MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
yes we do. This is an essential step to get the learning curve in a direction where people are not overwhelmed with everything... combat did a decent job at that though...
yes we do. This is an essential step to get the learning curve in a direction where people are not overwhelmed with everything... combat did a decent job at that though...
An easier gamemode would really really help the rookies to get familar with the games mechanics. Yea, combat would be perfect for that. Combat as a free to play "demo" would be even better.
I'm saying... you can only "go" f2p once. Better not waste it when the game isn't ready for it yet.
Agreed that it shouldn't be wasted. However, devs have been saying this sorta stuff for probably well over a year now - that they're open to F2P but they need to get ready for it. I understand that it's not as if you're sitting around twiddling your fingers - that you're still working on and improving the game, and every improvement makes the game more ready to F2P. However, while we don't need to rush in f2p before we're ready, so far f2p has only ever been a topic that gets addressed vaguely - rather than offer a definite answer that this is the endgame, and one you're working towards (with some sort of timeframe as a goal to try and meet). It's hardly inspring confidence to the Aussie scene which has pretty much been at death's door for almost a year.
There's been a lot of words said in a lot of F2P threads. However, somehow, so far nothing that makes me feel any better about the future of the game (or rather, whether there is a future at all - for us down in aus at least).
If f2p we need a casual constant action game mode with an amount of strategy like ctf (capture the flag) with cp/sp (control points / spawn points).
Mod support hmm, it still feels like we don't really have mod support. New game modes tied into NS2 such as Combat and Last Stand are only as fun as the support they get. Combat died btw and was on another engine (stand alone/older Spark), alienated from NS2 Spark And the one we do have on this here engine is a lot less complete IIRC...
Not even mentioning the other total conversion mods or modified gameplay mods... So we do have that more casual no strings attached stuff already in here, but they are rather invisible
More players is always good but its really hard to switch from paid to F2P, TF2 did it, but TF2 is a game that has a broader scope for playerbase and it allowed itself to become really silly with the kinds of cosmetics it sold. I'm not exactly sure how NS2 would make the same conversion.
I'd really love there to be a larger community, I'm just not sure exactly how this game in particular would make that conversion work.
Maybe we could give everyone a free trial game? Like you can only access certain servers or maybe you get the full game but only for 5 hours or something? That could draw in new players without changing the game paid players have much.
If f2p we need a casual constant action game mode with an amount of strategy like ctf (capture the flag) with cp/sp (control points / spawn points).
Mod support hmm, it still feels like we don't really have mod support. New game modes tied into NS2 such as Combat and Last Stand are only as fun as the support they get. Combat died btw and was on another engine (stand alone/older Spark), alienated from NS2 Spark And the one we do have on this here engine is a lot less complete IIRC...
Not even mentioning the other total conversion mods or modified gameplay mods... So we do have that more casual no strings attached stuff already in here, but they are rather invisible
Having mods isn't enough, there needs to be an "official" 2nd game mode... one that doesn't break, that it in the official server tab and so on... a gamemode that is a feature rather than a mod, that is MUCH more casual, so that new players can just practice and have fun (I think gungame does a fantastic job for marines, having an alien counterpart would help a lot)
dont dmd run full modded servers ? with skins etc ? im not a mooder but i dont see how this would be so hard with the workshop items out now but like i said im not a modder and if i were a modder id have some sort of free to play model drafted out .
Also I believe matchmaking is not needed at all. People who are not clever enough to use a server browser are probably not the people who like a complex game like NS2.
AurOn2COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS!AustraliaJoin Date: 2012-01-13Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
edited July 2016
Those workshop mods Replace ALL Characters (who are running the model in question)
So you still only have to render one character model. instead of 10 who are entirely different models.
1. Let the cosmetics be authentic. Really when I see a marine wearing a Santa Claus hat I will quit this game. It would completely destroy the atmosphere.
I have to disagree. I'm for it going batshit insane.
