Can the PDT comment on the chances that this gets tweaked at least? I think what makes NS2 stand out from other games is that it isn't a casual shooter. You don't want this to be a casual shooter or it loses it's appeal to a lot of people that play the game. I think having tracking assist bars are going too far in that direction. Why not change it so it doesn't assist in tracking? Tracking well is an important part of the game and shouldn't be simplified. I don't think the field players should know the health of the aliens. If you must put that in the game, at least make it not assist in tracking in any way.
Can the PDT comment on the chances that this gets tweaked at least? I think what makes NS2 stand out from other games is that it isn't a casual shooter. You don't want this to be a casual shooter or it loses it's appeal to a lot of people that play the game. I think having tracking assist bars are going too far in that direction. Why not change it so it doesn't assist in tracking? Tracking well is an important part of the game and shouldn't be simplified. I don't think the field players should know the health of the aliens. If you must put that in the game, at least make it not assist in tracking in any way.
The ways that health bars have impacted the game has been positive and we aren't going to be removing them. The fact is that NS2 is a ridiculously inaccessible game, and that some of the simple things like tracking players, understanding how much damage you do, how your abilities actually work, and how much health enemies are important for new players (and even old players) to understand and learn the finer points of the game.
Showing enemy health definitely does not suddenly turn NS2 into a casual shooter. If you think it does, you are making some gross oversimplifications to everything else in the NS2 meta.
I do understand the complaints you all have, have read them all, and understand how this feature does change the game. I have been, and will continue to tweak the game to account for the experiences you are feeling are now missing. As an example, the redesign of the Onos bone shield came directly out of the discussions you all had about not being able to bait anymore due to players being able to see your health. It is a way to reintroduce some baiting without having the bait rely on imperfect / partially-hidden information.
Can the PDT comment on the chances that this gets tweaked at least? I think what makes NS2 stand out from other games is that it isn't a casual shooter. You don't want this to be a casual shooter or it loses it's appeal to a lot of people that play the game. I think having tracking assist bars are going too far in that direction. Why not change it so it doesn't assist in tracking? Tracking well is an important part of the game and shouldn't be simplified. I don't think the field players should know the health of the aliens. If you must put that in the game, at least make it not assist in tracking in any way.
The ways that health bars have impacted the game has been positive and we aren't going to be removing them. The fact is that NS2 is a ridiculously inaccessible game, and that some of the simple things like tracking players, understanding how much damage you do, how your abilities actually work, and how much health enemies are important for new players (and even old players) to understand and learn the finer points of the game.
Showing enemy health definitely does not suddenly turn NS2 into a casual shooter. If you think it does, you are making some gross oversimplifications to everything else in the NS2 meta.
I do understand the complaints you all have, have read them all, and understand how this feature does change the game. I have been, and will continue to tweak the game to account for the experiences you are feeling are now missing. As an example, the redesign of the Onos bone shield came directly out of the discussions you all had about not being able to bait anymore due to players being able to see your health. It is a way to reintroduce some baiting without having the bait rely on imperfect / partially-hidden information.
OK, so you really like the health bars. Yes, I understand your point that I'm making a gross oversimplification if I call NS2 a casual shooter. The point is, it's a step in that direction. The problem is, it's a big step in that direction and I'm guessing that is why there is all this opposition to it. If I thought it was minor, I wouldn't make this point. Now, you do say you will continue to tweak the game to account for the experience. What I would like is if you tried tweaking the health bars. Can you try tweaking it so it doesn't assist in tracking? Perhaps move them around, not make them a bar, try something different? Since you won't retract them completely, why not try something in-between that gets after some of the things you like about it, but doesn't move so drastically in this direction that we are opposing?
(and even old players) to understand and learn the finer points of the game.
As an old player, I humbly disagree, it teaches me nothing.
On top of that, I find myself tracking the bar and not the enemy.. which means if you were to remove it tomorrow I'd be at a deficit, having to learn how to track an actual object in the world again.
