I'm sorry, but no, the change does not limit you to get better accuracy than others. I know this is weird, but you're thinking about it wrong.
There is no definitive definition for what "skill ceiling" means. Almost every post I read when I googled it says it like I did. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I think you're thinking about it wrong
|- Skill ceiling, playing perfect, you can no longer improve at the game (practically no one will ever reach this)
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|- Skill floor, being effective in the game
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|- herp derp how do i shoot
The hitbox change lowered both, the skill required to reach that ceiling is less, as is the skill required to be effective. Basically the drawing I made shrunk and became a bit shorter. I think the skulk change was much better, many higher level players were already hitting nearly all their bites anyway, so it doesn't change their accuracy much. Rookies and average players however might see much improved bite accuracy, so it brought the skill floor down way more than skill ceiling. The height of the drawing didn't change much, but the skill floor marker moved down.
Recipe for success = low skill floor, high skill ceiling.
The floor describes the skill required to be effective at something.
The skill ceiling is the utmost highest effectiveness something can have, when you have the skill of a god.
The floor is about accessibility. How much skill it requires to be effective at that thing.
An aimbot that hits with 100% accuracy raises the skill floor to the level of the skill ceiling. A monkey can be as good as god with an aim bot that hits with 100%.
This is by far, the, biggest, most.. ridicilous i've seen in the later patches that's come out. So.. what's next to nerf aliens? lower HP on every single lifeform?
But no.. this is just soo wrong to see, every server has at this moment increased their winning rate with marines so much that's it's hilarious! For gods sake..
And even hide the changes from the first place for your customers/players? eh... havent you guys learned anything from your previous mistakes?
The floor describes the skill required to be effective at something.
The skill ceiling is the utmost highest effectiveness something can have, when you have the skill of a god.
The floor is about accessibility. How much skill it requires to be effective at that thing.
An aimbot that hits with 100% accuracy raises the skill floor to the level of the skill ceiling. A monkey can be as good as god with an aim bot that hits with 100%.
Yes, and if you were to give that aimbot to everyone both the skill floor and skill ceiling would be low compared to other games. That's what it is about in the end, comparing it to other games. If the metric can't be compared with other games then it's a useless metric. Similarly if NS2 would be changed so radically that new players get close to the skill ceiling without much effort, it would mean that the skill ceiling has been lowered drastically and is now lower than many other competitive games.
After a long time of playing NS2 b305 made me register here.
I agree that it is by far the worst of the patches i've played.
Worse then the serverbrowser chance that killed wooza, worse then the healthbar. worse then the pingbar.
Since the release of 305 i`ve been unable to get a proper round of NS2.
On aliens you are boxed into spawn within 3 to 7 minutes.
On Marines you are boxing in the aliens within 3 to 7 Minutes without even trying.
At first i was wondering if there was a new aimbot out because of the way the Marines now decimate skulks.
Even in the rare cases when the Aliens were able to hold 2 hives and 3 to 4 nodes the whole game they still loose.
Before you go on the usual: subjective blablabla you are wrong spree:
Check the Wonitor stats of the servers vs. game Version.
You'll see:
Avarage roundtime has gone down
Marine winrate is up about 20%
Early game aliens were always at a disadvantage this change makes it borderline impossible for the aliens to even get to midgame unless they have a skill advantage of at least 300 ELO.
It's a complicated concept to understand, so I totally get how the misconception occurs.. but @Bicsum is correct.
Even if a change allowed every single marine to have 50% accuracy tomorrow.. the skill ceiling would still not be lowered because the ceiling is still 100% accuracy as it always has been.
Making it easier to reach the ceiling is the skill floor... whereas limiting what is possible would be an example of lowering the ceiling.
It's a complicated concept to understand, so I totally get how the misconception occurs.. but @Bicsum is correct.
Even if a change allowed every single marine to have 50% accuracy tomorrow.. the skill ceiling would still not be lowered because the ceiling is still 100% accuracy as it always has been.
Making it easier to reach the ceiling is the skill floor... whereas limiting what is possible would be an example of lowering the ceiling.
