Again I say, I am NOT crazy about Their new ideas for the O2 tanks.
IMO, with many of the recent changes, the game is now going from a fun somewhat scary adventure, to a more labor intensive ordeal.
It seems that They are catering more to the hardcore players at this point, I hope that doesn't backfire on Them with lower player numbers.
They already have my money, so I know my protests are likely falling on deaf ears and my opinions are probably in the minority, but I'll most likely move on to something else if this trend continues.
< shrug >
What an odd response, given your stand on checking battery levels:
It's possibly ONE, maybe TWO additional seconds to press the R-button to see the power level on the Scanner...
Are we really that lazy?
Do we really need the game to do EVERYTHING for us??
/shrug
Manually changing tanks is a thing in real world Technical Diving, so I don't see this as either unrealistic nor game breaking. I already trade inventory space for more air (like real life) so having to swap a tank in mid dive is not much of a sacrifice. I do think that if this is going to be required, there should be some very simple way to do this via hotkey or something. I like the suggestion of altering the paperdoll to allow for a second tank - a reserve if you will - and maybe that would be a good way to implement a hotkey swap. Like changing fuel tanks on a modern dual tank vehicle. Note that empty tanks change your buoyancy in real life, and unless you are dropping them like a fighter plane does, you have to carry the empties around with you for the entire dive. I am disappointed in the relative difference between the UHC and LHC tanks. Six times the drag from the UHC, for less than a 20% increase in air endurance, is a terrible trade off. No reason at all to carry the UHC tank.
Again I say, I am NOT crazy about Their new ideas for the O2 tanks.
IMO, with many of the recent changes, the game is now going from a fun somewhat scary adventure, to a more labor intensive ordeal.
It seems that They are catering more to the hardcore players at this point, I hope that doesn't backfire on Them with lower player numbers.
They already have my money, so I know my protests are likely falling on deaf ears and my opinions are probably in the minority, but I'll most likely move on to something else if this trend continues.
< shrug >
What an odd response, given your stand on checking battery levels:
It's possibly ONE, maybe TWO additional seconds to press the R-button to see the power level on the Scanner...
Are we really that lazy?
Do we really need the game to do EVERYTHING for us??
/shrug
Manually changing tanks is a thing in real world Technical Diving, so I don't see this as either unrealistic nor game breaking. I already trade inventory space for more air (like real life) so having to swap a tank in mid dive is not much of a sacrifice. I do think that if this is going to be required, there should be some very simple way to do this via hotkey or something. I like the suggestion of altering the paperdoll to allow for a second tank - a reserve if you will - and maybe that would be a good way to implement a hotkey swap. Like changing fuel tanks on a modern dual tank vehicle. Note that empty tanks change your buoyancy in real life, and unless you are dropping them like a fighter plane does, you have to carry the empties around with you for the entire dive. I am disappointed in the relative difference between the UHC and LHC tanks. Six times the drag from the UHC, for less than a 20% increase in air endurance, is a terrible trade off. No reason at all to carry the UHC tank.
I would also like to see a second tank slot added to the paper doll, but for dual tank use rather than as a reserve that would need to be swapped with a hotkey. This I think is more realistic than swapping tanks after just over 2 mins, not because tank switching doesn't happen in real life, but because most people I've seen do extended dives use twin tank setups. With all of that said, I'm fairly happy with the new UHC tanks... I'd gotten so used to carrying around 2 HC tanks to get 165s and having that hefty speed penalty that using just one tank to get 155s and having much less speed penalty feels like I've suddenly become a sprinter after walking everywhere. Still, it would be nice to be able to get more than 155s without having to juggle tanks all day...
Again I say, I am NOT crazy about Their new ideas for the O2 tanks.
IMO, with many of the recent changes, the game is now going from a fun somewhat scary adventure, to a more labor intensive ordeal.
It seems that They are catering more to the hardcore players at this point, I hope that doesn't backfire on Them with lower player numbers.
They already have my money, so I know my protests are likely falling on deaf ears and my opinions are probably in the minority, but I'll most likely move on to something else if this trend continues.
< shrug >
What an odd response, given your stand on checking battery levels:
It's possibly ONE, maybe TWO additional seconds to press the R-button to see the power level on the Scanner...
Are we really that lazy?
Do we really need the game to do EVERYTHING for us??
/shrug
Manually changing tanks is a thing in real world Technical Diving, so I don't see this as either unrealistic nor game breaking. I already trade inventory space for more air (like real life) so having to swap a tank in mid dive is not much of a sacrifice. I do think that if this is going to be required, there should be some very simple way to do this via hotkey or something. I like the suggestion of altering the paperdoll to allow for a second tank - a reserve if you will - and maybe that would be a good way to implement a hotkey swap. Like changing fuel tanks on a modern dual tank vehicle. Note that empty tanks change your buoyancy in real life, and unless you are dropping them like a fighter plane does, you have to carry the empties around with you for the entire dive. I am disappointed in the relative difference between the UHC and LHC tanks. Six times the drag from the UHC, for less than a 20% increase in air endurance, is a terrible trade off. No reason at all to carry the UHC tank.
That is a rather stupid response when you are comparing a quick extra keystroke for battery information, to having too completely change out an O2 tank multiple times in order not to DIE while playing the game.
And in the real world they have specialized valves that divers can use when working with multiple air tanks.
They don't have to return to the surface and switch out empty tanks for full ones every time ONE of them runs dry.
That is a rather stupid response when you are comparing a quick extra keystroke for battery information, to having too completely change out an O2 tank multiple times in order not to DIE while playing the game.
And in the real world they have specialized valves that divers can use when working with multiple air tanks.
They don't have to return to the surface and switch out empty tanks for full ones every time ONE of them runs dry.
smh
Perhaps you don't see the significance of my username? I dive. In and out of Subnautica
I don't have to return to the surface in Subnautica when one of my tanks (note the plural) runs dry. Just like in real life, if I have multiple tanks (again, plural) then I can remain underwater as long as my dive plan allows.
