The Siege Feels So Unfair :-(

MicroneisaDMicroneisaD Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9161Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Some thoughts</div> I think the siege is a very unfair element. Maybe you should decrease health/power on alien structures in
return but something have to be done with the siege.
Its fully automated, shoots through walls and have a very long effective range. It just doesnt make sense, the marines was given guns and grenadelaunchers, why not take down alien defence like it is supposed to be done?
All they do now is find a room in the center, build sieges, lots of turrets, 2 factorys and then they leave the automated-super guns to destroy everything in a large area. Is that really fun? I dont know, maybe for marine players it is. To stand in a room and hear every little alien building being blowned away.
I like to take out alien structures with teammates, and guns, you know, those you have to use yourself?
As alien i feel there is no fun in being a gorge anymore, whats the meaning of putting up alot of defense when they will just destroy it from the room 3 miles away?? Its depressing.

I am pretty sure it wont be taken away, so i will suggest a idea i have come up with.
First of all, the effective firerange have to be reduced slightly. I think sieges should be a gun you should use to stop alien clog offence chambers just outside your outpost or door. Not the destroy-everything-on-half-map gun.

Ok the idea, the siege gun have to be operated by a marine to be able to shoot. By pressing Use key on it.
And thats not all, you should have to reload it also. So it will mean you have to build an ammo depot near, wich will maybe stop marines from putting those farking towers everywhere. So you have to stand near it, fire it with E, after a while run to nearest ammo depot, get siegegun ammo (energycells?? <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )

This will not make it the automated super-mega gun of the game but only the manualy driven super-mega gun.

What do you think?
No flaming please. And if you think my spelling sucks keep in mind that english is not my first language.
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Comments

  • BridgerBridger Join Date: 2002-10-30 Member: 1761Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Microneisa:D+Nov 26 2002, 11:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Microneisa:D @ Nov 26 2002, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All they do now is find a room in the center, build sieges, lots of turrets, 2 factorys and then they leave the automated-super guns to destroy everything in a large area.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    why didn't you stop them when they only entered the room? It takes time to upgrade to seige. If they are building somewhere near you it's your job to know about it.

    <u><b>As an alien you should know where every marine outpost/expansion is at all times</b></u>

    Also what about xenocide? 800 dammage to marine structures and that's WITHOUT upgrading ANYTHING. Combined with bile bomb it can tear through a marine base just as fast as a seige can take out alien base.
  • creaping_deathcreaping_death Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8008Members
    ummm dosn't do any damge i saw two people run and explode on a resouce tower the health did not move one bit
  • Mr_BeanMr_Bean Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7943Members
    Fokes it takes roughly 15 Seconds for a TF to be built by one person then thirty seconds for it to upgrade, even assuming 5 people and it being built in Five seconds thats still 35 Seconds to kill that TF which you can even as a lowly skulk in 10 seconds of biting or kill the Marines who still have to spend 10-20 seconds building the segies...
  • CForresterCForrester P0rk(h0p Join Date: 2002-10-05 Member: 1439Members, Constellation
    The only things I'd like to change about the siege is that it should have a smaller splash range and should damage friendly things. It's no skin off my back if it's not changed, but I'd like it.
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    Actaully, having a marine having to 'use' a siege cannon for it to fire is one of the few half decent ideas i've heard regarding sieges. Most just want to remove it or nerf it in some silly way. It seems like a good idea at first.

    BUUUTTTTT.....

    It's difficult enough to get marines to follow simple orders on a pub servers as it is at the moment. How many would be willing to stand there for 1-2 mins doing nothing else but holding their use key ? Not many i'd bet. Simply wouldn't work for that reason.
  • HellbillyHellbilly A whole title out of pity... Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3931Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Sieges aren´t a problem for me anymore. At early game, their weapons are weak and they are hurt bad if you skulk rush it and take out the equipment they were setting up. Skulking a small outpost like that isn´t that hard when you are 2-3 going at it constantly.

