IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited June 2016
To set the record straight : Besides energy usage, Shadowstep actually had a very brief cooldown of 0.73s
Restricting movement for Stab only made sense when shadowstep existed.. because you could use it to move and land your stab
The ability has been useless for a while due to this, as well as games typically being over before being researched.
There's a lot of fun things you can do that wouldn't overlap with focus or Swipe, (Like return vortex as a way to pluck a single marine out from a group in order to 1v1 them in the ether) but really I dont think it's worth investing development time into so long as the round is over by then anyways - as an alien khammander I would still skip researching that in order to rush to Biomass 9 / contamination to end the round..
I have seen stab as not a player damage weapon, but as a structure damage weapon. Fade stab does puncture damage which does I think half damage on structures. With stab you can get more DPS which helps in killing structures. I would even go so far as to call this a hidden mechanic that even veterans don't really know about.
If it was made clear that stab was more oriented towards structure damage, would it be researched more?
A handful of times in games in the past I have pointed out that stab is far better for structure/armor damage and the response from other players has invariably been "Fades shouldn't be attacking structures anyway."
I have seen stab as not a player damage weapon, but as a structure damage weapon. Fade stab does puncture damage which does I think half damage on structures. With stab you can get more DPS which helps in killing structures. I would even go so far as to call this a hidden mechanic that even veterans don't really know about.
If it was made clear that stab was more oriented towards structure damage, would it be researched more?
The energy cost is too high for it to be effective in most scenarios
I rarely ever fade, so take this with a grain of salt. A few weeks ago I was fading and we were winning by a good bit. I am a bad fade which was helping the marine team hang on. The commander researched stab, so I went around stabbing RT's with skulks inbetween killing marines. It worked well. A skulk and I were able to kill an IP together while I used stab.
Acid rocket would be better for a structure weapon.
Well yea, there aren't many case where the fade should attack structures rather than scout and kill marines:
(to finish off an RT that has no armor or to body-block a phase gate, that's about it.)
Fade is the complete opposite of gorge. It's specialized in combat but with low structure damage. If you give it bile bomb or "acid rocket" it breaks its purpose.
Because removing structure damage is a band-aid for "fade-balls," not a real design decision.
Wait, what? What isn't a band-aid to you? Fade balls were a real problem. Puncture damage was a straightforward fix to the problem. I don't see the issue here.
A "band aid" would have been capping the amount of fades the team is permitted to have, or giving marines a weapon that kills fades quicker, or anything else that doesn't address the core problem: Fades were too god at everything, specifically they didn't require help killing structures as a lifeform made for killing enemies. Puncture damage goes straight towards the core of that problem. It's really not a band aid fix.
I also think giving fades an anti-structure ability (acid rocket, should it be implemented as one) would break the game for that very reason.
Avid rocket as a structure killing weapon, and armor reducing, would be late game tech. I would say no less than biomass 7. Being late game tech, its purpose would be to end games.
Acid rocket would allow fades to do more than just kill players, but allow a turtle to be ended sooner. Acid rocket would also allow fades to kill marines easier in late game, also helping end turtles.
It doesn't have to be as effective as bile bomb on structures. As long as it did more dps on structures than swipe does.
Avid rocket as a structure killing weapon, and armor reducing, would be late game tech. I would say no less than biomass 7. Being late game tech, its purpose would be to end games.
Acid rocket would allow fades to do more than just kill players, but allow a turtle to be ended sooner. Acid rocket would also allow fades to kill marines easier in late game, also helping end turtles.
It doesn't have to be as effective as bile bomb on structures. As long as it did more dps on structures than swipe does.
Since when having 3 hives became a win condition? Aren't you underestimating the damage output of late game marines a bit?
If aliens can't break a turtle it's often, lack of teamwork, or bad commander (doesnt use drifter support)
As for the reason why fades have low structural damage, well fades already have the tankiness and the speed,
It's simply a matter of rock paper scissors, if you want teamwork in a game, shouldn't give everything to 1 class.
I think it makes sense for 3 hives to be a win condition, but you only get the best abilities with a couple more biomass. That way, if marines can get the 3rd hive down right away they still can come back. I think acid rockets at biomass 8 or 9 would work.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
I agree with hive 3 not instantly being an autowin upon going up, but it should absolutely bring the big overpowered near impossibile to counter abilities with it after a couple minutes.
