ns2_veil_cured

pSyk0mAn

An attempt to balance the different Alien Starts and reduce frustrating stalemates especially regarding System Waypointing.

publish_id = "575b854c"
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1465615692

Changelog:
-Moved Pipeline and Neck closer to the center of the map
-Removed vent exit into pipe
-Added another big crate in Cargo near the res node
-Added half closed door in Sub Sector similar to the ones at the res node platform
-Added and moved crates in Overlook for better Gorge Tunnel spots and defense
-Added a vent from Overlook to System Waypointing
-Minor changes to System Waypointing geometry and more Terminals on upper level for cover

Kasharic

I'd like to request that you put the nano vents above nano instead of below to get rid of the rookie trap that is the east/west junction vents.

otherwise, nice changes, I hope to play them soon!

pSyk0mAn

Yes, I didnt want to change too much yet, and first see how the map is received.
Those vents are definately on my list tho.

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Added a straight connection from east to west vent below the Nanogrid floor
-Added a hanging container crate in Cargo to make it easier for skulks to get straight up to the crane and challenge jetpackers

G_Lock

I really like what you did with neck and pipe, the long path running from C12 to neck always felt overly long and bare.

Zavaro

pSyk0mAn wrote: »

Update:
-Added a hanging container crate in Cargo to make it easier for skulks to get straight up to the crane and challenge jetpackers

This is brilliant. I thought about trying to tackle this before but I could never come up with an aesthetic solution. Props for your props.

pSyk0mAn

G_Lock wrote: »

I really like what you did with neck and pipe, the long path running from C12 to neck always felt overly long and bare.

Yes, exactly.
Pipeline was just too far away from the rest of the map for Aliens and also Marines (when Aliens start Sub).
Now Aliens are faster everywhere on the map from Pipe. Easier to defend C12 or harass Topo.
At the same time Marines holding the Pipe side have an easier time to defend those res towers against Sub-Aliens.

Kasharic

Took a look at the changes earlier, my only concern with your changes at all is the Overlook to System vent.

With this in place, aliens will rarely lose a lifeform, one of the most effective pinch spots is now gone... more often than not, if you have a marine in west junction and a marine in sub, a Lerk in Overlook that goes low will die... now, there is almost no chance at all that it will happen.
The vent itself creates an "invulnerability spot" where the only ways for marines to deal with an alien in there is with Jetpacks (for the most part), which means even if you have a marine in Y-junction, Sub AND west junction trying to trap, you're still not going to get that kill if the Lerk just sits in the vent.

I appreciate what you're trying to achieve with the vent, but I believe there is likely a better way to do it.

The rest of the changes I really like, though I do question if Utility is even needed now, you could remove the powernode for that area and just make it all Pipeline.

pSyk0mAn

Agreed about Utility, was thinking about it too, since it is so small now and the Power node is close to Pipe Power node.

I understand the concern about the vent, but I don't like your reasoning, or let's say I don't agree that it has to be that way.
Nevertheless I'll try to put some crates below the vent exit in overlook, so a Marine can at least shoot inside, while jumping up to challenge that "invulnerability spot".

Edit: Removed Utility, added crates below vent exit.

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Added more space in The Dome towards the north to improve that phasegate position, when Aliens have Sub side.
-Added more starting Cysts in Pipeline; harder to harass Pipeline Harvester, takes 1 less Cyst towards Cargo/Nano/C12.

So..I have a few more ideas, but they would probably alter the map and the way how ppl are used to play Veil too much.
But I'm curious about everyones thoughts.

-Move Sub more to the south, which makes Sub Start a bit less alien-favored and at the same time increases rotation times for Marines against Pipe side Aliens, while defending Extractors.
This unfortunately removes the ARC spot in the corner of System, so I'm not sure about this change.

-Make Skylights somehow more marine friendly. (This may not be needed, if Sub were farther away to the south)
- Increase its size maybe, so it takes a second longer for Skulks to get in/out of the vent.
- Add two crates at the vent exit, so a single Marine can get inside from Skylights. This would destroy or heavly nerf all those (fun) mini-games and mindgames regarding that vent area (at least until jetpacks) and also affect Alien Starts in Pipe/Cargo.

The_Welsh_Wizard

I have not seen your The Dome change yet, but giving it more space is generally a good thing, I don't like the gameplay in The Dome due to how narrow it is.