Well then again we have to agree to disagree unless you can provide an explanation from somewhere that isn't just "because I say so". Every first page result on google when searching skill floor vs skill ceiling seems to mirror what I said. Let's use MOBA heroes as a comparison for example since that's where the term is used a lot. A hero with a high skill ceiling takes MORE skill to reach that ceiling, a hero with a lower skill ceiling takes LESS skill to reach that ceiling. In NS2 it now takes LESS skill to shoot 100%, therefore the skill ceiling is LOWER than it used to be.
With your logic every MOBA hero has the same skill ceiling since that "100% perfect" execution is possible with all of them.
Who cares what 'skill ceiling' means. Focusing only on accuracy, we can call the 'skill ceiling' the maximum possible accuracy (100%), or we can focus on the difficulty of reaching that level. If we gave every player an autoaim ability, the skill ceiling would still be 100% in the former sense, but negligible in the latter sense. This is all just semantics. The main complaint at issue is that a level of performance that used to require a certain amount of skill no longer requires that level of skill (i.e. that the skill ceiling, in the latter sense, has been lowered). Maybe there's a good complaint there, maybe's there's not - we should talk about that - but the meaning of 'skill ceiling' is a distraction.
The floor describes the skill required to be effective at something.
The skill ceiling is the utmost highest effectiveness something can have, when you have the skill of a god.
The floor is about accessibility. How much skill it requires to be effective at that thing.
An aimbot that hits with 100% accuracy raises the skill floor to the level of the skill ceiling. A monkey can be as good as god with an aim bot that hits with 100%.
Yes, and if you were to give that aimbot to everyone both the skill floor and skill ceiling would be low compared to other games. That's what it is about in the end, comparing it to other games. If the metric can't be compared with other games then it's a useless metric. Similarly if NS2 would be changed so radically that new players get close to the skill ceiling without much effort, it would mean that the skill ceiling has been lowered drastically and is now lower than many other competitive games.
It doesn't work like that. You're changing the correlation the metric applies to.
When you're giving every player on the server an external aimbot, then you raise the potential effectiveness in terms of hitting to 100%, because every player has 100% skill through the aim bot.
When your game has a built in aim bot, then there is no spectrum at all. Everyone is equally effective in terms of shooting, no matter the skill.
If you compare NS2 shooting to other comp games shooting, then you can't really use the terms skill floor or ceiling, because they describe the effectiveness of a thing in one system. You can say that the shooting part in csgo is harder compared to NS2, because in CSGO you do not only have to aim, but also compensate for recoil, but that doesn't mean CSGO has a higher skill ceiling than ns2, because it is not what it describes.
The floor describes the skill required to be effective at something.
The skill ceiling is the utmost highest effectiveness something can have, when you have the skill of a god.
The floor is about accessibility. How much skill it requires to be effective at that thing.
An aimbot that hits with 100% accuracy raises the skill floor to the level of the skill ceiling. A monkey can be as good as god with an aim bot that hits with 100%.
Yes, and if you were to give that aimbot to everyone both the skill floor and skill ceiling would be low compared to other games. That's what it is about in the end, comparing it to other games. If the metric can't be compared with other games then it's a useless metric. Similarly if NS2 would be changed so radically that new players get close to the skill ceiling without much effort, it would mean that the skill ceiling has been lowered drastically and is now lower than many other competitive games.
It doesn't work like that. You're changing the correlation the metric applies to.
When you're giving every player on the server an external aimbot, then you raise the potential effectiveness in terms of hitting to 100%, because every player has 100% skill through the aim bot.
When your game has a built in aim bot, then there is no spectrum at all. Everyone is equally effective in terms of shooting, no matter the skill.
If you compare NS2 shooting to other comp games shooting, then you can't really use the terms skill floor or ceiling, because they describe the effectiveness of a thing in one system. You can say that the shooting part in csgo is harder compared to NS2, because in CSGO you do not only have to aim, but also compensate for recoil, but that doesn't mean CSGO has a higher skill ceiling than ns2, because it is not what it describes.
Obviously not since shooting is not the only skill you need in CSGO (nor ns2), but you can still say that overall game A has a higher skill ceiling than game B, or that moba hero A has a higher skill ceiling than hero B. This is how the term skill floor and ceiling are used. By your logic every moba hero has the exact same skill ceiling since they all have that theoretical 100% execution, making the entire concept totally worthless. Which is why no one uses it that way.
