As much as I want better tutorials, players don't use them unless they are forced. You can't teach those who don't want to learn. It is very frustrating given how the PDT is trying to improve accessibility.
As much as I want better tutorials, players don't use them unless they are forced. You can't teach those who don't want to learn. It is very frustrating given how the PDT is trying to improve accessibility.
Nah, you have to create good incentive.
- don't call it tutorials (mini-games?)
- each shold focus on a particular skill, rather than a single encompassing one (gorge racer?)
- have a scoreboard
As much as I want better tutorials, players don't use them unless they are forced. You can't teach those who don't want to learn. It is very frustrating given how the PDT is trying to improve accessibility.
Should we care about people not willing to learn the game?
As much as I want better tutorials, players don't use them unless they are forced. You can't teach those who don't want to learn. It is very frustrating given how the PDT is trying to improve accessibility.
Should we care about people not willing to learn the game?
To some degree, definetaly.
If they are ignorant, then no.
Otherwise, give them proper tools. And the word "tutorial" deters most players... "hey i dont need that, im better than that"
Simply renaming it would attract more people, methinks
I do not care because I do not want to play with people who have no interest in learning the game.
I think it would be best if the game catered to both crowds, and had a proper high skill level play system of some sort. A way to segregate all the ignorant casuals who don't want to learn, that don't want to play with you, nor you want to play with them.
I do not care because I do not want to play with people who have no interest in learning the game.
I think it would be best if the game catered to both crowds, and had a proper high skill level play system of some sort. A way to segregate all the ignorant casuals who don't want to learn, that don't want to play with you, nor you want to play with them.
There could be 2 click here button choices. One button is "LEARN TO PLAY NS2" the other button is "PLAY COUNTERSTRIKE NOW".
Given that even among veterans, the average hive skill is fairly low of ~1300. The fact that the majority of players are that low leads me to believe the game is inaccessible. I think we all agree the game is inaccessible. As I understand it, there are two paths in which to improve accessibility. 1) Make it easier to learn. 2) Make it easier to play.
Making the game easier to play is cheaper to implement, implemented faster, less risky, but has a lower potential return on player retention.
Or, the hardware requirement causes low fps which impacts the player skill. Several of these vets have good strat/positioning but can´t react properly.
Best way to teach people things like ambush tactics, dodging, etc. is through mini-games and rewards. Most of the "casuals" NEED a symbol of how "good" they are in the game. Weather you agree with it or not, most players LOVE incentives.
In stead of more tutorials, make challenges that simulate common scenarios in the game and award progressive in-game badges or skins (all cosmetic ofc) as a reward for getting to a high level
Example:
Skulk biting an RT
- You are a skulk
- You beat the level once the RT is destroyed, or all enemies are dead
- Marine bot enters the room to stop you shortly after damaging the RT
- Each time you destroy the RT, the level resets, and the marine is buffed with better upgrades and equipment
- Eventually becomes unwinnable due to overwhelming numbers and tech vs a single skulk
*Provide tips for completing waves like:
- Try ambushing in stead of direct confrontation
- Try to keep one Marine behind the other to reduce incoming damage
- Use parasite and watch for the enemies to reload before moving in
Other Scenarios:
- Lerk/Fade fighting JPs
- JP fighting lerks/fades
- Gorge defending a gorge fort (to build good hydra and clog placement)
tl/dr;
Design challenges that simulate the most challenging parts of the game, and reward players who complete them with eye-candy
PS: I think there is already a mod for something like this? could this be adapted to create these Challenges (aka. interactive tutorials)
Also: sorry if anything here has already been said, been out of the NS2 loop for a while
twilitebluebug stalkerJoin Date: 2003-02-04Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2016
Wall jumping needs its own distinct sound effect, so new players who perform it by accident notice it. The current speed boost from one wall jump feels barely noticeable to the untrained skulk.
(Perhaps the minimum speed from a standing wall jump needs to be raised, so new players instantly notice it. It currently produces less speed than simply running directly off a wall.)
Better still, give Skulks a minor speed boost to jumps from the ground (even just 10%) and lower the threshold of the growling to positively reinforce this.
