We're trying to focus more on powersurge being a delay tactic / soft deterrent (the energy sap is alone can be scary).
I still think the wind up time would make it a more fair deterrent, because as it is right now, any low hp or low energy lifeform is going to be afraid of biting structures.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited May 2016
I agree.. not having a way for a situationally aware person to counter it at all feels unfair.
Some invisible eye in the sky that has the ability to damage me without any warning not only feels horribly unfair but it violates some of the high level design pillars of NS2.
Remember that running / leaping away from the RT is still providing more time for a response, so it'd still be effective! Fire 3 overcharge waves over 5 seconds if you need to as a ~7 sec delay in biting the RT makes it 25+% longer to take down with one skulk and 50+% with two skulks. (edit: that would negatively impact PG)
Also you could even have the overcharge buildup warning time still zap your energy regeneration to make the escape more panic inducing. (Because you may not have energy for leap or blink)
Just played a round where I dropped a command station and it didn't automatically drop the power and the command station was bugged and didn't open. I know this was brought up before. Was this fixed? Seems to still be an issue and a game breaking issue.
Just an update on the Powersurge situation- we spent some time discussing it and decided giving it a wind-up time might not be the best route to go (if you make it avoidable the ability will feel bad for the marine comm and potentially become a noob-trap). Instead in the next patch we're decreasing the damage Powersurge from 50 to 25 (we'll still be keeping an eye on it).
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
Just an update on the Powersurge situation- we spent some time discussing it and decided giving it a wind-up time might not be the best route to go (if you make it avoidable the ability will feel bad for the marine comm and potentially become a noob-trap). Instead in the next patch we're decreasing the damage Powersurge from 50 to 25 (we'll still be keeping an eye on it).
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
This is not about rookies, it's about low to mid level players.
Just played a round where I dropped a command station and it didn't automatically drop the power and the command station was bugged and didn't open. I know this was brought up before. Was this fixed? Seems to still be an issue and a game breaking issue.
@Deck_ : We don't know how to reproduce this issue. Any ideas? Maybe make a thread in technical support about it for visibility.
Just an update on the Powersurge situation- we spent some time discussing it and decided giving it a wind-up time might not be the best route to go (if you make it avoidable the ability will feel bad for the marine comm and potentially become a noob-trap). Instead in the next patch we're decreasing the damage Powersurge from 50 to 25 (we'll still be keeping an eye on it).
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
This is not about rookies, it's about low to mid level players.
But with only 25 damage would it really be worth it over nano-shield (which is already rarely used) that has a similar effect to delay RT biting but is more versatile as it can be used to assist during engagements?
Just played a round where I dropped a command station and it didn't automatically drop the power and the command station was bugged and didn't open. I know this was brought up before. Was this fixed? Seems to still be an issue and a game breaking issue.
Just played a round where I dropped a command station and it didn't automatically drop the power and the command station was bugged and didn't open. I know this was brought up before. Was this fixed? Seems to still be an issue and a game breaking issue.
This is not in the reported bugs. I will report it as a bug officially. Thanks for the reminder.
Just played a round where I dropped a command station and it didn't automatically drop the power and the command station was bugged and didn't open. I know this was brought up before. Was this fixed? Seems to still be an issue and a game breaking issue.
This is not in the reported bugs. I will report it as a bug officially. Thanks for the reminder.
No problem. Thanks for reporting it. Perhaps I didn't read it, but can UWE tell us why they added the power surge updated feature? I can understand trying to change up the gameplay and give a commander something else to do, but why this? Was it to try to balance out pub rounds and give marines more wins? It just doesn't feel right to get through to an ip, rt, or phase gate as a skulk, and then get killed or severely weakened by an act of a higher power.
