Training Modes Discussion
2cough
Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
This started as a response to some comments in another thread, but since there's clearly a need for more training modes, I figured it would be good to start a discussion about some realistic ideas for this. I know Beige has put a lot of work into the tutorials and lifeform practice platforms we have, and i'm grateful those exist, but I think there could be more. I can't code. I know nobody's interested in creating a mod for game w/ such a small player base that will get played far less than the time it would take to create it. I'm sure pdt has no time for this either, but that's not really the point. I'm interested mostly in determining whether a functional training/game mode (like muscle memory creating, familiarizing one's self w/ lifeforms and guns as opposed to general how-to) is really possible in ns2 without it being complicated or frustrating. A quick-in, quick-out warm up mode where you can play a few quick rounds and move on. This might get long, I'll try to make a bullet point tl;dr at the end.
So I've got a couple ideas I've put some thought into, wondering what those w/ valuable input might consider about them.
1st
Borrowing from an idea @meatmachine had in another thread and @IronHorse's recent mention of deathmatch, my first proposal is for a mode in which each player on either team is given a fixed amount of upgrades as well as points to spend on further upgrades. So marines could be hardcapped at A2 W2 and then given a given a fixed amount of points to spend on which primary you want to practice with (you dont have to start w/ lmg), and then anything else you'd get from the armory, advanced armory, or prototype lab. The point would be to practice w/ the equipment you'd practically have in an actual match, meaning you can't always afford ALL the gear you'd like for each spawn. You wouldnt have to spend all your points, so you can practice w/ a handicap if you'd like. Aliens would have a similar set up, but number of points may vary due to the asymmetry of their upgrade paths. Hardcap at biomass 6 (?) then can choose any number of upgrade chambers, but limit to 2 hive types. I would think it'd be best not to make this mode about competition, but rather engagement repetition, so I don't necessarily think having juiced up lifeforms and marines would really fit with the purpose. Point would be to develop muscle memory/aim and engagement sense as opposed to game sense since the strategy would be limited to how you're engaging; no rts elements would be in this mode, this would be more like a deathmatch. Die, respawn, repeat. No catpacks or nanoshield, but maybe periodic medpacks could be an upgrade choice depending on how much you want challenge yourself. Spawn points would be off limits for opposite team players so one can choose upgrades at leisure.
No score needs to be kept or displayed, maybe k/d and personal stats (like the ns2+ stats we see post-game/spawn) could be shown to each player via key toggle. Maybe you could view everyone's stats, I dunno. Repeating myself here, but want to emphasize that this mode is purely for self-improvement and training, not to be a competition. Salt does not need to be encouraged. Rounds or map changes would be decided by time limit or votes, no objective needs to be met for a round to complete. In a sense, rounds don't start or end. They just exist for as long as there are willing participants. Points and everything are fixed so as to prevent the late-joiners from not being able to catch up and subsequently having an experience that feels unfair. Come in, get the same access to ups everyone else has, and get some warm up or practice in.
At first I thought maps could just be small chunks of originals, since we want to practice in real environments and too large of maps would mean less frequent engagements. I don't wanna run around for 40 seconds to find a lifeform to 1 v 1 or what have you. However ambush spots and things should still be present. So maybe full maps? Half maps? Again, all rts elements removed. Maybe static props of harvestors and rts for cover like you'd have in a game.
It's pretty much like a drill server, but sort of cleaned up and organized for public play so you dont need to have a buddy and access to a drill server to do this with. Randoms can get together.
2nd
This would be closest thing to a gungame that ns2 could have, and admittedly I haven't put as much thought into it so help me out. My thought is that you work backwards. Start as Onos vs. Exos and gradually lose tech w/ each kill. Last kills would be with a pistol or gorge. The reason for this is that you'd be forced to start w/ life-forms or combos you may be less likely to spend time as in a real game. Maybe you start as onos w/ 2 upgrades, then 0, then fade w/ 2 upgrades, then 0, and so on. Considering towards the end of the game - pistols and gorges are out at this point - the kills will come faster than at the beginning of the round players are forced to spend more time in the roles they dont get to spend as much time in pubs while still beckoning a challenge for the vet out there since the worse players and late joiners would ALWAYS have better tech than him. Rounds would have objectives and end once the final kill is achieved. Numbers, tech reduction, etc haven't been super thought out, but I think the basis of this mode is decent for training and lifeforms and weapons.
Not sure about maps.
