Never said it was a complete idea, just a way to slow the snowball effect!
Nubs would benefit the most, imo. If they can land just 1 bullet/bite/heal when that player dies, they'd get a part of that bonus.
And as far as suidicing...well thats been used as a reason not to do a whole lot of things, like granting 1 free hand grenade on spawn. I still believe that players will not willingly spend time in a respawn queue and lose their lifeform/equipment just to abuse a mechanic....and its a simple thing to determine when someone died from a player or from a console command.
Learning the game hot is the way to go. If you're the type of player who reads the guide instead of sticking the game in...good for you.
And that has failed us for years now, so it's time to do what every other game out there does.
The #1 source of frustration that leads to not playing again based on all the feedback from forums and steam etc is the steep learning curve (with no access to learning) and being stomped.
This elegant solution of gating rookies into a training environment until they are comfortable solves both of those. They are two quick and very easy tutorials that walk the player through the very basics. If they can't be bothered to go through the bare minimum then they can enjoy training in Rookie Only servers against bots. (that resolves your concern over player numbers to fill servers for Rookies)
So if someone wants to learn the game "hot" then they still can.. but they will be relegated to playing with other Rookies and bots.
Everyone has helped Rookies in servers for years now, but getting asked the most simple/basic stuff over and over again that can be otherwise more effectively taught through a tutorial is just unnecessary.
I know that when i get frustrated playing a game that other seem to be good at, i look up guides and tutorials to help me understand what I am doing wrong (done the for pretty much every MOBA ive ever played)
So yeah, I always start with the "trial by fire" approach, and if its too much, I do research and practise vs bots.
If NS2 had this, I feel it would go a LONG way to player retention.
We don't even have the player count to divide nubs from the complainers of nubs. This game is held together by nubs and players trying to hold onto these nubs. Trying to force tutorials on players because semi serious players want to play on a free adminless server uninteruppted by nubs is not the style of sale and support that some may have hoped for...
Lets say there 15 servers populated primetime.
Im sure you have rookies, average and vets on EVERY of these 15. White or green server doesnt matter.
So what would be the problem if each of these 3 skill levels had to play on there servers?
Everyone would have much more fun and less complain.
Sorry, but i will never stop with my mantra:
Get rid of these >24 clusterfuck finally.
They are not saving NS2, they are part of the problem that the game is losing players, plus people learn nothing on them.
Im sure over 80% of the games there are Marine wins and the only way to win as alien a sneaky tunnel to base.
Every round.
There 4 servers right now over 24 in the EU.
2*42 and 2*36
These 4 server would be 12 18 slot, wich is an perfect slotammount for pub in my opinion.
So, more filled servers=more room to split players by skill.
Plus the serverbrowser would not look so empty=the game looks more alive.
Im sure many starting the game, see 7 filled servers, joining one of the clusterfucks, didnt enjoy it and thats it.
"game is dead anyway"-deinstall.
Maybe you can bring these servers back when you reached your goal, wich is: more players.
Meanwhile people can make special maps for these large server, so you dont have to play on Tram for example (wich is a joke with this playerammount)
Make "Tutorial Mode" available in real time. The present wait to spawn videos are not that great. They show eating power nodes, dodging sentries, gorge throwing bile at an arms lab. All part of the game, but tell a new marine to destroy a crag, veil, or spur is silly.
e.g., Marine Start - Marine commander drops a extractor.
The new player gets a bubble in the HUD: "New resource extractor (RT) dropped in Logistics" Maybe in a window, with a scroll bar to give more information: "Press Map Button to see location. It will appear as a blue print until you start to build it with Build Button. Once built it will give you 1 resource per minute and your team 10 resources per minute. Protect it!"
Marine commander drops Arms lab. "Arms lab dropped in Shipping" - "Build the Arms lab fast! So you can get automatic upgrades to your weapons and armor!" - "Weapon 1 (with icon) started! In 80 seconds your Assault Rifle will do 10% more damage!"
You spawn as a Skulk - "Parasite to mark marines for your team, push key 1" "Alien commander has seeded a Spur. In less than two minutes you can choose Celerity (speed) or Adrenaline (energy) bonus by evolving the trait by pushing X."
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2015
Ah, and another thing wich is SUUUUPER annoying.
Find a way to simplify shuffle modes or force it.
Example why:
People joining teams wich end 2300 skill marines and 900 aliens with 4 rookies.
"Shuffle please"
5 voting for it, vote end
"Hit M->shuffle"
7 voting for it, vote end
1st people start to leave the server
Someone start a ingamevote
9/10 hitting f1
Another 2 leaving the server
"Press M-> shuffle. Look at the skill difference"
Finally it works.
People pressing f4 cause they dont want to play the side there put in
From here you can repeat the above multiple times someteimes.
After all this waste of time.
The great waiting for the com start.
Nooone wants and a green jumps in.
"Eject"
Done
Waiting
After 10 min the one with the highest skill points jumps in only to start the game.
"Hurray"
Problem is, the skill is balanced around him and now he is missing on the field.
Especial on alienside this is a huge problem.
Result, game is over after 5 min.
So after the annoying and boring waiting for the roundstart you have nonstop one sided boring rounds.
-deinstall
This would be also solved with my idea from my last post.
- "Rookie only servers" dont need shuffle, people can play whatever they want.
- "Normal pub server" have forced shuffle with an algorithmus like in Evolve, where you can choose your favorite side and server trys to put you on that as often as possible.
- "Vet servers" can shuffle by themself
We don't even have the player count to divide nubs from the complainers of nubs. This game is held together by nubs and players trying to hold onto these nubs. Trying to force tutorials on players because semi serious players want to play on a free adminless server uninteruppted by nubs is not the style of sale and support that some may have hoped for...
Lets say there 15 servers populated primetime.
Im sure you have rookies, average and vets on EVERY of these 15. White or green server doesnt matter.
So what would be the problem if each of these 3 skill levels had to play on there servers?
Everyone would have much more fun and less complain.
Sorry, but i will never stop with my mantra:
Get rid of these >24 clusterfuck finally.
They are not saving NS2, they are part of the problem that the game is losing players, plus people learn nothing on them.
Im sure over 80% of the games there are Marine wins and the only way to win as alien a sneaky tunnel to base.
Every round.
There 4 servers right now over 24 in the EU.
2*42 and 2*36
These 4 server would be 12 18 slot, wich is an perfect slotammount for pub in my opinion.
So, more filled servers=more room to split players by skill.
Plus the serverbrowser would not look so empty=the game looks more alive.
Im sure many starting the game, see 7 filled servers, joining one of the clusterfucks, didnt enjoy it and thats it.
"game is dead anyway"-deinstall.
Maybe you can bring these servers back when you reached your goal, wich is: more players.
Meanwhile people can make special maps for these large server, so you dont have to play on Tram for example (wich is a joke with this playerammount)
While I personally don't like the playstyle of the high numbers servers (I refuse to play on servers with more than 20 slots) the one thing I will point out is this.
They get games started... the reason people play on those servers is because they are guaranteed to jump in and just play, no delays... no waiting for a comm for 20 minutes... with 42 people on the server finding 2 people to command is a pretty easy task.
Yes that is a 21 vs 21 player server which doesn't fall into my enjoyment zone, my personal enjoyment is 6 vs 6 ideally... but to get all 42 people split up into servers of 12 you would need 7 of those people to command, instead of 2.
Thats 3 + 1/2 games worth of people... so lets just say they populate 7 vs 7 servers instead... making it an even 3 servers, meaning 6 commanders... the delay between games is instantly increased due to more people having to command.
