Good Marine, Lazy Selfish Noob Marine
relsan
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3720Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3720Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">Commanders read too!</div> I've been getting really frustrated by the marines on my team that take their basic skills for granted so I'm gonna go through my life cycle as a marine. Hopefully I can clearly explain what separates in my mind a good marine from a lazy selfish noob marine.
Okay so its the beginning of the game and you spawn and you don't wanna be commander. What do you do?
#1 Watch the fricken door!
Please don't be dumb standing around the CC looking at the other marines going "Do you wanna be commander?" "Nah, do you wanna be?" "Nah, you?" "Nah" WATCH THE DOOR! WATCH THE FRICKEN DOOR! Start looking for that skulk rush because its coming and unless you're in a clan match, the armory probably won't be up before they get there.
Okay the commander has been chosen and he's droppin equipment. You start building a portal and 5 marines come to help you build it. What do you do?
#2 It only takes 1/3 of the marines to build stuff!
If there's already 2-3 marines building something, STEP AWAY FROM THE EQUIPMENT! There's no need for you to build too. WATCH THE FRICKEN DOOR! You might not believe this at first but its WAY more important to watch the door than to do anything else. Marines whine on the boards, we need to gimp skulks <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> We need to start with shotguns <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Noooooooo. 2/3 of the marines should be watchin the fricken door. That will stop any skulk rush.
Okay the commander has made some infantry portals, an armory, a turret factory, and enough turrets (4 or 5), to keep base camp safe for the time being. Suddenly he plops down an observatory. What do you do?
#3 Scout out empty hives ASAP!
Leave! YES THATS RIGHT! Leave the base without building anything else. You will be right back to build it. You know why? Because you are going hive hunting. It's very important to know where the initial hive is on the map and where the open ones are. Take a few marines with you as possible. THIS IS NOT A DEATHMATCH MISSION. You are only trying to stay alive long enough to get an idea where the aliens are and where they aren't. Some of you will find open hive spots. You should stay there, take the nearest resource and try to build an outpost.
Okay so you didn't find anything and you die. What do you do?
#4 Always look around base camp to build something before you leave.
See that observatory with the yellow circle that you left last time you went out? Build it NOW! Then leave. Building this way keeps marines from camping the marine start and believe me when I say that camping the marine start for too long leaves you with the Aliens-type scenario; you know, the one where everyone DIES!
Alright now you head out again and you find an empty hive. What do you do?
#5 Tell the commander you need supplies at the empty hive.
I've built and locked down entire hive spots with a lmg and 50 health, solo. And I'm gonna do it again TODAY! I of course get the help of my commander (listen up commanders) who will drop a resource chamber and then immeadiately a turret factory and some turrets afterwards. AND THEN THEY WILL DROP A PHASE GATE so that reinforcements can ensure that the hive is always locked down. A phase gate is the most important thing to have after the turrets are set up. After that if you wanna go crazy and drop an armory or observatory, knock yerself out big spender.
Now you've secured a hive and its possible the Kharaa have secured one as well. What do you do now?
#6 Meet up with as many marines as you can find and start locking down resources at KEY JUNCTIONS! Theres usually a group of marines doing this while others are shutting down empty hives so find them and meet up with them. STOP WAITING AROUND FOR WAYPOINTS! YOU SHOULD KNOW THE MAP BY NOW!!!
There are places on the map with resources that are more important than others because a) they cut off the main paths between hives or b) they are ideal for setting up sieges on nearby hives. As an example I'll use nancy since we been playing it a lot on lanvancouver a lot. On nancy marines usually set up shop in the mess hall because it separates the Subspace Array Interface Hive and the Port Engine Hive from the last hive. Next if you walk up the stairs is the Mother Interface area which is the PERFECT spot for a siege attack since it goes right through the adjacent wall and hits the hives.
Once you've locked down a hive and are successfully attacking another one, things can still be 50/50 but what counts is how you perform. So here's a few basic things that I think really separates the good marines from the lazy selfish noob marines:
#7 STOP ASKING FOR HEALTH!