These suggestions have been around for years. It's not rocket science. Once new Skulk players figure out the basics of wall jumping, I guarantee you that they will get off the floor in no time.
Training new Skulks with "mini games" won't work if the player skill gap in a game is too large. When performed by a novice, dodging and ambushing have very limited effectiveness against experienced players. IMO they need to be reinforced through "stepping stone" game mechanics and balance. For instance, one problem is Marines without jetpacks still dodge too well against Skulks, undermining the value of Skulk ambushes.
"Learning" is only fun when the lessons feel like they work. Unfortunately, the skill gap in pub games had been too great in the past (seems like it has shrunk recently), as if you were taught addition and subtraction while others are playing with quadratics.
As much as I want better tutorials, players don't use them unless they are forced. You can't teach those who don't want to learn. It is very frustrating given how the PDT is trying to improve accessibility.
That's the number #1 issue with gamers of today, too lazy, too fat, grown complacent over handheld mechanics. There is only so much PDT can do.
Some may agree some may not, Players now adays need to feel rewarded for there play, even if they die over and over again, the days of "Play, Die, Learn, Repeat" are over, alot of games are really simple at what they do, but can still be very hard to master.
So with even that, getting players to learn this game, something like challenges (but really they are TuT) that reward players for doing them with either a nice new badge (that can be 3-4 levels?) even a slight change in the model (Skulk challenge, scars?) so that players will do them, and feel they gain something other than knowledge, as it stands now, most of todays gamers feel that once they have played one game, they can play any.
Create a simple level system that allows and shows a players progression that also rewards them,
Lets face it, today is all about what a player will gain if they do X and Y.
As others keep saying, you can change the balance right down to we have super highspeed, tiny skulks with massive hitboxes, but players will still have to learn.
I do not care because I do not want to play with people who have no interest in learning the game.
I think it would be best if the game catered to both crowds, and had a proper high skill level play system of some sort. A way to segregate all the ignorant casuals who don't want to learn, that don't want to play with you, nor you want to play with them.
Nordic, it is NOT the definition of a casual that he doesn't want to learn a game. Stop seeing an elitism here when there is none.
People who are not willing to learn a game are the people who are not interested in the game itself. Not only is it very unfun to play with them for everyone else but also they won't be around for long because thy are Not interested in the game right from the start.
If tutorials aren't the way to go then why not tiered achievements of a sort...
Add in a stats screen (the x window that shows last life accuracy would be a good place) that keeps track of things like...
- how many extractors/harvesters you destroy in a round (also how many you save or weld/heal)
- how many walljumps you can chain together without losing speed
- how many marines you successfully ambush in a round (kill within x amount of time shown on minimap probably the best way to do this)
- How many times in a round you get a kill while near teammates (same room)
Etc... These would function somewhat like challenges in CoD (run x number of miles, kill x number of enemies using x weapon etc) both helping new players learn mechanics (both hidden and not) while giving them something to keep them hooked playing (for those obsessed with advancement and leveling)
Obviously have them open ended also, so you can't ever "complete" all the challenges. There would always be another tier.
I do not care because I do not want to play with people who have no interest in learning the game.
I think it would be best if the game catered to both crowds, and had a proper high skill level play system of some sort. A way to segregate all the ignorant casuals who don't want to learn, that don't want to play with you, nor you want to play with them.
Nordic, it is NOT the definition of a casual that he doesn't want to learn a game. Stop seeing an elitism here when there is none.
People who are not willing to learn a game are the people who are not interested in the game itself. Not only is it very unfun to play with them for everyone else but also they won't be around for long because thy are Not interested in the game right from the start.
I was actually not trying to pull an elitism card. I really think segregation of skill levels would be a good thing. We don't have enough players to really do it though. Rookie only servers were made to segregate new players, and those servers have 65% of the games.
The next best skill level to separate is the highest level of skill. It is the next group that is in most need for themselves and others of being segregated. This is true now more than ever with the competitive side of the game dead.
