, pax badge. Because it denotes a certain amount of passion, and a certain amount of time.
If you're putting 700 hours into a game, you're either a masochist, or at the least halfway decent at it.
I should note that any reference to hours recorded, or hive hours, is hours in a live game on a hive enabled server. These are not the same hours as steam. These hours are only from when a live game's timer starts until the timer stops with a team winning. Hive only counts games if there are enough players, so low player count games are not recorded.
My point was that the people who play for more than 700 hours are likely the ones who are on the same servers every single day. With the current playerbase, you are almost GUARANTEED to run into at least one of them on any full server.
I don't usually look at times myself though. Hive score, while certainly not an ideal metric, usually gives me a better idea than simple playtime. Plus after seeing the same person for a few weeks I usually know what to expect.
Case in point, when writing this post I joined a game with a 798 and at least 2 in the 650-700 range (close enough), and there's at least one person I was playing with earlier today with almost 1000h. Not that any of those people were bad though. That's hive hours btw, there's quite a discrepancy between hive and steam for various reasons (my steam time is 1210, but my hive time is only 247)
Oh sure I may know the tech tree, what upgrades to get, and how to do everything. But I'm slow at it, bad at keeping an eye on the map and knowing when to recyst or beacon. I'll easily get caught up doing one thing (like building up a forward base for example) and completely ignore everything else while I'm doing it so that next thing I know I have 70+ Pres and we're behind on tech...
Which wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that we have a LOT of players in this community who will rage hardcore at the commander if they don't do everything PERFECT. Marine commander is especially the worst since you have to not only be quick with medpacks/ammo, but you also have to be quick with upgrades and ever observant to beacon for that base rush.
Nah I'd much rather just be a field player doing my thing. It gets tiring to hop in the hive after waiting 10 minutes for a comm, only to have people start bitching about every little thing you do.
Yes I do check their hours.
How else would I know?
It isn't that hard to check.
And that is why I responded to your holier-than-thou "I'm the god of hive hours" comment.
Perhaps you could share the data publicly so we can all see from what basis your arrogance stems?
Why hide the data?
I don't enjoy clicking on each individual thing to control it, and the fixed zoom level really makes my eyes roll around in my head, I get dizzy, and can't continue.
I'm also a big alien whip fan (they need to do more damage) for lane blocks/defense and I always get grief for that!
God I love this game!
1. Hotkey buildings (ctrl-1/2/3 etc), you don't have to click on them then
2. Use command hotkeys (qwer,asdf,zxcv) to navigate and select in the command grid
3. Use your map key (default 'c') to bring up the map, and click anywhere you want to go
4. Mouse wheel scrolls zoom level
how do you not? there's not much else to do sometimes while waiting for a game to start.
and meant 700 hours steam, hive time is wierd.
Do it! Are you on EU servers? I can help you as a field comm.
Also the fact that there doesn't seem to have communication/microphone-needed servers as before (there was 1 like 1-2 years ago... people were communicating !!!!).
i used to command a lot. its one of the most unique experiences in gaming, at least on the marine side
it was fun coming up with different strategies to deal with different situations (player counts, player skills, etc.)
you have to basically plan around your team, sometimes not knowing anything about them until several minutes into the game
it took a ton of time to learn where to attack from and assess how likely something was to succeed/fail based on how the match was going. figuring out how to manage resources drew on all my knowledge and experience. i developed some understanding of where the windows of opportunity were.
then the game went through a ton of major changes and i didn't play enough to keep up with all of them, and making those assessments is basically impossible without relearning everything because everything i used to know is no longer accurate.
i'm not talking about the mechanics of dropping meds and ammo or using the interface
it's the whole decision-making about whether to arc a hive or spend the money on something else. it's about deciding what upgrades to prioritize. it's about figuring out whether to coordinate offense or defense. it's about guessing whether a res tower will actually live long enough to be worth the investment. it's about counting how much res the enemy has so you know exactly what to expect & when to expect it instead of realizing after the fact that you should have done something else
i don't have enough data to make those decisions accurately anymore so I do more combat things.
if i do end up being in the chair, it's just as an instrument to buy stuff and tell people what's happening. it's not really commanding anymore
I had terrible rounds balance wise but people still listened and we made a major rush to a hive which lost us the game. However, we went in glory and we had fun. I am a less than mediocre commander because I have not invested the time to be really good at it but another reason is the constant whining of people for stuff you did not get or cannot afford because the same people want to get showered in med packs. I dont mind it anymore but if I would start out commanding and people would constantly insult or bother me for my lack of skill I would r-quit the role.
Another thing which makes commanding boring is the lack of interest in trying new strategies. If you dont follow the god-given tech path you are judged as incompetent. No initiative to experiment which results in repeating the same over and over and over. I understand that people on the field want a good playing experience but this just results in a boring and repetetive chore. This can also be said about comp by the way. The most exciting change I have experience was the GL and HMG tactic by Crazy Cats team. I would love more options for strategy. Only competitve commanding gave me an introduction to the job and made me like it to some extent because I have a connection with the people I am actually commanding. Pub commanding before that was just an terrible experience and sometimes still is.
Ns2 is a good game on its own, but what makes it great is who you play with. When you find a community or group that has the same expectations from a game of ns2, you all strive to make the game what you want it to be. Every regular on woozas servers expects a certain kind of gameplay more than just an insane amount of players. Together they make the game more fun. This is true with other communities like DMD, TGNS, LF and even comp ns2.
When you can recognize half the players on a server, not by their nameplate over their head, but how they move... that adds depth. When you engage each player differently because you know who they are. When you use a certain strategy because you know the other commander favors arcs. When you ambush a certain way because you know they always check that one corner. When you know that two of the enemy team like to try and sneak in and kill upgrades, and you prepare for it. When you simply run away as a skulk to bite res instead of engaging, or position yourself better in preparation as a marine... that is depth.
Ns2 is fun on its own. If you find a community to enjoy ns2 with, it is 10x better. It also makes going back to any other server that much harder, because you know how good ns2 can be.
Copied, pasted, and then edited from my post history.
"Because the stupid Hive system won't let me as I have < 40 hours since it was integrated, despite having 600 hours on Steam"