Lets talk longevity.
MistressAthena
USA Join Date: 2016-01-30 Member: 212328Members
USA Join Date: 2016-01-30 Member: 212328Members
Bearing in mind this is still early development, seeing what they have on the Trello board, and future idea's, how do you feel about the longevity of the game?
As it stands right now, a beginner who looks up "tips and tricks" will find themselves completing just about everything you can do in this game in about 8 hours or less. For myself an experienced player, even restarting fresh from every new update. A grand total of 4-5 hours and I've pretty much done everything yet again, even after several changes making things much slower to complete.
But I digress that's not the point, so before you go "well its early alpha what do you expect?", that's not my point. With what we have now, and what they have planned, do you feel its enough to keep even veteran players entertained for a significant amount of time at release? Let alone new players who educate themselves completely before jumping in.
I like to compare this to Kerbal Space Program. Both are technically sand box games. They play differently, vastly different atmosphere in terms of feeling, mechanics, gameplay, but both depend on the same thing to survive as a good game. That is, the ability for the player to expand exponentially however they're mind thinks up, with enough pieces at their disposal to make any layer of possibilities a reality.
For those who didn't understand that, basically.. In KSP despite the ingame "world" being the same exactly the same, every single time. There is enough "pieces" and "parts" to the game, which can be combined in so many different ways, that no matter how often you play, things won't always be exactly the same, or there is enough to always have a play through be different every time.
In Subnautica, I am slightly afraid that afte ryou play it once or twice, even on release there won't be enough "pieces" or differences to allow for great differences in gameplay and experience between each new game start.
While the "Survival" aspect of it, is not like KSP (KSP doesn't have one, unless you use mods), there becomes a point where you've become self sufficient. By that time in Subnautica, you've nearly seen it all, if not, have. (And that's including the new area not yet released, as I have time an dknow where it is and tend to explore the baren gutted area before I even get everything done). Do you feel what they have planned for "End Game" once you get self sufficient (which is extremely easy right now), and have built everything, and done everything, enough to keep the longevity of the game alive? or is every play through going to be too similar?
Of course we can't 100% know yet, and only assumptions and opinions based on what we know they have planned, (and I'm sure they have more planned we don't know about). But what do you guys think?
Personally I am a bit concerned about the playthroughs being too similar and too cut n dry. With specific places, pieces, and area's needing to be visited in order to obtain what you need. While exploring is fun, that only lasts for the first play through. Since the land isn't randomly generated, and even where things are, where materials spawn, and scannable items are all in their static same spots, exploration becomes dull after. (Except for those few times you find something you've somehow passed multiple times, but those are far and in between). I think a big question yet un answered is what is going to make each new playthrough fun and different? Atm there isn't anything, and I don't really see any planned features, or upcoming updates anywhere on the Trello board or "To do" list which will add anything to that. Which makes me nervous.
As it stands right now, a beginner who looks up "tips and tricks" will find themselves completing just about everything you can do in this game in about 8 hours or less. For myself an experienced player, even restarting fresh from every new update. A grand total of 4-5 hours and I've pretty much done everything yet again, even after several changes making things much slower to complete.
But I digress that's not the point, so before you go "well its early alpha what do you expect?", that's not my point. With what we have now, and what they have planned, do you feel its enough to keep even veteran players entertained for a significant amount of time at release? Let alone new players who educate themselves completely before jumping in.
I like to compare this to Kerbal Space Program. Both are technically sand box games. They play differently, vastly different atmosphere in terms of feeling, mechanics, gameplay, but both depend on the same thing to survive as a good game. That is, the ability for the player to expand exponentially however they're mind thinks up, with enough pieces at their disposal to make any layer of possibilities a reality.
For those who didn't understand that, basically.. In KSP despite the ingame "world" being the same exactly the same, every single time. There is enough "pieces" and "parts" to the game, which can be combined in so many different ways, that no matter how often you play, things won't always be exactly the same, or there is enough to always have a play through be different every time.