So it's much more of a handicap than it is a "skill improver."
The only inaccessible part of NS2 shooting compared to other FPS games is that the aliens move so fast in all directions thanks to air control, wall walking, and leaping. If you want to make NS2 more accessible please make targeting even easier. The health bar should be easier to see and directly centered on the enemy. It could even be visible at all times. Please tweak it.
If you want to make NS2 more accessible please make targeting even easier... The health bar should be easier to see and directly centered on the enemy. It could even be visible at all times. Please tweak it.
As an example, the redesign of the Onos bone shield came directly out of the discussions you all had about not being able to bait anymore due to players being able to see your health. It is a way to reintroduce some baiting without having the bait rely on imperfect / partially-hidden information.
@remi, yep Cold Embrace from Dota. Even the duration matches. You need to increase cooldown to 15 to be perfect.
As an example, the redesign of the Onos bone shield came directly out of the discussions you all had about not being able to bait anymore due to players being able to see your health. It is a way to reintroduce some baiting without having the bait rely on imperfect / partially-hidden information.
@remi, yep Cold Embrace from Dota. Even the duration matches. You need to increase cooldown to 15 to be perfect.
You see, now you're needing stuff from there.
Yeah that does seem pretty similar. It looks like Cold Embrace can be cast on teammates though, not on yourself; and Bone Shield only heals armor, not health. Also Bone Shield only block 66% of damage, not 100%... (although I think that needs to be dropped further)
Yeah that does seem pretty similar. It looks like Cold Embrace can be cast on teammates though, not on yourself; and Bone Shield only heals armor, not health. Also Bone Shield only block 66% of damage, not 100%... (although I think that needs to be dropped further)
Targeted abilities are fun. No armor amount in dota, so have to restore health. Dota has magic damage that isn't blocked with that spell, so it's about even .
Yeah that does seem pretty similar. It looks like Cold Embrace can be cast on teammates though, not on yourself; and Bone Shield only heals armor, not health. Also Bone Shield only block 66% of damage, not 100%... (although I think that needs to be dropped further)
Targeted abilities are fun. No armor amount in dota, so have to restore health. Dota has magic damage that isn't blocked with that spell, so it's about even .
There's another thing I was thinking of -- making it so gorge's could explode babblers that are attached to another player to give a quick burst heal. It would take some planning and timing, but could add in some more of those types of synergistic plays.
The reality is, HP bars don't help rookies in any way. There already is damage feedback, in numbers, sound and on the crosshairs. They already know if they're doing damage and how much. HP bars won't really give them any help (even in tracking). Rookies will still die because they haven't yet adapted their aim, don't know the maps yet, haven't learned proper positioning, and don't know how to engage as an alien (let alone know how to move efficiently due to certain hidden mechanics never being explained properly).
The ones it helps the most though, are the more skilled players. -Anecdote alert- When I played pub games to try out the HP bars, I killed a bunch more lifeforms I otherwise wouldn't have only because of the HP bars. Because I now always know if a fade/lerk/onos is already low, I always know if it's worth to focus fire on, regardless of proper communication. And if your aim is pretty good, you can be more devastating than ever. Isn't that exactly the thing you're trying to avoid?
Funnily enough, it also lowers the skill ceiling for the high skilled players, since communication and keeping track of your enemies HP is less of a neccessity. So all in all it lowers the skill ceiling for comp play while increasing the gap between low and high skilled players in pub play. To boot, it also breaks immersion and just plain looks bad in a game like this.
If you want to ignore a fairly significant portion of this really small community, and press on to think what is best in your opinion, we can't stop you obviously, but in my opinion, this is one of the worst possible features to be added to the game since release, and far more likely to cause damage to the playerbase (which it already has) than to help it grow again.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
edited May 2016
Just to weigh in on the reasoning for my vote: I've been playing a lot of Overwatch lately, and as anyone who's seen or played Overwatch knows it has enemy health bars but no damage numbers. I quite liked it, although I'd like to see them add damage numbers eventually to make things like damage falloff values and damage coefficients from certain hero effects easier to understand.