This is the kind of gameplay additions that I lobby pretty hard in conjunction with the removal of requiring cysts to build structures. I know you think the general idea has value. I'm very willing to have marine RTs buffed if aliens are compensated in an asymmetrical way. Granted not needing cysts is more like marines xD
If you were to leave power surge as is (-ish), it could buff aliens by not needing the cysting res UNLESS: they want to cyst somewhere specifically to use the newly upgraded and added commander infestation required abilities. (Upgrade cyst individually to reduce jump height: !!!!!!!!!WOAH STICK SHOES HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!)
Cysting could disable power surge ffs! That'd be interesting as hell. Buff for buff is a GREAT way to balance natural selection. 1 and 2.
Also a great time to let marines build without power (since power surge will actually be used like this anyway and the powering capability just doesnt work as well as hoped in practice when your on the field since everyone already died trying to save power and can't phase through the power surged gate anyway)
...
PS: Fades could use a 3rd hive ability that's realistic. And lerks should have spores hive 3 obviously. And just make webs hive 3 and free and easier to place. And make additional hives grant armor efficacy upgrades. And look to ns1 for all other things that weren't broken that were removed without better adherence to the 1/3 1/3 1/3 model UWE rightfully came up with (and strongly agruably misunderstood themselves).
I feel obligated to say it's disconcerting that the people developing the power surge change didn't intuitively understand the effect it would have on the res game. All changes are based around 2 primary things: (1) marine vs alien encounters (2) the res game. Those things shouldn't be so majorly affected by a change without maintaining their balance. If we don't assume those two things are balance itself, then we have no basepoint for intuition about anything.
Just an update on the Powersurge situation- we spent some time discussing it and decided giving it a wind-up time might not be the best route to go (if you make it avoidable the ability will feel bad for the marine comm and potentially become a noob-trap). Instead in the next patch we're decreasing the damage Powersurge from 50 to 25 (we'll still be keeping an eye on it).
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
This is not about rookies, it's about low to mid level players.
"noob-trap" is what I read in rantology's post.
Yes, and I still think it's more about low to mid level players. Rookies don't even command in the first place, and if they did, there's another fifty things they'll do wrong before this becomes an issue. It's a noob-trap for players that kinda know how to play, but not really.
Yeah, this is what I was struggling with when doing this feature. Using red is really the worst option for red-green colorblindness. I tried making them fuschia, since that would be a lot more readable, but I was afraid I might get lynched if I had actually put in bright pink bars.
The traditional solution, as seen in e.g. traffic lights, is to mix a lot of blue into the green (turqoise) rather than mixing blue into the red (pink).
Just an update on the Powersurge situation- we spent some time discussing it and decided giving it a wind-up time might not be the best route to go (if you make it avoidable the ability will feel bad for the marine comm and potentially become a noob-trap). Instead in the next patch we're decreasing the damage Powersurge from 50 to 25 (we'll still be keeping an eye on it).
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
This is not about rookies, it's about low to mid level players.
"noob-trap" is what I read in rantology's post.
Yes, and I still think it's more about low to mid level players. Rookies don't even command in the first place, and if they did, there's another fifty things they'll do wrong before this becomes an issue. It's a noob-trap for players that kinda know how to play, but not really.
I don't think it is about the commanders. And in the end it doesn't matter anyway because it is still no valid argument. Balancing a game around players who barely understand how the game works? Really?
Just an update on the Powersurge situation- we spent some time discussing it and decided giving it a wind-up time might not be the best route to go (if you make it avoidable the ability will feel bad for the marine comm and potentially become a noob-trap). Instead in the next patch we're decreasing the damage Powersurge from 50 to 25 (we'll still be keeping an eye on it).
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
This is not about rookies, it's about low to mid level players.
"noob-trap" is what I read in rantology's post.
Yes, and I still think it's more about low to mid level players. Rookies don't even command in the first place, and if they did, there's another fifty things they'll do wrong before this becomes an issue. It's a noob-trap for players that kinda know how to play, but not really.