People are impatient, they don't want to wait, so while I don't personally play on the high pop servers, I respect the fact that they do bring something to NS2... the "instant play" style of game that a lot of people want.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2015
Did i write something about forcing them to play on 12 slots?
No.
18 slots with 2 spec slots by default (i like this feature btw. Ppl can watch a game and learn something)
This plus forced teams like i mentioned above and noone has to wait.
The Gplay server (i was playing on it a few rounds before the admin increased the slot ammount) is forcing teams.
I heard no complains and games start very quickly compare to the "pls, vote shufffle" circle.
So in the end it would be more enjoyable for people to com again.
If the global goal is:
How can we make the game more attractive for players, you have to rethink about the current status.
And the current status is: These clusterfuck servers didnt save NS2 from losing players.
And if we lose lets say 40 players, cause they dont want to play on smaller servers but we can gather and hold 200 new players with an more rookie friendly environment where they can learn things and have an good transition to higher skill play, we have reached the goal cause these people telling there friends about how awesome NS2 is.
In the moment i see many people (like me) coming back to NS2.
Dont know why
But what i also see are old problems and i realize again why i stopped playing it.
Most rounds are not fun and frustrating most of the time cause the HUGE skill difference on each server. This plus the current serversituation drives me away again.
Losing 14 games in a row cause the whole alienteam has no clue about it (yes, higher skills also. I call this wooza effect) is not funny.
"the reason people play on those servers is because they are guaranteed to jump in and just play, no delays"
No, most play on them cause there always up, cause they reached the critical point later where the server dies.
And if people like the more TDM style, well, include combat again into NS2 like i mentioned in another thread.
Voila.
And btw:
Many, many many people want a matchmaking system.
This can only work with a skill-split and this can only work with more smaller instead a few large servers.
Other players want a gather system included into the game. Its the same, doesnt work with clusterfuck.
People are impatient, they don't want to wait, so while I don't personally play on the high pop servers, I respect the fact that they do bring something to NS2... the "instant play" style of game that a lot of people want.
And this is what it boils down to.
Depara thinks that more servers with fewer slots and longer start times > few, big servers, short start times.
There is not going to be a universal agreement on this ever.
I agree with depara. I think Wooza like servers massively screw up distribution of players in the community and slow down player progression to be better. I think if we had more servers with fewer people on, we could more easily distribute skill into high skilled, med skilled, low skilled servers. The admins would have to work together tirelessly to enforce skill kicks, but I think @SantaClaws has correctly identified (and repeated) that the biggest problem in ns2 is the skill disparities between players in servers.
Hey NS2 community!! I haven't been back here in a long time.
The issue that is most concerning and has always been outside of the bad netcode was and still is the basic movement. If you are looking to get the biggest bang for your buck you need to address the movement and physics aspect of movement in NS2. I brought this up during beta and it was ignored on behalf of people who were obsessed with exploits from NS1 (bunnyhopping).
The movement in this game needs to be intuitive and not have hidden mechanics, this in of it self is a fallacy in NS2 design philosophy.
Making one key stroke mistake in this game or poor map design that causes clipping can almost guarantee death as an alien. Also redesigning the base movement/physics code could help a lot with prediction on both code side and player perception of real time events.
For skulks, bouncing off certain surfaces at the right time really shouldn't be a benefit and makes balancing for the average player a nightmare and NS2 has demonstrated this perfectly. They have a superior movement ability it is called leap. So pretty much eliminate the hidden speed boost mechanics that can be effected by a lot of non player control aspects of the game (map/player clipping, server hicup...).
This goes for all life forms as well as the marines. This will go along way for new and veteran players it helps eliminate a lot of the games mechanics/flaws that cause frustration.
I'm sure there is a lot of other tweaks that could happen but they would require a lot of balancing and only improve the game in one aspect.
A game to refer to that has been trying to tackle movement issues is Warframe. They have revamped a system and made it far more intuitive then it use to be.
As I said before this has multiple avenues of improving NS2 for more then just one side.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2015
Well wooza, your stats looking cool and show whats the problem is with your server.
Im sure that most of the Alienwins are the result of an sneaky tunnel. I played a few rounds there, i know what im talking about. Sad that this part is missing in the stats.
With an half competenet marineteam its nearly impossible to lose on an 42 slot server.
Thats what i say, people learn nothing in that environment. And in the long run this is killing NS2.
Radimax ist the best example btw.
2600 skill points? Hmm, no.
I know its great to have the Nr1 server on gametracker for sure, but it seems you cant see the real problems NS2 has.
The better players play on lower slots, so the rookies or bad players end on your server.
But if the rookies or bad players had there own lower slot servers they can learn and play in an environment like the better ones.
THATS one part why CS:go is succesfull, people play the same game like the pros.
In NS2 the bad players play there own game with own rules so they never get better.
I know you cant understand this, but its the sad truth.
Your server is helping to kill NS2.
Most people play some rounds there and never get in touch with the deeper strategic part of NS2.
Its basicly more like TDM.
Combat is a much better choice here.
Playing NS2 with players who fully understanded the game, each using mic and coordinate themself is one of the best gameexperiences i ever had.
Its just sad that so many players never reach this level cause there trapped @ clusterfuck.
1. combat mod will never come back, no matter how much you think its a good idea etc, its an independent project being headed by a different company with permission from UWE... its not going to happen... there is (as I stated on your thread I believe) a mod called "Assault" that aims to provide a similar feeling and "pick up and play" style of gameplay... its enjoyable and well worth a try.
2. I never said I disagree with you on the server topic, I was stating that I prefer to play on 12 - 16 player servers... My main point was that with wooza servers there is little to no wait time to play... now you can argue "forcing similarly skilled players" as much as you like... you are NOT guaranteed to get anyone that WANTS to command... in fact, you will regularly NOT get a single commander... thus the waiting game begins... and that cannot be fixed with any of your arguments on any of your threads... some people just don't want to command... at all... its that simple.
3. the fact of the matter is that wooza HAS helped keep NS2 going... it may not be a playstyle you like, it may not be a server population you like... but it has kept people playing... I've seen 3 wooza servers filled at the same time with plenty of other servers seeding at 10+ people with caps of 20+ slots.... that literally meant at that time 126 people were playing NS2 because of wooza even though they had other options... only 6 of those were commanding... I've seen prem div players play on wooza, i've seen complete rookies play on wooza... but your insistence that wooza is "bad" is just plain wrong... just because YOU don't like it, that doesn't mean its not a good thing... As I've said, I personally don't enjoy those servers, but the fact is, people come and play on those servers daily... they have a community... wooza has started doing servers on NS2: Combat and Ark ffs... its not just an attraction for people that don't know the game... People enjoy it for what it is... that doesn't mean YOU have to play like they do, but you damn sure don't have the right to tell them they CAN'T enjoy the game that way.
I agree with some of your ideas, I think some of it will help... but your desire to stop Wooza is ridiculous... if you don't like it, don't play on it... but don't tell others they aren't allowed to play on it.
The yoyo was originally a weapon, now its a toy people do tricks with... the skateboard and rollerblades/rollerboots were modes of transport, and now they are extreme sports... just because wooza isn't utilizing NS2 in the way it was originally intended, that doesn't make it wrong or bad... just different, and if people enjoy it... let them.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I recently remembered an issue I had when I first started playing a looong time ago. As an alien, it is really hard to tell when you are in range to land a bite or a swipe. Highlighting the marine in red if your bite/swipe will connect would really help new players engage I think.
People are impatient, they don't want to wait, so while I don't personally play on the high pop servers, I respect the fact that they do bring something to NS2... the "instant play" style of game that a lot of people want.