That said, this game isn't Overwatch, and I understand the feedback people have given about why health bars do have a significant impact on being able to bait/fake or make the information dynamic in general different. If enemy health bars were removed tomorrow I would have no objection even though I personally don't mind them and in fact actually kind of like them.
The one thing I would like to see changed is for it to be easier for commanders to see the health of enemies they have vision of. It does seem odd that marines on the ground currently have an easier time spotting and communicating how "lit" someone is than the person who's supposed to be in charge and have all the info. Clicking on enemies to see their current health has always felt unnecessarily awkward by any modern RTS standards.
I don't think NS2 can be compared to games like dirty bomb, overwatch, DOTA2...etc.
NS2 spawns a skulk and you have to save up P.res via time to spend on a higher lifeform. If you die, you have to wait for quite awhile depending on the amount of resource.
Correct me if I am wrong, Dying early on a lifeform like a lerk can change the game very dramatically. Don't forget you now have players with high ping playing on your server because of our low population so dying/taking dmg around corners are suppose to be expected.
in other games, you stay as the same class/hero you are. So dying is just dying unless you die and lose a keypoint or feed opponent....etc.
That's why you can't compare NS2 with other games with health bars.
"On top of that, I find myself tracking the bar and not the enemy.. " Same, was *mighty* confusing, but the disable function in the menu perfectly fixes this issue.
Also, I kind of like the masochistic feeling of never knowing if my rounds might actually kill a fade or if the fade is just passing by to somewhere more strategically important.
I think health bars should stay, with the following caveats:
1) They are placed not directly above the enemy, but approximately 10ft behind (and 5ft above).
2) They do not accurately follow the enemy's movement, but instead dance about in random circles.
Possible 3) Have the health bars display a random amount of HP.
Voila. Instant health information, but useless for tracking.
Anything that isn't part of the marine's helmet-hud should not exist because it breaks immersion and causes clutter. Even damage numbers and hit sounds is pushing it a bit (though I personally wouldn't remove the latter).
There are many other arguments about why health bars are bad, but I just felt like this one should be brought up.
No such thing... The very nature of matchmaking (removing your control over what game you join) is the very core of why it's so horribly broken...
I'm guessing from that response it's another matchmaking title not worth wasting any time on. Too bad.
I'm pretty sure you're in the minority here. Community servers are all fine and dandy when all you want to do is screw around (or if the game is too small to have anything else), but matchmaking is where it's at if you actually want play a game the way it's meant to be played without having to form a team and competing in organised tournaments.
No such thing... The very nature of matchmaking (removing your control over what game you join) is the very core of why it's so horribly broken...
I'm guessing from that response it's another matchmaking title not worth wasting any time on. Too bad.
Matchmaking (with a progression/ranking system) is one of the main reasons games like CS:GO, LoL, and Dota are as big as they currently are...
People can simply join a game via matchmaking without having to know which community server isn't complete cancer. It's much more efficient... and most 'good' matchmaking systems have group queuing so you can still play with your friends.
Matchmaking (with a progression/ranking system) is one of the main reasons games like CS:GO, LoL, and Dota are as big as they currently are...
It's also the main reason for thier efed up and toxic communitys that make the entire game unappealing to ppl like me... Dedicated for life!!! ... ppl play the game reguardless of if you give em a "play now" button or a server browser, if the gameplay is good... you should concern yourself with issues that are WAY more important.
The health bar can be tweaked to be more asthetically pleasing and yet more helpfull with aiming. It should be replaced by a small light colored circle that appears on the center of the enemy. When the enemy takes damage a small pie slice is removed from the circle like in a pie graph. The center of the circle also makes a perfect target for players to shoot at.
In my experiences finding a game that isn't "cancerous" with a matchmaking system is a billion times harder than with a browser.
