IeptBarakatThe most difficult name to speak ingame.Join Date: 2009-07-10Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
I didn't say we need more biomass, of course that makes no sense. What I am saying is that biomass should be made more apparent to players as it plays an important role in the game's balance and the progression of a round, which most veterans should have figured out by now.
it plays an important role in the game's balance and the progression of a round,
thats why it should be removed. why ? because linearity. Im not gonna expand more on what I mean by that unless someone asks me to whilst being genuinely intrested in discussion.
Ok now this thread has started to shift away from removing unnecessary bloat to changing gameplay direction.
I clearly was not able to communicate my point effectively, but I predicted this thread would go something like this.
My point was that the line of thought this thread is bringing us on can lead to unexpected results.
Some may not see infestation, power nodes, or biomass as bloat but there are those that do. Nothing in the OP confined the scope of this thread to small changes. Anything and everything is fair game because anything and everything is within what the OP asked. That includes gameplay direction.
from removing unnecessary bloat to changing gameplay direction.
Thats making 2 wrong assumptions you like those dont you.
1 Removing biomass is a big game changer.
Its not. Its the very definition of a filler mechanic like advanced armory, removing it would mean upgrades would still be linked to a number of hive and every upgrade would cost a little bit more to account for the removed cost of biomass.
2 Removing other stuff like.. leap, drifter abilities, arcs?? is not a big deal? according ot Nordic's funny list that depicts rather accurately how much of a scrub he is at this game.
> Go read the first post. with glasses.
Biomass is a feature that doesnt need to be here because it bloats the gameplay and could easily be removed.
@RevanCorana ad homonim attacks are frowned upon by people having more than just a proto brain.
How is advanced armoury bloat? It conveys info to the aliens about the marine tech level when they scout the base.
Biomass is not that straightforward... but if you take a look at the alien economy, you have to spend that Tres somewhere. I think biomass is a child born of necessity. But then, by definition, it's not bloat.
from removing unnecessary bloat to changing gameplay direction.
1 Removing biomass is a big game changer.
Its not. Its the very definition of a filler mechanic like advanced armory, removing it would mean upgrades would still be linked to a number of hive and every upgrade would cost a little bit more to account for the removed cost of biomass.
Yes you could make upgrades depend on number of hives again and increase prices.
But even then, the health nerf on your aliens still needs to be accounted for somehow. And you also need to adjust the research durations.
It would be quite a mess to remove it at this point. That's not to say, that it can't be done or that it shouldn't - it should just be carefully considered before you do so.
Just remove everything but concede and shuffle. That way the game will be perfectly streamlined, hitreg won't be an issue and the road to perfection is almost complete.
One thing I really liked about the sewlek's balance mod in the early days was, biomass started off being tied to the number of alien structures. It sort of turned out to be about spamming crags and whips everywhere, which admittedly sucked. But I always thought that it would be interesting to have biomass tied to hives and harvesters exclusively.
It would all of the sudden make it imperative for aliens to expand and defend their territory. Because losing a harvester could be the difference between having metabolize or not, leap or not, umbra or not. I think that could make for some interesting gameplay. I don't know why it didn't turn out like that.
I guess it would skew the balance on certain maps. Veil comes to mind; losing nanogrid could either be absolutely devastating to aliens or completely overpowering to hold.
@RevanCorana ad homonim attacks are frowned upon by people having more than just a proto brain.
How is advanced armoury bloat? It conveys info to the aliens about the marine tech level when they scout the base.
Biomass is not that straightforward... but if you take a look at the alien economy, you have to spend that Tres somewhere. I think biomass is a child born of necessity. But then, by definition, it's not bloat.
I think marine arms lab upgrades also lack transparency and is a (uninteresting) lazy way to influence the game's balance, by simply increasing some numbers without introducing choices (boring linear progression).
Perhaps changing Weapons damage upgrade to only affect damage against structures and rework Carapace (change more marine weapons to Light damage?) would create more interesting interactions and strategies.
