Actually playing rounds on this I can only say 100% winwin.
Makes alien vision more useful.
Looks better, especially with alien structures producing their own light.
Adds a whole new atmosphere and mood.
Its just.. excellent
Yes. I can't really understand how someone can not like it. Dark room in alien territory are not pitch black. They are just dark. If you can't see anything, your monitor or eyes are not working properly. This is such a huge plus in atmosphere and makes SENSE, infestation spreads over lighting sources like lamps. It also very cool to use your flashlights in that case and makes it an even better experience, it is what you would expect as human when you enter alien territory. Please keep this and I hope it remains untouched in comp mod, but I doubt it. It is also nice to have something new that you have to adapt to.
As josh says, why it cant just be a simple toggle is beyond me, like EVERY new feature it's instantly forced on everyone and a lot of people don't care for it.
Because it would create an unfair advantage for those that use that toggle, making it pretty much mandatory. Also creating options for everything possible in the game is a support nightmare, its just not maintanable. Imho NS2 already has way too many options, you just never know what combination of options will cause some obscure bug.
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Options come with a support cost (already stated above), and they also come with a user experience cost. As a user, the number of options in NS2 is already high.
I think the other thing to consider here too is how slowly aliens tend to expand map control over capable marine teams. cyst and infestation slowly spread and most games from my experience aliens tend to be very fortunate if they have even 4 rts at minute 5 (so around four rooms of map control)
I actually like this cause at least the defensive advantage for aliens is slightly better (so hopefully more sneak attacks from darker corners of a room and least "run as madlyfast as i can and hope he's not <20% accuracy lol) and this defensive advantage takes longer to become apparent at any rate, if one cyst is truly causing pitch blackened rooms that can always be addressed via algorithm. And as this game always some of its best tense fights (imo) as rooms lighting was going out, this makes that experience much more frequent than when just getting base rushed.
As josh says, why it cant just be a simple toggle is beyond me, like EVERY new feature it's instantly forced on everyone and a lot of people don't care for it.
Because it would create an unfair advantage for those that use that toggle, making it pretty much mandatory. Also creating options for everything possible in the game is a support nightmare, its just not maintanable. Imho NS2 already has way too many options, you just never know what combination of options will cause some obscure bug.
Going back to my point, using minimal infestation is HUGE disadvantage for frame rate reasons as well as the infestation bubbles hide certain entities and/or skulks in rare cases. It is no different than this visual change.
As josh says, why it cant just be a simple toggle is beyond me, like EVERY new feature it's instantly forced on everyone and a lot of people don't care for it.
Because it would create an unfair advantage for those that use that toggle, making it pretty much mandatory. Also creating options for everything possible in the game is a support nightmare, its just not maintanable. Imho NS2 already has way too many options, you just never know what combination of options will cause some obscure bug.
You should remove all the options and just force all the high quality settings. This works well for console gamers it would probably solve all of NS2's problems. Framerate cap it too, don't forget to force resolution while you're at it.
Or what about leaving it as a server toggle? So it can easily be changed and everyone in the server has the same look. Fixes the comp community complaints, but doesn't ruin what is the intended goal of this change. I would hope adding this option wouldn't cause any bugs as it's just tied to the lighting, and the old way seemed to have no issues.
Flashlights are specific use and even then aren't great..
They're not really that specific anymore - when you are in territory that is not marine owned /powered you turn it on.
How could the flashlight be improved in your opinion?
it doesn't do much for people who want to be competitive.
I think it's pretty clear that the competitive scene was not the target for this change, nor was it that much of a concern probably, given the reliable usage of comp mod.
Like you and @Luchs inferred: those that are competitive are going to do their own thing anyways. *shrug*
it doesn't do much for people who want to be competitive.
I think it's pretty clear that the competitive scene was not the target for this change, nor was it that much of a concern probably, given the reliable usage of comp mod.
Like you and @Luchs inferred: those that are competitive are going to do their own thing anyways. *shrug*
As far as I know, both @xDragon and @Mendasp are done updating their mods to fix things. Relying on modders to fix things for a significant portion of the community is a terrible approach to game design.
As josh says, why it cant just be a simple toggle is beyond me, like EVERY new feature it's instantly forced on everyone and a lot of people don't care for it.
Because it would create an unfair advantage for those that use that toggle, making it pretty much mandatory. Also creating options for everything possible in the game is a support nightmare, its just not maintanable. Imho NS2 already has way too many options, you just never know what combination of options will cause some obscure bug.
If you want to play the "creates additional work" card then so be it... but if you are telling me there shouldn't be an option because it creates a competitive advantage, you're more oblivious of the current options menu than I thought. Atmospherics, rich infestation, bloom... just to name a few radically affect FPS and game aspects giving anyone with them turned off a huge advantage.