You have to click play now, pray you get into a good server, back out when it's a crap server, then click play now again, and repeat that process like 20 times minimum.. Then you might be placed in a decent game..
I know I'm the minority as most gamers these days don't care if it's 900 ping and full of toxic hackers.. If they clicked play now and got put into a game they're happy..
I just wondered.. So that's enough derailing, back on topic..
I'd be happy if they just tweaked the bars to remove the tracking assist at this point.
No such thing... The very nature of matchmaking (removing your control over what game you join) is the very core of why it's so horribly broken...
I'm guessing from that response it's another matchmaking title not worth wasting any time on. Too bad.
I'm pretty sure you're in the minority here. Community servers are all fine and dandy when all you want to do is screw around (or if the game is too small to have anything else), but matchmaking is where it's at if you actually want play a game the way it's meant to be played without having to form a team and competing in organised tournaments.
Comments
The ways that health bars have impacted the game has been positive and we aren't going to be removing them. The fact is that NS2 is a ridiculously inaccessible game, and that some of the simple things like tracking players, understanding how much damage you do, how your abilities actually work, and how much health enemies are important for new players (and even old players) to understand and learn the finer points of the game.
Showing enemy health definitely does not suddenly turn NS2 into a casual shooter. If you think it does, you are making some gross oversimplifications to everything else in the NS2 meta.
I do understand the complaints you all have, have read them all, and understand how this feature does change the game. I have been, and will continue to tweak the game to account for the experiences you are feeling are now missing. As an example, the redesign of the Onos bone shield came directly out of the discussions you all had about not being able to bait anymore due to players being able to see your health. It is a way to reintroduce some baiting without having the bait rely on imperfect / partially-hidden information.
OK, so you really like the health bars. Yes, I understand your point that I'm making a gross oversimplification if I call NS2 a casual shooter. The point is, it's a step in that direction. The problem is, it's a big step in that direction and I'm guessing that is why there is all this opposition to it. If I thought it was minor, I wouldn't make this point. Now, you do say you will continue to tweak the game to account for the experience. What I would like is if you tried tweaking the health bars. Can you try tweaking it so it doesn't assist in tracking? Perhaps move them around, not make them a bar, try something different? Since you won't retract them completely, why not try something in-between that gets after some of the things you like about it, but doesn't move so drastically in this direction that we are opposing?
On top of that, I find myself tracking the bar and not the enemy.. which means if you were to remove it tomorrow I'd be at a deficit, having to learn how to track an actual object in the world again.
So it's much more of a handicap than it is a "skill improver."
For the love of God please no.
@remi, yep Cold Embrace from Dota. Even the duration matches. You need to increase cooldown to 15 to be perfect.
You see, now you're needing stuff from there.
Yeah that does seem pretty similar. It looks like Cold Embrace can be cast on teammates though, not on yourself; and Bone Shield only heals armor, not health. Also Bone Shield only block 66% of damage, not 100%... (although I think that needs to be dropped further)
Targeted abilities are fun. No armor amount in dota, so have to restore health. Dota has magic damage that isn't blocked with that spell, so it's about even
There's another thing I was thinking of -- making it so gorge's could explode babblers that are attached to another player to give a quick burst heal. It would take some planning and timing, but could add in some more of those types of synergistic plays.
The reality is, HP bars don't help rookies in any way. There already is damage feedback, in numbers, sound and on the crosshairs. They already know if they're doing damage and how much. HP bars won't really give them any help (even in tracking). Rookies will still die because they haven't yet adapted their aim, don't know the maps yet, haven't learned proper positioning, and don't know how to engage as an alien (let alone know how to move efficiently due to certain hidden mechanics never being explained properly).
The ones it helps the most though, are the more skilled players. -Anecdote alert- When I played pub games to try out the HP bars, I killed a bunch more lifeforms I otherwise wouldn't have only because of the HP bars. Because I now always know if a fade/lerk/onos is already low, I always know if it's worth to focus fire on, regardless of proper communication. And if your aim is pretty good, you can be more devastating than ever. Isn't that exactly the thing you're trying to avoid?