In Subnautica, I am slightly afraid that afte ryou play it once or twice, even on release there won't be enough "pieces" or differences to allow for great differences in gameplay and experience between each new game start.
While the "Survival" aspect of it, is not like KSP (KSP doesn't have one, unless you use mods), there becomes a point where you've become self sufficient. By that time in Subnautica, you've nearly seen it all, if not, have. (And that's including the new area not yet released, as I have time an dknow where it is and tend to explore the baren gutted area before I even get everything done). Do you feel what they have planned for "End Game" once you get self sufficient (which is extremely easy right now), and have built everything, and done everything, enough to keep the longevity of the game alive? or is every play through going to be too similar?
Of course we can't 100% know yet, and only assumptions and opinions based on what we know they have planned, (and I'm sure they have more planned we don't know about). But what do you guys think?
Personally I am a bit concerned about the playthroughs being too similar and too cut n dry. With specific places, pieces, and area's needing to be visited in order to obtain what you need. While exploring is fun, that only lasts for the first play through. Since the land isn't randomly generated, and even where things are, where materials spawn, and scannable items are all in their static same spots, exploration becomes dull after. (Except for those few times you find something you've somehow passed multiple times, but those are far and in between). I think a big question yet un answered is what is going to make each new playthrough fun and different? Atm there isn't anything, and I don't really see any planned features, or upcoming updates anywhere on the Trello board or "To do" list which will add anything to that. Which makes me nervous.
Comments
Because we already know almost all the content of the game before it even comes out. We know what to expect, and we pretty much know the routine; get these materials, build this at this time, get Seamoth at this time, so on and so forth.
We will have to wait and see if there will be an "end game" before we can determine the base longevity. But as long as the devs keep adding new stuff, this game will continue having that longevity.
For example A.I. can do crazy things like rabbitray's stealling your tools.
So any longevity in Subnautica will be based around building underwater cities with some buildings that are taller than the Aurora.
-The principal biome of the game, imo, will be the Lava zone which is far from complete
-We barely have any clue about the whole story arcs of the game yet, only bribes of infos from abandonned PDA's.
-Possibly several parts not yet revealed in the main Aurora wreckage
-The Transfuser not yet implemented. The possibilities of this tool, peoples!
-I personally am very thrilled about the whole Exosuit experience. I can't wait for that to come live.
So close to Official Release yet so far from the end result. Its a given that they'll need to drop parts of what they originally planned if they wish to release the game before the end of the year but i feel im not going to be dissapointed. All this considered, i cant realistically know the answer to Longevity/replayability at this point in time yet.
Thanks for the thoughtful response. Though what the others above you didn't understand, is I'm not talking about "knowing". Obviously if we knew how it was going to be, there wouldn't be much discussion to be had would there?
The discussion I'm trying to spark is what we know of right now. Basing the fact that the story is going to be a story, again a linear 1 time experience, everytime after that is just going to be yet another hurdle.
One person did bring up the minecraft thing, which may be a better comparison, but again, Minecraft is replayable and fun due to the unlimited possibilities. My thoughts are what is Subnautica going to have that will create that as a possibility? I don't think Subnautica can rely just on "build in a diff location = replayability" like other games can. There's going to need to be alot more than just that, other avenues and pathways a player can take in terms of playing, and experiencing the game, or even multiple ways to explore.
One thing you brought up in my other post is building above water. If you look at the splash screen of the Aurora crashing you can see a part of a larger continent obscured by clouds. (It blends into the shadows of the clouds from other area's so is easy to miss). Perhaps they need a rather larger land mass as well, with other suggestions.
Of course this is just a personal opinion, but it would be nice in the far future to see the transition from shallow water in your escape capsule, to exploring on land and building a boat first, scanning parts of the wreck on that land mass to learn how to build the seamoth and finally pieces of the underwater base, essentially moving your exploration from above the water and in shallow waters and transistioning that to underwater bases, and slowly getting deeper and deeper.