    In later game, their siege outposts are bigger and better equiped, but at that point you should have a few Fades and a Lerk and then it´s easy to take them out.

    Remember that the Turret Factory is always the weakest link in a marine outpost, then you should go after the phase gate.
  • BytorBytor Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9323Members
    edited November 2002
    The siege may seem inbalanced at first glance, but at least in my experience, the aliens are still winning the majority of the games.

    We did get beat by the marines on one match last night though. It was nice to see the pathetic meatpops win for once. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DemerzelDemerzel Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9181Members
    sieges are powerful but they need to be to do their job. the negatives for them are that the build time including turret factory, advancing that tf, placing turrets and finally the siege is long enough for most aliens to trash that base first. Far too often by the time the commander has upgraded the siege turret we're fighting off increasing number of alien skulks/fades and have real trouble making progress.

    even if marines do win and move on then any abandoned marine mini-base can be overrun by determined aliens very quickly leaving the area free again.
  • MoroseMorose Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5961Members
    Siege is fine right now IMHO. Will it still be fine once the splash damage is fixed in 1.03? Guess we'll see. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DemerzelDemerzel Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9181Members
    well siege turret might get more powerful in the server side patch 1.03 but bile bombs will be working too and the balance should remain.

    siege turrets will wipe things out rapidly and fades will wipe them out rapidly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • RazorClawRazorClaw Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7413Members
    edited November 2002
    Well I never notice the marines before it's too late when Im an alien, should sensor chambers show up marines close to them? Well they don't for me, nor does motion tracking show anything for me. I usually notice the siege outposts either when the first siege cannon shot hits or when I run into 6+ turrets with 4+ HA marines building stuff.

    I really hate siege cannons grrr siege cannons are actually cheap, it's only the TF upgrade that is expensive... it's no problem putting down 2-3 siege cannons next to a hive, and it is EXTREMLY unlikely that you can take em down before they have blow anything within their range to bits. You go on about how easy it is to take out an outpost with lerk + fade,... well it aint easy at all if the outpost is backed up by a HA + GL marine and maybe another HA + HMG marine, especially if they have a phase gate in the base then it's downright impossible. (to take it out in time that is)

    On certain maps one well fortified base with siege cannons in it can prevent aliens from building any resouce towers in 2-3 places wich basically screw em bigtime. One well placed (if it can take out 2 bases, sometimes they can) 15 RP cannon can take out 500 RP of alien structures easily. For example on nancy if the marines have mess hall they can take out atleast 2 resouce nozzle with siege cannons from that place + stop the aliens from setting up a base in mess hall itself. Thats 3 resouces under marine control from building siege in one area.
  • RazorClawRazorClaw Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7413Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Demerzel+Nov 26 2002, 11:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Demerzel @ Nov 26 2002, 11:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->well siege turret might get more powerful in the server side patch 1.03 but bile bombs will be working too and the balance should remain.

    siege turrets will wipe things out rapidly and fades will wipe them out rapidly <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It takes a player to control a fade, there is no limit how many siege cannons there can be.
  • DemerzelDemerzel Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9181Members
    well mebbe there should be? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->

    i do agree that some commanders abuse the system and just throw up siege and normal turrets in huge quantities. This should be prevented as it does not help the game in the slightest to have to try and take down 15 or 20 turrets in a small location like the gap between feedwater hive and atmos processing on ns_bast(?)
  • Bishop_GantryBishop_Gantry Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6861Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Bridger+Nov 26 2002, 10:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bridger @ Nov 26 2002, 10:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Microneisa:D+Nov 26 2002, 11:02 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Microneisa:D @ Nov 26 2002, 11:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All they do now is find a room in the center, build sieges, lots of turrets, 2 factorys and then they leave the automated-super guns to destroy everything in a large area.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    why didn't you stop them when they only entered the room? It takes time to upgrade to seige. If they are building somewhere near you it's your job to know about it.