Who cares what 'skill ceiling' means. Focusing only on accuracy, we can call the 'skill ceiling' the maximum possible accuracy (100%), or we can focus on the difficulty of reaching that level. If we gave every player an autoaim ability, the skill ceiling would still be 100% in the former sense, but negligible in the latter sense. This is all just semantics. The main complaint at issue is that a level of performance that used to require a certain amount of skill no longer requires that level of skill (i.e. that the skill ceiling, in the latter sense, has been lowered). Maybe there's a good complaint there, maybe's there's not - we should talk about that - but the meaning of 'skill ceiling' is a distraction.
Spot on, really neither of us are right or wrong since there is no real definition for the term. My argument is mostly that the way people use and understand this term is the latter (which in the end is all that matters). I'll stop talking about it now.
Thanks for deleting my within guideline threads regarding UWE's direction with NS2. I will now apply for a consumer case against you breaking your own guidelines and take my post to various boards across steam.
This finally proved to me that you're incapable of taking critic from your own players and are lost in your own ego.
Have a great life with this ****ed game.
Then they really did delete that post. What the actual fuck. Apart from the title, that was the nicest bloody writing I've seen in days.
Is there a way for me to support your case from abroad? I might be able to pull out the HTTP traffic from my router logs...
@IronHorse we could debate what skill floor and ceiling is, but you can't deny that enlarging hitboxes makes it easier for every spectrum of players to hit their target. Soooo... making them bigger gets you nowhere in terms of skill distribution.
Btw, @Rautapalli got it right if we consider how the majority of people use the term. And since there is no official definition, I'd go with precedence.
A hero with a high skill ceiling takes MORE skill to reach that ceiling.
The ceiling is defined by when you can no longer do anything that would make you better, when you are 100%., whatever that may be.
What's important in this instance is to recognize that the ceiling in this case is 100% accuracy. Marines are not hitting 100% accuracy, they never have and probably never will.. it's an incredibly high ceiling.
Making a 15% accurate marine shoot 20% doesn't change the fact that the ceiling remains at 100%... it just lessens the skill gap between the floor and the ceiling.
A hero with a high skill ceiling takes MORE skill to reach that ceiling.
The ceiling is defined by when you can no longer do anything that would make you better, when you are 100%., whatever that may be.
What's important in this instance is to recognize that the ceiling in this case is 100% accuracy. Marines are not hitting 100% accuracy, they never have and probably never will.. it's an incredibly high ceiling.
Making a 15% accurate marine shoot 20% doesn't change the fact that the ceiling remains at 100%... it just lessens the skill gap between the floor and the ceiling.
OK, 100% can never be reached, we agree on that. Lets say the top players have around 60% accuracy.
Enlarging hitboxes still gives plenty of room for them to get 65% accuracy. And we are back to square one.
A hero with a high skill ceiling takes MORE skill to reach that ceiling.
The ceiling is defined by when you can no longer do anything that would make you better, when you are 100%., whatever that may be.
What's important in this instance is to recognize that the ceiling in this case is 100% accuracy. Marines are not hitting 100% accuracy, they never have and probably never will.. it's an incredibly high ceiling.
Making a 15% accurate marine shoot 20% doesn't change the fact that the ceiling remains at 100%... it just lessens the skill gap between the floor and the ceiling.
OK, 100% can never be reached, we agree on that. Lets say the top players have around 60% accuracy.
Enlarging hitboxes still gives plenty of room for them to get 65% accuracy. And we are back to square one.
Sure, but that 100% accuracy ceiling remains in place, doesn't it?
It didn't suddenly get lowered to 70% as being the point where "you can no longer do anything that would make you better", right?
Therefore, the ceiling remains in place, and the floor is lowered.
Now if we wanted to talk about the skill curve instead... I'm more than willing to concede how that's changed. I just couldn't read another post saying that the ceiling is what was lowered.
But we dont care about the semantics!!!!! :] You're chasing your own tails with these updates... You could develop mini-games that encourage rookies to practice without punishment. Instead you meddle with the balance under the impression that it will appeal to new players. New players who leave do it because they get stomped on pub when they first play the interesting aliens...
Instead you meddle with the balance under the impression that it will appeal to new players.
I do personally think that it feels better, as a non new player, and have to assume that it also feels better as a new player.. since missing when you feel like you should be hitting is frustrating.
