Well, the main reason why it is hard to win as marines now is that we have scenarios where a marine in light armor with no jet pack or Heavy armor and maybe just a lvl1 upgrade in armor and weapons must face a Fade that has defense and movement lvl3.
Why?
Because the aliens can build a 2nd hive with sufficient defenses in a significantly shorter time frame than what was intended by the dev team.
Why?
Because resources from the entire alien team can be allocated to a single gorge enabling him to build OC, DC, MC, and hives faster than intended.
This is the sole problem with the balance issue. Once, this resource bug has been fixed everything will be different.
Have no fear, after a few patches, the game will be more balanced.
Seems to me, marines were designed so that their major advantage is in coordination and teamwork. Aliens have a natural advantage over marines in fighting strength. In a game where both sides have little coordination (i.e. almost any pub game) isn't it natural that the aliens will have the upper hand?
I have a great strategy to kill of fades. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As we all know they love to strafe out from a corner and shot and quickly hide again. All you need is a HMG to counter this 100%. Here is how you do: When the fade has shot and just fled crawl, yes crawl towards the corner, but dont go on the other side. Just wait (camp) there and wait for him. And when he next time comes you blaze him. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> The two reasons why this is effective: 1. They have no idea you are there because you crawled. 2. They cant flee because you are so close.
Once got 2 fades this way. No HA, just HMG. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
got to say 30 games in one day? maybe you were tired from all that gaming and couldn't shoot straight? try taking a break every once in a while. it helps.
marines game plan should be to take a hive as soon as possible then attempt to take a second. if they can only get one hive then they just need to hold it until HA + HMG come along and they can normally then expand once again. if they managed to take two hives well they should win easily.
if you're trying to hold a hive make sure to have sieges up or the enemy gorges will just build a horde of defence chambers nearby. Fail to force the fades to retreat some distance for healing and you're practically giving them the hive.
I too have expierenced the same things. I've only seen the marines win once and it was because the aliens didn't build ANY defence at their main hive, so it was overtaken extremely easy.
I'm not sure what i would suggest. first off, on the lanvancouver 1.03 beta server, that laser is utterly useless. if anything it helps the aliens. next up, i would put a limit on onos. I'd say 2 or so. and make them 90 or even 99 resources. Right know as soon as someone sees an onos everyone knows its over.
I do think it needs to be tweaked...but not a whole lot. just little things.
On a side note, I found that there is still a bug in the 1.03b. when marines are in a vent crouched, they appear to be immune to melee damage. stuff like the fade missles or choking gas still hurt them, but as far as skulk bites go (its the only thing i've tested) they appear to be immune. I snuck up on this guy, and bit him in the back atleast 4 times, then he turned around, I got atleast 2 more bites in before he died. doesnt make sense. This was early in the game too..before heavy armor or any major upgrades.
I play almost exclusively as aliens, and for a while I was increasingly frustrated at the ineptitude of my teammates costing us the game (hey, no fault of theirs. We were all newbies once.)
But recently, I've decided to try go marines, to see what it's like. It just so happens that we didn't win a single game, but that's becasue our commanders weren't up to scratch and the alien players were actually good.
Basically, it comes down to how good the commander is, and how good your opponents are. How hard it is to defend against the early skulk rush depends on how skilled the skulks are, how good a shot the marines are, and how the commander distributes them.
Also, like any other RTS, he who moves up the tech tree fastest wins. I should add that, because of the relative inexperince of our commanders, in ALL of the five or six recent games I played as marines we played the entire game with nothing but light armour and light machineguns because the commander couldn't put out roots fast enough.
Yes, it comes down to the commander. I'll admit that losing a forward base hurts marines far more than it hurts aliens, and that a marine is no match for a competent skulk, but a skilled commander is what it takes to win. Note: not "non-newbie". Skilled. The commander doesn't just have to know how to play, or know what he's doing, he has to be GOOD at it. It's the skill of the commander verses the skill of the best three or four kharaa players.