Since when having 3 hives became a win condition? Aren't you underestimating the damage output of late game marines a bit?
If aliens can't break a turtle it's often, lack of teamwork, or bad commander (doesnt use drifter support)
As for the reason why fades have low structural damage, well fades already have the tankiness and the speed,
It's simply a matter of rock paper scissors, if you want teamwork in a game, shouldn't give everything to 1 class.
The game has been designed as such that at the third hive, the alien team is supposed to win since b250. Contamination was always supposed to be a game ender and turtle breaker. When bile bomb damage was added to it, that was supposed to make it actually useful at ending games.
Perhaps fades don't really need another ability, but I still think an alternate attack would be nice. All other lifeforms have something. Skulks bite and parasite. Gorges spit and bile. Lerks poison bite and puncture. Oni gore and stomp. Each lifeform also has unique movement abilities and other roles. But since stab is fairly rare and useless, fades just swipe, blink, and metabolize. It works, but isn't as consistent when you see all of the extras every other lifeform gets. Adding a debuff to the attack could be simpler development-wise, but as it has been mentioned, re-adding acid rockets would be nice too. Otherwise, swipe might as well be disabled/removed.
Edit: Bug fixed in last patch. Still arguably useless.
Comments
This is called a cooldown.
No it's called active frames.
Restricting movement for Stab only made sense when shadowstep existed.. because you could use it to move and land your stab
The ability has been useless for a while due to this, as well as games typically being over before being researched.
There's a lot of fun things you can do that wouldn't overlap with focus or Swipe, (Like return vortex as a way to pluck a single marine out from a group in order to 1v1 them in the ether) but really I dont think it's worth investing development time into so long as the round is over by then anyways - as an alien khammander I would still skip researching that in order to rush to Biomass 9 / contamination to end the round..
If it was made clear that stab was more oriented towards structure damage, would it be researched more?
The energy cost is too high for it to be effective in most scenarios
Acid rocket would be better for a structure weapon.
I dont think it would be good, if its a structure only weapon...
Well yea, there aren't many case where the fade should attack structures rather than scout and kill marines:
(to finish off an RT that has no armor or to body-block a phase gate, that's about it.)
Fade is the complete opposite of gorge. It's specialized in combat but with low structure damage. If you give it bile bomb or "acid rocket" it breaks its purpose.
Halving fade structure damage is a band-aid fix to the game.
Why do you think so?
Wait, what? What isn't a band-aid to you? Fade balls were a real problem. Puncture damage was a straightforward fix to the problem. I don't see the issue here.
A "band aid" would have been capping the amount of fades the team is permitted to have, or giving marines a weapon that kills fades quicker, or anything else that doesn't address the core problem: Fades were too god at everything, specifically they didn't require help killing structures as a lifeform made for killing enemies. Puncture damage goes straight towards the core of that problem. It's really not a band aid fix.
I also think giving fades an anti-structure ability (acid rocket, should it be implemented as one) would break the game for that very reason.
...acid rocket for biomass 9? Right next to contamination...
Acid rocket would allow fades to do more than just kill players, but allow a turtle to be ended sooner. Acid rocket would also allow fades to kill marines easier in late game, also helping end turtles.
It doesn't have to be as effective as bile bomb on structures. As long as it did more dps on structures than swipe does.
And lift too ...
Since when having 3 hives became a win condition? Aren't you underestimating the damage output of late game marines a bit?
If aliens can't break a turtle it's often, lack of teamwork, or bad commander (doesnt use drifter support)
As for the reason why fades have low structural damage, well fades already have the tankiness and the speed,
It's simply a matter of rock paper scissors, if you want teamwork in a game, shouldn't give everything to 1 class.
The game has been designed as such that at the third hive, the alien team is supposed to win since b250. Contamination was always supposed to be a game ender and turtle breaker. When bile bomb damage was added to it, that was supposed to make it actually useful at ending games.
You can see more of this discussion in the following thread link, and I reccomend you bring it up there if you wish to discuss that aspect. http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2291222/#Comment_2291222
Edit: Bug fixed in last patch. Still arguably useless.