I don't know how many times no matter where I am that a marine is constantly spamming "MEDPAK! MEDPAK! MEDPAK!" because he's about to die. SO WHAT! DIE ALREADY! Seriously you shouldn't need to ask for health because if you in the hot spot area where your team is pushing their force, the commander will be dropping health like he's the hand of god. I never ask for health but I get it a lot because I am always in the right place at the right time. THAT is how you ask for health. Be visible. Be where there commander needs you and trust me he will save your butt if you are in trouble. It is a BIG waste of time for a commander to go find you in some obscure part of the map or jump back to marine start because you got bit. I take on schools of skulks and fades with 12 health and I kill them because they DONT KNOW IM ABOUT TO DIE HAHAHAHA!! I die a lot yes but I kill a lot too...
#8 If you are about to die, pretend you are in the Russian Army (like everyone has been saying)
Let people know. "Hey everybody theres a HMG about to be freed up at the Mother Interface. Come and get it." If you are in a hot zone it might make some of those lame solo dmers come to help. You die, they pick up your gun, and the battle rages on. Thats the way it should be. But speaking of weapons.
#9 STOP ASKING FOR WEAPONS!
Seriously I sometimes go through entire games with just the lmg and I get more hives and outposts locked down than anyone. I'm not saying hmgs aren't crucial to winning, they are. But if you guys only have 100 resources, you better be a FRAG GOD asking for a weapon that expensive, and you probably are not. LISTEN UP COMMANDERS, when the resources are flowing around 200-300 start dropping the occasional hmg, ha, shotty, gl at base. Marines will see them and pick them up. And when they die, someone in their group will pick them up. Thats the way it should be. Having a long fricken line in front of the CC with marines waiting for the magic ha/hmg combo is just a waste of time. Good marines learn to play without all those frills so that when better armor and weapons do become available, they will be EVEN MORE LETHAL.
And finally a mix of the two above items. This one is for the commanders as much as the marines:
#10 Learn how to tell a good marine from a lazy selfish noob marine! It's easy!
If the marine is yellin on voice CONSTANTLY for health and/or a good weapon, you are listening to a lazy selfish noob marine! If the marine is reporting an empty hive, or nozzle, or asking for turrets and siege equipment, YOU ARE LISTENING TO A GOOD VERY VERY GOOOOOOOOD MARINE! Help him out and hey, drop some health and ammo for his trouble.
I know some of this is controversial but I think you all get the major point I'm making here. Be proactive! Be visible! If you do these things, commanders will be more apt to listen to you and you will be rewarded.
Okay so its the beginning of the game and you spawn and you don't wanna be commander. What do you do?
#1 Watch the fricken door!
Please don't be dumb standing around the CC looking at the other marines going "Do you wanna be commander?" "Nah, do you wanna be?" "Nah, you?" "Nah" WATCH THE DOOR! WATCH THE FRICKEN DOOR! Start looking for that skulk rush because its coming and unless you're in a clan match, the armory probably won't be up before they get there.
Okay the commander has been chosen and he's droppin equipment. You start building a portal and 5 marines come to help you build it. What do you do?
#2 It only takes 1/3 of the marines to build stuff!
If there's already 2-3 marines building something, STEP AWAY FROM THE EQUIPMENT! There's no need for you to build too. WATCH THE FRICKEN DOOR! You might not believe this at first but its WAY more important to watch the door than to do anything else. Marines whine on the boards, we need to gimp skulks <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> We need to start with shotguns <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> Noooooooo. 2/3 of the marines should be watchin the fricken door. That will stop any skulk rush.
Okay the commander has made some infantry portals, an armory, a turret factory, and enough turrets (4 or 5), to keep base camp safe for the time being. Suddenly he plops down an observatory. What do you do?
#3 Scout out empty hives ASAP!
Leave! YES THATS RIGHT! Leave the base without building anything else. You will be right back to build it. You know why? Because you are going hive hunting. It's very important to know where the initial hive is on the map and where the open ones are. Take a few marines with you as possible. THIS IS NOT A DEATHMATCH MISSION. You are only trying to stay alive long enough to get an idea where the aliens are and where they aren't. Some of you will find open hive spots. You should stay there, take the nearest resource and try to build an outpost.