However, I assure you that in real life, just as in Subnautica, if you are only using ONE tank, and it runs dry, you absolutely DO have to return to the surface (or an air filled habitat) if you want to live. Also, you have very little time to do so, therefore you need to be paying attention to your gauges, and how the flow of air feels while you're breathing.
As far as 'specialized valves' for swapping tanks, most divers I know that plan to use more than a double or triple tank simply attach a second regulator to the extra bottle group and swap regulators when needed. However, changing a bottle manually (i.e., moving the first stage from an empty bottle to a fresh one) is not only possible, it used to be one of the survival skills taught to divers in the early 80s - along with breathing from a runaway regulator, and breathing directly from a spare tank (both of which use a similar technique). Swapping out tanks in game could very easily be represented by simply switching from one regulator to a secondary one. Most divers carry two regulators as standard practice, in fact.
Again I say, I am NOT crazy about Their new ideas for the O2 tanks.
IMO, with many of the recent changes, the game is now going from a fun somewhat scary adventure, to a more labor intensive ordeal.
It seems that They are catering more to the hardcore players at this point, I hope that doesn't backfire on Them with lower player numbers.
They already have my money, so I know my protests are likely falling on deaf ears and my opinions are probably in the minority, but I'll most likely move on to something else if this trend continues.
< shrug >
Well, the other side of the player base, looking for a more interesting gameplay challenge should be considered. I've always felt the day/night cycle should be much longer than it is now - longer nights means a harder early game being without solar power and scavenging by flare-light. Having the NITROGEN effect enabled as normal gameplay would be more realistic; you can stay underwater longer but injure yourself by surfacing too quickly.
And then there was the very short-lived and polarizing increased Fabricator crafting times... I personally loved that change; and you can't tell me that making a simple Titanium Ingot of dense metal takes the same amount of time as a complex electronic device such as the Mobile Vehicle Bay. (Don't get me started on the short build times for complex underwater structures with the Habitat Builder also, lol).
The reason I bring this up again comes around to the game having more options in regards to gameplay. The game should be fun and engaging for players that want to experience the game world and enjoy its beauty, without saddling them with ultra-realism. However taking away complex management options also removes the challenge for players wanting higher risks to survive. What's a good way to appeal to both sides?
I've often felt the game needs a 5th mode, Custom, that let's you alter multiple aspects of the game: build/craft times, O2 consumption and duration, the passage of time, even how much damage you can take and how aggressive creatures are. Players that want a focus on fun gameplay can make it easier, while those who want more challenging gameplay can make it harder.
But that may be more of a coding frustration than I assume it to be. While I would like a Custom mode maybe the devs could add difficulty levels to Survival instead - Easy could have stacking O2 tanks, reduced energy drain and other perks. Normal would be what we have now, and Hard could increase crafting times and the passage of time.
I'm not saying all of this because I want others to suffer, but I don't want the game to lose it's edge as an underwater survival game. Holding multiple air tanks at once to increase O2 supply, and they all recharge instantly by surfacing has always felt 'cheaty' to me. With this change it makes more realistic sense, and adds more interest to an already great game. I don't want to see it fall to the wayside just because people feels 'it's unfair'.
A better balance IMHO would be to have the player breath holding be shorter (>30s, just long enough to dive for titanium and quartz in the safe shallows to craft a proper tank) and have the tanks hold significantly more air (maybe +90s per tank). The top tier tank should give a full 5 minutes, there are plenty of wrecks and tight cave systems that could use this kind of endurance so we're not having to rush through.
I fully agree. I'm not a dive expert but i figure even a hand pumped tank could hold more thank 30-90sec.
A quick google search has informed me that the average tank allows for an hour of air at 10m and a few minutes at 40m. We're talking roughly a 10-20 times difference before we even reach the average depth of the kelp forest. By default you also should be able to hold your breath for a minute or two, which is way more than 45 seconds. These facts are completely different than the rules Subnautica puts forth and so I don't think you can bring real-world logic into play as concretely.
That leaves us with game logic, i.e. how the numbers affect gameplay. If we reduce no tank time that's going to begin to limit what the player can do without tanks. This would typically only apply before the player is able to build any tanks, i.e. very early game. Probably wouldn't be too much fun to dive for a single item and resurface every time because your air is so limited. If we increase the duration of bottom tier tanks then that's going to reduce the value of higher tier tanks because you can do more with the bare minimum.
Lastly, tank upgrades would probably matter more if there weren't so many sources of free oxygen underwater. Depending on location you have brain coral, I just learned airsacks refill air on consumption so you can use them anywhere, using some supplies allows you to pipe oxygen just about anywhere, bases give you oxygen as well, and you pretty much don't even have to care about air at all once you get into vehicles. Only reason for tanks in mid-late game at all I can see is for wrecks. At that point in the game you might as well go tankless for all the good they'll do you.
All in all I think tankless vs tanked air is balanced well enough as-is.
I did an extensive write-up to an earlier post, regarding real life vs Subnautica values for free-air breathing and oxygen tanked breathing. I found out that even when factoring in the game's accelerated timeframe, the current (as of Silent Running update) O2 values for underwater breathing are significantly lower in-game versus what real-life expectations should be. Yeah, thirty seconds of breathing without support are the norm untrained, but even then we should be able to stay underwater longer than what the current Stable version allows. With that logic in place, that should also make being underwater with O2 tanks even longer than what the current Experimental version allows. Hopefully the new values from Experimental will be adjusted to more practical values with the next Stable update.
Also in my other post, I talk about the ability to hold multiple air tanks and my dislike of carrying so many around while swimming. And while I know my opinion is but one of many and I can't speak for others, I still feel like it's game-breaking at worst and "cheaty" at best. Because as funny as it would seem to carry around 12 oxygen tanks, it really should be impractical and cumbersome at the least.
It is a rather interesting gameplay problem. Air is the most vital resource in the game and required to advance in any appreciable manner (although I suppose you could surface swim to the floating island and live out your days there).