1. Let the cosmetics be authentic. Really when I see a marine wearing a Santa Claus hat I will quit this game. It would completely destroy the atmosphere.
I have to disagree. I'm for it going batshit insane.
Those asking for new game modes such as capture the flag etc. There was a mod previously called factions. It completely changed the gameplay having a fully functional capture the flag, gungame mode similar (if not identical) to the current GG, but it had more features. The latest addition was entering the spaceship (as seen on landing pad) and flying that around with the exo gun shooting others in the ship.
The GG mode and the spaceship were on the same map with other mini games within it.
Capture the flag had its own map which were complete. It was different to ns2 but still fun.
I don't remember an issue with fps and my computer was quite old at the time.
Maybe someone could revive this mod and have it as a separate tab under Factions?. I think if you want to play some of these game modes there are other games which focuses and has better support these games styles.
NS2 unique gameplay will retain new players, perhaps more focus should be done on siege which retains ns2 style of marine vs alien. Siege could do more maps.
In regards to the f2p, I am for it (provided I get a reserved spot on the server I'm generally on)
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
Just a quick question here ladsNlassies... But does anyone in here think NS2 vanilla game play is even remotely equipped to be a casual, no strings attached, drop in drop out, F2P...?
I mean I for one see four major contributing factors, which prevents this from happening...
Commander mode, it is the core element of NS2, yet is also one of the main factors that kills a round or prevents the starting of a round
Resource system tied to time played on server (strings), also your respawns and death have a major influence on your team's strength (more strings)
Too fast moving aliens (too fast gameplay) and too alien (floor Skulks/Lerks, walker Fades, non tank Onos being used as one). And versus somewhat better aliens -> Marines left wondering WTF just killed them...
The game and maps are too dynamic, causing uncontrolled* and rather frustrating chaos and confusion. Usually territory control games in casual mode are set up with safe zones, while the combat itself is usually focussed on one or two areas. Or an area moving across the map, either in a push map fashion (objective based) or a mobile/dynamic target zone, instead of all over the map all at once
*Chaos in a controlled fashion, with focused combat areas can be a very fun experience. Just look at how people engage in Combat or the chaos ramp up in Last Stand, they are the epitome of chaos yet are still a fun teeth and scythe tornado of blazing guns. Under that brand of "Oh shit here they come" (from that particular area, instead of where did that come from, where am I, wtf is going on, well kinda "wtf is going on" but still less of a wtf and more of a going on... git me?)
So no... NS2 is too damn complex and you can slap all kinds of aids and shit in there, these things I mentioned cannot be changed to fix the major issues against going casual... If newUWE keeps pushing these through what will happen is, you'll get a game that is neither casual nor has the depth for hardcore games... Which already has happened...
Like I said many times before, stop messing with the thing (besides bugfixing) and friggin' work on a pure casual mode (mods already here?) to lure in those that outnumbers us 99/1 (the casual gamers)
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Kouji_San made a good point.
Some people in this community are thinking the game is not successfull cause it was balanced around competitive play.
The problem here is not the balancing aka "how many damage deal weapon x, how fast is alien class y"
Real reason why its not successful is: The core game is not for the casual gamer.
UWE could try to balance it for casuals but Wob has some good points why this would not be a good idea: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2300151/
Going f2p and adding some skins would not solve the fact: NS2 is not a casual game.
But with going f2p you want exact this type of player in the game.
So if you want more casual players in the game, you need to change the core machanics in a casual friendly way = huge dumbdown.
That was exactly what happended to Evolve.
I know, some will now crying:
Nooo, we need only some skins, thats enough for f2p.
Well, no. Thats not enough.
For way too long we have been hiding behind the excuse that:
"NS2 is not popular because it is too hard"
I understand that this excuse might make us feel better with ourselves because we play a "hard game" and allow us to justify the lack of popularity of this awesome game.