And this is what it boils down to.
Depara thinks that more servers with fewer slots and longer start times > few, big servers, short start times.
There is not going to be a universal agreement on this ever.
I agree with depara. I think Wooza like servers massively screw up distribution of players in the community and slow down player progression to be better. I think if we had more servers with fewer people on, we could more easily distribute skill into high skilled, med skilled, low skilled servers. The admins would have to work together tirelessly to enforce skill kicks, but I think @SantaClaws has correctly identified (and repeated) that the biggest problem in ns2 is the skill disparities between players in servers.
I totally agree, I would love to see shit-tons of low pop servers... but I don't agree with taking away a niche community to try to force smaller population servers... you can implement more low pop servers and encourage people to join them... but if they prefer the option of going to huge population servers, then let them... not everyone has to enjoy the game in the same way. we're all different and thats a good thing.
I just don't understand how anyone can justify the thought pattern of "YOU'RE NOT HAVING FUN THE RIGHT WAY DAMNIT!"... if they enjoy playing NS2 on 36+ pop servers, so be it.
Also he said it. It replaces the Combat mod.
It's not true it teaches nothing. It can teach the basic/immediate problems rookies have (some people do not learn anywhere, but Combat and Wooza's servers DID helped ME learn). The point is the engagements are frequent and you can move with other player and copy what they are doing (in relative safety). You learn basic aim (and finishing opponent). You learn avoiding death as long as you can. You learn not to fly in a wall of marines. You mostly always have help, so you learn dealing with lerk/fade/onos under fair circumstances. Yes you also do learn bad habits you need to unlearn later. Besides there are those warning on these servers, that it is not the vanilla game on joining, so nobody should mistake it for it.
In 6 vs 6, rookie wil get humiliated in 1 vs 1 engagements by even slightly more skilled player over and over learning nothing at all. Frequency of engagements is low, so he won't learn the absolute basics fast enough and be demoralized, that he just runs somewhere for several minutes just to die. They will also learn to handle advanced liveforms and weapons (which are not equal replacement for the basic equipment) equally slowly and to counter/kill them even slowlier. So only solution is to segragate differently skilled on another server. That IMHO puts larger strain on player-base than Wooza server. Wooza's is magical that way, that it allows mixed population to a degree.
BTW, I think nobody likes to read manuals. If I relied on manuals, I would be unable to operate my cellphone to this day. Also complex manuals/tutorials can be at risk of becoming obsolete every update.
Something as simple as making rookie follow another player, which knows it's a rookie and thus do not expect too much, could just work. They could perhaps have different uniform (so even if you have two rookies, you know it's a poor choice to engage a fade intentionally).
Also simple training sessions could be more productive (aim training at running skulk repeated over and over or "do as much damage in hive before you die" and similar scenarios).
EDIT: (Yeah, do bring Combat back though. Don't care what you do. Buy them or use old version or put horse heads in their beds. Whatever. Just do it! Seems like both games would benefit.)
Since the tutorials WILL NOT include the faults of the game relating to ping differences and players taking advantage of this. No amount of other useful information will prepare a player for the events they will face...
A player doesn't call cheats because he sucks at the game and this type of perception being thrown back at the nubs really shows the disconnect in reality.
I've been playing pub and called a nub for the longest for my style of play...Yet my wins are still over my loses. I do not stack. I play as a team. I often have a "neg" score but the most assist by a large number. The pros hate my style of play, but pros complain about their pub nubs and lose... then whine about their score... OH THE STUPID.
No you cannot expect players to go pro from the start. THATS NOT FUN, it's slow thinking. It's lack of multiplayer emersion. It lacks the soul that will bind them to this game. What do I know? I know how to play on the losing team and win. Or the very least hold my tongue.
Rarely have I blown up. Never have I blamed the unknowing for ruining my game.
If you don't want nubs in your game. PAY FOR A SERVER...and do what is needed and be an admin for that server.
Low skill/low pop = alien win
high skill/high pop = marine win
Wooza finds a balance with high pop but low skill, like gathers are balanced with high skilled games. And if you just want to play on wooza what's the problem ? 1k hours on it ? fine, you played the game the way you wanted, like in csgo where some people never play ranked . HBZ server was a 18 slots server with very high skilled players and it resulted in 3/4 marines win in the end, games were more insteresting (for competitive players) but it wasn't a better balance (and no way near this 52.1/47.9)
Matchmaking should be the priority, before trying to limit these servers. Or both at the same times : high skill 12slots, med skill 20 and low skill >24.
Since the tutorials WILL NOT include the faults of the game relating to ping differences and players taking advantage of this. No amount of other useful information will prepare a player for the events they will face...
What?
No offense, but I don't think you understand how lag compensation works. It's advantageous towards the attacker, but punishing against the retreating.
Latency or ping is not a new concept to 95% of PC gamers
Even if it that wasn't the case, it's hardly an important thing to teach a rookie given all that there is to teach in NS2.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
Asking for balance in an asymetrical multiplayer has always brought a grin to my face. "Momentum" always switches between the marines and aliens throughout every game, timed by different lifeform/techs, and unaligned by the players, which to me is the interessting part of the bigger picture. Some playstyles are rewarded more than others, and that is how it should be. In the end, it is up to the developers to determine what should be rewarding, and what should not.
I think that this discussion at times could need to look towards correcting the cause, rather than the effect. The lack of commanders f.ex. is not solved by making 42 servers - it diminishes the problem in a wierd player to commander ratio logic. Many players are prone to this phenomenon, as it also is the cause of cheesy mid game tunnel rushes. It doesn't teach people how to play or give them reason to look for their mistakes, but it does give a sensation of succes - one that often is mistaken for skill or gain.
On that note, introducing some kind of long term succes feeling might be very rewarding for the game. In LoL you unlock champions and customisation., in CSGI you gain ranks, levels and you are commended by fellow players if rare cases, in SC2 you gain new portraits, ns2 has a little tiny winy level below your name in the menu, that only you can see (which is based on your total score in some way i hear). The competitive scene has the Hall of Fame. What does the public scene need?
I encourage the developers to try and resolve many of the strains and tears NS2 is suffering from. And I applaud the recent Hit-reg patch as a furfilled attempt to do so! And I hope that the coming changes to gameplay are met with a mind for the intuitive, but also a mind for the competitive community. My dearest hope is that any Comp. mod will be useless one day, as the vanilla game will have made it an unneeded relic.
I totally agree, I would love to see shit-tons of low pop servers... but I don't agree with taking away a niche community to try to force smaller population servers... you can implement more low pop servers and encourage people to join them... but if they prefer the option of going to huge population servers, then let them... not everyone has to enjoy the game in the same way. we're all different and thats a good thing.
I just don't understand how anyone can justify the thought pattern of "YOU'RE NOT HAVING FUN THE RIGHT WAY DAMNIT!"... if they enjoy playing NS2 on 36+ pop servers, so be it.
The issue there is as mentioned before; the balance isn't dynamically adjusted. A harvester has the same amount of life points, the respawn time isn't changed, the map will not extend magically, etc.
Some parameters can be adjusted some other can't. So far no mod is doing it on the entire set of parameter. Usually marines tends to win as the player number go up. Of course if they can aim.
The high slot number servers tend to give a non accurate image of NS.
1 - You get in more fights. Most of the time it's more bloodshed than properly planned attacks.
2 - The necessary modifications on this kind of server concerning respawn and other things are not to be mistaken with vanilla.
It's goes towards a FPS instead of all the depth a FPS/RTS can offer.
Also he said it. It replaces the Combat mod.