I would agree that an additional slot for another tank on the paper-doll that would be part of your basic O2 supply would be nice even with the tank options we have now. If that was added I could bear the manual inventory swaps if I wanted to carry even more tanks.
Of course other questions about air management always come up; do my bases have some air scrubbers instantly installed once I attach power? When I first started the game I spent some time trying to figure out how to attach a base mounted air compressor to my pods because it seemed only reasonable that they would be required (and they were in the build inventory) and yet we don't have to do anything to our base to have an unlimited source of air.
I have to charge batteries and power cells once they are exhausted and yet I don't have to do something similar to air tanks; why? I would rather have tanks with a far greater capacity that were finite in their air supply in that I had to actually recharge them over time before using them again as opposed to the lower capacity instant recharge we have now. Maybe that is something the base attached air compressors can be used for.
Maybe out survival suit's air supply can be recharged instantly as air is now and like power supply stacking at a base the suit supply is used first before any tanks. The suit can be refilled instantly but the tank level remains at whatever level it was when last accessed after the suit supply ran out>
Or should be have to actually create a pipe system with air compressor stations every so often along lengthy stretches from the surface to any base we build below? We almost do the same thing with power transmitters.
...but in the short run I would agree with those that want an extra paper-doll slot for another tank as a minimum and a quick swap option for inventory tanks ala battery changes so I don't have to give up another 4 slots just to change tanks.
To make me use both tank versions - lightweight (LW) vs ultracapacity (UC) , the devs would have to make them with two major distincitve differences.
The LW tank is the tank I use most, as it allowed me escaping sharks so far. But if the UC tank gives me just 20sec more ( about 15% more), with the disadvantage of being shark food, than I won't use it. If I'd get 50% more oxygen (about 200s in total), than I might use it for wreck exploration.
And if they make the LW tank too slow or the sharks faster, so that you can no longer escape sharks, than I'll never use the LW tank again.
So the numbers don't matter that much. It's the usage that really distinguishes those tanks. The threshold if I can outperform predators or not or the threshold if I have enough wreck diving time or not is all that counts.
EDIT:
As silent running is in the game and O2 tanks create noise, why not invent a more silent O2 circulation system (liquid breathing?) that lowers the divers range of getting detected and make that UC tank not only a better capacity, but a more silent choice?
SlinkySlim666Panama City, FloridaJoin Date: 2017-02-27Member: 228333Members
This change is so stupid. Revert back, I have to waste time and oxygen to swap out tanks now and there isn't even a display in the inventory of how much oxygen is left in each tank.. Its ridicules. Seems like no thought was put into this. This game is set way into the future and even in our time we can connect tanks together with gauges that show how much oxygen each tank has, Why isn't it like this at least in game. I probably wont be playing anymore for awhile until this is either reverted or adjusted better.
SAFETY NOTE: Taking a tank out of a Wall Locker (and likely other storage) into Inventory without swapping into the Paperdoll leaves the tank empty.
BEFORE SWIMOUT, CHECK ALL SPARE TANKS FOR FILLING BY PUTTING THEM IN THE PAPERDOLL
Version: Experimental May-2017 47914
Just discovered this during a quick exploration of the Grand Reef after leaving the Floating Isle. While down at under 300m but fortunately close to the Cyclops.
I had 1 Lightweight High Capacity Tank in the Paperdoll. I'd taken a spare LHC Tank from a Wall Locker into Inventory. I'd explored close to the Cyclops.
Oxygen had gone down from 135s to under 45s. I swapped out my empty and put in the other. No extra oxygen. Tried swapping two more times. No extra oxygen.
Swam back to the Cyclops. Swapped tanks inside and saw the spare tank only fill in the Paperdoll.
Swam out again and ran oxygen down to under 45s. Swapped tanks this time and had a full LHC Tank now.
SAFETY NOTE: Taking a tank out of a Wall Locker (and likely other storage) into Inventory without swapping into the Paperdoll leaves the tank empty.
BEFORE SWIMOUT, CHECK ALL SPARE TANKS FOR FILLING BY PUTTING THEM IN THE PAPERDOLL
Version: Experimental May-2017 47914
Just discovered this during a quick exploration of the Grand Reef after leaving the Floating Isle. While down at under 300m but fortunately close to the Cyclops.
I had 1 Lightweight High Capacity Tank in the Paperdoll. I'd taken a spare LHC Tank from a Wall Locker into Inventory. I'd explored close to the Cyclops.
Oxygen had gone down from 135s to under 45s. I swapped out my empty and put in the other. No extra oxygen. Tried swapping two more times. No extra oxygen.
Swam back to the Cyclops. Swapped tanks inside and saw the spare tank only fill in the Paperdoll.
Swam out again and ran oxygen down to under 45s. Swapped tanks this time and had a full LHC Tank now.
Posted this as a bug in the Bug Subforum.
As much as I really dislike the current direction the Dev's are taking with the use of O2 tanks in the game...
This does add the exceptional 'realism' of having to personally double check all of ones air tanks before doing a dive.
Some folks around here will be ecstatic about this particular BUG.
As much as I really dislike the current direction the Dev's are taking with the use of O2 tanks in the game...
This does add the exceptional 'realism' of having to personally double check all of ones air tanks before doing a dive.
Some folks around here will be ecstatic about this particular BUG.
I on the other hand will still be grumbling.
A rather lethal realism. I was lucky I was just a short distance from my Cyclops at the time I discovered it.
Tanks really need to have an indication of fill when mouse-hovered in the Inventory, same as Batteries and tools with Batteries. It gets a bit crazy trying to check and especially swap the tanks correctly.
I have been playing the game from practice of only having the air of one tank at a time. It does add a fair amount of complexity on large deep wrecks that did drive me to setting up an air pump with 2 dozen pipes for safe searching.
This larger amount of work is, or rather would be, cool if many of the best items were not already acquired from much more shallow explorations.
Fifteen minutes of set up for 20 or so pieces of titanium because you have all the fragments inside the wreck already is a let down.
The pattern of acquisition and challenge better blueprints is something I want to see improved.