But honestly, MOBAs are not easy at all and they are filled with stupid and counter-intuitive hard hidden game mechanics. The major differences between MOBAs and NS2 are:
1) MOBAs are symmetrical games, so they are easy as hell to balance at any level
2) MOBAs went viral, so they had millions of people playing at highly different skill levels
thinking that 14 year old kids can play DOTA or LOL but that they cannot play NS2 because the game is much harder it is just arrogant. They cannot play NS2 only because we cannot have a NS2 Bronze League only filled with players of their skill
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
True, but MOBAs also have a third thing in their favor, at a first glance at any point in the game it is easier to follow the action due to the top view 2D map compared to a corridor shooter where you can get lost. And in an FPS you have blind spots, while in a topdown view you basically can see anything happening around your character, apart from hiding gankers in the bushes
The thing is, NS2 is just not as intuitive for newbies while also showering them in a layer of hidden game mechanics. It's that combination why this is a niche game
I'd like to point out that, if the game was made f2p over night, UWE would have to host ns2 servers again, because otherwise all those new players won't have a proper server to play on, which would make a lot of them uninstall again pretty quick.
For way too long we have been hiding behind the excuse that:
"NS2 is not popular because it is too hard"
I understand that this excuse might make us feel better with ourselves because we play a "hard game" and allow us to justify the lack of popularity of this awesome game.
But honestly, MOBAs are not easy at all and they are filled with stupid and counter-intuitive hard hidden game mechanics. The major differences between MOBAs and NS2 are:
1) MOBAs are symmetrical games, so they are easy as hell to balance at any level
2) MOBAs went viral, so they had millions of people playing at highly different skill levels
thinking that 14 year old kids can play DOTA or LOL but that they cannot play NS2 because the game is much harder it is just arrogant. They cannot play NS2 only because we cannot have a NS2 Bronze League only filled with players of their skill
I'd argue that yes, as far as the average player is concerned, ns2 is more difficult than a MOBA.
However, you're on to something. I think a gamemode/spinoff/whathaveyou that turns ns2 in an asymmetric first person MOBA is a very interesting concept that should be explored more.
Afaik this is what the combat devs were going for (later on in development). Sadly this didn't get very far due to... well everything else.
Arena shooters in general (with very loose definitions, I guess ns2 can be considered an arena shooter), operate under this assumption, that the game is completely unapproachable to new players. It's too hard.
When overwatch got out, all we fucking heard about, was how quake players would dominate that game, because they supposedly have the best aim of any genre. Evidentally, that's not the case.
Of course, I had 2,500 hours in NS2 when I made my first attempt at an arena shooter, Reflex. But still, I was a new player. What I found, to my surprise, is that a lot of these arena fps players aim, are actually quite underwhelming, compared to what I see from other genres, here including NS2.
What they excel at however, is strategy, tactics, movement, map and item control and not least; projectile weapon aim (something NS2 completely lacks, but that's an entrely different discussion). Meaning, even tho I'd out aim them, in my early reflex carreer, I'd still lose 0 - 40 in duels, because I was litterally decades behind in this meta game. Sounds familiar yet?
But after a few months, I've somewhat caught up in the meta game, and I'm doing significantly better. Beating players now that would stomp me a week ago.
What I'm trying to say here is this; If the arena shooter genre is not "unapproachable", then neither is NS2. But as @Blrg eludes to, we keep selling both NS2 and arena shooters in general, as "too hard". They are not! You can catch up in these genres if you put the time in, and we need to communicate that much better I think.
The realization that NS2 is not as hard as you think it is, doesn't make you any less cool for being good at it (And I don't mean that in a condescending way, but an endearing way!!)
The one thing that determines the difficulty of a game, is the skill gap between you and your opponent. That is what NS2 and arena shooters suffer from. Massive skill gaps. But it isn't any mechanic within the games that causes this, it's simply a poor skill distribution, which is largely due to a lack of playerbase. The only way to fix this, is skill segregation, and yes, I will repeat this ad nauseam. No balance change or mechanic will ever fix the skill gap issues.