    <u><b>As an alien you should know where every marine outpost/expansion is at all times</b></u>

    Also what about xenocide? 800 dammage to marine structures and that's WITHOUT upgrading ANYTHING. Combined with bile bomb it can tear through a marine base just as fast as a seige can take out alien base.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    you didnt read the part where he said he preffers to play as gorge...

    on some maps siege cannons can be placed on the other room just opposite of the hive only problem is to get to them you must run across half the map... sometimes trough the marines base and their turret farms aswell...
  • Y3tiY3ti Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7853Members
    edited November 2002
    If a commander can afford to slap down a mini base with sieges and with turrets and give marines HA and GLs. he must be doing something right, and you must of **obscenity** up somewhere along the line.

    Tf= 25
    T= 19x 4 = 76
    TFupgrade= what 35
    Siegeturret= 15, (I've seen it at 25? maybe I'm on drugs)
    166 Rp.

    Now lets break down HA marines.

    Ha= 25
    HMG=25
    GL=33
    Welder=10

    so a HA+HMG+welder= 60.
    HA+GL+Welder=78

    Once again, the commander must be doing something right, and you must of **obscenity** up some where.

    Now that I think of it!

    this isn't including if the commander decides to place down a phse gate and a armory
  • AlarikAlarik Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9326Members
    also, ask yourself this:

    about what percentage of games do you see marines winning?

    about what percentage of even those games, few as they are, were won without relying heavily on siege

    marines are screwed enough as it is, leave alone the only good thing they have left <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • mRWafflesmRWaffles Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4713Members
    From my experience it isn't the siege thats the problem. It's the lack of fades to deal with that siege =P . I've played many games where the aliens are left with skulks and can't ever get to the other hives. Once aliens get the second hive it is perfectly fair, but the marines virtually always get the siege first.
  • Frogg2Frogg2 Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4867Members, Constellation
    Some maps need to be adjusted for the siege for example @ bast the marines can setup a few sieges in the corner closest to the Engine room hive and take out more than 1/2 the alien base their in the comfort of their own base, lucklily for the aliens its range isnt far enough to hit the hive.
  • skypaskypa Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4074Members
    I'm an quite skilled alien player myself, but I can't hear more complaints of my teammates, how bad and evil and unfair these siege cannons are. Hell, at least give something to the marines, or isn't it enough to win nearly every game. If the moment is reached, where aliens can practically storm every public game, the time of public-playing is over for me, and I'm sure some other ppl agree with that.
  • MisfireMisfire Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5764Members
    The siege is fine , if anything it needs more HP. We had sentries with our sieges and skuls just went up to siege and just bit it down.

    And all fades have to do is acid rocket them or TF and all sieges are gone.
  • DemerzelDemerzel Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9181Members
    my problem is more with the turret. its got to be cheap for the start of the game or marines are in real trouble. However, by the end of the game the marine commander can sometimes ignore HA + HMG for his troops ( 50rps ) and slap down 3 turrets instead. this is what makes the end game so dull for aliens with turrets everywhere, esp. on bast where sieges in main base can reach so far and prevent any healing defence chambers being nearby.
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    Siege feels unfair sometimes, but then I realize we usually kick Marine **obscenity** anyway. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->

    Last game I played where the Marines were actually good they used sieges. On Eclipse I think. We started in the Comp Core, then we expanded to Maintenance Acess. They started to siege that hive, but with teamwork we brought it down. Next they started to siege Comp Core, but with fades up, it was even easier to bring it down. Long story short, if you get all your aliens rushing the TF when they start a siege, you can take it out no problem at all.

    Aliens still require SOME degree of teamwork to function. Although you can solo a few marines on your own as a skulk, once they start putting up sieges, your team had better pull together fast and take them down. Or it's good night.
  • FantasmoFantasmo Join Date: 2002-11-06 Member: 7369Members
    It seem obvious the "Shoot-though-walls-Siege" was put into the game after the maps were designed.