That being said, I of course agree regarding the chasing tail analogy.. Aliens are weak in the early game and have been for a while, this doesn't help with that.
I think they fare just fine though mid to late game, especially given the pres changes.
Hopefully addressing the alien early game is the next step and the chasing of the tail ends?
You can argue semantics all you want, but Bicsum and IronHorse seem to be the only two ones who think of skill ceiling in a different way. Most here seem to agree that skill ceiling = that point in skill where you can no longer improve your performance by practising and getting better. You can now reach the point of landing 100% of your shots with less effort than before, and you hit the ceiling of "I can't get better than this" earlier. Bigger hitboxes lower both the skill floor and the skill ceiling; they make it easier to be effective and they make it easier to be perfect.
By your logic, a game mechanic of pressing mouse1 to instantly kill all enemies would not lower the skill ceiling.
The reason why people are saying they lowered the skill ceiling is because, in fact, they drastically changed the skill CURVE, ie. the curve between floor and ceiling (it's not a straight line). However, the main idea behind everyone's disapproval of this change still applies.
Also, when I first started reading this thread, I honestly believed it to be some kind of ironic joke (with the blatant controversy and ninja change). Congratulations to the devs for finally hitting the nail on the head with the community's trust in them. Trying to ascertain UWE's motivations is just as impossible as trying to with Tzeentch at this point.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
I don't understand you guys.
For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years. Roflstomping is not what makes NS good!
How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!
What makes NS2 great is the complexity of the combat and the strategy, not how difficult it is to aim effectively. Naturally, the current situation probably still needs some clever rebalancing, but it doesn't take away from any of the things that make NS great, and hopefully fixes everyone's #1 complaint.
How difficult it is to aim effectively makes NS2 great as well. The strategy in NS2 is pretty weak, compared to dedicated RTS, so what makes it great is the combination of strategy and good fps meaning also challenging.
It isn't a correct step to try to "balance" the game by effectively making bad marines better artificially and the almost-untouchable marine players even more untouchable. I would also call this "dumbing down" the game by making good aim matter less, i.e. lack of punishment for mistakes. The correct step is to make the bad marine players not bad... then again, realistically that's pretty difficult in an online game.
The more of these changes go in, the more the few remaining people who are "good" will continue playing, unless all there is are average-noobs in a muddy "game" where skill hardly matters and maybe you don't get "stacks" because it's impossible to stack or it doesn't matter as much. I would suggest that then not 1 out of 10 rounds will be good, zero out of 10 will be good.
Maybe there will be more players though... who knows I guess. So if you're going for numbers, maybe it's a good strat...
For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years.
How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!
Looking at all those comments, this change shows no hope of fixing it unless I've missed something.
NS2 is a deformed child, covered in purulent wounds all over its body and every attempt to change NS2 is seen as stab in the back by those hundreds of mothers, who represent this community.
You mothers keep saying how beautiful your disgusting kid is, but it really needs a good smack on its knee with a meat tenderizer in order to help him walk straight again. One smack is often not enough, because after fixing one part of his disgusting deformed leg, deficits in his other horrifying leg might emerge, but you mothers don't see this. You're like: "You hurt my child now it will never be able to walk again!!!"...
NS2 pre 250 didn't have legs at all. It was a torso standing in a puddle of shit, but look how many people defended it and threatened to leave, even though it was in so many ways terrible.
The former comp mod put knee and elbow guards on the game and strapped it on a rollator, but that didn't fix its problems, it just allowed it to walk for 2 meters, but it's a misery to watch (and to play).
To anyone who feels betrayed: just leave and check the game out later again. I've seen a lot of veterans coming back to the game lately, who enjoyed its current state. They come back open minded. They don't know that the hitbox increased by, idk, 10%. They don't know that the PRES flow was increased.
They expirience the game in its current state. They are happy that fade balls were fixed. They are happy that hitting in this game now works pretty much consistently.
I'm not saying the PDT does everything right, but at least they're trying to fix some unfun parts in this game, and that I am grateful for.
For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years. Roflstomping is not what makes NS good!
How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!
What makes NS2 great is the complexity of the combat and the strategy, not how difficult it is to aim effectively. Naturally, the current situation probably still needs some clever rebalancing, but it doesn't take away from any of the things that make NS great, and hopefully fixes everyone's #1 complaint.
