3 Types of Servers to help with rookies, stomping, smurfs and player retention? *NEED SUGGESTIONS*
Yojimbo
England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
Hi guys,
After deliberating on newcomers corner on discord, I decided to make a post to gather thoughts of what people would think of this idea...
3 types of server, colour coded indicating level of difficulty.
***PLEASE NOTE*** Hive values are to serve as a guideline and not actual figures.
Rookies Only <- Less than 100 (Hive and/or steam hours). *Server name colour coded GREEN*
Rookie friendly -> 100 to 1000 hours (Hive and/or steam hours) (Need input here on how much is deemed suitable). *Server name colour coded YELLOW*
Veterans only (Subject to name change) -> 1000 (Hive and/or steam hours). *Server name colour coded RED*
This of course is a very basic and quick draft of what is being proposed, what can we add to it? How can we expand to it?
I'd love to hear your thoughts and input.
After deliberating on newcomers corner on discord, I decided to make a post to gather thoughts of what people would think of this idea...
3 types of server, colour coded indicating level of difficulty.
***PLEASE NOTE*** Hive values are to serve as a guideline and not actual figures.
Rookies Only <- Less than 100 (Hive and/or steam hours). *Server name colour coded GREEN*
- These servers will be the first stop rookies make, where they can learn the game at their own pace without outside interference of being stomped (Which does happen, no matter how many times people deny it).
- Only issue I can foresee happening here is smurfs, they are not a pandemic in NS2 at the moment but just ONE smurf account can be enough to put a rookie off, maybe active server administrators can help police this issue?.
Rookie friendly -> 100 to 1000 hours (Hive and/or steam hours) (Need input here on how much is deemed suitable). *Server name colour coded YELLOW*
- Features a sizeable portion of the player base, smurfs are no longer a problem but you still have the possibility of very high skilled players influencing the outcome of games? How can we work towards fixing this?
Veterans only (Subject to name change) -> 1000 (Hive and/or steam hours). *Server name colour coded RED*
- Makes up the rest of the community, the true training grounds, highly skilled players influencing games is negated as remaining players have the ability to use teamwork to overcome any significant advantage?
This of course is a very basic and quick draft of what is being proposed, what can we add to it? How can we expand to it?
I'd love to hear your thoughts and input.
Comments
Any idea would be a help than to what we have in place at the moment, I know PDT has some plans but it's hard to determine WHAT they have in mind at the moment.
I really think this would benefit everybody, rookies and veterans alike if realized properly. However, how on earth do you enforce this across the board?? You can't really impose these limits on community servers - that would be bloody murder.
On the other hand, if you don't impose it on all servers, then I fear the effort is moot. People will simply gather at the community servers without restrictions.
I've seen people with 1500 hours that I can't even come close to competing with, and I have over 2200... Also just because someone has high hours doesn't mean they'll stomp. I've gone into games with rookies and commanded or played gorge. (and seen a few others that will do likewise)
I think it would be far better to have only 2 types of server (like we have now) only sorted by kd ratio instead of hours. The green "casual" servers with under 2.0 kdr and the white "pro" servers for those with over 2.0...
Because honestly the only players I ever really see stomping rookies all have over 2.0.. (some even have over 3.0) They are the problem imo.
Plus anyone who did stomp on the "casual" servers would end up with a kdr over 2.0, which would then force them to play with the pros.
Yes, these are the things I'd need input for, as I can't find a suitable medium at the moment!
I think we should gather ideas regarding the values proposed, if we can overcome that first we can iron out and fine tune implementation among servers
Yes you are correct this is similar to what infamous from NSL stated, we all know hours does NOT directly correlate skill however this is the only medium I could think of, perhaps a mixture of hive hours -/- KDR? more than open to suggestions on another alternative though!
https://trello.com/c/BvQL7Qda
Of course normal servers would still be there, but they wouldn't have any tag on them, just normal servers with a white name
One thing that was discussed in Discord was having a "comp" tag for servers that are competitive. They would show up blue in the server browser. This, coupled with rookies only servers sounds like it makes a lot of sense:
1.) Rookies Only ( < 100 hrs only - Green in server browser )
2.) Casual ( no restrictions - White in server browser )
3.) Competitive ( > 100 hrs only - Blue in server browser )
That feels like the right balance. The default position should be Casual, with Rookies Only and Competitive making up the minority.
The problems arise because of this:
Skill is extremely difficult to quantify.
Hours played means a lot, it's the simplest solution but imperfect at best. I've got close to 2K hours, and I can't hope to compete with some people i know with less, and am on par with some people I know with more. As we discuss everytime someone complains about the hive ranking system, it's basically extremely difficult to put a number on skill any other way.