If theres more than 3 people on the aliens side and only one gorge they do not get to build a second hive as soon as you think, I got 3 hives and 4 resources in 15 minutes but I was the *only* alien on the map And what the marines *always* overlook is that we always build no defenses, I and nearly everyone I see never builds defenses till usually second hive or 5-6 resource nozzel taken
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Did you have Carapace level 3 when you got attacked by a HMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I usually buy regeneration, as I am usually the person trudging to the enemy held hive to take down the TF. Saves a few minutes <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I never really notice too much of a difference with or without Carapace versus a HMG, because usually Im paying more attention towards going the other way. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
no they arent overpowered.. i was playing one game last night where we were losing pretty bad.. we were down to the mess hall and our main base and the aliens were starting to bring in onos.. We got together a decent party, got some sieges in mother interface then charged subspace.. set up an emergency base right there just as the onos crushed our main base.. from then on we had that base as a hive and thats it, one RT, and a team of 10, and we won. although getting rid of the onos' was a major pain.
Marines just need to learn to use that fabulous teamwork. I had 3 guys with nade launchers start spamming down a corridor, had two guys with HMGS back them up, then 3 light marines building a turret fact right behind them in a corner, set up a 5-6 sentrys, and a about 4 sieges and let the seiges clear a path farther down the tunnel. Fades wont move far from their regen spots so they pull back to their next line, or, when they come forward we have 3 HMGs and 6 turrets waiting for them. Rinse and repeat. It took a long time, but after 3 or 4 hours we took port hive and then it was all over. We came back from facing 3 hives to winning the map. So no, i would say that from all the tough fought battles in that game (and the fades pushed us back to our hive several times and we had to start over) it is pretty damn balanced. I think the main reason we won is about 4 of the aliens left after seeing us get within eyeshot of a spot we could siege their port hive. Otherwise that could have gone on for an extremely long time.
How are fades too strong? Get up to them close with a hmg, they wont last long at all.
Limiting onoses? Why?, to get an onos you have to have quite a few rt's and if the Aliens have that many, well your gonna lose anyway, you may as well have it end quicker. Also it is possible to klll an onos, and if you haven't lost ALL your rts and they havent got loads you may not see another for a while. Going on this thought of 'Limiting Onoses' why don't we limit HMG+HA marines? I don't want either and i'm sure people that love both sides will say so as well
Hey remember you can't have it so you can kill fades and onoses with lmgs easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because resources from the entire alien team can be allocated to a single gorge enabling him to build OC, DC, MC, and hives faster than intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats only when the rest of the team is already 33/33 or 66/66 or 100/100. Also doesn't the commander get all the resources as well?
Just one thing i would like you to try, Join the 'Random Team'. You will then get a taste of what it's like on both sides. It helps with your strategys of either side as well.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
lol, random team? that will give you a taste of what it is to loose on both teams or what it is like to play as aliens, lol
meh, I have a very low opinion of the HL comunity in general and watching all the tool charge the marine spawn (oh well)
personaly I think all of these to nerf Siege/fade/onos/gorge/my *bleep* are pointless, there are just as many complaints on both sides, thus THE TEAMS ARE EVEN HAHAHAHAHA
The Aliens ARE unfair as it stands. Right now, there is a bug, depending on the lv. of their carapace, where they negate 10%, 20%, 30% damage. This is why onoses, fades, and skulks to some extend seem invincible. Once this issues is resolved, you should see the aliens get crushed in v1.03.
Coil, who is a playtester, can back me up on this.
However, I have to say I win %90 of my games as commander, the only time I lose is when the seige cannons/grenade lauchers do crap damage and I can't get by a wall of lame.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
umm, the armour bug dosn't realy effect THAT much (aliens tend not to run out of armour at high lvls, and it dosn't add that much to skulks)
the time that this actualy becomes a problem is if they run of to regen, they don't have to wait for the armour to regen, that is the big problem with it
again, aliens are allso seriously bugged against them
Bilebomb just dosn't work (thus removing their main answer to the sige), same deal with Xenocide
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol, random team? that will give you a taste of what it is to loose on both teams or what it is like to play as aliens, lol<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Suprisingly you often join the winning team(Or should i say the team that WILL win). But at the start of a game joining 'Random' helps with the choice of what team to go on, I have no preference.
If you join 'Random' and go on a losing side obviously the teams are gonna be uneven so you wouldnt be able to join the winning side anyway. On some servers it always seems the Alien side is picked over marines. So going to diff.servers choosing 'Random' will give you a taste of both sides.(But yes mostly Aliens though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
So what do you people do in any of these circumstances?
I find its more dependant on who won the last round. I joined a game the other day that was in its last few mins, and the aliens were being slaughtered. When the round ended, 70% of the players all piled up into the marine entrance.