Of course, it is too late to make such drastic changes in NS2 already.
One thing I really liked about the sewlek's balance mod in the early days was, biomass started off being tied to the number of alien structures. It sort of turned out to be about spamming crags and whips everywhere, which admittedly sucked. But I always thought that it would be interesting to have biomass tied to hives and harvesters exclusively.
It would all of the sudden make it imperative for aliens to expand and defend their territory. Because losing a harvester could be the difference between having metabolize or not, leap or not, umbra or not. I think that could make for some interesting gameplay. I don't know why it didn't turn out like that.
I guess it would skew the balance on certain maps. Veil comes to mind; losing nanogrid could either be absolutely devastating to aliens or completely overpowering to hold.
from removing unnecessary bloat to changing gameplay direction.
1 Removing biomass is a big game changer.
Its not. Its the very definition of a filler mechanic like advanced armory, removing it would mean upgrades would still be linked to a number of hive and every upgrade would cost a little bit more to account for the removed cost of biomass.
Yes you could make upgrades depend on number of hives again and increase prices.
But even then, the health nerf on your aliens still needs to be accounted for somehow. And you also need to adjust the research durations.
It would be quite a mess to remove it at this point. That's not to say, that it can't be done or that it shouldn't - it should just be carefully considered before you do so.
Health could also be linked to the number of hives; thats beside the point that biomass is a hollow research that unlocks nothing on its own but other researches similarly to advanced armory, its just here to delay the game without adding any strategical choices.
On the other hand cysts / power nodes do add a whole asymetric mechanic that adds a shitload of choices so that thatd be completely retarded to remove.
How is advanced armoury bloat? It conveys info to the aliens about the marine tech level when they scout the base.
Biomass is not that straightforward... but if you take a look at the alien economy, you have to spend that Tres somewhere. I think biomass is a child born of necessity. But then, by definition, it's not bloat.
Not a valid argument, if there is no more advanced armory, jetpacks/exo would be longer to research therefore an alien scouting would just see the proto lab instead of the advanced armory and the info gathered would be the same.
How is advanced armoury bloat? It conveys info to the aliens about the marine tech level when they scout the base.
Biomass is not that straightforward... but if you take a look at the alien economy, you have to spend that Tres somewhere. I think biomass is a child born of necessity. But then, by definition, it's not bloat.
Not a valid argument, if there is no more advanced armory, jetpacks/exo would be longer to research therefore an alien scouting would just see the proto lab instead of the advanced armory and the info gathered would be the same.
That may be true, but don't forget that the AA also unlocks weapons for the marines, not just the proto. It does have a logical place in the tech-tree, how would marines be otherwise limited regarding weapons?
Lets be honest here. When a com researches AA its never in order to unlock GL and FT, always for proto lab. Heck most coms insta sell their AA once proto is dropped.
Same problem with shotgun what do you do when lerks are up? shotgun.
1 - single - "choice"
Its automatic and thats a B O R I N G thing in a strategy game.
Theres a mirror problem with lifeforms to an extent and I already suggested this a while ago in another thread, to add a few more lifeforms for this same reason.
What would be better for marines I think to fix the big linearity issue is to have HMG available from the start at the same cost as shotgun as an alternative tech.
Thatd be a start.
These "linear marine tech" posts keep baffling me.
Sure, on most public (and i daresay pro) matches, there's very little variance of strategies. But that doesn't mean there's no alternative at all, people just play it safe (out of habit).
If you have a cooperating marine team on pub, you can do wonders.
ARC rush, axe rush, HMG rush, FT rush (yes, the dragon is quite effective surprisingly)! These are just the rush strategies. You can get mines and place them in key locations, set up ambushes and drop the lerk without using shotties at all. Or just drop sentries in key junctions.
There's a lot variety in the game, but there is also an established culture of gameplay which has inertia and changes slowly. There are servers where you can try bold strategies and have a laugh with others, and there are servers where you get insta ejected if you don't drop the armslab first.