Hell even one of your first little contraptions you build is a short range jet powered glider, that lets you skim across the surface for a ways. Essentially letting you skip across the water from the land mass to a shallow underwater base you just unlocked pieces for in the shallow reef area, etc.
But I digress again, that's not hitting my focus of this post, which is longevity and replayability. Any thoughts?
I think that Subnautica 1.0 is more or less set in stone, which is a very good experience, but with less customizable parts to play with. At least the lunch version. Maybe they will add something cool later.
The important question we need to ask however is: Is it worth the money ?
Well, for me it is worth every penny. Unique experience, lots of content, polished, and fun to play. A little bit of thrill, here and there. Whats not to like.
I may went a little of track, sorry. But that is what I think.
The first thing they've done to increase longevity is have multiple endings. How would that work in Subnautica, what would you do exactly, join up with the people holding the Emperor hostage rather than saving it? Not explore at all and just wait for rescue? This multi-ending thing may not be easy to do in Subnautica, only the devs can say for sure (and probably not at this point).
The next thing is the races, and stunt jumps... Hmmm, not exactly subnautica's thing.
The next is hidden items. In GTA there are a series of hidden items (usually 100 of them) that when you've found them all give you some special item. This could be implemented in Subnautica and it could be any number of things (just check the "suggestions" forum to see what people are wishing for this week). On the other hand, nearly the entire Subnautica experience is looking for resources, so is asking the player to look for even more stuff any kind of bonus play-ability?
Another thing GTA does is allow you to do "jobs" for the other NPC's in the game and earn some money. Again not really a Subnautica thing. Without other people in the game, the only motivation you have to do anything is your own.
Am I missing any? Did I forget something GTA has that could be added to Subnautica?
Unfortunately Subnautica may not lend itself to more traditional ways of expanding play time. But, if someone has ideas I'd like to see them (and the devs might too).
P.S. As other folks have mentioned, Mods are probably the way to go. Wait for a legion of other players to expand the world beyond your wildest dreams. However, different people's Mods will have differing levels of quality, so not every Mod will necessarily be good. How would you even handle Quality Control on something like that? Or keep people from "over writing" each other's chunk of land? I don't even know.
Any serious longevity would have to be through DLC or Expansions. Maybe an expansion to build a spacecraft to the nearby asteroid field and another expansion to build an interstellar spacecraft to home or create a colony for potential settlers. In fact, it could be set up as a First Person version of games like Factorio or Starcraft.
with all the progression of scanner unlocks, to reaching the ship and fixing the radiation and becoming self-sufficient by visiting the island, THEN progressing into the deeper waters of the game, I'd say you'd be looking at well over 20ish hours even on freedom mode. As members of early access, we can cut that down because we've been able to explore as all these things have become added gradually over time so we know how to do things most efficiently.
But I looked over my playtime having picked the game up again after not playing for about 8 months and was surprised to see my hours round pass 50 in the last 2 weeks just from exploring and becoming a base building addict,
so for 20$ and early access, I'm actually pretty pleased with what I was able to take out of the game in its current size, I'll try a complete replay through on hardcore, building only bare essentials and see what that ends up like when the game releases 1.0, knowing before hand what to do and how to do really cuts out the immersion of panic from doing it all the first time and figuring out as much as you can on your own.
The other thing that makes it get less fun (which they are working on) is that any area that I spend any time rapidly becomes a dead zone. Even if I don't eat any of the fish, the local predators, whatever they may be, go through them at an insane rate. The ocean is just sad without any fish.
My thoughts on what can help fix this? A much bigger map, with much more variety. Having a ton of biomes stacked on top of each other is certainly unique, but having to spend an hour and a half going over a somewhat dull area to find the way into a cave is not much fun. I won't comment on how realistic this may be, but it would make the game far more long lived for me.
This is supposedly fixed according to Trello. In the Machine Update, which has just been released, has the following card.