I don't think it is about the commanders. And in the end it doesn't matter anyway because it is still no valid argument. Balancing a game around players who barely understand how the game works? Really?
It is about commanders. After all, they are the ones that sink res into it. And yes, it's called "learning curve".
Ask yourself: If a delay is introduced to powersurge, is it OK that a 15+5tres investment can be hard-countered by moving away for a second?
I'm glad a delay was not introduced because it would become the noob trap of being powerful against people that dont know the AV cue, and almost useless against those who do.
Still got my fingers crossed for a DOT effect or @RevanCorana 's suggestion
Just an update on the Powersurge situation- we spent some time discussing it and decided giving it a wind-up time might not be the best route to go (if you make it avoidable the ability will feel bad for the marine comm and potentially become a noob-trap). Instead in the next patch we're decreasing the damage Powersurge from 50 to 25 (we'll still be keeping an eye on it).
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
This is not about rookies, it's about low to mid level players.
"noob-trap" is what I read in rantology's post.
Yes, and I still think it's more about low to mid level players. Rookies don't even command in the first place, and if they did, there's another fifty things they'll do wrong before this becomes an issue. It's a noob-trap for players that kinda know how to play, but not really.
I don't think it is about the commanders. And in the end it doesn't matter anyway because it is still no valid argument. Balancing a game around players who barely understand how the game works? Really?
It is about commanders. After all, they are the ones that sink res into it. And yes, it's called "learning curve".
Of course the comms sink the res into it, but teh aliens get affected by it. Balancing a game around low level players is "learning curve"? What?
Ask yourself: If a delay is introduced to powersurge, is it OK that a 15+5tres investment can be hard-countered by moving away for a second?
This was my thinking too and why, at least initially, I want to try and avoid putting a wind-up on it. There's also a bug currently that may be making powersurge spammable at no cost to the marine commander- so this has probably contributed to it's perception of being OP. Once this bug is fixed, and the damage reduction is in place (25 damage down from 50) I think it might feel better.
@Frozen We do have some alien love in the pipeline for next patch (gorges will be happy!) as well as some interesting res changes for both teams that I believe will benefit aliens more than it will marines (but increase the 'fun factor' a bit for everyone).
I'm very curious to see how things shake out in the next update- we're aware that recent additions favor marines (healthbars, power surge, grenade and exo changes) and we're hoping the next set of changes let the aliens feel the love in return. If you want to take a look at what's brewing feel free to check out the PT Trello for features that are being tested. (or hop in discord to discuss them with us!)
Why couldn't power surge work just like the NS1 version, albeit a temporary one? The building immediately becomes charged, but zaps for a low amount of damage (10?) every second aliens stand near it, lasting for 5-10 seconds. This way it would work as a delay for skulks eating an RT and not being able to withstand the entire duration of the charge, giving a marine more time to save it. It would still come down to skulk vs marine fight to determine the fate of the RT (as it should), but the marine commander can buy more time in situations where 5 seconds is a lifetime. And the skulk would still be at practically full hp, having only taken a maximum of one zap before disengaging. Furthermore, this way the marine commander would not be able to use this ability as a nuke during fights that happen around buildings.
Not that I like the feature to begin with. Electrified RTs were a cancer in NS1, depriving skulks of their only meaningful late-game action. Juking marines to get behind their front line and trying to outsmart the marine coming to defend the RTs is a great minigame all by itself, and makes skulks useful as something else than cannon fodder throughout the game, and an ability like this hinders this experience.
Not that I like the feature to begin with. Electrified RTs were a cancer in NS1, depriving skulks of their only meaningful late-game action. Juking marines to get behind their front line and trying to outsmart the marine coming to defend the RTs is a great minigame all by itself, and makes skulks useful as something else than cannon fodder throughout the game, and an ability like this hinders this experience.
