Art Director
papragu
Home Join Date: 2015-03-23 Member: 202455Members
Home Join Date: 2015-03-23 Member: 202455Members
What was the art director thinking picking this Cyclops:
over this one:
or this one:
Would love to see the other two in the game.
over this one:
or this one:
Would love to see the other two in the game.
Comments
The Rascal (synonym for Shark, I call it that
What he/she/it said.^
--The shark like design is much much bigger. Originally we were going to have more subs - 2 small subs, 2 medium sized subs, and 1 or 2 large subs. The Shark one was a contender for the bigger sub. But, in game development, things seem simpler at first then they end up being in execution and the Cyclops ended up taking so much time to make, we just didn't have time to make more subs. At this point we just can;t justify the cost of additional subs, when they don't really add a lot of new gameplay, and we aren't even sure there is even a place in the game for a really large sub, since the current one is hard enough to navigate around in the world as it is.
--We wanted to make it clear the player and all their tech and vehicles are civilian, not military. The shark design, while certainly really cool, also looks very aggressive and better suited to a combat vehicle. So, we decided it wasn't the best sub to use for the default sub.
--We liked the Cyclops design a lot. It works well to convey "submarine" but still has an interesting silhouette that pushes into it the futuristic sci fi territory. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but it is our game, so our opinions win
And as for the Draconis, that design was probably going to be the alternative medium size that a player would have been able to build. But hey, maybe if we start pulling in Star Citizen amounts of money, we can do lots more subs
Plus i really like the cyclops look and that its belly opens up to swallow the seamoth
Also, I still hope that maybe, just maybe, in the further future after release there could be one extra sub - not big one, rather middle sized. I don't know how real my hope is, but I will stick to it
Yes i did meant Cyclops, dunno why i was writing Aurora, fixed it.
Well size is kinda relative, you guys could have model it smaller but keep the design. I wouldn't call the shark design aggressive, i would call it efficient and due to it's shape maybe even easier to navigate. The Draconis on the other hand really looks military style. Well there really isn't any need for more or bigger subs, but man just look how sexy the shark design is.
in other words: someone should start a kick starter/fund raiser.
Thank goodness you're not charging Star Citizen amounts of money for each sub! Yikes.
You got it. Particularly with in-game art, the main investment is developers' time, which costs money. It's not as simple as just doing modelling either. First you've got the high-poly and low-poly models (with something the size of these submarines you are looking at several separate large pieces), then all the texture art. Once that's done you need a technical artist to get it to appear in-game. Animators need to rig and animate it, then a game programmer needs to hook it all up and get it working as intended, which is more work than you might imagine. Finally an important object like this is likely to need new FX or shaders, which is more time still.
I couldn't venture a guess at the cost-per-submarine, but it's certainly not trivial.
Professional grade modelling and programming is expensive, especially when the work is split work up among multiple people to reduce general production times.
Say they were to make one of those new submarines - first of all you'd need someone to make the model. This process might be broken down into several parts among several modellers to speed up the production process - someone might model some of the furniture and machinery that is inside the submarine while someone else maybe designs the hull itself, and those tasks might be even split up further (say one person making external hull model, someone else, internal). From what I have seen, high quality 3d Models can easily take several months to be produced. Now, on top of that you need texture artists to actually texture, as well as set up UV maps and lighting/surfaces effects , of the objects as well, and this can also be time consuming. That's just on the art side to have a pretty submarine - but it won't do anything besides look pretty with just this task. Next up you'll need programmers!
Now if objects require some function, you need a programmer to program the new functions, and depending on the workload of the objects in question, that work may also be split up among several programmers. In this case of a Submarine, what would be needed? Probably some similar mechanics as already are on the Cyclops in the form of a docking station for Exosuit/Seamoth, hull crushing and flooding, open-able doors/bulkheads, entrances into/out of the submarine, Power consumption/generation(?), light controls, movement, physics, upgrades, capability to place objects inside the submarine, etc. etc. Now virtually all of these are from existing code, and could - probably - even be built upon said code, but even basing new code off of existing work can be a plethora of unforeseen issues within itself - what seems easy in programming usually never is. Regardless of whether the code is built ontop of existing code, or not, or to what extent, there will be problems. Development time here will also take awhile, several weeks to several months, though it will likely running in parallel with much of the art design phase above.
All of these people add up, regardless of how many the division of labor is on the project, if you have a bunch of people working together to churn it out quickly or a small side project while most of the team is busy elsewhere. According to Glassdoor, the average 3D artist salary is about $57,000, $73,000 for a Game Programmer, and about $70,000 for a texture artist. So if you had say, 2 modellers work on the sub for 3 months, 2 texture artists for 2 months, and 2 programmers for 2 months, you'd be spending around 75,000 worth of production time, not including the QA costs, on said Submarine in this example. These numbers of developers and time spent are completely figurative and used as an example purpose, and thus are likely inaccurate.