@SantaClaws if you want a true arena shooter, you play quake or unreal tournament. Reflex is nice and all, but it can't hold it's own against those two.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2016
I do think there's a large difference in difficulty between MOBAs and arena shooters.. and it comes from additional physical input.
You're not just timing cooldowns from an isometric view, you're controlling a simulation of yourself in a complicated 3D environment where skilled movement, accurate twitch shots, and tracking is what separates the skill levels - until you reach a high enough skill that those cooldowns and timings are what separate the wheat from the chaff purely because such rote game mechanics are often not at the forefront of peoples' minds given the important and immediate stimuli occurring in front of them.
Yes, they both share the complexity of mechanics as well as game knowledge, positioning and strategy etc. but there's a very different skill set required when you're not just clicking an order for your character(s) to navigate to or juggling keys 1,2,3. Have you ever watched someone play a FPS for the first time? Or a mediocre player attempt a FPS jumping puzzle? It's hysterical because just learning to navigate an environment slowly is a task, let alone stuff like this
It just requires more from the player, imo, and specifically in the form of physical input within the game world. Not talking about APM here, but utilizing many axis of movement and weapons harmoniously. You know a skilled arena player when you see one.. it doesn't boil down to just strategy, just positioning, just timings etc.. there's a lot to account for.. even the way they move is notable and unique.
@IronHorse I played the old original wc3 custom game dota sometimes. That's the extend of my moba carreer.
But I did play RTS games a ton, namely WC2, SC and a little competitive SC2 back in WoL. And watching people play RTS games for the first time, or a mediocre player attempt a workersplit, is every bit as cringey and hysterical. In fact, when ever I watch a NS2 stream of commanders, even experienced or competitive ones, I can't stand watching for more than a few minutes, because of a lack in mechanical skill, and sometimes basic awareness, makes me cringe.
So I just don't see the big difference in that regard. I will of course agree, that the skillsets required are different. You can't just translate the mechanical skill from RTS in to FPS, obviously. But I don't think either is harder than the other.
If anything, I'd say RTS games are harder, because there's a sea of competitive players all climbing for the top vs. a handful in a game like NS2.
Comments
No we bloody don't lol
An easier gamemode would really really help the rookies to get familar with the games mechanics. Yea, combat would be perfect for that. Combat as a free to play "demo" would be even better.
If they can create something from nothing, they've got bigger fish to fry than small independent game studios.
Besides, for what we're looking to (possibly) do, this would not be achievable with mods alone, it would require engine work.
This let's new players try a casual "tdm" style of gameplay, and when they're ready for more strategy they can buy into the "full version" of NS2...
Having skins transfer across both games will also encourage people to buy.
Devsplain please.
Agreed that it shouldn't be wasted. However, devs have been saying this sorta stuff for probably well over a year now - that they're open to F2P but they need to get ready for it. I understand that it's not as if you're sitting around twiddling your fingers - that you're still working on and improving the game, and every improvement makes the game more ready to F2P. However, while we don't need to rush in f2p before we're ready, so far f2p has only ever been a topic that gets addressed vaguely - rather than offer a definite answer that this is the endgame, and one you're working towards (with some sort of timeframe as a goal to try and meet). It's hardly inspring confidence to the Aussie scene which has pretty much been at death's door for almost a year.
There's been a lot of words said in a lot of F2P threads. However, somehow, so far nothing that makes me feel any better about the future of the game (or rather, whether there is a future at all - for us down in aus at least).
Mod support hmm, it still feels like we don't really have mod support. New game modes tied into NS2 such as Combat and Last Stand are only as fun as the support they get. Combat died btw and was on another engine (stand alone/older Spark), alienated from NS2 Spark
Not even mentioning the other total conversion mods or modified gameplay mods... So we do have that more casual no strings attached stuff already in here, but they are rather invisible
I'd really love there to be a larger community, I'm just not sure exactly how this game in particular would make that conversion work.