Stupid twits, we played for nearly 15 mins as 5 marines against 3 aliens, with about 8 people in th ready room. Sad really.
Regardless, we (the aliens) compleatly owned the marines that round, and it was the exact oposite. Everyone piled up in the alien doorway.
some people has predisposed ideas what species they wish to be when they enter the ready room and no team balance will affect that. the teams can be 5 marines to 4 aliens and they'll still join marines and unbalance the teams. even worse, some will sit in the ready room until a space is available on the team they want, if necessary they'll wait until new people join the server and drop the team gap below two. Saw four people sit in the ready room for five or six minutes waiting for one another to join the outnumbered alien team so they could go marine but none would so they all just waited there meanwhile in the game it was 3 aliens vs. 5 marines. joy.
The onos does NOT need to be nerfed. If they have three hives, you're going to lose anyways. I hear a lot of "You just need to get close to the fades" in this thread. Did it occur to you that this isn't all that easy to do sometimes? It may seem odd, but not all fades are complete idiots. If I somehow am in the unfortunate position of running head on into an HA/HMG marine, I whip out the claws and do my best to run to the back side of him. I'm much faster, after all, and this isn't too hard. Same deal with skulks, realy. Meanwhile, he's trying to follow me, spraying bullets all the time. So he'll probably do significant damage to me, but he'll also probably run right out of bullets, making an easy kill at that point. Now that's just if he somehow gets close. Ideally, you just stay away. I once harried a base with a phase gate all by myself and killed countless marines, many of which with HA/HMG. They, of course, kept pressing their attack on me, so I, of course, kept giving ground and firing rockets until they died. I did have a patch of OC's and DC's, two of each, but they were somewhat far away so the marines never even saw 'em. I eventually took out the base. It was just a resource point, so it wasn't defended quite so vigorously as a hive, but still, it had a gate with constantly appearing marines. Someone mentioned crawling up to the corner with an HMG and waiting. If you can creep up to a corner, a fade can creep around it. And those fades you killed wearing LA? THEY SUCK. They probably stood right in front of you wacking away, didn't they? Fades >> LA, HMG or no.
So anyways, the point of my post is that fades ARE difficult to kill without more than one HA/HMG unless your'e lucky, and that aliens really do have a distinct advantage unless you have an exceptional commander and loyal troops. This is partly 'cuz aliens can tech so darn fast!!! If you have fades, you have two hives, and if you have two hives, you have 3 DC's and 3 MC's. And if you have 3 of each of those, you have fades with FULL COMBAT UPGRADES. Marines are nowhere <i>near</i> maximum upgradedness. Sensory chambers only add nifty, non-combat abilities that you don't really need until you have 3 hives anyways.
Oddly, enough I think I'm detecting a bit of exaggeration here. If 7 marines can't take out 4 rushing skulks... well, there's just a giant skill gap there.
In most cases, your commander was probably just poor. Aliens don't just magically get Fades as the marines are setting up their first little outpost. By the time they have Fades, you should have clamped down on one Hive and be ready to take the battle to another.
Because, after all, the aliens need to go through some steps to get Fades. First they need to have a Skulk get to 13 resources and become Gorge. (Takes a few seconds at the start of a map.) Then they need the Gorge or Gorges to set up resource nozzles (Takes anywhere from a minute to several minutes.) Then they need a Gorge to save up for a second hive. (Which takes a minute, or longer if they try to skip the last step.) Then, having built the hive, they need to wait two minutes for it to go up. At that time, if the alien players have 33 resources they need to wait to get 44 to evolve. In the time it takes for them to evolve, they probably get the resources to upgrade. After upgrading (only a few seconds apiece), they simply need to walk up to a marine outpost. (Of course, perhaps a gorge or two has 44 at the time the 2nd hive goes up, but that certainly can't be the entire team.)
In any event, getting Fades takes a little bit of time. As it should. If its sneaking up on you, you're probably wasting that time. Perhaps, as someone suggested, aliens are skipping back to the ready room to donate resources in v1.02 servers, but you can easily notice that.
Of course, the aliens do have an advantage of sorts as they don't need to rely on a single commander, so a single inexperienced player can't screw them up as much. And they don't need to rely on random new players to help build things, as the gorges themselves can take care of such matters. So I'd be willing to concede that aliens are structured better to suffer less ill effects from a high percentage of inept players.