I'd use air pipes more if they didn't have the flashy animation that obscures my vision. Agreed with the idea of adding a battery air pump that lights the pipes.
SlinkySlim666Panama City, FloridaJoin Date: 2017-02-27Member: 228333Members
I still think this was a bad move on the devs part. Why cant we swim around with 10 o2 tanks hooked up at once if we want. I can imagine that and its hilarious. Being a peeper and seeing some creature trying to swim with the big bundle of metal strapped to him lol
I'm not enthusiastic about the tank change, and I sort of wish I were playing (and had bought) earlier. As much as I agree that it's terribly silly to try and swim around with half a dozen tanks, I do not get along with the current air limit in bigger wrecks, and I happen to think the pump/pipe system is so derpy and unrealistic that I refuse to use it. Dozens of meters, potentially hundreds, of tubes from the surface to wherever, free-floating but mystically unmoving, instakills my immersion. Tried it once, never again.
I know I'm not efficient at exploring wrecks and tend to get turned around somewhat, but if, in the bigger U-shaped wrecks, I'm cheating in an ultra-capacity tank, parking the seamoth at the entrance, and making three or four trips in and out with seaglide, I'm questioning the air capacities. I'm certain this is not an issue for old pros and real divers experienced with the disorientation associated with wreck and cave diving, but it is for me.
I also keep finding that, in sideways wrecks, I keep running into gimbal lock situations where I have to waste several seconds figuring out which axis has locked and working around it, which does not help my air issues.
My biggest problem with the Air tanks is that its just not realistic at all, not even close. First off, a good sized tank diving to a depth of 40 ft will last 45 to 60 minutes depending on the person their experience and a few other considerations. Now take into consideration that this game is based in the future where we are flying around the stars in spaceships and using technology like fabricators. I would think that diving technology would have advanced. The best air tank in the future of this game holds 110 seconds of air......not even 2 minutes? The only argument against this would be that in game you don't have to do safety stops to release Nitrogen as you ascend or that the air tank doesn't need a compressor to refill. Still if they are going to take away stacking air tanks by only allowing you to actively use the one on the ragdoll then they should at least make a greater difference in total air as you upgrade the tanks.
Regular O2 tank: 60 seconds
High Capacity Tank: 120 seconds
Lightweight HCT: 120 seconds (only diff is weight)
Ultra High Capacity: 180 Seconds
I think I could live with these numbers, gives us the ability to only use one tank instead of stacking them in the inventory.
I really seem to play very different from a lot of people here. I have never used more than two of the old capacity tanks, and the new one seems perfectly adequate, even for wreck diving. Yes, there is a lot of back and forth between wreck and vehicle, but if I didn't have to keep an eye on my air supply, there'd be no point even having a limitation there. I wouldn't even consider myself to be that quick. I constantly have to stop and check which way is up and make sure I keep track of where I came in. But even so I rarely have a problem. No, I don't use pipes either. Still enough time to scan everything I need. And the bigger wrecks have several entrances anyway.
Yes, with the new in between stage, the UHC values need tweaking to be really worth it, but I'd hardly consider that game breaking.
It makes me curious how people do dive (and especially explore wrecks). Do you not use your vehicles as portable oxygen bubble? Do you park them a fair way away? Do you read the PDA logs right there in the wreck? Only use one entrance?
It makes me curious how people do dive (and especially explore wrecks). Do you not use your vehicles as portable oxygen bubble? Do you park them a fair way away? Do you read the PDA logs right there in the wreck? Only use one entrance?
I was about to ask that... I usually get by with two tanks in the game because when I explore wrecks I park my Seamoth RIGHT next to the entrance I used, go in, explore, go back out when I run low on air and get in my Seamoth to refill.
It depends on the wreck. A lot of them I can get by with 2 tanks, but I get turned around easy so I generally try to take more with me for those events. If the dive reel worked as intended it wouldn't be so bad, but as it is I don't like giving myself less than a minute to get out again.
I only ever used a single tank for immersion and tended to get an air source near a wreck or cave (Brain Coral, Air pipes, Seamoth) and then dive multiple times. It was always enough for me, but for people who needed more tanks I think the ultracapacity should have more air, but distinguish itself from the other tanks well enough.
Usually I use light tanks with ultraglide fins to be able to escape creatures. If I'd use a heavy ultra tank I should get real advantages to my speed disadvantage.
Suggestion for Ultracapacity Tank (New name: Liquid Breathing Tank)
Heavy and slowing the diver to make a diver too slow to escape sharks
240min air at minimum (also good for people who want to dive slowly)
silent diving (no breathing noise through liquid breathing)
no rebreather necessary (included in the tank system), so allows rad helm usage while diving deep
This tank would allow me to use both tanks: The lightweight tank for openly diving in creature territory and the ultracapacity tank for diving in deep narrow dark tunnels or using it for stealth purposes.
Right now the only real tank that makes sense is the lightweight tank.
The fin upgrades make up for the extra weight of the high capacity tanks. I use the high capacity with the glide fins and it's enough to get away from sharks without difficulty. Charge fins with seaglide work fine too. Making one that gives distinct choices might be neat though, as is you can make anything work which is kinda nice in itself.
I really don't like the idea of switching tanks on the paperdoll to extend air time. If they really want you to have to switch, it needs to be a hotkey type of thing, like switching regulators on a dive.
The problem stems from the stupidly short amount of time your tanks give you. The game plays more like a free diving game than a scuba game. It seems balanced for a super speed gameplay. You swim super fast, run out of air super fast, day/night cycle is super fast, hunger and thirst are super fast. It's like everything is in fast forward.
The problem with switching tanks in the paperdoll is it's super irritating. Changing batteries is annoying enough, but switching tanks on EVERY dive would be maddening. Especially since the tanks only add so many seconds of air time. At a minimum, it needs to be hot keyable.
Switching tanks on the paperdoll only makes sense if the tanks last a decent amount of time. Say at least 3-5 minutes. Anything less is just a waste of player time and an irritation. The same thing applies to having to equip a tank to fill it. If they want to be anal like that, just require a fill station and compressor to fill tanks. Swapping stuff in the inventory is a senseless wast of time in a game.