But let's say you're idea is valid, you can do two things:
Add abilities/weapons/whatever that only differ in name/appearance, but not in core mechanics. They can add a level of excitement for filthy casuals, but veterans won't be fooled. That's like having DLC skins.
The other option is to revamp the whole marine tech, which will inevitably lead to chaos, nuclear meltdowns, the death of your favourite pet and the final armageddon of humanity x)
Joke aside, if you even touch the AA tech mechanism, that would introduce so great changes in balance that you basically have to start all over again with the game. That's not gonna happen, even if your arguments are valid
If you have a cooperating marine team on pub, you can do wonders.
ARC rush, axe rush, HMG rush, FT rush (yes, the dragon is quite effective surprisingly)! These are just the rush strategies. You can get mines and place them in key locations, set up ambushes and drop the lerk without using shotties at all. Or just drop sentries in key junctions.
Yes. There are anectdotal original strategies that work only when the other team is far worst than yours. What's your point?
but there is also an established culture of gameplay which has inertia and changes slowly. There are servers where you can try bold strategies and have a laugh with others, and there are servers where you get insta ejected if you don't drop the armslab first.
Strategies that work are kept those that dont work are discarded, its a normal thing in competitive games.
If youre having a laugh with others chances are youre not playing the game (ie not trying to win).
But let's say you're idea is valid, you can do two things:
Add abilities/weapons/whatever that only differ in name/appearance, but not in core mechanics. They can add a level of excitement for filthy casuals, but veterans won't be fooled. That's like having DLC skins.
The other option is to revamp the whole marine tech, which will inevitably lead to chaos, nuclear meltdowns, the death of your favourite pet and the final armageddon of humanity x)
Joke aside, if you even touch the AA tech mechanism, that would introduce so great changes in balance that you basically have to start all over again with the game. That's not gonna happen, even if your arguments are valid
Please explain how having a choice between researching shotgun/HMG is in any way similar to skins or DLC? I really dont get this.
Also its not that hard to move a research from advanced armory to normal armory that's like 3 lines of code.
If anyone wants more skins thats probably PDT.
And if balance requires it tone the HMG down a notch we have playtesters for this.
Sorry if its seems like I mean to shove my opinions down peoples throat thats really not the case, I just think some aspects of the RTS side of NS2 could use serious improvements.
Comments
Biomass is central to the game's current balance, it should be made more prominent if anything.
thats why it should be removed. why ? because linearity. Im not gonna expand more on what I mean by that unless someone asks me to whilst being genuinely intrested in discussion.
I clearly was not able to communicate my point effectively, but I predicted this thread would go something like this.
Some may not see infestation, power nodes, or biomass as bloat but there are those that do. Nothing in the OP confined the scope of this thread to small changes. Anything and everything is fair game because anything and everything is within what the OP asked. That includes gameplay direction.
Thats making 2 wrong assumptions you like those dont you.
1 Removing biomass is a big game changer.
Its not. Its the very definition of a filler mechanic like advanced armory, removing it would mean upgrades would still be linked to a number of hive and every upgrade would cost a little bit more to account for the removed cost of biomass.
2 Removing other stuff like.. leap, drifter abilities, arcs?? is not a big deal? according ot Nordic's funny list that depicts rather accurately how much of a scrub he is at this game.
> Go read the first post. with glasses.
Biomass is a feature that doesnt need to be here because it bloats the gameplay and could easily be removed.
How is advanced armoury bloat? It conveys info to the aliens about the marine tech level when they scout the base.
Biomass is not that straightforward... but if you take a look at the alien economy, you have to spend that Tres somewhere. I think biomass is a child born of necessity. But then, by definition, it's not bloat.
But even then, the health nerf on your aliens still needs to be accounted for somehow. And you also need to adjust the research durations.
It would be quite a mess to remove it at this point. That's not to say, that it can't be done or that it shouldn't - it should just be carefully considered before you do so.