It's not true it teaches nothing. It can teach the basic/immediate problems rookies have (some people do not learn anywhere, but Combat and Wooza's servers DID helped ME learn). The point is the engagements are frequent and you can move with other player and copy what they are doing (in relative safety). You learn basic aim (and finishing opponent). You learn avoiding death as long as you can. You learn not to fly in a wall of marines. You mostly always have help, so you learn dealing with lerk/fade/onos under fair circumstances. Yes you also do learn bad habits you need to unlearn later. Besides there are those warning on these servers, that it is not the vanilla game on joining, so nobody should mistake it for it.
In 6 vs 6, rookie wil get humiliated in 1 vs 1 engagements by even slightly more skilled player over and over learning nothing at all. Frequency of engagements is low, so he won't learn the absolute basics fast enough and be demoralized, that he just runs somewhere for several minutes just to die. They will also learn to handle advanced liveforms and weapons (which are not equal replacement for the basic equipment) equally slowly and to counter/kill them even slowlier. So only solution is to segragate differently skilled on another server. That IMHO puts larger strain on player-base than Wooza server. Wooza's is magical that way, that it allows mixed population to a degree.
BTW, I think nobody likes to read manuals. If I relied on manuals, I would be unable to operate my cellphone to this day. Also complex manuals/tutorials can be at risk of becoming obsolete every update.
Something as simple as making rookie follow another player, which knows it's a rookie and thus do not expect too much, could just work. They could perhaps have different uniform (so even if you have two rookies, you know it's a poor choice to engage a fade intentionally).
Also simple training sessions could be more productive (aim training at running skulk repeated over and over or "do as much damage in hive before you die" and similar scenarios).
EDIT: (Yeah, do bring Combat back though. Don't care what you do. Buy them or use old version or put horse heads in their beds. Whatever. Just do it! Seems like both games would benefit.)
2 hours with a Mentor (or interactive tutorial) could save you days on this kind of server. The manual as written document isn't a obligation. The NS2 tutorial is already interactive. There are many ways to teach and learn. So far manuals can provide information that would require days or months to gather for someone playing on a server and just 'fighting'. The opportunity of something happening in a specific context is the same. Better use a source of information than waiting for this to pop up. The combat training is only ONE facet of the game.
Nothing prevent to get a tutorial with fighting sequences that will train the new players in doing it the right way. IMO 1 hours is enough to get there with a training map. You only need roBOTs to do so. Even the ones we already have can help target practice and setup keyboard for rookies.
Frankly i don't really care if the new comers are good fighters. As long as they bring their teeth on that Obs instead of using parasite on the CC... I'm afraid to say it's not the first thing you learn on this kind of servers.
Since the tutorials WILL NOT include the faults of the game relating to ping differences and players taking advantage of this. No amount of other useful information will prepare a player for the events they will face...
A player doesn't call cheats because he sucks at the game and this type of perception being thrown back at the nubs really shows the disconnect in reality.
I've been playing pub and called a nub for the longest for my style of play...Yet my wins are still over my loses. I do not stack. I play as a team. I often have a "neg" score but the most assist by a large number. The pros hate my style of play, but pros complain about their pub nubs and lose... then whine about their score... OH THE STUPID.
No you cannot expect players to go pro from the start. THATS NOT FUN, it's slow thinking. It's lack of multiplayer emersion. It lacks the soul that will bind them to this game. What do I know? I know how to play on the losing team and win. Or the very least hold my tongue.
Rarely have I blown up. Never have I blamed the unknowing for ruining my game.
If you don't want nubs in your game. PAY FOR A SERVER...and do what is needed and be an admin for that server.
As said every game has latency issues. If this players have another online game, they know.
You do not stack? Bu||sh... Everybody does; period. They don't act like this because the new comers are new.
they do it because at least someone with a little experience :
-will provide teamwork. Any game even with rookies is by far different when cooperative actions happens.
-understands the game. you don't have to explain ten times the same things to people who don't listen.
-will no contradict the ones that are providing good advice. Like "no we shouldn't kill the obs, let's parasite the CC". Which is the worst as other rookies will doubt.
-Aren't full of themselves. When you ask (after a good Marine meal) if anyone needs a practice session or help. Nobody answer. Let's go for another bloodshed. asking again... no one answer... bloodshed... asking...
You probably have realized that every servers is owned by the community right now, no ? Admins are needed but how can we trust people with 0 microphone and 0 experience in that matter ? Having a server and admin will not solve the problem. They are not suddenly bound to provide teachings with a glowing aura above their head.
We do not expect them to go pro, just to realize that killing the opponent isn't relevant most of the time. In fact sometimes it's better to let the opponent where they are while killing a base... Understand that RTs are important to kill is not a pro thing. But teaching them surely IS considering the water that flows between the ears of some "wanabees".
When Somebody says "OBS first", this somebody expect a minimal response in the form of 4 skulks grinding that obs. Where is it pro ? It's just target selection.
The issue there is as mentioned before; the balance isn't dynamically adjusted. A harvester has the same amount of life points, the respawn time isn't changed, the map will not extend magically, etc.
Some parameters can be adjusted some other can't. So far no mod is doing it on the entire set of parameter. Usually marines tends to win as the player number go up. Of course if they can aim.
The high slot number servers tend to give a non accurate image of NS.
1 - You get in more fights. Most of the time it's more bloodshed than properly planned attacks.
2 - The necessary modifications on this kind of server concerning respawn and other things are not to be mistaken with vanilla.
It's goes towards a FPS instead of all the depth a FPS/RTS can offer.
okay... it seems people aren't understanding my standpoint on this so i'll try again...
I don't like large servers, I understand why people don't want to play on them... I see the same issues as other people with the high population servers.
My point is, the issues you present are issues only for those people that don't want that style of gameplay... the same for Seige mod or Combat (when it was a mod) etc... people complained about it not feeling "right" and not staying true enough to the vanilla style of gameplay or not having enough of the RTS elements to be justifiable... if YOU don't like it, don't play it... but don't say other people shouldn't.
So, what about the people that don't WANT the style of play that we do? should they be ejected from the community en masse? NO!... they are providing themselves with servers to play on, they are developing their own community etc... its not draining resources, its not an issue... THEY WANT to play that way... the issues we see are NOT issues for those players... why do YOU (Read: everyone) assume that NS2 cannot support both communities?
"but its teaching bad habits" - cry more... its only a bad habit for YOUR style of gameplay.
"but its not how the game was intended" cry more... who cares? if they enjoy that style who are you to say they can't?
"its taking away the RTS elements and making it more about just FPS" cry more... SO WHAT!... if you don't like it, don't play on it.
"more bloodshed than planned attacks" cry more... again, this falls into what YOU want and what THEY want... some people like all out bloodshed.
The yoyo was originally a weapon, now its a toy people do tricks with... the skateboard and rollerblades/rollerboots were modes of transport, and now they are extreme sports... just because wooza isn't utilizing NS2 in the way it was originally intended, that doesn't make it wrong or bad... just different, and if people enjoy it... let them.
Seriously, how are people not understanding this? NS2 could be so much more if people stopped worrying about what servers/mods other people played and focussed more on providing ideas to expand on what we already have.
Don't like wooza?... don't play on wooza.
Don't like combat?... don't play combat.
Don't like seige?... don't play seige.
Don't like marine vs marine/SwS/Assault/Overhaul?... don't play them.
But don't say that other people shouldn't be allowed to play them.
We're already a niche community playing a small game... why try thinning the herd even more?... why do you insist on constantly arguing with each other about "how to play"... just accept that people want different things from this game and have fun with it... thats what a GAME is intended for... FUN... if they are having fun, leave them the F alone!