TL:DR quick points:
GAME MODE 1 - Extended warm up / drill server
-Essentially like a fancy drill server mod
-RTS elements removed
-Players have fixed upgrades (A2, W2 vs Biomass 6) w/ additional points to spend on a primary weapon and accessories and/or limited additional upgrades
-There is no game objective. Join, choose what you want to practice with, play as long as you want to warm up
*Benefits are that there are no late-join punishments and players can recreate real match situations to practice in
GAME MODE 2 - emagnuG 2SN
-RTS elements removed
-Start with highest lifeform or tech (Onos vs. Exos)
-Each kill reduces your tech or lifeform (reduction of armor, biomass, chamber upgrade, etc.)
*Benefits are that more skilled players will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage compared to those who have/can get less kills or late joiners. I imagine rounds could move pretty quick.
I know that this will more than likely never happen. But your ideas and thoughts are appreciated. Have your own ideas?
I put this in general discussion because nobody goes to ideas and suggestions. Move if you must.
So I've got a couple ideas I've put some thought into, wondering what those w/ valuable input might consider about them.
1st
Borrowing from an idea @meatmachine had in another thread and @IronHorse's recent mention of deathmatch, my first proposal is for a mode in which each player on either team is given a fixed amount of upgrades as well as points to spend on further upgrades. So marines could be hardcapped at A2 W2 and then given a given a fixed amount of points to spend on which primary you want to practice with (you dont have to start w/ lmg), and then anything else you'd get from the armory, advanced armory, or prototype lab. The point would be to practice w/ the equipment you'd practically have in an actual match, meaning you can't always afford ALL the gear you'd like for each spawn. You wouldnt have to spend all your points, so you can practice w/ a handicap if you'd like. Aliens would have a similar set up, but number of points may vary due to the asymmetry of their upgrade paths. Hardcap at biomass 6 (?) then can choose any number of upgrade chambers, but limit to 2 hive types. I would think it'd be best not to make this mode about competition, but rather engagement repetition, so I don't necessarily think having juiced up lifeforms and marines would really fit with the purpose. Point would be to develop muscle memory/aim and engagement sense as opposed to game sense since the strategy would be limited to how you're engaging; no rts elements would be in this mode, this would be more like a deathmatch. Die, respawn, repeat. No catpacks or nanoshield, but maybe periodic medpacks could be an upgrade choice depending on how much you want challenge yourself. Spawn points would be off limits for opposite team players so one can choose upgrades at leisure.
No score needs to be kept or displayed, maybe k/d and personal stats (like the ns2+ stats we see post-game/spawn) could be shown to each player via key toggle. Maybe you could view everyone's stats, I dunno. Repeating myself here, but want to emphasize that this mode is purely for self-improvement and training, not to be a competition. Salt does not need to be encouraged. Rounds or map changes would be decided by time limit or votes, no objective needs to be met for a round to complete. In a sense, rounds don't start or end. They just exist for as long as there are willing participants. Points and everything are fixed so as to prevent the late-joiners from not being able to catch up and subsequently having an experience that feels unfair. Come in, get the same access to ups everyone else has, and get some warm up or practice in.
At first I thought maps could just be small chunks of originals, since we want to practice in real environments and too large of maps would mean less frequent engagements. I don't wanna run around for 40 seconds to find a lifeform to 1 v 1 or what have you. However ambush spots and things should still be present. So maybe full maps? Half maps? Again, all rts elements removed. Maybe static props of harvestors and rts for cover like you'd have in a game.
It's pretty much like a drill server, but sort of cleaned up and organized for public play so you dont need to have a buddy and access to a drill server to do this with. Randoms can get together.
2nd
This would be closest thing to a gungame that ns2 could have, and admittedly I haven't put as much thought into it so help me out. My thought is that you work backwards. Start as Onos vs. Exos and gradually lose tech w/ each kill. Last kills would be with a pistol or gorge. The reason for this is that you'd be forced to start w/ life-forms or combos you may be less likely to spend time as in a real game. Maybe you start as onos w/ 2 upgrades, then 0, then fade w/ 2 upgrades, then 0, and so on. Considering towards the end of the game - pistols and gorges are out at this point - the kills will come faster than at the beginning of the round players are forced to spend more time in the roles they dont get to spend as much time in pubs while still beckoning a challenge for the vet out there since the worse players and late joiners would ALWAYS have better tech than him. Rounds would have objectives and end once the final kill is achieved. Numbers, tech reduction, etc haven't been super thought out, but I think the basis of this mode is decent for training and lifeforms and weapons.
Not sure about maps.
TL:DR quick points:
GAME MODE 1 - Extended warm up / drill server
-Essentially like a fancy drill server mod
-RTS elements removed
-Players have fixed upgrades (A2, W2 vs Biomass 6) w/ additional points to spend on a primary weapon and accessories and/or limited additional upgrades
-There is no game objective. Join, choose what you want to practice with, play as long as you want to warm up
*Benefits are that there are no late-join punishments and players can recreate real match situations to practice in
GAME MODE 2 - emagnuG 2SN
-RTS elements removed
-Start with highest lifeform or tech (Onos vs. Exos)
-Each kill reduces your tech or lifeform (reduction of armor, biomass, chamber upgrade, etc.)