There are some of us who sometimes enjoy helping rookies or less-experienced players. Maybe we're masochists, but some of the best games I've had were with me commanding a fresh cut of greenies. I agree that I shouldn't be on the field among greens, but sometimes I feel like i have to be when I see that the enemy team has someone of equal or better skill than I am (fight nukes with nukes?).
Maybe this simply shouldn't be allowed except on certain community servers (where there was a conscious decision to disregard the separation). Maybe we should give up on trying to teach the rookies and just let them play the game in peace... For that to stand up, this game's gotta be a lot simpler IMO. But maybe, just maybe it'll work.
I agree that some form of seperation/tiered system is needed, but the best method would be one that we can't see. Where it just happens behind the scenes (i.e. where the play-now button just populates hidden servers with the appropriate level of players, leaving community servers to their own devices).
Higher skill players can captain teams, helping create balanced games, and encouraging communication, through which new players would become better.
Captains games make better game balance that even the best shuffle formula.
I feel you have the right idea shameless, never thought of removing restrictions for casual, I can see alot of community servers in this area so you have a blend of low/high skill players.
Yes this is what myself and mofo was discussing, as mentioned earlier hours does not directly correlate skill, perhaps we could implement kdr / acc % into the scenario also.
During my time in NS2 there have been quite a few players (who I won't name) that I've seen stomping in a rookie friendly server. When I open up the server browser and point out the "white" server with higher skilled players they should play on instead (usually the TGNS server) they reply with things like "nah I have more fun here" - and they have 80+ kills and under 5 deaths, slaughtering everyone as a JP/SG Marine.
Also 100 hours is a ridiculously short amount of time for a game like this, especially when talking about a competitive server. But if you make it any higher than you introduce pro level players sticking to casual servers on their "smurf" accounts... Another reason why I think it should go by KDR... Or maybe even a mix of KDR/SPM... (score per minute)
Besides what happens to those rookies when they suddenly hit 100 hours.. They'll be forced into the "casual" servers with all the high level players, get stomped, and (imo) be more likely to quit because now all the "good" servers for them are locked...
Going by KDR/SPM would keep them as a "rookie" until they improved enough for their stats to lock them out. And by then they'd be good enough to not be utterly destroyed by the higher skilled players in the casual servers.
There will be some people with 100 hours that really want to learn from the 1000+ hour players, and there will be other people with 100 hours that just want to stick to casual. The difference is the mindset: "I'm just here to have fun" vs. "I'm here to play with better people so I can get better myself". We should try to capture those people and funnel them into competitive servers, and I think 100 hours is a reasonable lower bar from which to do that. If they are willingly joining a competitive server, then they are consciously deciding to play against (and with) strong players.
Remember, the higher you set that bar for competitive, the more likely you are to have comp players joining casual servers (and stomping).
I think shameless said it best to be honest, wow, that was quicker than I imagined rofl!
Now to wait for trello and see how that transform, hopefully we could use this formula and apply it at a later date.
This would also mean, a player who is medium skilled but only plays with high skillers would drop its KDR so it would look like he is more noob than a pretty beginner being good in rookie servers.
It would also encourage people to stop attacking RTs but only camping for enemies.
What is the intended purpose of rookie only servers?
It is a safe place rookies can play after completing the tutorial. In rookie only servers they are only with other rookies. They get to explore the game at their own pace without the pressure of veteran expectations.
As such, a 100 hour hive limit is incredibly high for this purpose. 90% of the players have left by then. Instead of focusing on hours to segregate by, segregate by hive level. This is how rookie mode is distinguished right now. You are a rookie until you reach hive level 3.
Currently the Hive is using to calculate the players level.
This means you reach level 3 with 7500 score points. Assuming that ns2 players collects about 5-10 score points per minute it takes around 13-25 hours to reach level 3. Why is this better than just using hours? Because the stronger players will leave rookie mode sooner, and the weaker players will stay rookie longer. The same can be said for segregation.
So what I recommend for rookie only servers is a limit of hive level 5. This way it is more in line with the official rookie designation of level 3. Theoretically it would take 22-42 hours for someone to reach level 5. After level 5 a play can no longer join the rookie servers.
This is similar to how nosgoth has their rookie only servers set up. In nosgoth, they force you to do a quick tutorial just like ns2. After this they give you the option of playing on rookie only servers until you are level 10, or you can play on normal servers. Rookie only servers should do the same thing in ns2.
My argument against veteran only servers is that they do not fill. Many of you might remember the KKG servers. They had a >100 hour, >300 hour, and >1000 hour servers. Which one seeded? The >100 hour one did most, and it was not every night. The problem here is that there are so few players in the playerbase with over >100 hours. NA does have one successful veteran only server. It is called "No Rookies Pub" and it seems to not have a problem seeding. It has developed a community that only plays pubs there. I highly doubt another such server could seed regularly? Think about how few players have more than 100 hours, how many of those are online at a given point, and then how many of them would want to play on that server. That leaves maybe one servers worth of people.