    I agree that the only thing that needs to be changed is that on certain maps a siege set up in the marine base should not hit a hive, I don't think that's cool.

    What do you guys think of the "Siege Crawling Strategy"?
  • WingWangManWingWangMan Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5856Members
    Siege crawling? ...well it really depends on the situation... and if you got the resources to spend on it
  • devilblocksdevilblocks Join Date: 2002-02-04 Member: 162Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Marines would almost never win if the siege cannon wasn't in (or without serious changes to marine / alien stats). Just try to get into a heavily defended hive with tons of O and D towers set up (not to mention webs should there be at least 2 hives).
  • SuperSammoSuperSammo Join Date: 2002-02-21 Member: 231Members
    edited November 2002
    The biggest problem IMO with siege is that it is one of the ONLY valid marine winning tactics that has arisen. Thus just about each and every game a commander must (or feels he must) build up siege to take on anything from a hive to a guarded res point.

    The biggest problem I have found with marines in general are the commanders that want to sit and fortify their base with 10000 leet turrets. Not only are turret usually ineffective at stopping the aliens (they are meant to slow them) they also cost heaps. I'd much rather have 2-3 turrets at base (and a couple of mines) and have 2, 3 or 4 resource towers (even undefended ones).

    Once during my commanding games, (with a group of obedient soldiers) we built up an armoury and a turret factory and 2 turrets. Meanwhile I had 1-2 marines scout the hives, and then we rushed the main one. Needless to say destroying the hive set them back a fair bit, however they managed to get another first hive up and not soon after we had just about all the res pts on the map and tech galore. From here it just turned into the normal win with siege.

    IMO, this is why siege seems overpowered. Marines 99% of the time use siege which requires a well timed attack (and some decent firepower) to destroy.
  • Bishop_GantryBishop_Gantry Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6861Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--devilblocks+Nov 26 2002, 03:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (devilblocks @ Nov 26 2002, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines would almost never win if the siege cannon wasn't in (or without serious changes to marine / alien stats). Just try to get into a heavily defended hive with tons of O and D towers set up (not to mention webs should there be at least 2 hives).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    yeah its called HMG and peeking around corners swatting down O and D chambers liek there was no tomorrow...

    good they have masses of O and D chambers less of your rounds will go to waste...
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    edited November 2002
    I do not think Siege is the <i>Only</i> valid tatic, just the easiest. In the initial release grenades did a better job at destroying buildings and I rarely saw a siege cannon. People are lazy. Look at all the cookie cutter D2 characters out there. They just want to win at all costs and as fast as possible. Siege is the fast, easy answer. If properly hidden, it only takes 1 marine to take down a whole hive and its defenses. Siege is also easily overcome. I played in a game where I was a Gorge and had 2 Fades and a Lerk with me. I spammed healing spray, the lerk spammed umbra. and the Fades spammed Rockets. We creeped along as a unit and <u>obliterated</u> a marine team holding the third hive. Yes they had siege in place in the hive, and a forest of turrets.
  • DoombringerDoombringer Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8679Members, Constellation
    edited November 2002
    And once they "fix" bile-bomb and whatever else for the aliens, things will shift back towards the alien side. The marines are already underpowered, unless the entire team is comprised of uber-players or they siege-crawl. The latter requires tons of RPs anyway.. all the time it takes to get those RPs equals more time for the aliens to build their hive, etc, etc.

    Just played a game where siege did NO damage to a small cluster of 2 def chambers and 2 offense chambers. 4 siege cannons, all firing on that position, no damage. Go fig.
  • ShingyBoyShingyBoy Join Date: 2002-11-17 Member: 9086Members
    Personally it does nothing for me i mean so far i go on random team everytime i go into a ns game to make things fare and we win anyways even if they got sieges to stop some chambers there we still manage to pull through really i think some of these issues are just not to be contempt with
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