Came to suggest macros for comunication for stuff like how to concede, use map, that aliens don't have minimap and such for players to use to tell other players how to play when they ask and the game is live. (I do understand I can make them for myself)
About the lag compensation... A marine can begin shooting and have a great opportunity to kill the alien before it can move out of the way or even get jiggy with it. The reaction time given to respond or to even add flair to movement is reduced for the alien with reasonable local ping verses that marine with a cross the globe ping.
Now, maybe games like CS has gotten just as shoty, but I thought UWE was doing this intentionally to allow play across the globe.
A marine that knows what is up can hug the walls and do very well. While I agree a player may be skilled in their tatics...It's the ping of 200 that's fending off all agression into a room with just a riffle....I don't care to detail it any further. You either know what I mean or you don't.
You can even take it the otherway and rush in as an alien with a high ping and the marine will have a reduce time to react before the server declares him to be dead.
Just change your tatics to fit your ping... It's much harder to change your tatics to fit their ping. However, understanding it will allow a player to rage less.,,, or more /shrug
Edit: maybe lots have changed since update? and med packing aiming is/were effects of cross ocean communication.
We're already a niche community playing a small game... why try thinning the herd even more?... why do you insist on constantly arguing with each other about "how to play"... just accept that people want different things from this game and have fun with it... thats what a GAME is intended for... FUN... if they are having fun, leave them the F alone!
"What about high player counts makes that more fun, though? I honestly want to know, because this kind of stuff is super important and we obsess over it every day," McCoy said in response. "None of us are deluded enough to think we're making a game that fits every gamer. We're making a game we think is badass, and hope other people do it.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
edited December 2015
I can't see if people came to a conclusion but the mention of powernodes made me think. I dont dislike the idea of removing powernodes at all. It would remove a feature, simplifying gameplay, no more annoying rookies who finishes the power, only for the marines to lose the engagement, the power, and a heck of alot of time.
Balancing wise, marine RT building times would need to be revisited. Maybe the first RT on a spot requires additional time to build, but this is a poor solution, as it complicates for no reason. A pre-mold for the RT that the marine can construct without the need for the commander might be a solution, but I am not convinced either. Turning the build time up over all would make resbiting alot more efficient, which only would be a heavy nerd to the 'Rine res flow. This is where i see the biggest problem, and an elegant solution would be needed.
Cyst in a room would determine if it is powered or not. An animation like the hive ripping up the floor, would make it cool to see the alien creep tear up a powernode, one tentacle getting fried, while the others keep tearing it, sparks flying everywhere. Marines would then see the immidiate danger of creep, and it would become an obvious thing to react to. The power would "repair" itself, and constantly try to fix the damages it has recieved. Small animations of the tentacles giving the powernode a hit at times could make a room come alive - and give additional cover for the aliens. >:D There would be no need to revisit contamination - simply make it too short to have enough time to rip up a powernode, or simply make it unable to do so. I hope there will be no major changes to cysts, which would mean a complete rework of alien economy, and remove even more for the alien commander to do - which for many people is already too little.
Removing powernodes would also mean one additional things Robotics factorys power surge would suddenly become a very prominent feature when it comes to cheesy PGs, and can be scouted, just like open tunnels in the alien base. A robotics in the marine base would be a tell tale sign of imminent PG shenanigans.
EDIT: Thanks to Frozen for pointing out incorrect assumptions.
IxianDenmarkJoin Date: 2014-03-16Member: 194783Members, Squad Five Blue
Hmm... you appear to be right - Always thought for some reason welders build faster, but apparently they dont. The percentage counter isn't as smooth as the e welder so i guess that is what lead to the confusion. Thank you
We're already a niche community playing a small game... why try thinning the herd even more?... why do you insist on constantly arguing with each other about "how to play"... just accept that people want different things from this game and have fun with it... thats what a GAME is intended for... FUN... if they are having fun, leave them the F alone!
"What about high player counts makes that more fun, though? I honestly want to know, because this kind of stuff is super important and we obsess over it every day," McCoy said in response. "None of us are deluded enough to think we're making a game that fits every gamer. We're making a game we think is badass, and hope other people do it.
When Titanfall has community ran servers, spanning 12 - 42 slots... then you can use a quote from them... until then, its irrelevant what they say.
Everyone knows that the reason we love NS2 so much is because there is no game like it... there is no human vs alien RTS/FPS hybrid other than NS2... the closest is the alien vs predator games... and since the release of AvP2 back in 2001 there hasn't been a good avp game.
So people that enjoy the human vs alien style of game come here... and we should welcome everyone... if they want to play strictly 6 vs 6, 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12, great, if they want to play 21 vs 21 thats fine too. there is plenty of room for everyone.
The simple fact is, everyone has spent their money on a game they want to play, and you do not have the right to tell them they can't play the way they enjoy... to think otherwise is ridiculous.
Feel free to dislike high pop servers, feel free to state that you don't like them... but don't tell other people they can't like them.
Comments
Never said it was a complete idea, just a way to slow the snowball effect!
Nubs would benefit the most, imo. If they can land just 1 bullet/bite/heal when that player dies, they'd get a part of that bonus.
And as far as suidicing...well thats been used as a reason not to do a whole lot of things, like granting 1 free hand grenade on spawn. I still believe that players will not willingly spend time in a respawn queue and lose their lifeform/equipment just to abuse a mechanic....and its a simple thing to determine when someone died from a player or from a console command.
The #1 source of frustration that leads to not playing again based on all the feedback from forums and steam etc is the steep learning curve (with no access to learning) and being stomped.
This elegant solution of gating rookies into a training environment until they are comfortable solves both of those. They are two quick and very easy tutorials that walk the player through the very basics. If they can't be bothered to go through the bare minimum then they can enjoy training in Rookie Only servers against bots. (that resolves your concern over player numbers to fill servers for Rookies)
So if someone wants to learn the game "hot" then they still can.. but they will be relegated to playing with other Rookies and bots.
Everyone has helped Rookies in servers for years now, but getting asked the most simple/basic stuff over and over again that can be otherwise more effectively taught through a tutorial is just unnecessary.
So yeah, I always start with the "trial by fire" approach, and if its too much, I do research and practise vs bots.
If NS2 had this, I feel it would go a LONG way to player retention.
Lets say there 15 servers populated primetime.
Im sure you have rookies, average and vets on EVERY of these 15. White or green server doesnt matter.
So what would be the problem if each of these 3 skill levels had to play on there servers?
Everyone would have much more fun and less complain.
Sorry, but i will never stop with my mantra:
Get rid of these >24 clusterfuck finally.
They are not saving NS2, they are part of the problem that the game is losing players, plus people learn nothing on them.
Im sure over 80% of the games there are Marine wins and the only way to win as alien a sneaky tunnel to base.
Every round.
There 4 servers right now over 24 in the EU.
2*42 and 2*36
These 4 server would be 12 18 slot, wich is an perfect slotammount for pub in my opinion.
So, more filled servers=more room to split players by skill.
Plus the serverbrowser would not look so empty=the game looks more alive.
Im sure many starting the game, see 7 filled servers, joining one of the clusterfucks, didnt enjoy it and thats it.
"game is dead anyway"-deinstall.
Maybe you can bring these servers back when you reached your goal, wich is: more players.
Meanwhile people can make special maps for these large server, so you dont have to play on Tram for example (wich is a joke with this playerammount)
e.g., Marine Start - Marine commander drops a extractor.