Okay so you didn't find anything and you die. What do you do?
#4 Always look around base camp to build something before you leave.
See that observatory with the yellow circle that you left last time you went out? Build it NOW! Then leave. Building this way keeps marines from camping the marine start and believe me when I say that camping the marine start for too long leaves you with the Aliens-type scenario; you know, the one where everyone DIES!
Alright now you head out again and you find an empty hive. What do you do?
#5 Tell the commander you need supplies at the empty hive.
I've built and locked down entire hive spots with a lmg and 50 health, solo. And I'm gonna do it again TODAY! I of course get the help of my commander (listen up commanders) who will drop a resource chamber and then immeadiately a turret factory and some turrets afterwards. AND THEN THEY WILL DROP A PHASE GATE so that reinforcements can ensure that the hive is always locked down. A phase gate is the most important thing to have after the turrets are set up. After that if you wanna go crazy and drop an armory or observatory, knock yerself out big spender.
Now you've secured a hive and its possible the Kharaa have secured one as well. What do you do now?
#6 Meet up with as many marines as you can find and start locking down resources at KEY JUNCTIONS! Theres usually a group of marines doing this while others are shutting down empty hives so find them and meet up with them. STOP WAITING AROUND FOR WAYPOINTS! YOU SHOULD KNOW THE MAP BY NOW!!!
There are places on the map with resources that are more important than others because a) they cut off the main paths between hives or b) they are ideal for setting up sieges on nearby hives. As an example I'll use nancy since we been playing it a lot on lanvancouver a lot. On nancy marines usually set up shop in the mess hall because it separates the Subspace Array Interface Hive and the Port Engine Hive from the last hive. Next if you walk up the stairs is the Mother Interface area which is the PERFECT spot for a siege attack since it goes right through the adjacent wall and hits the hives.
Once you've locked down a hive and are successfully attacking another one, things can still be 50/50 but what counts is how you perform. So here's a few basic things that I think really separates the good marines from the lazy selfish noob marines:
#7 STOP ASKING FOR HEALTH!
I don't know how many times no matter where I am that a marine is constantly spamming "MEDPAK! MEDPAK! MEDPAK!" because he's about to die. SO WHAT! DIE ALREADY! Seriously you shouldn't need to ask for health because if you in the hot spot area where your team is pushing their force, the commander will be dropping health like he's the hand of god. I never ask for health but I get it a lot because I am always in the right place at the right time. THAT is how you ask for health. Be visible. Be where there commander needs you and trust me he will save your butt if you are in trouble. It is a BIG waste of time for a commander to go find you in some obscure part of the map or jump back to marine start because you got bit. I take on schools of skulks and fades with 12 health and I kill them because they DONT KNOW IM ABOUT TO DIE HAHAHAHA!! I die a lot yes but I kill a lot too...
#8 If you are about to die, pretend you are in the Russian Army (like everyone has been saying)
Let people know. "Hey everybody theres a HMG about to be freed up at the Mother Interface. Come and get it." If you are in a hot zone it might make some of those lame solo dmers come to help. You die, they pick up your gun, and the battle rages on. Thats the way it should be. But speaking of weapons.
#9 STOP ASKING FOR WEAPONS!
Seriously I sometimes go through entire games with just the lmg and I get more hives and outposts locked down than anyone. I'm not saying hmgs aren't crucial to winning, they are. But if you guys only have 100 resources, you better be a FRAG GOD asking for a weapon that expensive, and you probably are not. LISTEN UP COMMANDERS, when the resources are flowing around 200-300 start dropping the occasional hmg, ha, shotty, gl at base. Marines will see them and pick them up. And when they die, someone in their group will pick them up. Thats the way it should be. Having a long fricken line in front of the CC with marines waiting for the magic ha/hmg combo is just a waste of time. Good marines learn to play without all those frills so that when better armor and weapons do become available, they will be EVEN MORE LETHAL.
And finally a mix of the two above items. This one is for the commanders as much as the marines:
#10 Learn how to tell a good marine from a lazy selfish noob marine! It's easy!