I agree with Zifnab. There is no way marines can get 2 hives before the aliens grab another one, Aliens will always get Fades... Fades are superior to HA/HMG's in every way. Not only are they faster, but they can blink... with Adren and Regen or Carapace upgrades marine bases, no matter how many turrets they have, are useless. Fades are the anti everything. I'm tired of everyone trying to convince me and other people that the two teams are equal... I think the marines need major boosting, if only to compensate for the fact that the Commander has to do the thinking for the whole team, while the Aliens make all the decisions for themselves (i.e upgrades and morphing). The Aliens are superior, even if its possible *somehow* for the marines to win. I don't think aliens should be able to use phase gates either. In a game I just played 4 Fades warped through a phase gate at a hive, we took out and destroyed the entire base with ease only becasue we caught them before they could equip. I wish all you skeptics would stop assuming that if one has complaints then they are "obviously a newbie", its arragant. 90% of players do all they can in the name of teamwork given what mechanisms they have.
marines have a lot of major advantages that should win the game for them but they suffer from two necessary requirements...
1) their commander must be competent
2) the team must work together at all times and follow the commander's orders
fail either of those and all the marine advantages go out the window.
you don't have to seize a second hive as a marine to win though it obviously helps a shedload. good use of phase gates can keep most marine outposts secure until the arrival of HA + HMG. one game recently we were doing well and were about to seize a second hive in the early game. unfortunately we lost our commander and then had a succession of poor ones, who were in the chair for 2s or so it seemed before they abandoned it. We proceeded to lose mini-base after mini-base to the newly arrived fades. However, with a good commander getting in the chair we managed to retain our waste handling hive and eventually with the arrival of armour and heavy weps, we managed to stalemate them ( esp. as a few unarmoured marines who previously had not helped much now began torun around welding like crazy ). They couldn't push us back any further and we were at that time just getting strong enough to hold them. I had to leave at that point but I've no doubt that after a little bit more time stalemated the marine commander would have taken a second hive and won.
marines who can survive the initial fade rush will more often than not go on to win, it's only when the team self-distructs internally or the commander messes up that games are lost from this point.
Similarly, aliens can be doing very well but **obscenity** defeat from the jaws of victory by their choices. Aliens just have a bit more leeway than marines do in that marines need to work to the commander's demands to win while aliens can co-operate less to win though any serious lack of team work will hamper them mightily.
Again ... just tone down the fades A LITTLE[B] so its not total death when 3 of them are spamming acid rocket at you ( even if you have upgraded HA )
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bicycle Repair Man Posted: Nov 26 2002, 09:53 PM How are fades too strong? Get up to them close with a hmg, they wont last long at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make me sick *throws up in Bicycle Repair Man's face* ... you sir are a moron.
true, once it took me about 6-8 grenades to kill a fade on ns_nothing, and im guessing thats because he ran into them(what a foolish fade) that, and the simple fact that its hard to give most of the players HA because theres more than 100 alarms beeping at the same time on the screen (read: nervous breakdown <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
my impression is that the fixing of the carapace bug in 1.03 has a huge impact on balance
2 hive battles are fairer as Fades are no longer invincible; however early marine rushes are even more deadly as skulks get hardly any gain from carapace now
perhaps your impression varies; you seem to measure marine success by the size of their spawn base, whereas hive control is ALL that matters in my experience
a marine team that keeps a minimal spawn base (or none at all) and hyperrushes 2 hives is downright impossible to stop
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Drizzt+Nov 26 2002, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drizzt @ Nov 26 2002, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Marines definately need more powerful weapons. Like grenade launchers that work. I fired all thirty grenades at an offense chamber once, it was all by itself, no defense chambers, and it didn't have a scratch. The grenades hit it directly, I didn't miss.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> All grenade thingies (siege, bile bomb, nade, xeno) have problems in 1.02. Fixed in 1.03.