It would all of the sudden make it imperative for aliens to expand and defend their territory. Because losing a harvester could be the difference between having metabolize or not, leap or not, umbra or not. I think that could make for some interesting gameplay. I don't know why it didn't turn out like that.
I guess it would skew the balance on certain maps. Veil comes to mind; losing nanogrid could either be absolutely devastating to aliens or completely overpowering to hold.
add lerk perch !!!
I think marine arms lab upgrades also lack transparency and is a (uninteresting) lazy way to influence the game's balance, by simply increasing some numbers without introducing choices (boring linear progression).
Perhaps changing Weapons damage upgrade to only affect damage against structures and rework Carapace (change more marine weapons to Light damage?) would create more interesting interactions and strategies.
Of course, it is too late to make such drastic changes in NS2 already.
That sounds cool actually
Health could also be linked to the number of hives; thats beside the point that biomass is a hollow research that unlocks nothing on its own but other researches similarly to advanced armory, its just here to delay the game without adding any strategical choices.
On the other hand cysts / power nodes do add a whole asymetric mechanic that adds a shitload of choices so that thatd be completely retarded to remove.
Not a valid argument, if there is no more advanced armory, jetpacks/exo would be longer to research therefore an alien scouting would just see the proto lab instead of the advanced armory and the info gathered would be the same.
hehehe
That may be true, but don't forget that the AA also unlocks weapons for the marines, not just the proto. It does have a logical place in the tech-tree, how would marines be otherwise limited regarding weapons?
Same problem with shotgun what do you do when lerks are up? shotgun.
1 - single - "choice"
Its automatic and thats a B O R I N G thing in a strategy game.
Theres a mirror problem with lifeforms to an extent and I already suggested this a while ago in another thread, to add a few more lifeforms for this same reason.
What would be better for marines I think to fix the big linearity issue is to have HMG available from the start at the same cost as shotgun as an alternative tech.
Thatd be a start.
Sure, on most public (and i daresay pro) matches, there's very little variance of strategies. But that doesn't mean there's no alternative at all, people just play it safe (out of habit).
If you have a cooperating marine team on pub, you can do wonders.
ARC rush, axe rush, HMG rush, FT rush (yes, the dragon is quite effective surprisingly)! These are just the rush strategies. You can get mines and place them in key locations, set up ambushes and drop the lerk without using shotties at all. Or just drop sentries in key junctions.
There's a lot variety in the game, but there is also an established culture of gameplay which has inertia and changes slowly. There are servers where you can try bold strategies and have a laugh with others, and there are servers where you get insta ejected if you don't drop the armslab first.
But let's say you're idea is valid, you can do two things:
Add abilities/weapons/whatever that only differ in name/appearance, but not in core mechanics. They can add a level of excitement for filthy casuals, but veterans won't be fooled. That's like having DLC skins.
The other option is to revamp the whole marine tech, which will inevitably lead to chaos, nuclear meltdowns, the death of your favourite pet and the final armageddon of humanity x)
Joke aside, if you even touch the AA tech mechanism, that would introduce so great changes in balance that you basically have to start all over again with the game. That's not gonna happen, even if your arguments are valid
From the commander perspective none at all.
The marines currently have 1 viable tech path with for only variations, timing due to resflow/resbiting.
Strategies that work are kept those that dont work are discarded, its a normal thing in competitive games.
If youre having a laugh with others chances are youre not playing the game (ie not trying to win).
Please explain how having a choice between researching shotgun/HMG is in any way similar to skins or DLC? I really dont get this.
Also its not that hard to move a research from advanced armory to normal armory that's like 3 lines of code.
If anyone wants more skins thats probably PDT.
And if balance requires it tone the HMG down a notch we have playtesters for this.
Nice having a constructive talk Thanks!
...
Sorry if its seems like I mean to shove my opinions down peoples throat thats really not the case, I just think some aspects of the RTS side of NS2 could use serious improvements.