Funnily enough, it also lowers the skill ceiling for the high skilled players, since communication and keeping track of your enemies HP is less of a neccessity. So all in all it lowers the skill ceiling for comp play while increasing the gap between low and high skilled players in pub play. To boot, it also breaks immersion and just plain looks bad in a game like this.
If you want to ignore a fairly significant portion of this really small community, and press on to think what is best in your opinion, we can't stop you obviously, but in my opinion, this is one of the worst possible features to be added to the game since release, and far more likely to cause damage to the playerbase (which it already has) than to help it grow again.
That said, this game isn't Overwatch, and I understand the feedback people have given about why health bars do have a significant impact on being able to bait/fake or make the information dynamic in general different. If enemy health bars were removed tomorrow I would have no objection even though I personally don't mind them and in fact actually kind of like them.
The one thing I would like to see changed is for it to be easier for commanders to see the health of enemies they have vision of. It does seem odd that marines on the ground currently have an easier time spotting and communicating how "lit" someone is than the person who's supposed to be in charge and have all the info. Clicking on enemies to see their current health has always felt unnecessarily awkward by any modern RTS standards.
NS2 spawns a skulk and you have to save up P.res via time to spend on a higher lifeform. If you die, you have to wait for quite awhile depending on the amount of resource.
Correct me if I am wrong, Dying early on a lifeform like a lerk can change the game very dramatically. Don't forget you now have players with high ping playing on your server because of our low population so dying/taking dmg around corners are suppose to be expected.
in other games, you stay as the same class/hero you are. So dying is just dying unless you die and lose a keypoint or feed opponent....etc.
That's why you can't compare NS2 with other games with health bars.
Also, I kind of like the masochistic feeling of never knowing if my rounds might actually kill a fade or if the fade is just passing by to somewhere more strategically important.
Does it have community run servers with a browser? or does it use a horrific matchmaking system?
No such thing... The very nature of matchmaking (removing your control over what game you join) is the very core of why it's so horribly broken...
I'm guessing from that response it's another matchmaking title not worth wasting any time on. Too bad.
1) They are placed not directly above the enemy, but approximately 10ft behind (and 5ft above).
2) They do not accurately follow the enemy's movement, but instead dance about in random circles.
Possible 3) Have the health bars display a random amount of HP.
Voila. Instant health information, but useless for tracking.
Can I join the PDT now?
There are many other arguments about why health bars are bad, but I just felt like this one should be brought up.
I'm pretty sure you're in the minority here. Community servers are all fine and dandy when all you want to do is screw around (or if the game is too small to have anything else), but matchmaking is where it's at if you actually want play a game the way it's meant to be played without having to form a team and competing in organised tournaments.
Matchmaking (with a progression/ranking system) is one of the main reasons games like CS:GO, LoL, and Dota are as big as they currently are...
People can simply join a game via matchmaking without having to know which community server isn't complete cancer. It's much more efficient... and most 'good' matchmaking systems have group queuing so you can still play with your friends.
It's also the main reason for thier efed up and toxic communitys that make the entire game unappealing to ppl like me... Dedicated for life!!! ... ppl play the game reguardless of if you give em a "play now" button or a server browser, if the gameplay is good... you should concern yourself with issues that are WAY more important.
In my experiences finding a game that isn't "cancerous" with a matchmaking system is a billion times harder than with a browser.
You have to click play now, pray you get into a good server, back out when it's a crap server, then click play now again, and repeat that process like 20 times minimum.. Then you might be placed in a decent game..
I know I'm the minority as most gamers these days don't care if it's 900 ping and full of toxic hackers.. If they clicked play now and got put into a game they're happy..
I just wondered.. So that's enough derailing, back on topic..
I'd be happy if they just tweaked the bars to remove the tracking assist at this point.
For most people I know matchmaking is cancer.