Congratulations, you have no idea what you are talking about and assume things you simply don't know. On top of that you are just wrong.
@Bicsum like... that's the worst analogy I've ever seen in my life.
There were times when I havent played for months, and the only positive big changes by the PDT I see are the 3 tier upgrades (taken largely from compmod i think). Otherwise, its either neutral or just plain garbage without any holistic insight. Just patching here and there, let's see what happens
Aside: http://steamcharts.com/app/4920#All
2016 january procuced an increase, which i account to the curiosity of players about the new dev team. But see the steady decline?
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
edited July 2016
As if the pub balance hadn't been terrible enough for the last few years, you go and do this. This is nearly as annoying as the Rust devs putting the XP system into Rust
Instead you meddle with the balance under the impression that it will appeal to new players.
I do personally think that it feels better, as a non new player, and have to assume that it also feels better as a new player.. since missing when you feel like you should be hitting is frustrating.
Are we talking about shooting between skulk legs, or delayed hitbox vs model?
If the former, then whatthehell, you should't be hitting the skulk if you shoot between its legs.
If the latter, then whatthehell, you're enlarging the hitboxes to hide hitreg issues
Instead you meddle with the balance under the impression that it will appeal to new players.
I do personally think that it feels better, as a non new player, and have to assume that it also feels better as a new player.. since missing when you feel like you should be hitting is frustrating.
Are we talking about shooting between skulk legs, or delayed hitbox vs model?
If the former, then whatthehell, you should't be hitting the skulk if you shoot between its legs.
If the latter, then whatthehell, you're enlarging the hitboxes to hide hitreg issues
All this talk about floors and ceilings, cmon trixx or @Wake gif me a funny .gif please
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
just saying what would probably help rookies to land skulk bites is like doubling the "firerate" of bites but only doing half damage per bite. Rookies tend to hold down the bite button when fighting and that way they completely miss the right timing. A faster bite rate could help with that...
Even though personally I don't think I would like that change^^
just saying what would probably help rookies to land skulk bites is like doubling the "firerate" of bites but only doing half damage per bite. Rookies tend to hold down the bite button when fighting and that way they completely miss the right timing. A faster bite rate could help with that...
Even though personally I don't think I would like that change^^
That would have impact everything, structures would need their values re-adjusted which in turn affects other alien abilities let alone how much faster it would be to kill marines.
Comments
There is no definitive definition for what "skill ceiling" means. Almost every post I read when I googled it says it like I did. So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I think you're thinking about it wrong
|- Skill ceiling, playing perfect, you can no longer improve at the game (practically no one will ever reach this)
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|- Skill floor, being effective in the game
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|- herp derp how do i shoot
The hitbox change lowered both, the skill required to reach that ceiling is less, as is the skill required to be effective. Basically the drawing I made shrunk and became a bit shorter. I think the skulk change was much better, many higher level players were already hitting nearly all their bites anyway, so it doesn't change their accuracy much. Rookies and average players however might see much improved bite accuracy, so it brought the skill floor down way more than skill ceiling. The height of the drawing didn't change much, but the skill floor marker moved down.
Recipe for success = low skill floor, high skill ceiling.
The skill ceiling is the utmost highest effectiveness something can have, when you have the skill of a god.
The floor is about accessibility. How much skill it requires to be effective at that thing.
An aimbot that hits with 100% accuracy raises the skill floor to the level of the skill ceiling. A monkey can be as good as god with an aim bot that hits with 100%.
edit:
But no.. this is just soo wrong to see, every server has at this moment increased their winning rate with marines so much that's it's hilarious! For gods sake..
And even hide the changes from the first place for your customers/players? eh... havent you guys learned anything from your previous mistakes?
Yes, and if you were to give that aimbot to everyone both the skill floor and skill ceiling would be low compared to other games. That's what it is about in the end, comparing it to other games. If the metric can't be compared with other games then it's a useless metric. Similarly if NS2 would be changed so radically that new players get close to the skill ceiling without much effort, it would mean that the skill ceiling has been lowered drastically and is now lower than many other competitive games.
I agree that it is by far the worst of the patches i've played.