I really think a voluntary system of play for the higher skill levels would make the game better if we had the player population to support it. The last successful high skill server I saw was the no rookies pub in NA. We don't even have that now.
On a related note of interest in learning the game. I would argue that the majority of players including myself have no interest in learning the game more than we already have. I get yelled at fairly frequently by some 2500+ hive skill player that I don't know the game, and I have an ~1800 hive skill with 2400 hours in the game. I know I could get better, but I truly don't want to because it is already a struggle to play with lower skilled players. The average player has a 1250 hive skill. I doubt they don't have any interest in getting better.
Teach a man how to play, and he'll never floorskulk anymore.
Goodluck with that.
Let me know when you find a way to teach the majority of new players effectively.
Until then.. it's just rhetoric that's ignoring reality, sadly.
Well, like I've said a million times already. You can start with at least including an explanation of how to walljump in the friggin alien tutorial. Oh, I think I can hear the clunky cogs of the PDT hivemind rattling away already:"No, no, that's too much work, and the sort of people we're after don't play tutorials anyway. Let's keep it a hidden mechanic and just boost floorspeed instead. Then we'll ask everyone for feedback to show how much we care about the community, but in reality just ignore it all."
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
edited August 2016
How about this:
Change the sound a bit like twiliteblue mentioned to give new players more feedback about an successfull walljump.
On top give visual feedback when you are faster (a bit blurry)
And implement something like this:
A "jump vision" with red marked parts on the walls. A small interactive tutorial could do this ingame to teach new players the basic idea behind the walljump mechanic.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
@Ironhorse and @neoken
I shall once again throw up my, perhaps mad idea of training tutorials / in game training.
Hallucination like lifeforms moving in front of you showing how its done. Optional, toggle.
Waypoints and all.
Either make it AI which can do it on the fly, or script good portions of certain maps, the sky is the limit.
How many games do not use a holographic example of what the hell you are supposed to be doing? I lost count.. lets roll.
>disclaimer, dc has no skills whatsoever to implement any part of above plan<
I think bringing back unintrusive tutorial vids during respawn would probably be the most economical way of conveying knowledge. Respawn time in ns2 can be comparatively long. If each of them concentrates on a single concept, like walljumping, they could be very effective. Most importantly they don't require you to not play the game, they make use of down time, and they can be used to spoon feed mechanics one at a time.
If tutorials aren't the way to go then why not tiered achievements of a sort...
Add in a stats screen (the x window that shows last life accuracy would be a good place) that keeps track of things like...
- how many extractors/harvesters you destroy in a round (also how many you save or weld/heal)
- how many walljumps you can chain together without losing speed
- how many marines you successfully ambush in a round (kill within x amount of time shown on minimap probably the best way to do this)
- How many times in a round you get a kill while near teammates (same room)
Etc... These would function somewhat like challenges in CoD (run x number of miles, kill x number of enemies using x weapon etc) both helping new players learn mechanics (both hidden and not) while giving them something to keep them hooked playing (for those obsessed with advancement and leveling)
Obviously have them open ended also, so you can't ever "complete" all the challenges. There would always be another tier.
To add to that have a counter pop up each time you advance a achievement/challenge...
Having such a counter pop up would effectively teach new players mechanics (like wall jumping - first jump off a wall would bring up the counter, which would make them want to do it again)
Plus it pulls off that casualized "CoD/OW" thing the devs are obsessed with, without actually dumbing down the game any (like some of the other recent changes)
Rookies learn easier = Easier to get up off that skill floor = More player retention = A win win solution.
Change the sound a bit like twiliteblue mentioned to give new players more feedback about an successfull walljump.
On top give visual feedback when you are faster (a bit blurry)
And implement something like this:
A "jump vision" with red marked parts on the walls. A small interactive tutorial could do this ingame to teach new players the basic idea behind the walljump mechanic.
Had this idea a while ago not sure how feasable it is, but basically similarly to the bite aid /melee range indicator (alien vision mod by Cr4zy) but for walljumping,
giving visual cue of skulk-wall distance by coloring close enough walls with growing intensity
Teach a man how to play, and he'll never floorskulk anymore.