Rather than these reworks, I would prefer they have various tank loadouts you can pick before going out. You could choose between regular, HC, doubles, double HCs, doubles with sidemout, etc.
It would also be interesting to have a rebreather option that required more resources, but offered really long dive times. It would have to be stocked with O2, dilutent, scrubber, and batteries but it would give you something like a 30 minute dive time in the game.
I don't mind more realism in the game, but messing with the tank system while keeping the air times stupidly short is not fun. There is no need to turn the game into "tank swap every 40 seconds simulator".
I already thought oxygen lasted stupid short amounts of time, hunger and thirst happened way too fast, and things took too much damage before the round of recent updates. I can honestly say I am rapidly losing any interest in playing the game they are apparently making. It is not the quirky, beautiful exploration game I fell in love with. They seemed determined to make it more realistic, more intense, and less fun with every update.
I rarely went with more than 2 tanks because I hated how much it slowed me down and I hated having to commit even more space to the seaglide to compensate. 105 total O2 is usually plenty for exploring wrecks. There's a couple larger ones were a third tank will help but any more always seemed horribly gratuitous.
I don't know how you completely explore wrecks with so little breathing time.
When searching wrecks most of the time I'm not going to be hauling back materials so I don't need a lot of available inventory. The wrecks quickly become sufficiently large that I need extra tanks to completely explore them, even requiring several swimouts from the Seamoth to do so. Once beyond the simple small ones in the shallows, I used between 4 and 6 extra 30s tank to give me 195s to 255s of breathing. I can't see how the larger wrecks can be explored completely and safely without that much time. That includes the wreck in the Koosh Bulb Zone that's down about 200m in the Aurora rad zone, which means time will run out twice as fast without being able to use a Rebreather.
I have Lockers at the hatch of my bases and on the bridge of my Cyclops just so I can adjust my inventory (and later dive suit) right before swimming out or deploying in the Seamoth or PRAWN. I don't carry more than 1 or 2 space Batteries for all my tools and after getting the Battery Charger and especially the Swim Charge Fins often none. I separate my swimouts for fishing, gathering, and wreck investigation. Even when loaded with the Seaglide and 4 to 6 extra tanks (for deep diving and going for wrecks and fragments and data boxes), I have space for gathering a few vital items which is all I'll want to take back.
If I'm scavenging for fish or materials in shallow waters, I often don't bother with the Seamoth but just use the Seaglide for its speed, which isn't slowed by tanks in the inventory. I don't use it for long distances but instead swim on the surface prior to getting the Seamoth. And the Seaglide is vital on initial deep dives to get down from the surface in short order. I also use the Air Bladder to quickly ascend when I need more oxygen. The 9 spaces the Seaglide takes up are just the overhead (less that 20% of inventory) needed to get that speed. It's worth it for what the Seaglide gives me, including a Flashlight replacement as well as Battery recharging once I have the Swim Charge Fins.
I explore wrecks completely by making more than one trip. As long as the seamoth/prawn/cyclops is parked nearby I can run out and grab some more air, and still have a couple of mintues to explore another section which each dive. It rarely takes more than three runs to thoroughly explore a larger wreck.
To explore in the radiation zone you fix the aurora first so you can keep your rebreather on. You can fix the Aurora any time once you build the rad suit so there's no reason to put it off for so long. I had an issue back when I thought the devs were going to gate the entire aurora interior behind the propulsion canon because back then it was hard to get the fragments for those and that was forcing us to go a long time without the rebreather which was irritating, but you don't need the canon to fix the radiation leak.
and I mentioned how I don't like to keep separate load outs for different expeditions. What if your checking the wreck in the floating island for fragments and stumble across a stash of diamonds, and you need those diamonds. You just leave them and come back later? You can't mark the location because your inventory is full of tanks and your seaglide so there's no room for a beacon. I suppose you have to use the cyclops just for exploring wrecks in that scenario just because you need to be able to switch load outs on the move.
Why bother? With a couple lightweight tanks and the ultra glide fins I can move fast enough on my own to retire my seaglide (which used to be terribly impractical because of how much power it ate, granted that's been altered). I can bop around in my seamoth or prawn, swim fast enough to check out a wreck thoroughly with the time I have and still have plenty of inventory space to grab rare loot in the area. Making multiple trips to the Grand Reef, once to explore the wreck and again to collect stuff like deep shrooms, aluminum oxide cristals, and diamonds, or having to wait until I build a cyclops so I can swap load outs on the move seems so impractical when I can do all that in one trip by consolidating my inventory.
I actually really like the previous update where we were only using the tank that was equipped because all the tanks gave us 2x the O2 to start with, and only the one equipped was contributing to slowing us down, so I was able to take one plasteel and one high capacity and switch them as needed. Each one gave me plenty of air, with a single HC being as good as 4 tanks, and didn't impede my speed so again I didn't have to commit space to the seaglide just to get by, and I didn't need separate load outs for different trips.
To each his own and all, but your approach is that you'd rather have to take multiple trips with different load outs, putting off just about everything until you build the cyclops, taking the time to build and maintain that behemoth while slowly crawling along so as to not be attacked by bonesharks, filling your inventory with redundant gear just so you can explore an entire wreck without making more than one trip without air. My approach is to forgo all of that and just swim back to my seamoth when I am out of air.
For the record, there are plenty of people who play though the entire game with a single standard tank, going all the way to the deepest recesses of the game. I've made a series of videos showing how I do it with two, if you still have trouble believing me.
For the record, there are plenty of people who play though the entire game with a single standard tank, going all the way to the deepest recesses of the game. I've made a series of videos showing how I do it with two, if you still have trouble believing me.
This is all moot with the changes to tanks in Experimental which opened this topic.
In a new game, 90s tanks will be quickly achieved with some of the earlier Silver. Until we get some sort of indication of how much oxygen is in a tank in inventory, it won't be wise to carry more than one or two spares (be sure you've filled them all first) as it'll be easy to mix them up. And with my previously stated oxygen times for exploring wrecks, one or two spare tanks with all tanks providing 90s is all you need.