Worse then the serverbrowser chance that killed wooza, worse then the healthbar. worse then the pingbar.
Since the release of 305 i`ve been unable to get a proper round of NS2.
On aliens you are boxed into spawn within 3 to 7 minutes.
On Marines you are boxing in the aliens within 3 to 7 Minutes without even trying.
At first i was wondering if there was a new aimbot out because of the way the Marines now decimate skulks.
Even in the rare cases when the Aliens were able to hold 2 hives and 3 to 4 nodes the whole game they still loose.
Before you go on the usual: subjective blablabla you are wrong spree:
Check the Wonitor stats of the servers vs. game Version.
You'll see:
Avarage roundtime has gone down
Marine winrate is up about 20%
Early game aliens were always at a disadvantage this change makes it borderline impossible for the aliens to even get to midgame unless they have a skill advantage of at least 300 ELO.
It's a complicated concept to understand, so I totally get how the misconception occurs.. but @Bicsum is correct.
Even if a change allowed every single marine to have 50% accuracy tomorrow.. the skill ceiling would still not be lowered because the ceiling is still 100% accuracy as it always has been.
Making it easier to reach the ceiling is the skill floor... whereas limiting what is possible would be an example of lowering the ceiling.
Well then again we have to agree to disagree unless you can provide an explanation from somewhere that isn't just "because I say so". Every first page result on google when searching skill floor vs skill ceiling seems to mirror what I said. Let's use MOBA heroes as a comparison for example since that's where the term is used a lot. A hero with a high skill ceiling takes MORE skill to reach that ceiling, a hero with a lower skill ceiling takes LESS skill to reach that ceiling. In NS2 it now takes LESS skill to shoot 100%, therefore the skill ceiling is LOWER than it used to be.
With your logic every MOBA hero has the same skill ceiling since that "100% perfect" execution is possible with all of them.
It doesn't work like that. You're changing the correlation the metric applies to.
When you're giving every player on the server an external aimbot, then you raise the potential effectiveness in terms of hitting to 100%, because every player has 100% skill through the aim bot.
When your game has a built in aim bot, then there is no spectrum at all. Everyone is equally effective in terms of shooting, no matter the skill.
If you compare NS2 shooting to other comp games shooting, then you can't really use the terms skill floor or ceiling, because they describe the effectiveness of a thing in one system. You can say that the shooting part in csgo is harder compared to NS2, because in CSGO you do not only have to aim, but also compensate for recoil, but that doesn't mean CSGO has a higher skill ceiling than ns2, because it is not what it describes.
Spot on, really neither of us are right or wrong since there is no real definition for the term. My argument is mostly that the way people use and understand this term is the latter (which in the end is all that matters). I'll stop talking about it now.
Then they really did delete that post. What the actual fuck. Apart from the title, that was the nicest bloody writing I've seen in days.
Is there a way for me to support your case from abroad?
@IronHorse we could debate what skill floor and ceiling is, but you can't deny that enlarging hitboxes makes it easier for every spectrum of players to hit their target. Soooo... making them bigger gets you nowhere in terms of skill distribution.
Btw, @Rautapalli got it right if we consider how the majority of people use the term. And since there is no official definition, I'd go with precedence.
What's important in this instance is to recognize that the ceiling in this case is 100% accuracy. Marines are not hitting 100% accuracy, they never have and probably never will.. it's an incredibly high ceiling.
Making a 15% accurate marine shoot 20% doesn't change the fact that the ceiling remains at 100%... it just lessens the skill gap between the floor and the ceiling.
OK, 100% can never be reached, we agree on that. Lets say the top players have around 60% accuracy.
Enlarging hitboxes still gives plenty of room for them to get 65% accuracy. And we are back to square one.
Sure, but that 100% accuracy ceiling remains in place, doesn't it?
It didn't suddenly get lowered to 70% as being the point where "you can no longer do anything that would make you better", right?
Therefore, the ceiling remains in place, and the floor is lowered.
Now if we wanted to talk about the skill curve instead... I'm more than willing to concede how that's changed. I just couldn't read another post saying that the ceiling is what was lowered.
That being said, I of course agree regarding the chasing tail analogy.. Aliens are weak in the early game and have been for a while, this doesn't help with that.
I think they fare just fine though mid to late game, especially given the pres changes.