Goodluck with that.
Let me know when you find a way to teach the majority of new players effectively.
Until then.. it's just rhetoric that's ignoring reality, sadly.
Well, like I've said a million times already. You can start with at least including an explanation of how to walljump in the friggin alien tutorial. "
Great idea.. now roughly half of new players still can't be taught, even despite it being quasi forced. (not that the walljumping portion wouldn't be an optional tutorial, where it'd probably enjoy 10% usage)
What were your ideas for the other hundreds of mechanics? A tutorial for each one that won't be played?
It's like you're just ignoring pragmatic realities and yet continuing to suggest ineffective things anyways..
But I guess simplistic one sentence replies that sound good on paper are all that matters around here. No need for nuance, realistic outcomes, or alternative methods to enter the discussion. "Make NS2 great again" right?
@MoFo1 I like the idea of "challenges" in game, so long as its not obscuring or annoying and one can opt out.
@MoFo1 I like the idea of "challenges" in game, so long as its not obscuring or annoying and one can opt out.
Well hopefully they would allow us to choose whether to show that part of the UI. (the counter pop up) but as for the "challenges" themselves, they'd simply be tracked under the stats menu you can check while waiting to respawn, and if you didn't care about them, you'd never have to look.
Teach a man how to play, and he'll never floorskulk anymore.
Goodluck with that.
Let me know when you find a way to teach the majority of new players effectively.
Until then.. it's just rhetoric that's ignoring reality, sadly.
Well, like I've said a million times already. You can start with at least including an explanation of how to walljump in the friggin alien tutorial. "
Great idea.. now roughly half of new players still can't be taught, even despite it being quasi forced. (not that the walljumping portion wouldn't be an optional tutorial, where it'd probably enjoy 10% usage)
What were your ideas for the other hundreds of mechanics? A tutorial for each one that won't be played?
It's like you're just ignoring pragmatic realities and yet continuing to suggest ineffective things anyways..
But I guess simplistic one sentence replies that sound good on paper are all that matters around here. No need for nuance, realistic outcomes, or alternative methods to enter the discussion. "Make NS2 great again" right?
@MoFo1 I like the idea of "challenges" in game, so long as its not obscuring or annoying and one can opt out.
Wow. Ok, so I'm suggesting inffective things? I'm just someone who makes simplistic one sentence replies in your eyes now? Comparing me to Trump? And I'm the foolish one?
For years now all I did was give constructive feedback. Even now, despite the blatant cynicism that's grown on me (you reap what you sow), I still make a valid point. The fact that essential things like proper lifeform movement are not even deemed important enough to be explained ingame says enough. I won't bother with this discussion any further, not because I think it's futile (because it's always been futile to give any feedback here apparently), but because I feel like I'm starting to lose my mind trying to fight for something this basic, as if keeping these mechanics hidden are not an issue for accessibility...
Comments
Nah, you have to create good incentive.
- don't call it tutorials (mini-games?)
- each shold focus on a particular skill, rather than a single encompassing one (gorge racer?)
- have a scoreboard
Should we care about people not willing to learn the game?
To some degree, definetaly.
If they are ignorant, then no.
Otherwise, give them proper tools. And the word "tutorial" deters most players... "hey i dont need that, im better than that"
Simply renaming it would attract more people, methinks
There could be 2 click here button choices. One button is "LEARN TO PLAY NS2" the other button is "PLAY COUNTERSTRIKE NOW".
Or, the hardware requirement causes low fps which impacts the player skill. Several of these vets have good strat/positioning but can´t react properly.