And I do explore wrecks in multiple swimouts. I just don't like risking asphyxiation while doing so. And I adjust my loadout for each trip out whether swimming or in the Seamoth or PRAWN. That's why I put a lot of lockers for that near my base hatches and on the bridge of the Cyclops. Why not adjust your loadout for the current goal?
Swapping air tanks is tedious and doesn't add anything to the game for me, and detracts quite significantly. How about rethinking air tanks entirely?
How about air tanks are more in line with batteries. You can recharge them at the crashed pods, bases, and air pumps, but they last much much longer.
This would promote more construction and base building across the map, further limit range on a new game, and if you only permit the Cyclops to recharge the tanks, you would have to think out your exploration more carefully, and decide if it's worth leaving a seamoth that supplies it's own air (but incapable of recharging tanks).
I think a much simplier change would to be using the old system and simply bumping additional tanks beyond the paperdoll up to 8 slots vs 4. That would be enough to strain the player into heavily considering a drop of a backup O2 supply, but if there is an exploration plan in place, the player could still opt into bringing additional along.
Comments
What an odd response, given your stand on checking battery levels:
/shrug
Manually changing tanks is a thing in real world Technical Diving, so I don't see this as either unrealistic nor game breaking. I already trade inventory space for more air (like real life) so having to swap a tank in mid dive is not much of a sacrifice. I do think that if this is going to be required, there should be some very simple way to do this via hotkey or something. I like the suggestion of altering the paperdoll to allow for a second tank - a reserve if you will - and maybe that would be a good way to implement a hotkey swap. Like changing fuel tanks on a modern dual tank vehicle. Note that empty tanks change your buoyancy in real life, and unless you are dropping them like a fighter plane does, you have to carry the empties around with you for the entire dive. I am disappointed in the relative difference between the UHC and LHC tanks. Six times the drag from the UHC, for less than a 20% increase in air endurance, is a terrible trade off. No reason at all to carry the UHC tank.
I would also like to see a second tank slot added to the paper doll, but for dual tank use rather than as a reserve that would need to be swapped with a hotkey. This I think is more realistic than swapping tanks after just over 2 mins, not because tank switching doesn't happen in real life, but because most people I've seen do extended dives use twin tank setups. With all of that said, I'm fairly happy with the new UHC tanks... I'd gotten so used to carrying around 2 HC tanks to get 165s and having that hefty speed penalty that using just one tank to get 155s and having much less speed penalty feels like I've suddenly become a sprinter after walking everywhere. Still, it would be nice to be able to get more than 155s without having to juggle tanks all day...
That is a rather stupid response when you are comparing a quick extra keystroke for battery information, to having too completely change out an O2 tank multiple times in order not to DIE while playing the game.
And in the real world they have specialized valves that divers can use when working with multiple air tanks.
They don't have to return to the surface and switch out empty tanks for full ones every time ONE of them runs dry.
smh
Perhaps you don't see the significance of my username? I dive. In and out of Subnautica
I don't have to return to the surface in Subnautica when one of my tanks (note the plural) runs dry. Just like in real life, if I have multiple tanks (again, plural) then I can remain underwater as long as my dive plan allows.
However, I assure you that in real life, just as in Subnautica, if you are only using ONE tank, and it runs dry, you absolutely DO have to return to the surface (or an air filled habitat) if you want to live. Also, you have very little time to do so, therefore you need to be paying attention to your gauges, and how the flow of air feels while you're breathing.
As far as 'specialized valves' for swapping tanks, most divers I know that plan to use more than a double or triple tank simply attach a second regulator to the extra bottle group and swap regulators when needed. However, changing a bottle manually (i.e., moving the first stage from an empty bottle to a fresh one) is not only possible, it used to be one of the survival skills taught to divers in the early 80s - along with breathing from a runaway regulator, and breathing directly from a spare tank (both of which use a similar technique). Swapping out tanks in game could very easily be represented by simply switching from one regulator to a secondary one. Most divers carry two regulators as standard practice, in fact.
Well, the other side of the player base, looking for a more interesting gameplay challenge should be considered. I've always felt the day/night cycle should be much longer than it is now - longer nights means a harder early game being without solar power and scavenging by flare-light. Having the NITROGEN effect enabled as normal gameplay would be more realistic; you can stay underwater longer but injure yourself by surfacing too quickly.
And then there was the very short-lived and polarizing increased Fabricator crafting times... I personally loved that change; and you can't tell me that making a simple Titanium Ingot of dense metal takes the same amount of time as a complex electronic device such as the Mobile Vehicle Bay. (Don't get me started on the short build times for complex underwater structures with the Habitat Builder also, lol).
The reason I bring this up again comes around to the game having more options in regards to gameplay. The game should be fun and engaging for players that want to experience the game world and enjoy its beauty, without saddling them with ultra-realism. However taking away complex management options also removes the challenge for players wanting higher risks to survive. What's a good way to appeal to both sides?
I've often felt the game needs a 5th mode, Custom, that let's you alter multiple aspects of the game: build/craft times, O2 consumption and duration, the passage of time, even how much damage you can take and how aggressive creatures are. Players that want a focus on fun gameplay can make it easier, while those who want more challenging gameplay can make it harder.
But that may be more of a coding frustration than I assume it to be. While I would like a Custom mode maybe the devs could add difficulty levels to Survival instead - Easy could have stacking O2 tanks, reduced energy drain and other perks. Normal would be what we have now, and Hard could increase crafting times and the passage of time.
I'm not saying all of this because I want others to suffer, but I don't want the game to lose it's edge as an underwater survival game. Holding multiple air tanks at once to increase O2 supply, and they all recharge instantly by surfacing has always felt 'cheaty' to me. With this change it makes more realistic sense, and adds more interest to an already great game. I don't want to see it fall to the wayside just because people feels 'it's unfair'.