Maybe we could give everyone a free trial game? Like you can only access certain servers or maybe you get the full game but only for 5 hours or something? That could draw in new players without changing the game paid players have much.
Having mods isn't enough, there needs to be an "official" 2nd game mode... one that doesn't break, that it in the official server tab and so on... a gamemode that is a feature rather than a mod, that is MUCH more casual, so that new players can just practice and have fun (I think gungame does a fantastic job for marines, having an alien counterpart would help a lot)
Yeah, yeah we do... we REALLY do... its not mandatory for people to play it, but it would certainly help anyone that is new coming into this game now.
Also I believe matchmaking is not needed at all. People who are not clever enough to use a server browser are probably not the people who like a complex game like NS2.
So you still only have to render one character model. instead of 10 who are entirely different models.
Batman armor
The GG mode and the spaceship were on the same map with other mini games within it.
Capture the flag had its own map which were complete. It was different to ns2 but still fun.
I don't remember an issue with fps and my computer was quite old at the time.
Maybe someone could revive this mod and have it as a separate tab under Factions?. I think if you want to play some of these game modes there are other games which focuses and has better support these games styles.
NS2 unique gameplay will retain new players, perhaps more focus should be done on siege which retains ns2 style of marine vs alien. Siege could do more maps.
In regards to the f2p, I am for it (provided I get a reserved spot on the server I'm generally on)
I mean I for one see four major contributing factors, which prevents this from happening...
*Chaos in a controlled fashion, with focused combat areas can be a very fun experience. Just look at how people engage in Combat or the chaos ramp up in Last Stand, they are the epitome of chaos yet are still a fun teeth and scythe tornado of blazing guns. Under that brand of "Oh shit here they come" (from that particular area, instead of where did that come from, where am I, wtf is going on, well kinda "wtf is going on" but still less of a wtf and more of a going on... git me?)
So no... NS2 is too damn complex and you can slap all kinds of aids and shit in there, these things I mentioned cannot be changed to fix the major issues against going casual... If newUWE keeps pushing these through what will happen is, you'll get a game that is neither casual nor has the depth for hardcore games... Which already has happened...
Like I said many times before, stop messing with the thing (besides bugfixing) and friggin' work on a pure casual mode (mods already here?) to lure in those that outnumbers us 99/1 (the casual gamers)
Some people in this community are thinking the game is not successfull cause it was balanced around competitive play.
The problem here is not the balancing aka "how many damage deal weapon x, how fast is alien class y"
Real reason why its not successful is: The core game is not for the casual gamer.
UWE could try to balance it for casuals but Wob has some good points why this would not be a good idea:
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2300151/
Going f2p and adding some skins would not solve the fact: NS2 is not a casual game.
But with going f2p you want exact this type of player in the game.
So if you want more casual players in the game, you need to change the core machanics in a casual friendly way = huge dumbdown.
That was exactly what happended to Evolve.
I know, some will now crying:
Nooo, we need only some skins, thats enough for f2p.
Well, no. Thats not enough.
"NS2 is not popular because it is too hard"
I understand that this excuse might make us feel better with ourselves because we play a "hard game" and allow us to justify the lack of popularity of this awesome game.
But honestly, MOBAs are not easy at all and they are filled with stupid and counter-intuitive hard hidden game mechanics. The major differences between MOBAs and NS2 are:
1) MOBAs are symmetrical games, so they are easy as hell to balance at any level
2) MOBAs went viral, so they had millions of people playing at highly different skill levels
thinking that 14 year old kids can play DOTA or LOL but that they cannot play NS2 because the game is much harder it is just arrogant. They cannot play NS2 only because we cannot have a NS2 Bronze League only filled with players of their skill
The thing is, NS2 is just not as intuitive for newbies while also showering them in a layer of hidden game mechanics. It's that combination why this is a niche game
Thx for confirm that a NS2 f2p needs more than skins.