"Don't delete a fish when a creature eats it, but instead save make it disappear and save out to disk. So if you leave the area and come back, the fish will come back to life.
You could even put a cooldown on the dead fish so that it only gets resurrected after a set period of time, so that depleting the local region of fish isn't immediately fixable by simply returning to the area."
Besides, you should only overfish at the start of the game. Capture a couple of Peepers and Airsacks and place them in a Large Aquarium or grow Hanging Trees would give more than enough Food and Water to survive. Although, the Hanging Tree option is the more ideal method since it only costs 2 Titanium for each Indoor Growbed and can be crafted on the Cyclops while the Large Aquarium requires 1 Titanium and 8 Quartz for the Aquarium and 2 Titanium and 2 Quartz for the Hatch. The only disadvantage to the Hanging Fruit option is requiring travel to Floater Island.
Obviously, I can only speak for myself, but I'm fairly sure I'm going to easily log several hundred hours in SN, just as I have logged 980 in Skyrim, and 746 in Fallout 4 so far. Heck, I've already spent 109 hours in Subnautica, even in its EA state. I build bases, expand them, fine tune the layouts, experiment building them into the ground for extra decorative results... then tear it all down and start all over. I spend hours looking for the perfect locations, with the best views or the best living conditions. I carefully plan trips, gather food and water then go sightseeing, I poke reapers and try to outrun them and die spectacularly, I collect plants for my underwater farms, I collect fish for my aquariums, I hatch eggs and swim with adorable tiny reefbacks. I'm extremely annoyed that beds still haven't been implemented, because I have at least three bedrooms waiting for them, each meticulously positioned so that one is being lit up by the morning sunlight, another by the nearby fiery exploding geyser of lava, and the last one by the pink glowing mushrooms at the bottom of the ocean. I still haven't even been to the famous lava zones, I still have plenty to see, discover, and enjoy.... and the game isn't even complete yet.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that we can't and probably shouldn't try to determine a game's longevity or replayability and use that very subjective assessment like a label. There will be players like my humble self who will happily play Subnautica for months and never get bored, never run out of fun things to do, and then there will be players who will complete what is there to complete and seek their entertainments in a new game after a week or so. And that's fine, because no game can possibly satisfy everyone.
I have a feeling that, for a new player, the game will offer something like 15 hours of gameplay total (just a feeling, of course, can't know yet).
But it's important to note that it's not necessarily a bad thing. Indeed, a game like Last of Us for instance only gives about 15 hours of gameplay and yet is one of the best games I ever played.
I think Subnautica offers a unique experience with a great atmosphere. I think it was probably meant to be played in hardcore mode with an Oculus rift to offer the best experience possible.
That being said, I do believe it should be made a bit harder (which would increase its longevity). You never really strive for survival, not even at the beginning of the game. And as soon as you get a base with plants, or an aquarium, the food/water aspect disappears and the only remaining danger comes from predators, which also almost disappears once you have the Seamoth and the Cyclops. Only the Reaver feels like a threat throughout the game.
As it is, it's more an exploration game than a survival game. That's why survival should be more difficult. Fish should be harder to catch until you make traps / upgrades. It should be necessary to go cave diving to get certain ressources and said caves should be so complex that you will probably get lost without a functioning dive reel. Fruits should not be so easy to come by and give so much food/water. It should be necessary to build deeper and deeper base, which is not the case right now (you can have one base in shallow waters and just use the cyclops).
Who shot the Aurora down? Why?
Who sends the message from pod 17?
What IS on the black box recorder?
How do we get home? Do we WANT to get home?
It doesn't have to turn into a run-of-the-mill narrative led game, because we already have the base of an open and explorable world.
My only concern at this point is that the devs want this completed and available for release by the end of the summer. Unless they are keeping a LOT held back (I'm sure they are), this doesn't feel anything like it'll be ready for a full release in, say, August or September.
Personally, I just hope that there is a story mode that blows us all away to go with what is already and amazing exploration game. And there'll always be mods!