I did an extensive write-up to an earlier post, regarding real life vs Subnautica values for free-air breathing and oxygen tanked breathing. I found out that even when factoring in the game's accelerated timeframe, the current (as of Silent Running update) O2 values for underwater breathing are significantly lower in-game versus what real-life expectations should be. Yeah, thirty seconds of breathing without support are the norm untrained, but even then we should be able to stay underwater longer than what the current Stable version allows. With that logic in place, that should also make being underwater with O2 tanks even longer than what the current Experimental version allows. Hopefully the new values from Experimental will be adjusted to more practical values with the next Stable update.
Also in my other post, I talk about the ability to hold multiple air tanks and my dislike of carrying so many around while swimming. And while I know my opinion is but one of many and I can't speak for others, I still feel like it's game-breaking at worst and "cheaty" at best. Because as funny as it would seem to carry around 12 oxygen tanks, it really should be impractical and cumbersome at the least.
I would agree that an additional slot for another tank on the paper-doll that would be part of your basic O2 supply would be nice even with the tank options we have now. If that was added I could bear the manual inventory swaps if I wanted to carry even more tanks.
Of course other questions about air management always come up; do my bases have some air scrubbers instantly installed once I attach power? When I first started the game I spent some time trying to figure out how to attach a base mounted air compressor to my pods because it seemed only reasonable that they would be required (and they were in the build inventory) and yet we don't have to do anything to our base to have an unlimited source of air.
I have to charge batteries and power cells once they are exhausted and yet I don't have to do something similar to air tanks; why? I would rather have tanks with a far greater capacity that were finite in their air supply in that I had to actually recharge them over time before using them again as opposed to the lower capacity instant recharge we have now. Maybe that is something the base attached air compressors can be used for.
Maybe out survival suit's air supply can be recharged instantly as air is now and like power supply stacking at a base the suit supply is used first before any tanks. The suit can be refilled instantly but the tank level remains at whatever level it was when last accessed after the suit supply ran out>
Or should be have to actually create a pipe system with air compressor stations every so often along lengthy stretches from the surface to any base we build below? We almost do the same thing with power transmitters.
...but in the short run I would agree with those that want an extra paper-doll slot for another tank as a minimum and a quick swap option for inventory tanks ala battery changes so I don't have to give up another 4 slots just to change tanks.
Greyfairer
To make me use both tank versions - lightweight (LW) vs ultracapacity (UC) , the devs would have to make them with two major distincitve differences.
The LW tank is the tank I use most, as it allowed me escaping sharks so far. But if the UC tank gives me just 20sec more ( about 15% more), with the disadvantage of being shark food, than I won't use it. If I'd get 50% more oxygen (about 200s in total), than I might use it for wreck exploration.
And if they make the LW tank too slow or the sharks faster, so that you can no longer escape sharks, than I'll never use the LW tank again.
So the numbers don't matter that much. It's the usage that really distinguishes those tanks. The threshold if I can outperform predators or not or the threshold if I have enough wreck diving time or not is all that counts.
EDIT:
As silent running is in the game and O2 tanks create noise, why not invent a more silent O2 circulation system (liquid breathing?) that lowers the divers range of getting detected and make that UC tank not only a better capacity, but a more silent choice?
BEFORE SWIMOUT, CHECK ALL SPARE TANKS FOR FILLING BY PUTTING THEM IN THE PAPERDOLL
Version: Experimental May-2017 47914
Just discovered this during a quick exploration of the Grand Reef after leaving the Floating Isle. While down at under 300m but fortunately close to the Cyclops.
I had 1 Lightweight High Capacity Tank in the Paperdoll. I'd taken a spare LHC Tank from a Wall Locker into Inventory. I'd explored close to the Cyclops.
Oxygen had gone down from 135s to under 45s. I swapped out my empty and put in the other. No extra oxygen. Tried swapping two more times. No extra oxygen.
Swam back to the Cyclops. Swapped tanks inside and saw the spare tank only fill in the Paperdoll.
Swam out again and ran oxygen down to under 45s. Swapped tanks this time and had a full LHC Tank now.
Posted this as a bug in the Bug Subforum.
As much as I really dislike the current direction the Dev's are taking with the use of O2 tanks in the game...
This does add the exceptional 'realism' of having to personally double check all of ones air tanks before doing a dive.
Some folks around here will be ecstatic about this particular BUG.
I on the other hand will still be grumbling.
Tanks really need to have an indication of fill when mouse-hovered in the Inventory, same as Batteries and tools with Batteries. It gets a bit crazy trying to check and especially swap the tanks correctly.
I have been playing the game from practice of only having the air of one tank at a time. It does add a fair amount of complexity on large deep wrecks that did drive me to setting up an air pump with 2 dozen pipes for safe searching.
This larger amount of work is, or rather would be, cool if many of the best items were not already acquired from much more shallow explorations.
Fifteen minutes of set up for 20 or so pieces of titanium because you have all the fragments inside the wreck already is a let down.
The pattern of acquisition and challenge better blueprints is something I want to see improved.
I know I'm not efficient at exploring wrecks and tend to get turned around somewhat, but if, in the bigger U-shaped wrecks, I'm cheating in an ultra-capacity tank, parking the seamoth at the entrance, and making three or four trips in and out with seaglide, I'm questioning the air capacities. I'm certain this is not an issue for old pros and real divers experienced with the disorientation associated with wreck and cave diving, but it is for me.
I also keep finding that, in sideways wrecks, I keep running into gimbal lock situations where I have to waste several seconds figuring out which axis has locked and working around it, which does not help my air issues.
Regular O2 tank: 60 seconds
High Capacity Tank: 120 seconds
Lightweight HCT: 120 seconds (only diff is weight)
Ultra High Capacity: 180 Seconds
I think I could live with these numbers, gives us the ability to only use one tank instead of stacking them in the inventory.
Yes, with the new in between stage, the UHC values need tweaking to be really worth it, but I'd hardly consider that game breaking.