One final thing to take note of here is the opportunity cost, a critical thing when it comes to game development as well as many other industries, where if the limited assets a company has are spent implementing Y, the company may not have enough time and/or money to implement Z. We have seen this with a variety of features already in Subnautica, where ideas were deemed too time-consuming to do and scrapped or simplified, or because one feature took precedent over the other. So while this submarine example might seem like it costs a lot of money to do (it does), the money would likely be spent on something else within the Subnautica instead - so instead it comes to the question of what does one have to scrap to implement something else?
I hope this wall of text helps you better understand this, there's a lot going on in the background that a consumer such as you or I won't see much of. It's extremely fascinating to me to attempt to understand how the process works, and such amazing games come together - granted I'm trying to get into the field someday so I may be biased.
EDIT: Insane said what I said in significantly less words. :P
Good summary, although I might add that "rigging" a model to create things like doors that can be opened via programmed actions, that is usually done back at model-creation stage. Of course, inevitably a designer then gets a bright idea about how a particular object should now be used in the game and somebody has to go back re-work the model to suit.
When you're thinking about costs, also remember that a lot of Subnautica's art is being contracted out to Fox3D in Estonia (http://fox3d.com/). The Subnautica team itself will have at least an Art Lead who will help determine the overall look and coordinate work with their external partner, but may not be doing a lot of the actual production work themselves.
As has been pointed out, it's not quite as simple as that. Even ignoring all the other disciplines that go into it, making 3D assets is a different situation when you're trying to actually earn a living at it. Especially when you're re-working an asset yet again for a picky client and all the direction you're receiving is "Could you make it, you know, more science-fiction-y?"
But a good way to start heading in that direction is making mods for games. Start small and build up to moderately complex projects. Also, you may find some interesting reading over in the Polycount forums where a number of pros, and folks who want to become pros, hang out. (http://polycount.com/)
From a realism perspective, a Cyclops is probably one of the largest vessels a lone survivor could manage. Piloting, maintaining the engine, operating the controls (lights) and handling the docked submarine all require separate functions in separate places. Managing one of the really big subs would require lots of walking from station to station.
Which is why we should go with a medium-sized sub if it is possible. Squeal Like a Pig originally said that they wanted 2 small subs, 2 medium subs, and 2 large subs. We already have a small and large sub so we just need a medium sub. A medium sub makes more sense for going to areas like the Inactive Lava Zone where we have to navigate through a tunnel and carry our Exosuit.
Got to disagree with you on that one. The shark one is just a straight up superior design. The cyclops's terrible mobility and massive power use is pretty realistic for what you would get with something as hydrodynamic as a brick. And while the cyclops has a large observation window, it's poor design and the total lack of windows anywhere else means that it has very poor visibility. There is a reason that sharks are the top predators in the ocean, and that real life submarines take a lot of inspiration from them. Any real organization, regardless of how peaceful it may or may not be, would choose the shark like shape over the wasteful design of the cyclops in an instant.
And I honestly don't see how it looks warlike. To me, it just looks sleek and efficient. Peaceful intentions don't change the laws of physics.
Also, final note, it always bugs me when people say things like "you are a scientist" or "the ship was not here to exploit this planet". The story really doesn't support that. The ship was originally a colony ship: definitely conquest. Now it is a mining ship: still exploiting.
That! And that's exactly why I feel the Cyclops can't drive like a war sub or maneuver like a heavy weight Seamoth. It's the tourist sub for everyone. A mobile habitat rather than a true submarine. The game doesn't want the Cyclops being used as a weapon and ram leviathans to death. But what happens if you force every player to use a sub without allowing it to drive it elegantly? Won't it reduce the success of the game?
I'd wish you'd do, I really wish you could, so one day we see a Subnautica 2 with all those elements we wish.
Please, stay peaceful and non lethal with your game, but allow us to drive that Cyclops, so that it's actually fun doing it and not wishing to reach its location to release the Seamoth or Exomech or harvest new stuff.
Personally I'm Team Draconis here since it looks like it'd be easier to code and it'd be more maneuverable than the "Shark"
I don't see how you can't use the cyclops to ram things? My point wasn't the functionality of the subs but the looks. But even in terms of functionality the shark design would be the first pick. As Sayerulz and i already point out further up. The shark design is more efficient and would be what every organisation, that has the funds to start such a project, would go for. It is more streamlined and produces less water displacement which in return offers better maneuverability and requires less power to reach same speed. Simply said it is more efficient and the better choice.
EDIT:
Or just look at the Trello design "making the Cyclops more relevant". This was only necessary because no one likes driving the cyclops. But everyone likes driving the Seamoth.
The Second one is my FAVORITE
I do with they had more subs that were faster or could do special things
After all we use it mostly as a cargo ship and as most transports go it is storage over a slimdesign.
Maybe we can get the other subs in an expansion pack after the release of the main game, there are many more important things that need the dev's attention to make this game a succes so they can turn Subnautica in to a franchise what will give more room for expansions like Subs, land masses ect,