(NS2 STATS) Average Tech Timings - Discuss
Nordic
Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
In the spoiler below I have included a large table that shows average tech timings. Averages are a statistic that are sometimes as misleading as it is useful. This table will not tell you what the most common build order is. It does not tell you the frequency of the tech. It most certainly does not tell you the optimal tech path. It only tells you the average time something was completed. For the more technical oriented, the early and late timings are the first and third quartile timings. The data comes from NS2+. You may notice some odd things in the table. According to the data, prototype labs are built on average before the advanced armory is researched.I could speculate why this is but I do not want to. Despite the imperfection of this table, I decided this was interesting enough to share. Or maybe I am just bored and want to see how these forums respond to this data.
Discuss.
Discuss.
Comments
Dota 2 has a lot of similar situations where some seemingly illogical items on some heroes have very high statistical winrates. This is because certain items only end up getting picked up if the game is already going very favourably in the first place and you want to snowball further ahead or finish the game in quick manner. That doesn't make them the overall best items on the heroes in most situations, but gives them amazing winrates nevertheless.
My NS2 is very rusty though, please do correct me if I got something totally bonkers in the thought process there.
I mean, if I'm gonna build sentries (rare), I'm gonna plop all three at once.
I suspect this, along with the extractor @F0rdPrefect pointed out is due to different distances to initial res on the maps. Early would indicate a much closer res point on a map, where most are of a greater distance.
marines run to RT, hopefully one builds are the rest move on.
All the while on alien, you wait for your cyst chain to grow, your drifter to build your harvester. Also is delayed if no gorge helps it up, or if your comm did not instant drop the drifter.
Aliens just have a slower start, its nothing to worry about. Its been like this like forever.
To be clear, it is the first one built outside base. I think everyone understood that, but clarity is good.
It appears odd at first, but we could borrow Bacillus' point below and extrapolate it to harvesters:
Assuming late harvesters means harvesters beyond a high number, n (for .e.g above 4)
Could be totally wrong though >.<
I could have including timings up to 40+ RT's, but that would be too much information. I only included the first and second built extractors and harvesters outside of base.
A lot can happen in that amount of time.
A lot can happen in that amount of time, especially if you are assuming "multiple oni" which means barely any fades or lerks.
And 3rd hive before boneshield???!!
At least people seem to be quick on bilebomb
They might be echoing harvesters around. As for the others... these are averages, edge cases might be distorting things.
As a normative statement, aliens should not typically be able to save for multiple oni. In my opinion it really speaks to the state of the game that this is not only possible, but advantageous. It is not an easy problem to address.
I admit, I'd like for that to happen regardless, however.
Unfortunately there is such a mechanical skill discrepancy between the Onos and the Lerk/Fade that it really puts off scrubs. I know people who have played this game for ages and they will go skulk, gorge and onos, but rarely the other two. Not saying this is the only problem, of course...
You'd hope you could just buff lerk/fade and nerf onos a little, but then good lerks and fades will too often shut down games completely.
I only play pub games. That's why I know that players are more likely to go gorge than fade and lerk. But you skipped the important part as usual.
Your solution to alien lifeforms becoming cheaper is to a) increase onos pres cost (already happened), b) lower marine tres costs. Typical.
I just now realized how badly I want to try that fade game in the training menu.
About the stats, can the timing list be separated by W/L for both teams?
Reminding them at 18/35 res that they have faderes... lerks who go lerk at 35 res are mostly throwing the game as well and they rather go onos next time
Here is the answer -> Reduce the cost to re-evolve into that higher life form after a death. Maybe have the cost slowly rise as time goes on.
something like:
If you lived as a lerk just a minute you get 3/4 of what you paid for it back when you die.
If you lived only 2 min you get 50% back when you die.
If you are good and lived say 5 min you don't get anything back after death.
I think it would be a mess. It would be really good for balance, but locking players out of major gameplay options because other players got their first is generally not a good idea. I.E. "This %&^!% took my onos!"
Would probably be better for alien side anyways because you'd force people to learn other lifeforms, instead of falling on the onos crutch every game just because they can.
Side note, while K/D doesn't matter to most, kills per second should.. My skulk K/S keeps up with Hobbes lerk...(and my lerk/fade < Hobbes lerk). IMO Skill ceiling on skulk keeps skulks relevant for the entire round.
While I can see how my comment might've provoked you, it was intended to be humorous.
Going forward I'd appreciate it if you toned down your sass.. it's not appreciated and not welcome, and I'll do my best to keep things professional when interacting with you as well.
You are incorrect that the Onos price has been increased.
Onos cost is the same as it's always been... Proportionally. When the pres income rates were increased, the price of the onos remained the same, meaning it was cheaper/quicker to get. Then the price was increased to match the exact timing that an onos would have prior to said income rate increase - thus, the value of an Onos remains the same.
So yes, there's room to increase the price further, as it hasn't been done in many years. But like I said, I'm not sure its the best route.
Also,
1) the problem is not alien costs being cheaper? Where did you even get that from? If anything that'd imply a higher likelihood of non onos lifeforms.
2) the "important part" in your prior comment was you conflating W2/A2 with Oni?? That tech is pretty well timed with fades, as it should be. IDK Why you ignored and shrugged off the point regarding tier 3 timing between the teams with a non sequitur.
"The problem" is that lerks and fades are harder to play / easier to die with than an onos - coupled with the power output of that lifeform and the get-out-of-jail-free card that boneshield is, along with improperly timed Marine tier 3 tech... it's really no wonder why onos explosions are a thing, and quite viable.
So exactly what I said?
Onos timing is the same as it has always been, except that time when pres rates were increased. Then Onos cost was increased to revert to the previous timing. But the problem is alien costs being cheaper. Onos explosions started then and it hasn't stopped, because the lifeform stagger has been decreased. Yes, there are less non onos lifeforms, but for the carry players, they can evolve and reevolve earlier so as to buy the time.
Your logic was that aliens can do a lot in the timing difference between Onos and marine tech. My counter point was that marines have a similar advantage at an earlier point.
And no. The problem isn't that onos is so much more powerful than lerks and fades or the previous onos. The problem is that you can get to the point that you can legitimately have multiple onos as you don't have to commit to getting as many lerks and fades.