As far as I know, both @xDragon and @Mendasp are done updating their mods to fix things. Relying on modders to fix things for a significant portion of the community is a terrible approach to game design.
This is exactly what I was going to write regarding what Iron said.
Relying on modders to fix things for a significant portion of the community is a terrible approach to game design.
That's not what is being said here??
We're not talking about things that need to be "fixed", we're talking about design decisions that are not considering competitive desires.
Competive desires have frequently differed from vanilla NS2 for years now, enough to create a mod as a standard for competitive play.
Because of this, I presume there is less concern over doing something that is not embraced by that portion of the community.
Relying on modders to fix things for a significant portion of the community is a terrible approach to game design.
That's not what is being said here??
We're not talking about things that need to be "fixed", we're talking about design decisions that are not considering competitive desires.
Competive desires have frequently differed from vanilla NS2 for years now, enough to create a mod as a standard for competitive play.
Because of this, I presume there is less concern over doing something that is not embraced by that portion of the community.
Fair enough, but goes back to the recent requests - what about the idea of a server toggle or client side toggle? Would you consider it? The comp community is voicing their opinion, why not make everyone happy? It's a cool change, but it would be even cooler if it didn't bug a decent portion of the community.
Relying on modders to fix things for a significant portion of the community is a terrible approach to game design.
That's not what is being said here??
We're not talking about things that need to be "fixed", we're talking about design decisions that are not considering competitive desires.
Competive desires have frequently differed from vanilla NS2 for years now, enough to create a mod as a standard for competitive play.
Because of this, I presume there is less concern over doing something that is not embraced by that portion of the community.
Fair enough, but goes back to the recent requests - what about the idea of a server toggle or client side toggle? Would you consider it? The comp community is voicing their opinion, why not make everyone happy? It's a cool change, but it would be even cooler if it didn't bug a decent portion of the community.
My hope is that the code for the original lighting behavior is simply deleted so that it no longer needs to be maintained. Otherwise any future changes would have to update both which is a waste of time. Further improvements can just touch this one.
Relying on modders to fix things for a significant portion of the community is a terrible approach to game design.
That's not what is being said here??
We're not talking about things that need to be "fixed", we're talking about design decisions that are not considering competitive desires.
Competive desires have frequently differed from vanilla NS2 for years now, enough to create a mod as a standard for competitive play.
Because of this, I presume there is less concern over doing something that is not embraced by that portion of the community.
Fair enough, but goes back to the recent requests - what about the idea of a server toggle or client side toggle? Would you consider it? The comp community is voicing their opinion, why not make everyone happy? It's a cool change, but it would be even cooler if it didn't bug a decent portion of the community.
My hope is that the code for the original lighting behavior is simply deleted so that it no longer needs to be maintained. Otherwise any future changes would have to update both which is a waste of time. Further improvements can just touch this one.
How often is the lighting changed between builds? If this is a huge undertaking, let me know. It doesn't seem to be touched very often, but I don't know how different updates to the game might affect it. Does balance changes, or changes to the game usually affect the lighting that would cause this to be a huge waste of time?
WyzcrakPot Pie AficionadoJoin Date: 2002-12-04Member: 10447Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited March 2016
Without data showing that a "huge" percentage of the playerbase is unsatisfied with the lighting change, it's arguably a false premise that the development waste must be "huge" to be avoided. Put another way: in the context of the unsatisfied players being relatively few, it's advisable to remove the old lighting code even if maintaining the old lighting code is only a minor development burden moving forward.
This is why I ask if anyone knows even a /ballpark/ percentage of the playerbase which finds the lighting unacceptable.
^Well you could say the same thing about a ton of options. A lot of them are there for performance or other reasons to make the game better for people. Like the minimal infestation. It seems like you are bringing this attitude of...why would we change it if we don't have to? All I'm asking for is an option that might never have to be touched up. The lighting didn't seem to be touched for a long time. So I think it would be more productive if you didn't start with that defense of having to add the option, but give me a good reason why you wouldn't want to provide it?
There seems to be two points brought up by the no option people so far: 1) it would give people an advantage if they used the old lighting in a client side option, 2) it would make more work for the development team.
Response: 1) This is up for debate. I see the arguments for this though, which is why I asked for a server side option
Response: 2) This one might be people just saying stuff. Someone from UWE or CDT would have to explain that this would cause work or a burden on the development team as the lighting seems to have been the same for a very long time, and it would simply be back to the way it was with no issues.
Poll it. I'd vote against it personally. It's cool looking and all, but I absolutely have already died on at least 2 occasions due to losing tracking of a skulk during an otherwise easy engagement.
I've got gamma in game maxed since it was an option, as well as boosted gamma settingson my monitor as well as graphics card options.