Kharaa too strong? Not AGAIN.. "Onos is too strong!" "It's killing me!" "Bahbahbah" OOOOOOOOOOOOH SHUTTUP ALREADY! When marines have HMGs when you barely have a second hive, it feels the same. Problem is half the nitwits running off on their own with HMGs hoping to kill stuff. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> < <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> Stay together, work together! The marines can be overwhelming when played properly, its just that half the time, they arent playing properly. People nab the guns, run off alone, get killed and go "Ooooh fades are too strong! They killed me! Comm: HA AND HMG KPLZTHX!" Bah...if you get creamed, youre either a crap player or your team sucks, not the game balance itself. And it gets tiresome having to read through post after post of "unbalanced!" "we need tactical nukes!" "Siege cannons needs to be toned down!" *sigh*
<!--QuoteBegin--Forlorn+Nov 26 2002, 10:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 26 2002, 10:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Guys, here is a fact:
The Aliens ARE unfair as it stands. Right now, there is a bug, depending on the lv. of their carapace, where they negate 10%, 20%, 30% damage. This is why onoses, fades, and skulks to some extend seem invincible. Once this issues is resolved, you should see the aliens get crushed in v1.03.
However, I have to say I win %90 of my games as commander, the only time I lose is when the seige cannons/grenade lauchers do crap damage and I can't get by a wall of lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hehheh, thank you for proving to us that the aliens are not overpowered. You say that the carapace is bugged and gives aliens a huge advantage, yet you continue on to say that you win 90% of the games when you're the commander. And then you say that the aliens will get crushed after the bug is fixed, I concur.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Twex+Nov 27 2002, 02:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Twex @ Nov 27 2002, 02:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->my impression is that the fixing of the carapace bug in 1.03 has a huge impact on balance
2 hive battles are fairer as Fades are no longer invincible; however early marine rushes are even more deadly as skulks get hardly any gain from carapace now
perhaps your impression varies; you seem to measure marine success by the size of their spawn base, whereas hive control is ALL that matters in my experience
a marine team that keeps a minimal spawn base (or none at all) and hyperrushes 2 hives is downright impossible to stop<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> One has to wonder if that bug was a bug at all.
Considering that a skulk gained 33% life from each carap lvl upgrade, and adren gives you 33% faster regen, and celerity 33% more move, the effect of the (bugged) carapace doesn't seem to be out of line.
After all, Fades had their health/armor increased because they were too weak even WITH the carapace bug...
How am i a moron if i get in close with teammates and rip that fade apart with our hmgs? After a simple weld of each other and if needed med packs from comm or ammo, then off we go again.
Comments
Why?
Because the aliens can build a 2nd hive with sufficient defenses in a significantly shorter time frame than what was intended by the dev team.
Why?
Because resources from the entire alien team can be allocated to a single gorge enabling him to build OC, DC, MC, and hives faster than intended.
This is the sole problem with the balance issue. Once, this resource bug has been fixed everything will be different.
Have no fear, after a few patches, the game will be more balanced.
/ confidential
As we all know they love to strafe out from a corner and shot and quickly hide again. All you need is a HMG to counter this 100%. Here is how you do: When the fade has shot and just fled crawl, yes crawl towards the corner, but dont go on the other side. Just wait (camp) there and wait for him. And when he next time comes you blaze him. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The two reasons why this is effective:
1. They have no idea you are there because you crawled.
2. They cant flee because you are so close.
Once got 2 fades this way. No HA, just HMG. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
marines game plan should be to take a hive as soon as possible then attempt to take a second. if they can only get one hive then they just need to hold it until HA + HMG come along and they can normally then expand once again. if they managed to take two hives well they should win easily.
if you're trying to hold a hive make sure to have sieges up or the enemy gorges will just build a horde of defence chambers nearby. Fail to force the fades to retreat some distance for healing and you're practically giving them the hive.
I'm not sure what i would suggest. first off, on the lanvancouver 1.03 beta server, that laser is utterly useless. if anything it helps the aliens. next up, i would put a limit on onos. I'd say 2 or so. and make them 90 or even 99 resources. Right know as soon as someone sees an onos everyone knows its over.
I do think it needs to be tweaked...but not a whole lot. just little things.
On a side note, I found that there is still a bug in the 1.03b. when marines are in a vent crouched, they appear to be immune to melee damage. stuff like the fade missles or choking gas still hurt them, but as far as skulk bites go (its the only thing i've tested) they appear to be immune. I snuck up on this guy, and bit him in the back atleast 4 times, then he turned around, I got atleast 2 more bites in before he died. doesnt make sense. This was early in the game too..before heavy armor or any major upgrades.
But recently, I've decided to try go marines, to see what it's like. It just so happens that we didn't win a single game, but that's becasue our commanders weren't up to scratch and the alien players were actually good.