Now if you are simply suggesting we have rookie only and veteran only servers, we already do. They go unused. Shine allows this functionality already. We have had veteran and rookie only servers for sometime now yet they go mostly unused. We simply do not have the playerbase to support segregation beyond the true rookies.
Im brought this up ages ago multiple times.
The point is: If the game is on sale the game NEED a "safe" place for rookies where they can learn the maps and the gamebasics by there own.
This plus the better upcoming tutorial should be a good start for all new players.
Maybe they learning the game "wrong" there, but this doesnt care in this context.
I also think that 100hrs are way to much.
Most new players didnt pass the 20hrs mark, so i think around 20 should be ok.
I also think that the times of high skill servers are over.
With luck you can fill maybe one or two.
But its always good to have these kind of servers.
I think the most important factor for this split now are the rookie only servers with an autoban function based on accuracy/kdr to kick possible smurfs.
And the players should not be able to choose that they want to play normal or rookie only servers after they reached this point.
This would only end in more harassing against new players "WTF, a green here? Why didndt you play on your servers, fukin noob" (only a example)
They should forced to play against there level at the beginning.
We talk about "safe place" in the same way we think about anti-cheat. We all want to know folks aren't being dishonest. We've created for ourselves a social taboo around cheating, as we've all mutually agreed that cheating is unnecessarily selfish, does more harm than good to everyone's experience, and has no place among competitive players (remove this mutual agreement, and banning cheaters is mere draconian arrogance).
The competitive scene's ultimate solution to cheating is social. Tools and data contribute to acceptably imperfect human analysis and enforcement. When it takes a lot of time and energy on leadership's part, it's worth it to preserve the stakeholders' confidence. Smurfing might complicate this enforcement, but it doesn't at all stop it.
The competitive leadership could create around habitual rookie server stomping the same taboo and enforcement they've created around cheating. They could together agree that it's unnecessarily selfish, does more harm to the title than good, and has no place among competitive players (without this agreement, banning for habitual rookie stomping is mere draconian arrogance). They could use tools and data to perform acceptably imperfect analysis and enforcement. It could be worth time and energy to preserve the rookies' confidence that they're not being lied to by a "rookies only" label, and it would create for the rookies a positive first impression of a competitive culture that has been actively caring for and about them from their very beginnings with the title. Smurfing might complicate this enforcement, but it needn't at all stop it.
I spectated for a while tonight and it seems to be working well. Surprisingly balanced rounds.
True as this is I think that Veteran Only servers are a boon to NS2. Even if they currently go unused, this option should still exist, and honestly should be advertised.
A fair number (read most) Veterans (I'm talking Comp player level veterans) despise Pub play. Sure, this is by far the smallest segment of NS2's playerbase in existence, but they do exist so I'll bring them up.
Veterans want one of two things when playing a game of NS2:
1. To have a "relaxing" game where they shut down and just do whatever they want, since no one is going to listen to them and even if they did, the level of play wouldn't be high enough for them to actually accomplish anything.
2. To have a solid high-level game, where the playercount remains small, teams are even, and everyone on both teams know what they're doing.
1 causes stomping. Because even if there's just one veteran on a team, they can influence the game dramatically. If some of their friends join, that's even more of a stomp. Veterans flock together by nature of the friends they've built up over time.
2 is a rarity, indeed the only way many veterans ever hope to get these kinds of games anymore is by joining a competitive team, or through gathers. Which means, they can't play outside of these more organized systems, unless they want headaches.
If a "veteran" tier of servers was introduced, this would give people looking for higher-level play a place to go. Ideally this would reduce the instances of 1, and increase the odds of 2.
I think a hive requirement would work well, maybe around lv 30.
Here's my vision of this's implementation in NS2:
Main Menu's Play now Button seperates into three buttons:
Rookie, Casual, Veteran
If someone's seeking to test their skills in Veteran play, they go for Vet, otherwise, it's business as usual. Server browser remains as usual. Server Ops can tag their servers as either Veteran or Casual. Veteran servers come with the idea that you will be yelled at, things will be taken seriously. Similar to Ranked play in other games heck, a visible ranking system at the end of each game might drive this point home (thinking rocket leauge style).
This. Most people like myself don't have as much free time as they used to... so when I want to jump on and play, I typically don't want to seed a server.
Rookie Only and Normal servers are the way to go. Veteran servers are far to scarce to have their own designated server type. The whole idea of Rookie Friendly is the real issue and should be removed. It's misleading and causes more problems than it actually fixes.
I still maintain that Rookie, Casual, and Competitive are the three types of servers that should appear in the browser, but I'm definitely open to adjusting the hour thresholds (or using hive level).
That creates 3 overlapping buckets, with restrictions on the ends, and the vast majority in the middle. Enforced by the server browser, and color coded accordingly.