Yeah but you have to remember electrification in NS1 cost 30 res, which is a huge investment given the slower res pulse, and was locked to that one structure. It served its purpose really well -- delaying early game takedowns, but being pretty much useless once higher level lifeforms ganged up on it. That was the risk for the comm -- 'Will I make this res back if I electrify this node?'. Not to mention where else that 30 res could have gone. I think Electricity in NS1 was perfect.
Now... to that end, @rantology I don't think 25 damage is deterrent enough. It won't be worth researching for the comm or taking the time out of his day to knock an overcharge (unless perhaps it's a PG -- but then now you're confining it). One possible solution (in addition to all the others you're reading here!) -- make it 60 damage, but divided among all attackers in range. So if it's 1 skulk - 60 dam. 2 skulks - 30 each. 3 skulks - 15 each etc. To say nothing if it's lerks and above attacking, which will absorb the damage even more.
Electricity and Devour are the two NS1 features I miss the most from NS2.
Edit, from my previous post:
In an alternate reality, I'd love to see how it plays to have each CC confer another level of Armor/Wep upgrades, and with each level being more potent. Eg: W1 15%, W2 30%, W3 45%. But with just one CC you're limited to W1/A1. Planting a second CC automatically gives you W2/A2, no research time required if an Arms is up (or it could require research, but cheaper). This would: a) provide for new strats, like trying to secure and hold a second tech point early in order to get a 30% W/A bonus, and b) help end stalemates quicker as 45% at 3 tech points is a heck of a boost.
And really, the game was supposed to be about fighting over nodes and techpoints, for both sides, not just aliens and this would give a real reason for marines to grab and hold onto more than one CC.
Does no one find this intriguing? Just me? Even as a starting point for something similar?
I keep hearing this suggestion and this is a bigger 'noob trap' than anything else, it's very likely that players would end up killing themselves without any knowledge as to why it happened.
The reason why I'm pushing for the wind-up on the overcharge so much is that putting a player in a position where they are encouraged to do something but can be punished with zero indication or pre-warning is just plain bad game design.
Imagine playing capture the flag, but the flag randomly kills the flag holder. It might be funny for a gimmick but there's no room for skill in that situation, just dumb luck that you don't die randomly when you're doing your job. Now how would you fix this? You give the player an indication that it's going to happen so they have to stop their progress and hold out before continuing again. This makes it less punishing for attackers doing their job while still delaying them so the defenders have a chance to stop them.
Here's my suggestion for it:
Give overcharge a 1 second charge up time to warn alien players to back away, cover the structure with electricity and make it loud, change the damage and energy drain to be over time instead of at once, and have the overcharge last for 5 seconds. 80 Damage over the course of 5 seconds/ 16 damage per second. Make it sound like a bug zapper or something to keep players away, and have an arc of electricity visibly zap the player as its happening.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
Electrify would require changing the cost so much it would have to make it a different ability entirely, as it would be too expensive to use on unpowered structures.
Electrify would require changing the cost so much it would have to make it a different ability entirely, as it would be too expensive to use on unpowered structures.
Power surge is what occurs on unpowered structures, presumably Electrify would only work on powered structures. That said, it might further concentrate the value of the power node. That isn't inherently bad, you'd see comms electrifying the power node rather than the res node, but then it makes it boring because the power node is (frequently) the obvious choice.
I could be wrong, but didn't electrified rt's in NS1 cause aliens to pretty much wait for bile bomb or onos to take them out? That changes things, makes a gorge importance go up and a skulks role could be diminished at some point. Which could help marines mid game which could be a problem for them currently in pubs. Not sure how it would work in NS2.
It would give bile bomb and gorges even more importance. The gorge will need to be on the move not just for sneaky base rushes.
Perhaps this would go well with a better emphasis on parasites and protecting the gorges for skulks. If there was a way to make players see the importance of getting the parasite.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
edited May 2016
It's still not going to feel good or right or just when I win with 1 hp remaining and die to the 25dmg power surge. It CANNOT be lethal, it can be damn near close if you want. But we HAVEEEE TOOO BITE RESSSSS
Well maybe the aliens ability to deal with this will be in the next patch, then my comments on intuition are less important, but some updates need to be bundled better!