Basically, it comes down to how good the commander is, and how good your opponents are. How hard it is to defend against the early skulk rush depends on how skilled the skulks are, how good a shot the marines are, and how the commander distributes them.
Also, like any other RTS, he who moves up the tech tree fastest wins. I should add that, because of the relative inexperince of our commanders, in ALL of the five or six recent games I played as marines we played the entire game with nothing but light armour and light machineguns because the commander couldn't put out roots fast enough.
Yes, it comes down to the commander. I'll admit that losing a forward base hurts marines far more than it hurts aliens, and that a marine is no match for a competent skulk, but a skilled commander is what it takes to win. Note: not "non-newbie". Skilled. The commander doesn't just have to know how to play, or know what he's doing, he has to be GOOD at it. It's the skill of the commander verses the skill of the best three or four kharaa players.
And what the marines *always* overlook is that we always build no defenses, I and nearly everyone I see never builds defenses till usually second hive or 5-6 resource nozzel taken
I usually buy regeneration, as I am usually the person trudging to the enemy held hive to take down the TF. Saves a few minutes <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I never really notice too much of a difference with or without Carapace versus a HMG, because usually Im paying more attention towards going the other way. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Marines just need to learn to use that fabulous teamwork. I had 3 guys with nade launchers start spamming down a corridor, had two guys with HMGS back them up, then 3 light marines building a turret fact right behind them in a corner, set up a 5-6 sentrys, and a about 4 sieges and let the seiges clear a path farther down the tunnel. Fades wont move far from their regen spots so they pull back to their next line, or, when they come forward we have 3 HMGs and 6 turrets waiting for them. Rinse and repeat.
It took a long time, but after 3 or 4 hours we took port hive and then it was all over. We came back from facing 3 hives to winning the map. So no, i would say that from all the tough fought battles in that game (and the fades pushed us back to our hive several times and we had to start over) it is pretty damn balanced. I think the main reason we won is about 4 of the aliens left after seeing us get within eyeshot of a spot we could siege their port hive. Otherwise that could have gone on for an extremely long time.
Get up to them close with a hmg, they wont last long at all.
Limiting onoses?
Why?, to get an onos you have to have quite a few rt's and if the Aliens have that many, well your gonna lose anyway, you may as well have it end quicker. Also it is possible to klll an onos, and if you haven't lost ALL your rts and they havent got loads you may not see another for a while. Going on this thought of 'Limiting Onoses' why don't we limit HMG+HA marines? I don't want either and i'm sure people that love both sides will say so as well
Hey remember you can't have it so you can kill fades and onoses with lmgs easily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because resources from the entire alien team can be allocated to a single gorge enabling him to build OC, DC, MC, and hives faster than intended.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats only when the rest of the team is already 33/33 or 66/66 or 100/100. Also doesn't the commander get all the resources as well?
Just one thing i would like you to try, Join the 'Random Team'. You will then get a taste of what it's like on both sides. It helps with your strategys of either side as well.
meh, I have a very low opinion of the HL comunity in general and watching all the tool charge the marine spawn (oh well)
personaly I think all of these to nerf Siege/fade/onos/gorge/my *bleep* are pointless, there are just as many complaints on both sides, thus THE TEAMS ARE EVEN HAHAHAHAHA
no one likes it so they must be fair, lol
/me is going insane
The Aliens ARE unfair as it stands. Right now, there is a bug, depending on the lv. of their carapace, where they negate 10%, 20%, 30% damage. This is why onoses, fades, and skulks to some extend seem invincible. Once this issues is resolved, you should see the aliens get crushed in v1.03.
Coil, who is a playtester, can back me up on this.
However, I have to say I win %90 of my games as commander, the only time I lose is when the seige cannons/grenade lauchers do crap damage and I can't get by a wall of lame.
the time that this actualy becomes a problem is if they run of to regen, they don't have to wait for the armour to regen, that is the big problem with it
again, aliens are allso seriously bugged against them
Bilebomb just dosn't work (thus removing their main answer to the sige), same deal with Xenocide
meh, what ever
Suprisingly you often join the winning team(Or should i say the team that WILL win). But at the start of a game joining 'Random' helps with the choice of what team to go on, I have no preference.
If you join 'Random' and go on a losing side obviously the teams are gonna be uneven so you wouldnt be able to join the winning side anyway. On some servers it always seems the Alien side is picked over marines. So going to diff.servers choosing 'Random' will give you a taste of both sides.(But yes mostly Aliens though <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
So what do you people do in any of these circumstances?