In stead of more tutorials, make challenges that simulate common scenarios in the game and award progressive in-game badges or skins (all cosmetic ofc) as a reward for getting to a high level
Example:
- You are a skulk
- You beat the level once the RT is destroyed, or all enemies are dead
- Marine bot enters the room to stop you shortly after damaging the RT
- Each time you destroy the RT, the level resets, and the marine is buffed with better upgrades and equipment
- Eventually becomes unwinnable due to overwhelming numbers and tech vs a single skulk
*Provide tips for completing waves like:
- Try ambushing in stead of direct confrontation
- Try to keep one Marine behind the other to reduce incoming damage
- Use parasite and watch for the enemies to reload before moving in
Other Scenarios:
- Lerk/Fade fighting JPs
- JP fighting lerks/fades
- Gorge defending a gorge fort (to build good hydra and clog placement)
Design challenges that simulate the most challenging parts of the game, and reward players who complete them with eye-candy
PS: I think there is already a mod for something like this? could this be adapted to create these Challenges (aka. interactive tutorials)
Also: sorry if anything here has already been said, been out of the NS2 loop for a while
(Perhaps the minimum speed from a standing wall jump needs to be raised, so new players instantly notice it. It currently produces less speed than simply running directly off a wall.)
Better still, give Skulks a minor speed boost to jumps from the ground (even just 10%) and lower the threshold of the growling to positively reinforce this.
These suggestions have been around for years. It's not rocket science. Once new Skulk players figure out the basics of wall jumping, I guarantee you that they will get off the floor in no time.
Training new Skulks with "mini games" won't work if the player skill gap in a game is too large. When performed by a novice, dodging and ambushing have very limited effectiveness against experienced players. IMO they need to be reinforced through "stepping stone" game mechanics and balance. For instance, one problem is Marines without jetpacks still dodge too well against Skulks, undermining the value of Skulk ambushes.
"Learning" is only fun when the lessons feel like they work. Unfortunately, the skill gap in pub games had been too great in the past (seems like it has shrunk recently), as if you were taught addition and subtraction while others are playing with quadratics.
That's the number #1 issue with gamers of today, too lazy, too fat, grown complacent over handheld mechanics. There is only so much PDT can do.
So with even that, getting players to learn this game, something like challenges (but really they are TuT) that reward players for doing them with either a nice new badge (that can be 3-4 levels?) even a slight change in the model (Skulk challenge, scars?) so that players will do them, and feel they gain something other than knowledge, as it stands now, most of todays gamers feel that once they have played one game, they can play any.
Create a simple level system that allows and shows a players progression that also rewards them,
Lets face it, today is all about what a player will gain if they do X and Y.
As others keep saying, you can change the balance right down to we have super highspeed, tiny skulks with massive hitboxes, but players will still have to learn.
Nordic, it is NOT the definition of a casual that he doesn't want to learn a game. Stop seeing an elitism here when there is none.
People who are not willing to learn a game are the people who are not interested in the game itself. Not only is it very unfun to play with them for everyone else but also they won't be around for long because thy are Not interested in the game right from the start.
Add in a stats screen (the x window that shows last life accuracy would be a good place) that keeps track of things like...
- how many extractors/harvesters you destroy in a round (also how many you save or weld/heal)
- how many walljumps you can chain together without losing speed
- how many marines you successfully ambush in a round (kill within x amount of time shown on minimap probably the best way to do this)
- How many times in a round you get a kill while near teammates (same room)
Etc... These would function somewhat like challenges in CoD (run x number of miles, kill x number of enemies using x weapon etc) both helping new players learn mechanics (both hidden and not) while giving them something to keep them hooked playing (for those obsessed with advancement and leveling)
Obviously have them open ended also, so you can't ever "complete" all the challenges. There would always be another tier.
Seriously tho devs think about all things that make cod feel cod or overwatch feel overwatch and throw them as far you can from our ns2.
stop copying popular features and use your brain to make NS2 feel like better NS2 while remaining true to the original game design.
I was actually not trying to pull an elitism card. I really think segregation of skill levels would be a good thing. We don't have enough players to really do it though. Rookie only servers were made to segregate new players, and those servers have 65% of the games.
The next best skill level to separate is the highest level of skill. It is the next group that is in most need for themselves and others of being segregated. This is true now more than ever with the competitive side of the game dead.
I really think a voluntary system of play for the higher skill levels would make the game better if we had the player population to support it. The last successful high skill server I saw was the no rookies pub in NA. We don't even have that now.