The new player gets a bubble in the HUD: "New resource extractor (RT) dropped in Logistics" Maybe in a window, with a scroll bar to give more information: "Press Map Button to see location. It will appear as a blue print until you start to build it with Build Button. Once built it will give you 1 resource per minute and your team 10 resources per minute. Protect it!"
Marine commander drops Arms lab. "Arms lab dropped in Shipping" - "Build the Arms lab fast! So you can get automatic upgrades to your weapons and armor!" - "Weapon 1 (with icon) started! In 80 seconds your Assault Rifle will do 10% more damage!"
You spawn as a Skulk - "Parasite to mark marines for your team, push key 1" "Alien commander has seeded a Spur. In less than two minutes you can choose Celerity (speed) or Adrenaline (energy) bonus by evolving the trait by pushing X."
etc.
You get the idea.
Find a way to simplify shuffle modes or force it.
Example why:
People joining teams wich end 2300 skill marines and 900 aliens with 4 rookies.
"Shuffle please"
5 voting for it, vote end
"Hit M->shuffle"
7 voting for it, vote end
1st people start to leave the server
Someone start a ingamevote
9/10 hitting f1
Another 2 leaving the server
"Press M-> shuffle. Look at the skill difference"
Finally it works.
People pressing f4 cause they dont want to play the side there put in
From here you can repeat the above multiple times someteimes.
After all this waste of time.
The great waiting for the com start.
Nooone wants and a green jumps in.
"Eject"
Done
Waiting
After 10 min the one with the highest skill points jumps in only to start the game.
"Hurray"
Problem is, the skill is balanced around him and now he is missing on the field.
Especial on alienside this is a huge problem.
Result, game is over after 5 min.
So after the annoying and boring waiting for the roundstart you have nonstop one sided boring rounds.
-deinstall
This would be also solved with my idea from my last post.
- "Rookie only servers" dont need shuffle, people can play whatever they want.
- "Normal pub server" have forced shuffle with an algorithmus like in Evolve, where you can choose your favorite side and server trys to put you on that as often as possible.
- "Vet servers" can shuffle by themself
While I personally don't like the playstyle of the high numbers servers (I refuse to play on servers with more than 20 slots) the one thing I will point out is this.
They get games started... the reason people play on those servers is because they are guaranteed to jump in and just play, no delays... no waiting for a comm for 20 minutes... with 42 people on the server finding 2 people to command is a pretty easy task.
Yes that is a 21 vs 21 player server which doesn't fall into my enjoyment zone, my personal enjoyment is 6 vs 6 ideally... but to get all 42 people split up into servers of 12 you would need 7 of those people to command, instead of 2.
Thats 3 + 1/2 games worth of people... so lets just say they populate 7 vs 7 servers instead... making it an even 3 servers, meaning 6 commanders... the delay between games is instantly increased due to more people having to command.
People are impatient, they don't want to wait, so while I don't personally play on the high pop servers, I respect the fact that they do bring something to NS2... the "instant play" style of game that a lot of people want.
No.
18 slots with 2 spec slots by default (i like this feature btw. Ppl can watch a game and learn something)
This plus forced teams like i mentioned above and noone has to wait.
The Gplay server (i was playing on it a few rounds before the admin increased the slot ammount) is forcing teams.
I heard no complains and games start very quickly compare to the "pls, vote shufffle" circle.
And people dont like to command cause these reasons:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2263118/#Comment_2263118
On a rookie only server noone would complain about missing meds nonstop, on a vet server you wont have the "com, we need exos" after 4 min.
So in the end it would be more enjoyable for people to com again.
If the global goal is:
How can we make the game more attractive for players, you have to rethink about the current status.
And the current status is: These clusterfuck servers didnt save NS2 from losing players.
And if we lose lets say 40 players, cause they dont want to play on smaller servers but we can gather and hold 200 new players with an more rookie friendly environment where they can learn things and have an good transition to higher skill play, we have reached the goal cause these people telling there friends about how awesome NS2 is.
In the moment i see many people (like me) coming back to NS2.
Dont know why
But what i also see are old problems and i realize again why i stopped playing it.
Most rounds are not fun and frustrating most of the time cause the HUGE skill difference on each server. This plus the current serversituation drives me away again.
Losing 14 games in a row cause the whole alienteam has no clue about it (yes, higher skills also. I call this wooza effect) is not funny.
"the reason people play on those servers is because they are guaranteed to jump in and just play, no delays"
No, most play on them cause there always up, cause they reached the critical point later where the server dies.
And if people like the more TDM style, well, include combat again into NS2 like i mentioned in another thread.
Voila.
And btw:
Many, many many people want a matchmaking system.
This can only work with a skill-split and this can only work with more smaller instead a few large servers.
Other players want a gather system included into the game. Its the same, doesnt work with clusterfuck.
And this is what it boils down to.
Depara thinks that more servers with fewer slots and longer start times > few, big servers, short start times.
There is not going to be a universal agreement on this ever.
I agree with depara. I think Wooza like servers massively screw up distribution of players in the community and slow down player progression to be better. I think if we had more servers with fewer people on, we could more easily distribute skill into high skilled, med skilled, low skilled servers. The admins would have to work together tirelessly to enforce skill kicks, but I think @SantaClaws has correctly identified (and repeated) that the biggest problem in ns2 is the skill disparities between players in servers.
http://apheriox.com/wonitor/
The issue that is most concerning and has always been outside of the bad netcode was and still is the basic movement. If you are looking to get the biggest bang for your buck you need to address the movement and physics aspect of movement in NS2. I brought this up during beta and it was ignored on behalf of people who were obsessed with exploits from NS1 (bunnyhopping).
The movement in this game needs to be intuitive and not have hidden mechanics, this in of it self is a fallacy in NS2 design philosophy.
Making one key stroke mistake in this game or poor map design that causes clipping can almost guarantee death as an alien. Also redesigning the base movement/physics code could help a lot with prediction on both code side and player perception of real time events.
For skulks, bouncing off certain surfaces at the right time really shouldn't be a benefit and makes balancing for the average player a nightmare and NS2 has demonstrated this perfectly. They have a superior movement ability it is called leap. So pretty much eliminate the hidden speed boost mechanics that can be effected by a lot of non player control aspects of the game (map/player clipping, server hicup...).
This goes for all life forms as well as the marines. This will go along way for new and veteran players it helps eliminate a lot of the games mechanics/flaws that cause frustration.
I'm sure there is a lot of other tweaks that could happen but they would require a lot of balancing and only improve the game in one aspect.
A game to refer to that has been trying to tackle movement issues is Warframe. They have revamped a system and made it far more intuitive then it use to be.
As I said before this has multiple avenues of improving NS2 for more then just one side.
Im sure that most of the Alienwins are the result of an sneaky tunnel. I played a few rounds there, i know what im talking about. Sad that this part is missing in the stats.
With an half competenet marineteam its nearly impossible to lose on an 42 slot server.
Thats what i say, people learn nothing in that environment. And in the long run this is killing NS2.
Radimax ist the best example btw.
2600 skill points? Hmm, no.
I know its great to have the Nr1 server on gametracker for sure, but it seems you cant see the real problems NS2 has.
The better players play on lower slots, so the rookies or bad players end on your server.
But if the rookies or bad players had there own lower slot servers they can learn and play in an environment like the better ones.
THATS one part why CS:go is succesfull, people play the same game like the pros.
In NS2 the bad players play there own game with own rules so they never get better.
I know you cant understand this, but its the sad truth.
Your server is helping to kill NS2.
Most people play some rounds there and never get in touch with the deeper strategic part of NS2.
Its basicly more like TDM.
Combat is a much better choice here.