Stupid twits, we played for nearly 15 mins as 5 marines against 3 aliens, with about 8 people in th ready room. Sad really.
Regardless, we (the aliens) compleatly owned the marines that round, and it was the exact oposite. Everyone piled up in the alien doorway.
I hear a lot of "You just need to get close to the fades" in this thread.
Did it occur to you that this isn't all that easy to do sometimes? It may seem odd, but not all fades are complete idiots.
If I somehow am in the unfortunate position of running head on into an HA/HMG marine, I whip out the claws and do my best to run to the back side of him. I'm much faster, after all, and this isn't too hard. Same deal with skulks, realy. Meanwhile, he's trying to follow me, spraying bullets all the time. So he'll probably do significant damage to me, but he'll also probably run right out of bullets, making an easy kill at that point.
Now that's just if he somehow gets close. Ideally, you just stay away. I once harried a base with a phase gate all by myself and killed countless marines, many of which with HA/HMG. They, of course, kept pressing their attack on me, so I, of course, kept giving ground and firing rockets until they died. I did have a patch of OC's and DC's, two of each, but they were somewhat far away so the marines never even saw 'em.
I eventually took out the base. It was just a resource point, so it wasn't defended quite so vigorously as a hive, but still, it had a gate with constantly appearing marines.
Someone mentioned crawling up to the corner with an HMG and waiting. If you can creep up to a corner, a fade can creep around it. And those fades you killed wearing LA? THEY SUCK. They probably stood right in front of you wacking away, didn't they? Fades >> LA, HMG or no.
So anyways, the point of my post is that fades ARE difficult to kill without more than one HA/HMG unless your'e lucky, and that aliens really do have a distinct advantage unless you have an exceptional commander and loyal troops. This is partly 'cuz aliens can tech so darn fast!!! If you have fades, you have two hives, and if you have two hives, you have 3 DC's and 3 MC's. And if you have 3 of each of those, you have fades with FULL COMBAT UPGRADES. Marines are nowhere <i>near</i> maximum upgradedness. Sensory chambers only add nifty, non-combat abilities that you don't really need until you have 3 hives anyways.
-END RANT-
In most cases, your commander was probably just poor. Aliens don't just magically get Fades as the marines are setting up their first little outpost. By the time they have Fades, you should have clamped down on one Hive and be ready to take the battle to another.
Because, after all, the aliens need to go through some steps to get Fades. First they need to have a Skulk get to 13 resources and become Gorge. (Takes a few seconds at the start of a map.) Then they need the Gorge or Gorges to set up resource nozzles (Takes anywhere from a minute to several minutes.) Then they need a Gorge to save up for a second hive. (Which takes a minute, or longer if they try to skip the last step.) Then, having built the hive, they need to wait two minutes for it to go up. At that time, if the alien players have 33 resources they need to wait to get 44 to evolve. In the time it takes for them to evolve, they probably get the resources to upgrade. After upgrading (only a few seconds apiece), they simply need to walk up to a marine outpost. (Of course, perhaps a gorge or two has 44 at the time the 2nd hive goes up, but that certainly can't be the entire team.)
In any event, getting Fades takes a little bit of time. As it should. If its sneaking up on you, you're probably wasting that time. Perhaps, as someone suggested, aliens are skipping back to the ready room to donate resources in v1.02 servers, but you can easily notice that.
Of course, the aliens do have an advantage of sorts as they don't need to rely on a single commander, so a single inexperienced player can't screw them up as much. And they don't need to rely on random new players to help build things, as the gorges themselves can take care of such matters. So I'd be willing to concede that aliens are structured better to suffer less ill effects from a high percentage of inept players.
I'm tired of everyone trying to convince me and other people that the two teams are equal... I think the marines need major boosting, if only to compensate for the fact that the Commander has to do the thinking for the whole team, while the Aliens make all the decisions for themselves (i.e upgrades and morphing). The Aliens are superior, even if its possible *somehow* for the marines to win. I don't think aliens should be able to use phase gates either. In a game I just played 4 Fades warped through a phase gate at a hive, we took out and destroyed the entire base with ease only becasue we caught them before they could equip.