*Benefits are that more skilled players will ALWAYS be at a disadvantage compared to those who have/can get less kills or late joiners. I imagine rounds could move pretty quick.
I know that this will more than likely never happen. But your ideas and thoughts are appreciated. Have your own ideas?
I put this in general discussion because nobody goes to ideas and suggestions. Move if you must.
Comments
Eventually, you'll be able to save a replay of your run for review, and also race against a ghost of that run on any subsequent runs (like mario kart 64 ghost mode).
Bottom timer is of course your elapsed time, middle is perhaps your personal best, and the top will be the goal for the next medal-time. Maybe players get a badge for earning a medal in this challenge mode? Would also be super easy to add other race tracks to this.
Argh, a speedometer!!! That's perfect... Definitely going in now.
Yes, everyone knows about last stand. It didn't even remotely hit the mark though for a number of reasons (if you really need me to explain these I'd be glad to).
The problem with basically every single proposed 'training mode' game type I see, is that combat mod did it better.
I like the concept of a reverse gungame type mode. But as an offshoot of combat game type :P
And i will never understand why its still an extra game cause it was never successfull:
http://steamcharts.com/app/310110
To the guys of Faultline: You tried it, it failed. Shit happenes.
Now move on and give Combat back to UWE.
I don't think UWE wants anything to do with it, actually
After playing that for a few sessions I never missed a skulk with a shotgun again (well, maybe a couple of times but you get my point).
I wonder if it could be expanded upon to train with other guns vs other life forms too.
Oni with pistols
I want to post an idea of good fade basic traning for beginners (and not only them). The problem of most people which play bad as fade is lack of control skills so this training is exactly what they need. I even mounted a video which simulate my idea:
I'm not a coder too so this is just an idea. I also can compose such trainig for skulk and lerk but that will be much more difficult to code (require bot's behavior management). For training marine there are some recommendable options too:
@BeigeAlert's Hive Challenge is very good too.
2) If you are interested in creating a training mode to learn how to take engagements then I'm not sure your suggestions is a good enough because they doesn't reconstruct conditions similar to vanilla or competitive engagements. At least because letting the participants the right to configure themselves a subject to train breaks game meta. More looks like existing casual shooting modes as Last stand or Combat(RIP) but not training mode.
So a warmup or muscle memory training mode dont need look like normal game.
Btw, whats the name of this little map ur using?
Edit:
ns2_niitsenmapu2, but its not on the workshop
that looks sick Beige
Boooo, hisssss, grrrr.. do it again!
uhm I mean..uh.. yeh, nice work Beige!
If there would be a fademode where you start with metabolize, only 10% energy and close corners so that ppl could train strafemovement then it would help this lifeform as well..
Also some ideas:
a sneak part.. you see a marine who is facing another entrance.. (so the back is to the skulk)
either you sneak silently after for example the red line , so that bot wont aimbot you and skulks learn just how far away you can actually hear your enemy (most ppl dont know that and run into marines and start sneaking far to late) or you take the long route around pillars/bars to use your environment as a shield so you wont get aimbottet by the bot
If i knew how to mod i would try to get combat mod working again and just rename it to something different, as it (aside from playing actual matches against skilled individuals) was probably the best way to help people with weapon / lifeform practice. Changing the way weapons and lifeforms behaved in NS2:Combat was a big flaw for that project imo.
Who cares what its called as long as its the same settings for all the units + weapons like old combat mod was.
Combat and Skulks with Shotguns (and optionally Fades... with Shotguns)
They're FUN game modes and great for aim training.
Nobody's going to play a training mode that isn't fun for more than a few minutes, and it wont be (worthwhile) aim training if they dont play it for any decent amount of time.
A shooting range isn't going to work for NS2.
Skulks with Shotguns is a wee bit broken at the moment, last I heard @BeigeAlert had fixing it on his maybe-to-do-eventually list. If someone wants to take up the task they could maybe speak to him?
Would probably be easier to get that up and running rather than make combat mod from scratch (which, btw, a couple of people actually did, but the mods never saw public light)
Haven't looked at SwS in a long time. If anyone wants to have a go at it, be my guest.
Can you make a playable version of this map please
Take the current comm training modes, and remove the ability to click icons in the build menu. Force people to use hotkeys. Greatly improved efficiency and responsiveness.
Make Pheremone/Waypoint use part of comm training. For anyone other than very experienced players, knowing where, when, and how to go somewhere is incredibly opaque and leads to a lot of frustration. Waypoints are the perfect tool to guide and focus pub players and should be specifically pointed out.