On a related note of interest in learning the game. I would argue that the majority of players including myself have no interest in learning the game more than we already have. I get yelled at fairly frequently by some 2500+ hive skill player that I don't know the game, and I have an ~1800 hive skill with 2400 hours in the game. I know I could get better, but I truly don't want to because it is already a struggle to play with lower skilled players. The average player has a 1250 hive skill. I doubt they don't have any interest in getting better.
Let me know when you find a way to teach the majority of new players effectively.
Until then.. it's just rhetoric that's ignoring reality, sadly.
Well, like I've said a million times already. You can start with at least including an explanation of how to walljump in the friggin alien tutorial. Oh, I think I can hear the clunky cogs of the PDT hivemind rattling away already:"No, no, that's too much work, and the sort of people we're after don't play tutorials anyway. Let's keep it a hidden mechanic and just boost floorspeed instead. Then we'll ask everyone for feedback to show how much we care about the community, but in reality just ignore it all."
Change the sound a bit like twiliteblue mentioned to give new players more feedback about an successfull walljump.
On top give visual feedback when you are faster (a bit blurry)
And implement something like this:
A "jump vision" with red marked parts on the walls. A small interactive tutorial could do this ingame to teach new players the basic idea behind the walljump mechanic.
I shall once again throw up my, perhaps mad idea of training tutorials / in game training.
Hallucination like lifeforms moving in front of you showing how its done. Optional, toggle.
Waypoints and all.
Either make it AI which can do it on the fly, or script good portions of certain maps, the sky is the limit.
How many games do not use a holographic example of what the hell you are supposed to be doing? I lost count.. lets roll.
>disclaimer, dc has no skills whatsoever to implement any part of above plan<
Ok @Ironhorse let me just quote myself
To add to that have a counter pop up each time you advance a achievement/challenge...
Having such a counter pop up would effectively teach new players mechanics (like wall jumping - first jump off a wall would bring up the counter, which would make them want to do it again)
Plus it pulls off that casualized "CoD/OW" thing the devs are obsessed with, without actually dumbing down the game any (like some of the other recent changes)
Rookies learn easier = Easier to get up off that skill floor = More player retention = A win win solution.
Had this idea a while ago not sure how feasable it is, but basically similarly to the bite aid /melee range indicator (alien vision mod by Cr4zy) but for walljumping,
giving visual cue of skulk-wall distance by coloring close enough walls with growing intensity
Great idea.. now roughly half of new players still can't be taught, even despite it being quasi forced. (not that the walljumping portion wouldn't be an optional tutorial, where it'd probably enjoy 10% usage)
What were your ideas for the other hundreds of mechanics? A tutorial for each one that won't be played?
It's like you're just ignoring pragmatic realities and yet continuing to suggest ineffective things anyways..
But I guess simplistic one sentence replies that sound good on paper are all that matters around here. No need for nuance, realistic outcomes, or alternative methods to enter the discussion. "Make NS2 great again" right?
@MoFo1 I like the idea of "challenges" in game, so long as its not obscuring or annoying and one can opt out.
We should abuse our rookies and abuse each other. We need to tell each other how shit everyone is and how I'm the best player in the world.
This kind of trash talk commits you into playing well because if you don't, you get egg on your face.
It works in CSGO, DOTA, and COD and you get a lot of players in those games and a lot of good players too!
Well hopefully they would allow us to choose whether to show that part of the UI. (the counter pop up) but as for the "challenges" themselves, they'd simply be tracked under the stats menu you can check while waiting to respawn, and if you didn't care about them, you'd never have to look.
Wow. Ok, so I'm suggesting inffective things? I'm just someone who makes simplistic one sentence replies in your eyes now? Comparing me to Trump? And I'm the foolish one?
For years now all I did was give constructive feedback. Even now, despite the blatant cynicism that's grown on me (you reap what you sow), I still make a valid point. The fact that essential things like proper lifeform movement are not even deemed important enough to be explained ingame says enough. I won't bother with this discussion any further, not because I think it's futile (because it's always been futile to give any feedback here apparently), but because I feel like I'm starting to lose my mind trying to fight for something this basic, as if keeping these mechanics hidden are not an issue for accessibility...