Comments
I still think the wind up time would make it a more fair deterrent, because as it is right now, any low hp or low energy lifeform is going to be afraid of biting structures.
Some invisible eye in the sky that has the ability to damage me without any warning not only feels horribly unfair but it violates some of the high level design pillars of NS2.
Remember that running / leaping away from the RT is still providing more time for a response, so it'd still be effective!
Fire 3 overcharge waves over 5 seconds if you need to as a ~7 sec delay in biting the RT makes it 25+% longer to take down with one skulk and 50+% with two skulks. (edit: that would negatively impact PG)
Also you could even have the overcharge buildup warning time still zap your energy regeneration to make the escape more panic inducing. (Because you may not have energy for leap or blink)
Also since this change removed another reason to build the robo factory, would be nice to give us back MAC EMP in a researchable, toned down version.
Stop thinking that a rookie should know the whole game perfectly. When you are new to a game you ALWAYS have to learn many things. "Rookie trap" is really no valid argument.
And reducing the damage only doesn't solve the problem.
This is not about rookies, it's about low to mid level players.
@Deck_ : We don't know how to reproduce this issue. Any ideas? Maybe make a thread in technical support about it for visibility.
"noob-trap" is what I read in rantology's post.
Nope, still not fixed rofl
No problem. Thanks for reporting it. Perhaps I didn't read it, but can UWE tell us why they added the power surge updated feature? I can understand trying to change up the gameplay and give a commander something else to do, but why this? Was it to try to balance out pub rounds and give marines more wins? It just doesn't feel right to get through to an ip, rt, or phase gate as a skulk, and then get killed or severely weakened by an act of a higher power.
@rantology
This is the kind of gameplay additions that I lobby pretty hard in conjunction with the removal of requiring cysts to build structures. I know you think the general idea has value. I'm very willing to have marine RTs buffed if aliens are compensated in an asymmetrical way. Granted not needing cysts is more like marines xD
If you were to leave power surge as is (-ish), it could buff aliens by not needing the cysting res UNLESS: they want to cyst somewhere specifically to use the newly upgraded and added commander infestation required abilities. (Upgrade cyst individually to reduce jump height: !!!!!!!!!WOAH STICK SHOES HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!)
Cysting could disable power surge ffs! That'd be interesting as hell. Buff for buff is a GREAT way to balance natural selection. 1 and 2.
Also a great time to let marines build without power (since power surge will actually be used like this anyway and the powering capability just doesnt work as well as hoped in practice when your on the field since everyone already died trying to save power and can't phase through the power surged gate anyway)
...
PS: Fades could use a 3rd hive ability that's realistic. And lerks should have spores hive 3 obviously. And just make webs hive 3 and free and easier to place. And make additional hives grant armor efficacy upgrades. And look to ns1 for all other things that weren't broken that were removed without better adherence to the 1/3 1/3 1/3 model UWE rightfully came up with (and strongly agruably misunderstood themselves).
I feel obligated to say it's disconcerting that the people developing the power surge change didn't intuitively understand the effect it would have on the res game. All changes are based around 2 primary things: (1) marine vs alien encounters (2) the res game. Those things shouldn't be so majorly affected by a change without maintaining their balance. If we don't assume those two things are balance itself, then we have no basepoint for intuition about anything.
Yes, and I still think it's more about low to mid level players. Rookies don't even command in the first place, and if they did, there's another fifty things they'll do wrong before this becomes an issue. It's a noob-trap for players that kinda know how to play, but not really.
Meh, how about dual welder? Not the pussy kind of welder we have now, but the good old super-charged NS 1.04 welder that would melt hives.
The traditional solution, as seen in e.g. traffic lights, is to mix a lot of blue into the green (turqoise) rather than mixing blue into the red (pink).