If people want it, let them. If they don't, let them choose.
Using "balance" as an objection is a crock of shit.
A - Its voluntary.
B - Its a bit late worrying about settings that affect game balance, several already affect balance.
Comments
Yes. I can't really understand how someone can not like it. Dark room in alien territory are not pitch black. They are just dark. If you can't see anything, your monitor or eyes are not working properly. This is such a huge plus in atmosphere and makes SENSE, infestation spreads over lighting sources like lamps. It also very cool to use your flashlights in that case and makes it an even better experience, it is what you would expect as human when you enter alien territory. Please keep this and I hope it remains untouched in comp mod, but I doubt it. It is also nice to have something new that you have to adapt to.
Because it would create an unfair advantage for those that use that toggle, making it pretty much mandatory. Also creating options for everything possible in the game is a support nightmare, its just not maintanable. Imho NS2 already has way too many options, you just never know what combination of options will cause some obscure bug.
Everyone is acting like it's pitch black. It's really not.
I actually like this cause at least the defensive advantage for aliens is slightly better (so hopefully more sneak attacks from darker corners of a room and least "run as madlyfast as i can and hope he's not <20% accuracy lol) and this defensive advantage takes longer to become apparent at any rate, if one cyst is truly causing pitch blackened rooms that can always be addressed via algorithm. And as this game always some of its best tense fights (imo) as rooms lighting was going out, this makes that experience much more frequent than when just getting base rushed.
Actually, yes, I did die.
But for the love of baby jesus remove the particles.
Shit is distracting, looks tacky and achieves nothing.
Take off the bloody sunglasses than
Going back to my point, using minimal infestation is HUGE disadvantage for frame rate reasons as well as the infestation bubbles hide certain entities and/or skulks in rare cases. It is no different than this visual change.
Your rebuttal please?
You should remove all the options and just force all the high quality settings. This works well for console gamers it would probably solve all of NS2's problems. Framerate cap it too, don't forget to force resolution while you're at it.
How could the flashlight be improved in your opinion?
I think it's pretty clear that the competitive scene was not the target for this change, nor was it that much of a concern probably, given the reliable usage of comp mod.
Like you and @Luchs inferred: those that are competitive are going to do their own thing anyways. *shrug*
As far as I know, both @xDragon and @Mendasp are done updating their mods to fix things. Relying on modders to fix things for a significant portion of the community is a terrible approach to game design.
If you want to play the "creates additional work" card then so be it... but if you are telling me there shouldn't be an option because it creates a competitive advantage, you're more oblivious of the current options menu than I thought. Atmospherics, rich infestation, bloom... just to name a few radically affect FPS and game aspects giving anyone with them turned off a huge advantage.
This is exactly what I was going to write regarding what Iron said.
We're not talking about things that need to be "fixed", we're talking about design decisions that are not considering competitive desires.
Competive desires have frequently differed from vanilla NS2 for years now, enough to create a mod as a standard for competitive play.
Because of this, I presume there is less concern over doing something that is not embraced by that portion of the community.
Fair enough, but goes back to the recent requests - what about the idea of a server toggle or client side toggle? Would you consider it? The comp community is voicing their opinion, why not make everyone happy? It's a cool change, but it would be even cooler if it didn't bug a decent portion of the community.
Yes, you'll receive your electric bill next month.
My hope is that the code for the original lighting behavior is simply deleted so that it no longer needs to be maintained. Otherwise any future changes would have to update both which is a waste of time. Further improvements can just touch this one.
Also maybe consider adding a nice brown tint so the game looks super realistic and totes gritty.
How often is the lighting changed between builds? If this is a huge undertaking, let me know. It doesn't seem to be touched very often, but I don't know how different updates to the game might affect it. Does balance changes, or changes to the game usually affect the lighting that would cause this to be a huge waste of time?
This is why I ask if anyone knows even a /ballpark/ percentage of the playerbase which finds the lighting unacceptable.
There seems to be two points brought up by the no option people so far: 1) it would give people an advantage if they used the old lighting in a client side option, 2) it would make more work for the development team.
Response: 1) This is up for debate. I see the arguments for this though, which is why I asked for a server side option
Response: 2) This one might be people just saying stuff. Someone from UWE or CDT would have to explain that this would cause work or a burden on the development team as the lighting seems to have been the same for a very long time, and it would simply be back to the way it was with no issues.
I've got gamma in game maxed since it was an option, as well as boosted gamma settingson my monitor as well as graphics card options.
Wonder how much harder it would be if I didn't.
If people want it, let them. If they don't, let them choose.
Using "balance" as an objection is a crock of shit.
A - Its voluntary.
B - Its a bit late worrying about settings that affect game balance, several already affect balance.