Playing NS2 with players who fully understanded the game, each using mic and coordinate themself is one of the best gameexperiences i ever had.
Its just sad that so many players never reach this level cause there trapped @ clusterfuck.
1. combat mod will never come back, no matter how much you think its a good idea etc, its an independent project being headed by a different company with permission from UWE... its not going to happen... there is (as I stated on your thread I believe) a mod called "Assault" that aims to provide a similar feeling and "pick up and play" style of gameplay... its enjoyable and well worth a try.
2. I never said I disagree with you on the server topic, I was stating that I prefer to play on 12 - 16 player servers... My main point was that with wooza servers there is little to no wait time to play... now you can argue "forcing similarly skilled players" as much as you like... you are NOT guaranteed to get anyone that WANTS to command... in fact, you will regularly NOT get a single commander... thus the waiting game begins... and that cannot be fixed with any of your arguments on any of your threads... some people just don't want to command... at all... its that simple.
3. the fact of the matter is that wooza HAS helped keep NS2 going... it may not be a playstyle you like, it may not be a server population you like... but it has kept people playing... I've seen 3 wooza servers filled at the same time with plenty of other servers seeding at 10+ people with caps of 20+ slots.... that literally meant at that time 126 people were playing NS2 because of wooza even though they had other options... only 6 of those were commanding... I've seen prem div players play on wooza, i've seen complete rookies play on wooza... but your insistence that wooza is "bad" is just plain wrong... just because YOU don't like it, that doesn't mean its not a good thing... As I've said, I personally don't enjoy those servers, but the fact is, people come and play on those servers daily... they have a community... wooza has started doing servers on NS2: Combat and Ark ffs... its not just an attraction for people that don't know the game... People enjoy it for what it is... that doesn't mean YOU have to play like they do, but you damn sure don't have the right to tell them they CAN'T enjoy the game that way.
I agree with some of your ideas, I think some of it will help... but your desire to stop Wooza is ridiculous... if you don't like it, don't play on it... but don't tell others they aren't allowed to play on it.
The yoyo was originally a weapon, now its a toy people do tricks with... the skateboard and rollerblades/rollerboots were modes of transport, and now they are extreme sports... just because wooza isn't utilizing NS2 in the way it was originally intended, that doesn't make it wrong or bad... just different, and if people enjoy it... let them.
I share only my opinions.
Like you said, if you dont like them feel free to ignore them.
I totally agree, I would love to see shit-tons of low pop servers... but I don't agree with taking away a niche community to try to force smaller population servers... you can implement more low pop servers and encourage people to join them... but if they prefer the option of going to huge population servers, then let them... not everyone has to enjoy the game in the same way. we're all different and thats a good thing.
I just don't understand how anyone can justify the thought pattern of "YOU'RE NOT HAVING FUN THE RIGHT WAY DAMNIT!"... if they enjoy playing NS2 on 36+ pop servers, so be it.
I wish I could see that for every server.
It's not true it teaches nothing. It can teach the basic/immediate problems rookies have (some people do not learn anywhere, but Combat and Wooza's servers DID helped ME learn). The point is the engagements are frequent and you can move with other player and copy what they are doing (in relative safety). You learn basic aim (and finishing opponent). You learn avoiding death as long as you can. You learn not to fly in a wall of marines. You mostly always have help, so you learn dealing with lerk/fade/onos under fair circumstances. Yes you also do learn bad habits you need to unlearn later. Besides there are those warning on these servers, that it is not the vanilla game on joining, so nobody should mistake it for it.
In 6 vs 6, rookie wil get humiliated in 1 vs 1 engagements by even slightly more skilled player over and over learning nothing at all. Frequency of engagements is low, so he won't learn the absolute basics fast enough and be demoralized, that he just runs somewhere for several minutes just to die. They will also learn to handle advanced liveforms and weapons (which are not equal replacement for the basic equipment) equally slowly and to counter/kill them even slowlier. So only solution is to segragate differently skilled on another server. That IMHO puts larger strain on player-base than Wooza server. Wooza's is magical that way, that it allows mixed population to a degree.
BTW, I think nobody likes to read manuals. If I relied on manuals, I would be unable to operate my cellphone to this day. Also complex manuals/tutorials can be at risk of becoming obsolete every update.
Something as simple as making rookie follow another player, which knows it's a rookie and thus do not expect too much, could just work. They could perhaps have different uniform (so even if you have two rookies, you know it's a poor choice to engage a fade intentionally).
Also simple training sessions could be more productive (aim training at running skulk repeated over and over or "do as much damage in hive before you die" and similar scenarios).
EDIT: (Yeah, do bring Combat back though. Don't care what you do. Buy them or use old version or put horse heads in their beds. Whatever. Just do it! Seems like both games would benefit.)
A player doesn't call cheats because he sucks at the game and this type of perception being thrown back at the nubs really shows the disconnect in reality.
I've been playing pub and called a nub for the longest for my style of play...Yet my wins are still over my loses. I do not stack. I play as a team. I often have a "neg" score but the most assist by a large number. The pros hate my style of play, but pros complain about their pub nubs and lose... then whine about their score... OH THE STUPID.
No you cannot expect players to go pro from the start. THATS NOT FUN, it's slow thinking. It's lack of multiplayer emersion. It lacks the soul that will bind them to this game. What do I know? I know how to play on the losing team and win. Or the very least hold my tongue.
Rarely have I blown up. Never have I blamed the unknowing for ruining my game.
If you don't want nubs in your game. PAY FOR A SERVER...and do what is needed and be an admin for that server.
high skill/high pop = marine win
Wooza finds a balance with high pop but low skill, like gathers are balanced with high skilled games. And if you just want to play on wooza what's the problem ? 1k hours on it ? fine, you played the game the way you wanted, like in csgo where some people never play ranked . HBZ server was a 18 slots server with very high skilled players and it resulted in 3/4 marines win in the end, games were more insteresting (for competitive players) but it wasn't a better balance (and no way near this 52.1/47.9)
Matchmaking should be the priority, before trying to limit these servers. Or both at the same times : high skill 12slots, med skill 20 and low skill >24.
I think that this discussion at times could need to look towards correcting the cause, rather than the effect. The lack of commanders f.ex. is not solved by making 42 servers - it diminishes the problem in a wierd player to commander ratio logic. Many players are prone to this phenomenon, as it also is the cause of cheesy mid game tunnel rushes. It doesn't teach people how to play or give them reason to look for their mistakes, but it does give a sensation of succes - one that often is mistaken for skill or gain.
On that note, introducing some kind of long term succes feeling might be very rewarding for the game. In LoL you unlock champions and customisation., in CSGI you gain ranks, levels and you are commended by fellow players if rare cases, in SC2 you gain new portraits, ns2 has a little tiny winy level below your name in the menu, that only you can see (which is based on your total score in some way i hear). The competitive scene has the Hall of Fame. What does the public scene need?
I encourage the developers to try and resolve many of the strains and tears NS2 is suffering from. And I applaud the recent Hit-reg patch as a furfilled attempt to do so! And I hope that the coming changes to gameplay are met with a mind for the intuitive, but also a mind for the competitive community. My dearest hope is that any Comp. mod will be useless one day, as the vanilla game will have made it an unneeded relic.
Some parameters can be adjusted some other can't. So far no mod is doing it on the entire set of parameter. Usually marines tends to win as the player number go up. Of course if they can aim.
The high slot number servers tend to give a non accurate image of NS.
1 - You get in more fights. Most of the time it's more bloodshed than properly planned attacks.
2 - The necessary modifications on this kind of server concerning respawn and other things are not to be mistaken with vanilla.