I don't think it is about the commanders. And in the end it doesn't matter anyway because it is still no valid argument. Balancing a game around players who barely understand how the game works? Really?
It is about commanders. After all, they are the ones that sink res into it. And yes, it's called "learning curve".
I'm glad a delay was not introduced because it would become the noob trap of being powerful against people that dont know the AV cue, and almost useless against those who do.
Still got my fingers crossed for a DOT effect or @RevanCorana 's suggestion
Of course the comms sink the res into it, but teh aliens get affected by it. Balancing a game around low level players is "learning curve"? What?
This was my thinking too and why, at least initially, I want to try and avoid putting a wind-up on it. There's also a bug currently that may be making powersurge spammable at no cost to the marine commander- so this has probably contributed to it's perception of being OP. Once this bug is fixed, and the damage reduction is in place (25 damage down from 50) I think it might feel better.
@Frozen We do have some alien love in the pipeline for next patch (gorges will be happy!) as well as some interesting res changes for both teams that I believe will benefit aliens more than it will marines (but increase the 'fun factor' a bit for everyone).
I'm very curious to see how things shake out in the next update- we're aware that recent additions favor marines (healthbars, power surge, grenade and exo changes) and we're hoping the next set of changes let the aliens feel the love in return. If you want to take a look at what's brewing feel free to check out the PT Trello for features that are being tested. (or hop in discord to discuss them with us!)
Not that I like the feature to begin with. Electrified RTs were a cancer in NS1, depriving skulks of their only meaningful late-game action. Juking marines to get behind their front line and trying to outsmart the marine coming to defend the RTs is a great minigame all by itself, and makes skulks useful as something else than cannon fodder throughout the game, and an ability like this hinders this experience.
Now... to that end, @rantology I don't think 25 damage is deterrent enough. It won't be worth researching for the comm or taking the time out of his day to knock an overcharge (unless perhaps it's a PG -- but then now you're confining it). One possible solution (in addition to all the others you're reading here!) -- make it 60 damage, but divided among all attackers in range. So if it's 1 skulk - 60 dam. 2 skulks - 30 each. 3 skulks - 15 each etc. To say nothing if it's lerks and above attacking, which will absorb the damage even more.
Electricity and Devour are the two NS1 features I miss the most from NS2.
Edit, from my previous post: Does no one find this intriguing? Just me? Even as a starting point for something similar?
I keep hearing this suggestion and this is a bigger 'noob trap' than anything else, it's very likely that players would end up killing themselves without any knowledge as to why it happened.
The reason why I'm pushing for the wind-up on the overcharge so much is that putting a player in a position where they are encouraged to do something but can be punished with zero indication or pre-warning is just plain bad game design.
Imagine playing capture the flag, but the flag randomly kills the flag holder. It might be funny for a gimmick but there's no room for skill in that situation, just dumb luck that you don't die randomly when you're doing your job. Now how would you fix this? You give the player an indication that it's going to happen so they have to stop their progress and hold out before continuing again. This makes it less punishing for attackers doing their job while still delaying them so the defenders have a chance to stop them.
Here's my suggestion for it:
Give overcharge a 1 second charge up time to warn alien players to back away, cover the structure with electricity and make it loud, change the damage and energy drain to be over time instead of at once, and have the overcharge last for 5 seconds. 80 Damage over the course of 5 seconds/ 16 damage per second. Make it sound like a bug zapper or something to keep players away, and have an arc of electricity visibly zap the player as its happening.
Really depends on cost etc etc.
It would give bile bomb and gorges even more importance. The gorge will need to be on the move not just for sneaky base rushes.
Perhaps this would go well with a better emphasis on parasites and protecting the gorges for skulks. If there was a way to make players see the importance of getting the parasite.
Well maybe the aliens ability to deal with this will be in the next patch, then my comments on intuition are less important, but some updates need to be bundled better!