I wish all you skeptics would stop assuming that if one has complaints then they are "obviously a newbie", its arragant. 90% of players do all they can in the name of teamwork given what mechanisms they have.
1) their commander must be competent
2) the team must work together at all times and follow the commander's orders
fail either of those and all the marine advantages go out the window.
you don't have to seize a second hive as a marine to win though it obviously helps a shedload. good use of phase gates can keep most marine outposts secure until the arrival of HA + HMG. one game recently we were doing well and were about to seize a second hive in the early game. unfortunately we lost our commander and then had a succession of poor ones, who were in the chair for 2s or so it seemed before they abandoned it. We proceeded to lose mini-base after mini-base to the newly arrived fades. However, with a good commander getting in the chair we managed to retain our waste handling hive and eventually with the arrival of armour and heavy weps, we managed to stalemate them ( esp. as a few unarmoured marines who previously had not helped much now began torun around welding like crazy ). They couldn't push us back any further and we were at that time just getting strong enough to hold them. I had to leave at that point but I've no doubt that after a little bit more time stalemated the marine commander would have taken a second hive and won.
marines who can survive the initial fade rush will more often than not go on to win, it's only when the team self-distructs internally or the commander messes up that games are lost from this point.
Similarly, aliens can be doing very well but **obscenity** defeat from the jaws of victory by their choices. Aliens just have a bit more leeway than marines do in that marines need to work to the commander's demands to win while aliens can co-operate less to win though any serious lack of team work will hamper them mightily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bicycle Repair Man Posted: Nov 26 2002, 09:53 PM
How are fades too strong?
Get up to them close with a hmg, they wont last long at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make me sick *throws up in Bicycle Repair Man's face* ... you sir are a moron.
2 hive battles are fairer as Fades are no longer invincible; however early marine rushes are even more deadly as skulks get hardly any gain from carapace now
perhaps your impression varies; you seem to measure marine success by the size of their spawn base, whereas hive control is ALL that matters in my experience
a marine team that keeps a minimal spawn base (or none at all) and hyperrushes 2 hives is downright impossible to stop
All grenade thingies (siege, bile bomb, nade, xeno) have problems in 1.02. Fixed in 1.03.
PUBLIC SERVERS
Not AGAIN..
"Onos is too strong!"
"It's killing me!"
"Bahbahbah"
OOOOOOOOOOOOH SHUTTUP ALREADY!
When marines have HMGs when you barely have a second hive, it feels the same.
Problem is half the nitwits running off on their own with HMGs hoping to kill stuff.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> < <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
Stay together, work together! The marines can be overwhelming when played properly, its just that half the time, they arent playing properly. People nab the guns, run off alone, get killed and go "Ooooh fades are too strong! They killed me! Comm: HA AND HMG KPLZTHX!"
Bah...if you get creamed, youre either a crap player or your team sucks, not the game balance itself.
And it gets tiresome having to read through post after post of "unbalanced!" "we need tactical nukes!" "Siege cannons needs to be toned down!"
*sigh*
The Aliens ARE unfair as it stands. Right now, there is a bug, depending on the lv. of their carapace, where they negate 10%, 20%, 30% damage. This is why onoses, fades, and skulks to some extend seem invincible. Once this issues is resolved, you should see the aliens get crushed in v1.03.
However, I have to say I win %90 of my games as commander, the only time I lose is when the seige cannons/grenade lauchers do crap damage and I can't get by a wall of lame.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hehheh, thank you for proving to us that the aliens are not overpowered. You say that the carapace is bugged and gives aliens a huge advantage, yet you continue on to say that you win 90% of the games when you're the commander. And then you say that the aliens will get crushed after the bug is fixed, I concur.
2 hive battles are fairer as Fades are no longer invincible; however early marine rushes are even more deadly as skulks get hardly any gain from carapace now
perhaps your impression varies; you seem to measure marine success by the size of their spawn base, whereas hive control is ALL that matters in my experience
a marine team that keeps a minimal spawn base (or none at all) and hyperrushes 2 hives is downright impossible to stop<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One has to wonder if that bug was a bug at all.
Considering that a skulk gained 33% life from each carap lvl upgrade, and adren gives you 33% faster regen, and celerity 33% more move, the effect of the (bugged) carapace doesn't seem to be out of line.
After all, Fades had their health/armor increased because they were too weak even WITH the carapace bug...
After a simple weld of each other and if needed med packs from comm or ammo, then off we go again.