Again, if veteran servers haven't historically populated, then coloring them and dropping the hour requirement to a universally low level, people WILL seed them, because there is plenty of desire among regular players to NOT play with rookies.
First off, I am not sure that I think the idea laid out in OP I'd is going to work I think rookies having a safe place to learn is vitally important, but beyond that, there are seriously so many different levels of player skill in this game that just trying to have such a wide gamut of players all in the same fray (kind of how it is now I guess) hadn't worked out well in past.
I've felt that the skill system as it currently is has been decent in sorting out those players who are most likely to win, which I think most of agree is an okay way of determining "skill." I've also felt, as I'm sure lots of you do too, that the way it builds teams from the numbers is not always as reliable. Factor in the whole issue of some newbs starting at 1000 and some at 0 and it really falls apart. So I think all of what I'd like to suggest is hypothetical and wouldn't make much difference until the fabled "hive 2.0"
So continuing on here; imho, rookie, casual, and comp isn't an accurate enough way of sorting the varied skill differences. Even within the "higher skilled" communities, there is a lot of separation. PUGs don't happen anymore, the nrp captains is a lot less active since gathers picked up. Now even within gathers there can be large enough skill gaps to either make it very difficult or unenjoyable for the lower skilled players to keep up, and also takes away from the higher skilled player's enjoyment of the game as well. Also, while the gather system and interface is very slick, I'm torn between thinking it's a shame that players who are looking for actual organized games who don't have a team have to go through so much outside of what has been developed to get a decent game, and also thinking that it's a good system and I'm not sure if something similar got implemented into vanilla that gatherers would use it since pubs will always carry a stigma. So that was in response to the "competitive servers" idea and again why I'm not sure that would work.
So getting to my real suggestion, imho in any activity or hobby there are 5 tiers of ability/comprehension:
-Rookie
-Novice
-Advanced (veteran)
-Expert
-Guru
I think ns2 has all these, though the populations of each tier are not close to equal, but player numbers will pretty much always be a problem at this point unless we do see an upsurge in player count. We did have over 900 CONCURRENT players over the weekend which is pretty good for us.
Anyways, imagine we keep hive skill calculation about the same, keep it elo-based, separate alien/marine elos and separate commander elos. Now say that your elo is organized into these 5 tiers, but say we swap them with colors or numbers. For this example, I'll use colors. So imagine elo ranging 0 - 500 is rookie (green), 501 - 1000 is novice (blue), 1001 - 1500 is veteran (white), 1501 - 2000 is advanced (yellow), and 2000 + is guru (red). These numbers could/should be tweaked, but again, this is an example. So far, still pretty similar to what we have with the equals, yellow, red we already have in the server browser. But my idea is that elo is enforced. By this I mean, one would only be allowed to play on servers in which the average elo is within one tier of your own. In this way, you could still play with people who are better than you to learn, but no so much better that you're constantly spanked. Accordingly, you could be allowed to play with players a tier below you to help them out and for the sake of not being contstricted to a lined amount of servers. So rookies can only play on rookie or novice servers, while novices can play on rookie, novice, and veteran servers. Another perk of this idea would be that people could climb ladders, and once certain rings are reached, not be allowed to go back down to stomp. So "Guru" level players would not be allowed to come and stomp a server with an average skill level of advanced.
So again, I realize there are a lot of things that prevent this idea from fully working like small player base and the current hive system being slightly flawed BUT, maybe there's something to the elo enforcement idea.
TL;DR
when/if hive 2.0 is out, maintain elo-based skill organization, separate players into 5 tiers based on skill, players can only play on servers with an average skill within one tier of their own - Elo enforcement.
Ideally there would be dedicated servers for each tier, but since all servers anymore are community operated, this is another limiting factor given player count.
Consider the above as just brainstorming.
As for veterans server they just don't work, 3/4 of the games are marines wins with very agressive and short rounds.
Edit ; we can also keep the server browser as is and add a matchmaking system.
Main features:
The goal is to create a safe and friendly environment in which new players can explore and learn the game at their own pace. They should be able to make mistakes and learn from them without having to fear to pull down the hole team.
About veteran servers:
I personally believe if all players would join the servers based on their "actual" player skill (using e.g. "play now") we would have servers for each kind of skill group in all geographical regions. Furthermore if players want to play competitively we should motivate them to participate in competitive gather and league games.
The ultimate goal would be including a matchmaking and league system ( cooperating with the ensl ) into NS2. So we have environments for all players to have fun and exciting rounds.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Sweet!
Even with rookie only / bootcamp integration, are we all in agreement that there should be two servers only with the removal of rookie friendly?
Rookie only and "casual" seems the way to go so far, this still doesn't solve the problem of very high skilled players influencing the gameplay dramatically though.