If the marine is yellin on voice CONSTANTLY for health and/or a good weapon, you are listening to a lazy selfish noob marine! If the marine is reporting an empty hive, or nozzle, or asking for turrets and siege equipment, YOU ARE LISTENING TO A GOOD VERY VERY GOOOOOOOOD MARINE! Help him out and hey, drop some health and ammo for his trouble.
I know some of this is controversial but I think you all get the major point I'm making here. Be proactive! Be visible! If you do these things, commanders will be more apt to listen to you and you will be rewarded.
Comments
Commanders got to remember that taking hives early on is crucial. Besides there are all ways resours nodes at empty hives <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I was playing as comm yesterday and got one hive locked down and ha/hmg researched and distributed to my marines. Logically I told them to secure the area near one of the occupied hives in order to siege it. Guess what, the 4 marines with hmg/ha got taken out by 2 fades. The best part is that none of those fades got killed. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
This guide does help newbies to play better as a marine.
Still, good points, good post.
I can usually guess which hive they started at by how long the Skulk rush takes to appear combined with which direction it came from.
I generally don't ask for weapons if there is under 100 resources. Also if I get armor and a weapon and then get killed right away I usually won't ask for more stuff until i've died/respawned a few times with basic stuff, its not good to be constantly begging for expensive equipment then losing it over and over again. Its good to at least try to get your weapon back before it disappears, but they are gone just a few seconds too soon to get back normally.
The most important thing is to use common sense when making request. Never EVER spam for anything, it will just annoy everyone and you probably won't get what you want anyway. Even if you have voicecomm, use the radio commands to ask for health and ammo so the commander can jump to you and not waste time searching the map.
The "watch the doors" thing is very true. All too often i'll watch one door...then the entire mob of skulks will come from the other side and kill everyone before they can even fire a shot because no one else was watching the doors.
Ok there's a key element a lot of you are missing here. You say its a lot cheaper and easier for the commander to just scanner sweep a few places to find out where the hive spots are. You say that its a bad strat to scout out hives....
YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT!
#11 Hive location knowledge is not just for the commanders, its for marines too! DO NOT DEPEND ON THE COMMANDER TO TELL YOU WHERE EVERYTHING IS! DO NOT DEPEND ON HIM TO DIRECT YOUR EVERY MOVE! It is crucial for the la/lmg marines to help the reconnaissance effort! In real war its not the commanders that find the enemy, its the recons. Be a smart thinking marine, not a drone.
Commanders rarely brief troops on whats going on. We all know this. They usually just distribute orders. So the key is not just for the commander to know where the active hive spots are. YOU AS A MARINE NEED TO KNOW TOO! Sure its cheaper to do a scanner sweep and now the commander knows. But you don't know unless the commander says something or puts down a waypoint; and more often than not on pubs, they don't do that. And even if they did, if you miss the message the first time, you're screwed. If the commander puts down a waypoint at a hive, WOOHOO use it, but don't depend on that occurance. Be proactive. Help the commander out.
Besides, in my experience I usually find the hive spots before the commander does. The whole point of scouting out the hives on your own is so that you can report it to the commander. But when you do this whether its on voice or in team chat, NOW EVERYBODY SEES IT AND NOW EVERYBODY KNOWS! If you sit around waiting for the commander to tell you where the hive spots are, YOU ARE WASTING TIME! See, its all about starting a nice flow of communication from the troops and letting everyone know about the empty hive spot. Good commanders will appreciate this effort.
Like I said before, be proactive and go find hives. I don't know how many times I have reached an empty hive with no way point assistance or communication from the commander and as soon as I get there a RESOURCE TOWER PLOPS DOWN RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME because the commander and I are IN SYNC.
Listen up commanders if a marine finds an empty hive do him a favor and set up waypoints and get supplies over there because EVERYBODY KNOWS that securing a hive is THE MOST IMPORTANT OBJECTIVE in the early game. Ask the clans, ask the programmers, ask the play testers. They will all confirm this.
#12 When you get on a server in the middle of a battle, acquire INFORMATION, NOT WEAPONS!