Hopefully addressing the alien early game is the next step and the chasing of the tail ends?
By your logic, a game mechanic of pressing mouse1 to instantly kill all enemies would not lower the skill ceiling.
Also, when I first started reading this thread, I honestly believed it to be some kind of ironic joke (with the blatant controversy and ninja change). Congratulations to the devs for finally hitting the nail on the head with the community's trust in them. Trying to ascertain UWE's motivations is just as impossible as trying to with Tzeentch at this point.
For the entire duration of NS2, everyone's #1 complaint has been how huge the gap in skill is between a new player and even a mildly committed player. Anyone who tries to pick up this game gets ridiculously roflstomped by people that have been playing it for 10 years. Roflstomping is not what makes NS good!
How many threads have I been hearing "every game is a stack, I get a good round one out of every 10." I see at least one comment to that effect per day in these forums. This sort of change is the only thing that has a hope of fixing that! embrace it!
What makes NS2 great is the complexity of the combat and the strategy, not how difficult it is to aim effectively. Naturally, the current situation probably still needs some clever rebalancing, but it doesn't take away from any of the things that make NS great, and hopefully fixes everyone's #1 complaint.
It isn't a correct step to try to "balance" the game by effectively making bad marines better artificially and the almost-untouchable marine players even more untouchable. I would also call this "dumbing down" the game by making good aim matter less, i.e. lack of punishment for mistakes. The correct step is to make the bad marine players not bad... then again, realistically that's pretty difficult in an online game.
The more of these changes go in, the more the few remaining people who are "good" will continue playing, unless all there is are average-noobs in a muddy "game" where skill hardly matters and maybe you don't get "stacks" because it's impossible to stack or it doesn't matter as much. I would suggest that then not 1 out of 10 rounds will be good, zero out of 10 will be good.
Maybe there will be more players though... who knows I guess. So if you're going for numbers, maybe it's a good strat...
Like in any other games?
Looking at all those comments, this change shows no hope of fixing it unless I've missed something.
I wouldn't go for a hyperbola. If I had to pick what bothers me the most in this game, that definitely wouldn't be that #1 complaint.
You mothers keep saying how beautiful your disgusting kid is, but it really needs a good smack on its knee with a meat tenderizer in order to help him walk straight again. One smack is often not enough, because after fixing one part of his disgusting deformed leg, deficits in his other horrifying leg might emerge, but you mothers don't see this. You're like: "You hurt my child now it will never be able to walk again!!!"...
NS2 pre 250 didn't have legs at all. It was a torso standing in a puddle of shit, but look how many people defended it and threatened to leave, even though it was in so many ways terrible.
The former comp mod put knee and elbow guards on the game and strapped it on a rollator, but that didn't fix its problems, it just allowed it to walk for 2 meters, but it's a misery to watch (and to play).
To anyone who feels betrayed: just leave and check the game out later again. I've seen a lot of veterans coming back to the game lately, who enjoyed its current state. They come back open minded. They don't know that the hitbox increased by, idk, 10%. They don't know that the PRES flow was increased.
They expirience the game in its current state. They are happy that fade balls were fixed. They are happy that hitting in this game now works pretty much consistently.
I'm not saying the PDT does everything right, but at least they're trying to fix some unfun parts in this game, and that I am grateful for.
Congratulations, you have no idea what you are talking about and assume things you simply don't know. On top of that you are just wrong.
There were times when I havent played for months, and the only positive big changes by the PDT I see are the 3 tier upgrades (taken largely from compmod i think). Otherwise, its either neutral or just plain garbage without any holistic insight. Just patching here and there, let's see what happens
Aside:
http://steamcharts.com/app/4920#All
2016 january procuced an increase, which i account to the curiosity of players about the new dev team. But see the steady decline?
Are we talking about shooting between skulk legs, or delayed hitbox vs model?
If the former, then whatthehell, you should't be hitting the skulk if you shoot between its legs.
If the latter, then whatthehell, you're enlarging the hitboxes to hide hitreg issues
All this talk about floors and ceilings, cmon trixx or @Wake gif me a funny .gif please
Even though personally I don't think I would like that change^^
That would have impact everything, structures would need their values re-adjusted which in turn affects other alien abilities let alone how much faster it would be to kill marines.
Just git gud meph