It's goes towards a FPS instead of all the depth a FPS/RTS can offer.
2 hours with a Mentor (or interactive tutorial) could save you days on this kind of server. The manual as written document isn't a obligation. The NS2 tutorial is already interactive. There are many ways to teach and learn. So far manuals can provide information that would require days or months to gather for someone playing on a server and just 'fighting'. The opportunity of something happening in a specific context is the same. Better use a source of information than waiting for this to pop up. The combat training is only ONE facet of the game.
Nothing prevent to get a tutorial with fighting sequences that will train the new players in doing it the right way. IMO 1 hours is enough to get there with a training map. You only need roBOTs to do so. Even the ones we already have can help target practice and setup keyboard for rookies.
Frankly i don't really care if the new comers are good fighters. As long as they bring their teeth on that Obs instead of using parasite on the CC... I'm afraid to say it's not the first thing you learn on this kind of servers.
As said every game has latency issues. If this players have another online game, they know.
You do not stack? Bu||sh... Everybody does; period. They don't act like this because the new comers are new.
they do it because at least someone with a little experience :
-will provide teamwork. Any game even with rookies is by far different when cooperative actions happens.
-understands the game. you don't have to explain ten times the same things to people who don't listen.
-will no contradict the ones that are providing good advice. Like "no we shouldn't kill the obs, let's parasite the CC". Which is the worst as other rookies will doubt.
-Aren't full of themselves. When you ask (after a good Marine meal) if anyone needs a practice session or help. Nobody answer. Let's go for another bloodshed. asking again... no one answer... bloodshed... asking...
You probably have realized that every servers is owned by the community right now, no ? Admins are needed but how can we trust people with 0 microphone and 0 experience in that matter ? Having a server and admin will not solve the problem. They are not suddenly bound to provide teachings with a glowing aura above their head.
We do not expect them to go pro, just to realize that killing the opponent isn't relevant most of the time. In fact sometimes it's better to let the opponent where they are while killing a base... Understand that RTs are important to kill is not a pro thing. But teaching them surely IS considering the water that flows between the ears of some "wanabees".
When Somebody says "OBS first", this somebody expect a minimal response in the form of 4 skulks grinding that obs. Where is it pro ? It's just target selection.
okay... it seems people aren't understanding my standpoint on this so i'll try again...
I don't like large servers, I understand why people don't want to play on them... I see the same issues as other people with the high population servers.
My point is, the issues you present are issues only for those people that don't want that style of gameplay... the same for Seige mod or Combat (when it was a mod) etc... people complained about it not feeling "right" and not staying true enough to the vanilla style of gameplay or not having enough of the RTS elements to be justifiable... if YOU don't like it, don't play it... but don't say other people shouldn't.
So, what about the people that don't WANT the style of play that we do? should they be ejected from the community en masse? NO!... they are providing themselves with servers to play on, they are developing their own community etc... its not draining resources, its not an issue... THEY WANT to play that way... the issues we see are NOT issues for those players... why do YOU (Read: everyone) assume that NS2 cannot support both communities?
"but its teaching bad habits" - cry more... its only a bad habit for YOUR style of gameplay.
"but its not how the game was intended" cry more... who cares? if they enjoy that style who are you to say they can't?
"its taking away the RTS elements and making it more about just FPS" cry more... SO WHAT!... if you don't like it, don't play on it.
"more bloodshed than planned attacks" cry more... again, this falls into what YOU want and what THEY want... some people like all out bloodshed.
Seriously, how are people not understanding this? NS2 could be so much more if people stopped worrying about what servers/mods other people played and focussed more on providing ideas to expand on what we already have.
Don't like wooza?... don't play on wooza.
Don't like combat?... don't play combat.
Don't like seige?... don't play seige.
Don't like marine vs marine/SwS/Assault/Overhaul?... don't play them.
But don't say that other people shouldn't be allowed to play them.
We're already a niche community playing a small game... why try thinning the herd even more?... why do you insist on constantly arguing with each other about "how to play"... just accept that people want different things from this game and have fun with it... thats what a GAME is intended for... FUN... if they are having fun, leave them the F alone!
About the lag compensation... A marine can begin shooting and have a great opportunity to kill the alien before it can move out of the way or even get jiggy with it. The reaction time given to respond or to even add flair to movement is reduced for the alien with reasonable local ping verses that marine with a cross the globe ping.
Now, maybe games like CS has gotten just as shoty, but I thought UWE was doing this intentionally to allow play across the globe.
A marine that knows what is up can hug the walls and do very well. While I agree a player may be skilled in their tatics...It's the ping of 200 that's fending off all agression into a room with just a riffle....I don't care to detail it any further. You either know what I mean or you don't.
You can even take it the otherway and rush in as an alien with a high ping and the marine will have a reduce time to react before the server declares him to be dead.
Just change your tatics to fit your ping... It's much harder to change your tatics to fit their ping. However, understanding it will allow a player to rage less.,,, or more /shrug
Edit: maybe lots have changed since update? and med packing aiming is/were effects of cross ocean communication.
No comment, only this:
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/titanfall-dev-responds-to-criticism-about-6v6-player-limit/1100-6417107/
"What about high player counts makes that more fun, though? I honestly want to know, because this kind of stuff is super important and we obsess over it every day," McCoy said in response. "None of us are deluded enough to think we're making a game that fits every gamer. We're making a game we think is badass, and hope other people do it.
Balancing wise, marine RT building times would need to be revisited. Maybe the first RT on a spot requires additional time to build, but this is a poor solution, as it complicates for no reason. A pre-mold for the RT that the marine can construct without the need for the commander might be a solution, but I am not convinced either. Turning the build time up over all would make resbiting alot more efficient, which only would be a heavy nerd to the 'Rine res flow. This is where i see the biggest problem, and an elegant solution would be needed.
Cyst in a room would determine if it is powered or not. An animation like the hive ripping up the floor, would make it cool to see the alien creep tear up a powernode, one tentacle getting fried, while the others keep tearing it, sparks flying everywhere. Marines would then see the immidiate danger of creep, and it would become an obvious thing to react to. The power would "repair" itself, and constantly try to fix the damages it has recieved. Small animations of the tentacles giving the powernode a hit at times could make a room come alive - and give additional cover for the aliens. >:D There would be no need to revisit contamination - simply make it too short to have enough time to rip up a powernode, or simply make it unable to do so. I hope there will be no major changes to cysts, which would mean a complete rework of alien economy, and remove even more for the alien commander to do - which for many people is already too little.
Removing powernodes would also mean one additional things Robotics factorys power surge would suddenly become a very prominent feature when it comes to cheesy PGs, and can be scouted, just like open tunnels in the alien base. A robotics in the marine base would be a tell tale sign of imminent PG shenanigans.
EDIT: Thanks to Frozen for pointing out incorrect assumptions.
When Titanfall has community ran servers, spanning 12 - 42 slots... then you can use a quote from them... until then, its irrelevant what they say.
Everyone knows that the reason we love NS2 so much is because there is no game like it... there is no human vs alien RTS/FPS hybrid other than NS2... the closest is the alien vs predator games... and since the release of AvP2 back in 2001 there hasn't been a good avp game.
So people that enjoy the human vs alien style of game come here... and we should welcome everyone... if they want to play strictly 6 vs 6, 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12, great, if they want to play 21 vs 21 thats fine too. there is plenty of room for everyone.
The simple fact is, everyone has spent their money on a game they want to play, and you do not have the right to tell them they can't play the way they enjoy... to think otherwise is ridiculous.
Feel free to dislike high pop servers, feel free to state that you don't like them... but don't tell other people they can't like them.