When you get on a server in the middle of the game and you don't know whats going on, the best way to get up to speed is to take 2-3 mins to do a little exploring; but just 2-3. Get an idea of what the aliens are doing and what the marines are doing. Marine lives are cheap. They cost nothing, and respawn times are quick but weapons are not so cheap. I see a lot of noobs get on the server and immeadiately ask for weapons and then get themselves killed stumbling into a hot zone with no backup. Don't take expensive equipment when you are exploring; thats a BIG NO NO.
Also another thing I like to do when I first get on the server in the middle of the game is say "HEY WHERE ARE WE BUILDING???" Somebody will almost always pipe up and say "WE ARE OVER HERE!" Don't ask for a weapon. Meet up with the group and when somebody dies, take their weapon instead! It's cheap and efficient.
nothing sux more than having a res node, factory, then 2 turrets and 1 unfinished before the skulls comes and kills you, then the factory, then the other 3 turrets, then the res node
thats a crap load of res down the drain
if u drop down a phase gate, reinforcements will come very quickly.
if u can't manage to finish the phase gate, then you've lost a lot less than the above scenario
IMHO phase gates are the best weapon marines have. To bad the aliens got them too (ala movement chambers).
They don't really work the same...
IMHO phase gates are the best weapon marines have. To bad the aliens got them too (ala movement chambers).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which aren't even half as useful. Scrap that. Not even a fourth as useful. Then only warp you to the farthest active hive. With three hives it's possible to be unable to warp to the centermost hive.
nothing sux more than having a res node, factory, then 2 turrets and 1 unfinished before the skulls comes and kills you, then the factory, then the other 3 turrets, then the res node
thats a crap load of res down the drain
if u drop down a phase gate, reinforcements will come very quickly.
if u can't manage to finish the phase gate, then you've lost a lot less than the above scenario<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
#13 Resource Tower > Turrets > Phase Gates is the standard for building any outpost on public servers. It's the least risky option since its focus is to get an automated defense up ASAP.
Well theres a few reasons why I mentioned phase gates coming directly after the resource nozzle and the turrets.
The main reason is that its crucial that the hive outpost be self-sustaining ASAP, especially in the early game when you don't have access to more powerful weapons. Now it would be ideal to build the phase gate first if you are in a clan match and you guys have an actual plan to go as a grouped force and put all your resources on taking an early hive spot. But on public servers the marines are usually building in several places and so it's necessary to build with the assumption that you may not get any back up for a few minutes. If you build the phase gate first even if you get the phase gate up quickly, somebody still needs to build it at base, and in it time it takes for somebody to realize this and start building and THEN have marines actually use it, its possible a multitude of things could go wrong:
- The aliens could find you there, a lone marine sitting by a broken phase gate. All they have to do is kill you and the phase gate will go down just as quick.
- The commander could run out of resources. If it's early game and you ask for a phase gate instead while marines are asking for factories somewhere else, you could get passed up for crucial equipment. But if you ask for a resource and a factory first, the commander might think twice about allocating resources elsewhere and give them to you.
That's why if anything you'd want to get the factory up first. one factory and two turrets is all you need at first to keep a hive outpost safe from a few skulks. It's takes longer than a phase gate, yes, but after those items are up you can die and not worry about what's going to happen to the outpost in the time it takes you to come back. My personal feeling is that the factory should go even before the resource tower but having the resource tower built first can be a good thing too:
- It gives you leverage with the commander. He will be more willing to drop some equipment at a hive spot with a tower up and he might even send a few people over there to help
- Those extra resources ensure that you'll have enough rp to get the factory and the two turrets
So basically what I'm saying is that sure, in an ideal setting, phase gates should go first. But marines and aliens are unpredictables on pub servers. Turrets are not. Get them up first. Its a risky mission either way you decide to build so its best to get automated defenses up first. AUTOMATED DEFENSES WITH 2 TURRETS WILL KILL 5 GROUPED SKULKS. 5 marines MIGHT but its not certain. And even then, I'd rather have some turrets doing the job of those 5 marines that could be doing something elsewhere.
- turrets are fairly impotent, unless you have large numbers of them.
- a 'decent' alien team will attack a hive in force, as soon as they find marines in it.
- typically there is always a marine either in base, or about to spawn who can build a phase gate.