I'd argue that yes, as far as the average player is concerned, ns2 is more difficult than a MOBA.
However, you're on to something. I think a gamemode/spinoff/whathaveyou that turns ns2 in an asymmetric first person MOBA is a very interesting concept that should be explored more.
Afaik this is what the combat devs were going for (later on in development). Sadly this didn't get very far due to... well everything else.
When overwatch got out, all we fucking heard about, was how quake players would dominate that game, because they supposedly have the best aim of any genre. Evidentally, that's not the case.
Of course, I had 2,500 hours in NS2 when I made my first attempt at an arena shooter, Reflex. But still, I was a new player. What I found, to my surprise, is that a lot of these arena fps players aim, are actually quite underwhelming, compared to what I see from other genres, here including NS2.
What they excel at however, is strategy, tactics, movement, map and item control and not least; projectile weapon aim (something NS2 completely lacks, but that's an entrely different discussion). Meaning, even tho I'd out aim them, in my early reflex carreer, I'd still lose 0 - 40 in duels, because I was litterally decades behind in this meta game. Sounds familiar yet?
But after a few months, I've somewhat caught up in the meta game, and I'm doing significantly better. Beating players now that would stomp me a week ago.
What I'm trying to say here is this; If the arena shooter genre is not "unapproachable", then neither is NS2. But as @Blrg eludes to, we keep selling both NS2 and arena shooters in general, as "too hard". They are not! You can catch up in these genres if you put the time in, and we need to communicate that much better I think.
The realization that NS2 is not as hard as you think it is, doesn't make you any less cool for being good at it
The one thing that determines the difficulty of a game, is the skill gap between you and your opponent. That is what NS2 and arena shooters suffer from. Massive skill gaps. But it isn't any mechanic within the games that causes this, it's simply a poor skill distribution, which is largely due to a lack of playerbase. The only way to fix this, is skill segregation, and yes, I will repeat this ad nauseam. No balance change or mechanic will ever fix the skill gap issues.
You're not just timing cooldowns from an isometric view, you're controlling a simulation of yourself in a complicated 3D environment where skilled movement, accurate twitch shots, and tracking is what separates the skill levels - until you reach a high enough skill that those cooldowns and timings are what separate the wheat from the chaff purely because such rote game mechanics are often not at the forefront of peoples' minds given the important and immediate stimuli occurring in front of them.
Yes, they both share the complexity of mechanics as well as game knowledge, positioning and strategy etc. but there's a very different skill set required when you're not just clicking an order for your character(s) to navigate to or juggling keys 1,2,3. Have you ever watched someone play a FPS for the first time? Or a mediocre player attempt a FPS jumping puzzle? It's hysterical because just learning to navigate an environment slowly is a task, let alone stuff like this
It just requires more from the player, imo, and specifically in the form of physical input within the game world. Not talking about APM here, but utilizing many axis of movement and weapons harmoniously. You know a skilled arena player when you see one.. it doesn't boil down to just strategy, just positioning, just timings etc.. there's a lot to account for.. even the way they move is notable and unique.
But I did play RTS games a ton, namely WC2, SC and a little competitive SC2 back in WoL. And watching people play RTS games for the first time, or a mediocre player attempt a workersplit, is every bit as cringey and hysterical. In fact, when ever I watch a NS2 stream of commanders, even experienced or competitive ones, I can't stand watching for more than a few minutes, because of a lack in mechanical skill, and sometimes basic awareness, makes me cringe.
So I just don't see the big difference in that regard. I will of course agree, that the skillsets required are different. You can't just translate the mechanical skill from RTS in to FPS, obviously. But I don't think either is harder than the other.
If anything, I'd say RTS games are harder, because there's a sea of competitive players all climbing for the top vs. a handful in a game like NS2.