It makes me curious how people do dive (and especially explore wrecks). Do you not use your vehicles as portable oxygen bubble? Do you park them a fair way away? Do you read the PDA logs right there in the wreck? Only use one entrance?
I was about to ask that... I usually get by with two tanks in the game because when I explore wrecks I park my Seamoth RIGHT next to the entrance I used, go in, explore, go back out when I run low on air and get in my Seamoth to refill.
Usually I use light tanks with ultraglide fins to be able to escape creatures. If I'd use a heavy ultra tank I should get real advantages to my speed disadvantage.
Suggestion for Ultracapacity Tank (New name: Liquid Breathing Tank)
This tank would allow me to use both tanks: The lightweight tank for openly diving in creature territory and the ultracapacity tank for diving in deep narrow dark tunnels or using it for stealth purposes.
Right now the only real tank that makes sense is the lightweight tank.
The problem stems from the stupidly short amount of time your tanks give you. The game plays more like a free diving game than a scuba game. It seems balanced for a super speed gameplay. You swim super fast, run out of air super fast, day/night cycle is super fast, hunger and thirst are super fast. It's like everything is in fast forward.
The problem with switching tanks in the paperdoll is it's super irritating. Changing batteries is annoying enough, but switching tanks on EVERY dive would be maddening. Especially since the tanks only add so many seconds of air time. At a minimum, it needs to be hot keyable.
Switching tanks on the paperdoll only makes sense if the tanks last a decent amount of time. Say at least 3-5 minutes. Anything less is just a waste of player time and an irritation. The same thing applies to having to equip a tank to fill it. If they want to be anal like that, just require a fill station and compressor to fill tanks. Swapping stuff in the inventory is a senseless wast of time in a game.
Rather than these reworks, I would prefer they have various tank loadouts you can pick before going out. You could choose between regular, HC, doubles, double HCs, doubles with sidemout, etc.
It would also be interesting to have a rebreather option that required more resources, but offered really long dive times. It would have to be stocked with O2, dilutent, scrubber, and batteries but it would give you something like a 30 minute dive time in the game.
I don't mind more realism in the game, but messing with the tank system while keeping the air times stupidly short is not fun. There is no need to turn the game into "tank swap every 40 seconds simulator".
I explore wrecks completely by making more than one trip. As long as the seamoth/prawn/cyclops is parked nearby I can run out and grab some more air, and still have a couple of mintues to explore another section which each dive. It rarely takes more than three runs to thoroughly explore a larger wreck.
To explore in the radiation zone you fix the aurora first so you can keep your rebreather on. You can fix the Aurora any time once you build the rad suit so there's no reason to put it off for so long. I had an issue back when I thought the devs were going to gate the entire aurora interior behind the propulsion canon because back then it was hard to get the fragments for those and that was forcing us to go a long time without the rebreather which was irritating, but you don't need the canon to fix the radiation leak.
and I mentioned how I don't like to keep separate load outs for different expeditions. What if your checking the wreck in the floating island for fragments and stumble across a stash of diamonds, and you need those diamonds. You just leave them and come back later? You can't mark the location because your inventory is full of tanks and your seaglide so there's no room for a beacon. I suppose you have to use the cyclops just for exploring wrecks in that scenario just because you need to be able to switch load outs on the move.
Why bother? With a couple lightweight tanks and the ultra glide fins I can move fast enough on my own to retire my seaglide (which used to be terribly impractical because of how much power it ate, granted that's been altered). I can bop around in my seamoth or prawn, swim fast enough to check out a wreck thoroughly with the time I have and still have plenty of inventory space to grab rare loot in the area. Making multiple trips to the Grand Reef, once to explore the wreck and again to collect stuff like deep shrooms, aluminum oxide cristals, and diamonds, or having to wait until I build a cyclops so I can swap load outs on the move seems so impractical when I can do all that in one trip by consolidating my inventory.
I actually really like the previous update where we were only using the tank that was equipped because all the tanks gave us 2x the O2 to start with, and only the one equipped was contributing to slowing us down, so I was able to take one plasteel and one high capacity and switch them as needed. Each one gave me plenty of air, with a single HC being as good as 4 tanks, and didn't impede my speed so again I didn't have to commit space to the seaglide just to get by, and I didn't need separate load outs for different trips.
To each his own and all, but your approach is that you'd rather have to take multiple trips with different load outs, putting off just about everything until you build the cyclops, taking the time to build and maintain that behemoth while slowly crawling along so as to not be attacked by bonesharks, filling your inventory with redundant gear just so you can explore an entire wreck without making more than one trip without air. My approach is to forgo all of that and just swim back to my seamoth when I am out of air.
For the record, there are plenty of people who play though the entire game with a single standard tank, going all the way to the deepest recesses of the game. I've made a series of videos showing how I do it with two, if you still have trouble believing me.
In a new game, 90s tanks will be quickly achieved with some of the earlier Silver. Until we get some sort of indication of how much oxygen is in a tank in inventory, it won't be wise to carry more than one or two spares (be sure you've filled them all first) as it'll be easy to mix them up. And with my previously stated oxygen times for exploring wrecks, one or two spare tanks with all tanks providing 90s is all you need.
And I do explore wrecks in multiple swimouts. I just don't like risking asphyxiation while doing so. And I adjust my loadout for each trip out whether swimming or in the Seamoth or PRAWN. That's why I put a lot of lockers for that near my base hatches and on the bridge of the Cyclops. Why not adjust your loadout for the current goal?
How about air tanks are more in line with batteries. You can recharge them at the crashed pods, bases, and air pumps, but they last much much longer.
This would promote more construction and base building across the map, further limit range on a new game, and if you only permit the Cyclops to recharge the tanks, you would have to think out your exploration more carefully, and decide if it's worth leaving a seamoth that supplies it's own air (but incapable of recharging tanks).
I think a much simplier change would to be using the old system and simply bumping additional tanks beyond the paperdoll up to 8 slots vs 4. That would be enough to strain the player into heavily considering a drop of a backup O2 supply, but if there is an exploration plan in place, the player could still opt into bringing additional along.