- reinforcing a hive is risky, often you have to walk across the whole map solo [if you intend to get there in time to do anything], and the aliens know which route you will take, and how to get behind you.
- 1 gorge building a few offense towers can completely screw up reinforcing [if you stop to shoot the towers, you are premium skulk-food].
I'm not sure about build order, but the phase gate is far more useful than the turrets.
[edit: added this]
- the #1 priority for a lot of the game is preventing the kharaa from getting 3 hives, and the easiest way of doing that is defending one of them. e.g. This is *exactly* what marines should be doing.
- 2 turrets will NOT kill 5 skulks. I don't care where you put the turrets, you are not going to take out 5 grouped skulks with half a brain between them.
- the skulks do NOT have to take out the turrets anyway, if they can hold off marines from reinforcing the hive, they can destroy it at their leisure. [e.g. wait for fades, send a lerk, use a gorge with offense towers/whatever/repeatedly kamikaze them] (1 skulk can usually solo 2 turrets anyway)
I think the 'right' solution probably depends on the hive, commander, marines, and the kharaa team.
e.g.
- the sewer hive in ns_caged just plain sucks for defence - maybe a phase gate is better here? maintenance in eclipse seems to work well with turrets?
- some marines can shoot a skulk in 1 lmg burst, others use 3 clips.
- some commanders relocate the base/build seige early/use lots of medikits early
- some aliens don't defend the 3rd hive, others attack as soon as you enter, others wait until building commences then attack.
[As a skulk, I like attacking the early marine hive, and will continue attacking until it has a phase gate properly defended, or the hive is ours]
Yes.
Ok, maybe that's overstating it a bit, but without a Phase Gate all your other defences are essentially useless. A lone Phase Gate is a deathtrap as marines wandering in will be automatically surrounded by aliens. Turrets alone are useless as without marines backup they are easy Skulk food in numbers less than a dozen. A great way to defend is to make sure the gate is covered by sentries so that the Kharaa can't just sit there pounding it. When trouble pops up, send your marines through the gate.
These are my assumptions: The ideal minimal outpost has the following: 1 phase gate, 1 turret factory and 2 turrets.
Ok, when setting up an outpost there are four cases that can occur:
1.) You get there, and can build yor stuff with no interference. This case is moot, the build order doesn't matter.
2.) You get there, and are attacked after having built 2 structures, but die.
3.) Attacked after 2 buildings but live.
4.) You get there, and are attacked after having built 3 structures, and die.
Here is the math:
1 turret fact = 25 res
1 turret = 19 res
1 phase gate = 20 res
Turret fact + 1 turret = 44 res points
Turret fact = 2 turrets = 63 res points
Turret fact + 2 phase gates = 65 res points
2 Phase gates = 40 res points
Ok so that's the math we'll use, so let's address case 2.
Let's say you go (turret fact, turret)
Say you die after only building 1 turret. 25+19 = 44. They can now get behind the TF and chomp chomp. So now you're 44 credits in the hole at the very least. Chances are they will kill the turret fact and turrets before help can arrive.
Now lets look at same case but building a phase portal first. The phase portal costs 20 res, so if your marines get killed building that, you lose 20 instead of 25. (Note: If they got killed building the phase portal they would have gotten killed building the turret fact and turrets.)
You still have to build the phase portal at base (another 20 res), so you're up to 40 but that phase at base will not be destroyed so next time it's only 20 at each outpost.
So in case 2 we have:
44 - 20 = 24 res points saved by getting phase portal first.
Case 3:
Same situation, exept if you go phase gate first you can bring in friends to help that guy, as opposed to him being isolated still.
Case 4:
If you get a turret fact and 2 turrets you are pretty safe. Thats 63 points. With bad turret placement you stand to lost 63 points.
Phase, Phase, Turret Fact = 65 res points. If you are attacked at this point you're pretty screwed but you have that phase portal to get back there and try and take out those skulks. You stand to lose 45 res points.
63 - 45 = 18 res points saved by getting phase gate first (BUT your base is more likely to survive with 2 well placed turret, so you COULD lose 45 res by going phase first).
So here are my conclusions:
If you don't think you have a lot of time build the phase gate first. If you think you can get 3 buildings up quickly go for turret factory. If you have to build 3 turrets to protect your base (i.e. 4 buildings) it will always be better to go phase gate first.
No matter what, it is cheaper to go phase gate first.
I personally think phase gate first is way more useful.
Anyways, hope that analysis helps you decide what's the best order to build in.
In the long term it's definitely crucial turrets are set up. I think it all depends on the manpower you have at your disposal. If you came to the empty hive spot with 5 marines initially and you guys are all focused on taking it, a phase gate MIGHT be good; but then you could probably set up turrets even faster and in fact thats what happens most of the time on pubs. If theres just two of you, its better to get the turrets up because you might not be able to convince more people to come help. You all know how noobs are on pub servers. That's why turrets and the resource node are usually built first. Also your calculations don't weigh in the resource tower which is usually built first anyway and helps to shave off the costs of building equipment at your outpost.
I think it shows that building the phase first is always cheaper, and in the unlikely even that your 5 guys get taken out they can get back to the hot spot right away.
I think I understand your opinion, I just have a different view onthe subject.
When we get marine vs. marine combat we'll have to test our theories out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's not so bad when you have ha/hmg going through the gate, but early in the game when your a la/lmg its very risky. That's why most commanders attempt to set up the resource chamber and factory first. Even if the aliens kill the marines it takes a while to eat through a resource tower and a factory. Eventually the marines will be able to get the turrets up. Once that happens the phase gate comes in. Thats not theory, thats experience.
I'm not speculating about this. I'm regurgitating a lot of what I see works on the field. Quite often in warfare you find that the numbers you write down on paper don't work out on the battlefield and things go wrong. The method I've mentioned is not perfect but its tried and true on the battlefield. I'm not saying your method won't work either, I just feel its a little pessimistic. It seems like you're more worried about rps than securing the outpost and that subtle change in focus can effect your success.
And for those who are bored with this thread here's a hot girl to look at.
<img src='http://www.ascotia.com/upload/victoria_silvstedt_4_468.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
2-3 people sat in bsae and kept whining for mines,blackmailing me with "you dont give me mines,im not moving to the waypoint" and threatening to eject me.The rest of the team ran around the map,with only 2 people going to the waypoint where they got owned by a group of skulks.Repeat till the aliens get 2 hives and fades.....
Please do not sit in base begging for stuff.
At the beginning I usually build a couple of spawns (2), armory, a turret factory and TRY to build sentries to keep aliens from rushing main base and to allow my marines to move forward. I can't usually place more than 1 turret, because in the servers I play, there's only 99 resources at the beginning. Armory + 2 spawns + turret factory + sentry = 99 RP. The income is 3 RP/cycle (I think) and if you aim for a hive, your going to lose some marines and it will take some time before they get there. If some manage to get past the rushing aliens, you need 85 RP to build POOR (1 turret factory + 2 sentries + resource tower) defence, which can usually be overwhelmed by a couple of skulks (or even ONE skulk!) who both rush the base and put the turret factory down. 85 RP is a lot at the beginning so I've usually been forced to take a couple of undefended nozzles before I aim for the hive. Sometimes I'm lucky, the aliens don't destroy my new resource towers, I manage to lead my men to the hive and can start constructing. Most of the time I'm not lucky, most of my men are butchered by 2-3 skulks (even when in teams of 5), my newly built, undefended resource towers are ripped down and I've lost a lot of resources for nothing. Even more often main base is being rushed, because I can't afford to build even 3 sentries (worth 57 RP) to main. So my questions are these: where do you get resources to build good (5-6 sentries) defences at the beginning without having to wait 20 minutes and having your men sit at main base guarding and doing nothing? Do you head for nearby nozzles and hope your lucky enough so the aliens won't notice and take em down? Do you go for the hive and tell your men to sit there hoping your main base isn't rushed while you wait for resources to place a resource tower?
I'd really need some good tips or a good guide on "How To Get Enough Resources", not these overambitious, idealistic "Oh yeah, go for the hive 1000m away and build a turret factory, resource tower, 6 turrets , phaseports and observatory to main base and blaa, blaa with 0 RP"-guides.