I think Skylights is already very marine friendly. The only thing I think could be worth a look is to make the vent a bit less accessible for skulks, aka a bit longer time needed to get into it. I would really dislike the idea of being able to hop into Skylights vent as a single marine though.

pSyk0mAn

The skylight changes are only related to Sub Start, because when you compare it to Topo - Pipe Start it is much easier to skulk-drop on Marines in Skylight and deny/kill the Extractor early, which has a rather big impact on the early game.
Furthermore it is easier to trap Aliens in Topo vent or keep it clear compared to Skylights. All these things play into Sub Start being too strong.

Edit: Created more space in Skylights.

Mouse

I think the skylights vent needs to have less LoS on the node. Make it so that the aliens need to stick their heads out to snipe at it.

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Moved the Vent Entrance leading from Pipeline to Cargo lower, so it's more obvious and easier to reach. Also slightly easier to cover by Marines holding Pipe side.
-Added 2 alcoves between Pipe and Neck for Aliens to dodge some bullets in these long hallways.

pSyk0mAn

Update:
-Added a crate in Skylights as los-blocker so it's easier for Skulks to move from behind the res node to the left wall, when Marines approach.
-Added a crate in East Junction to make it easier to jump over the railing, when going from Topo to Nano.
-Lowered the entire half ring around the C12 res node area to hopefully improve that area for Marines (against Lerks/Fades) without screwing with early game Skulks spawning in Pipeline.
-Added some crates in Y-Junction near System entrance to improve that area for Skulks and Gorges to either bile more safely or be able to get into vents (not happy with the visuals, just for testing now). This also helps Aliens starting in Pipeline. That whole Y-Junction area is just too Marine-friendly compared to the opposite area around Dome, when Aliens start in Sub.
-Created more space at the Cargo entrance coming from Y-Junction for ARCs shooting at Cargo so they don't have to be placed in the doorway.
-Fixed Occlusion Geo in West causing muffled shooting sounds (Thanks Handschuh).
-Fixed EXO stuck bug in Y-Junction (Thanks Ironhorse).

Then another thing I'm thinking about to improve a few things at once:
Somehow shorten the travel time from Topo/East to Marine Start by slightly moving Topo more towards the map.
This would improve the following things:
-Help Marines against Aliens starting in Sub, because they save a few seconds to go to the East / Pipeline side of the map
-Help Aliens in the lategame against System lockdown, because a Topo Tunnel or rotation leads to faster base-rushes.
-Help Marines in general to react a bit faster to Topo RT being attacked.

Any thoughts?

The_Welsh_Wizard

Looks solid, but what I am not a fan of is the crate in Skylights. It is already incredibly safe to bite that RT, adding an extra crate makes it even easier. There must be some level of risk and commitment for a Skulk to bite an RT.

pSyk0mAn

Since I made skylights bigger and moved the RT more away from the entrance, it is already harder to retreat to the vent or the other side. Hence the crate to give a Skulk a better chance to get to the left side and wait for the Marine to come closer.

Zavaro

The minimap is currently inaccurate with where the Cargo vent is. If it's an issue with Groups or Layers, I'd suggest adding geo high above the Commander camera and add it to the vent layer, that way it'll show up properly on the minimap, but not effect the other contents of layers or groups.

pSyk0mAn

So after watching and playing tons of games, special thanks to @SupaFred @wooza @AmbivalentAmbiguity , I've realized one of the single biggest advantages Sub- and Cargo-Spawn have, is the Gorgetunnel in C12. Especially against Sub-Hive you can see how Aliens take away the entire right side of the map over and over against a mediocre Marine team.

-After reducing the ring's height I've also shortened the endings on both sides a bit to make the room more open during Gorge Tunnel scenarios and added two more crates outside so Marines can jump on top from the (vent-) entrance.
You could argue this is also bad for Pipe-Spawn, but if Aliens focus on a C12 Harvester in the early game, they got it wrong anyway. It's like Overlook with Sub-Spawn.

-In exchange I've added some standing tiles on the Overlook platform covering parts of potential Gorgetunnel and PVE next to the Harvester to make a tunnel there more viable.
-Also fixed a trap/stuck bug between container and wall in West.

pSyk0mAn

Update (new changes planned for 328):
-Fixed minor pathing issues in some locations
-Moved Marine Start power node in the middle so Aliens can attack it from both entrances.
-Moved Sub Sector power node more to the right, so Aliens from System entrance can attack it more easily.
-Added a few more obstacles/cover spots in Sub Sector
-Increased height of the crate in Skylights to enable a single Marine to get into the vent (in your face vent Gorges).
-Added a crate in West Junction to make the trick jump into Overlook vent easier.
-Added a few more obstacles/cover spots to Topo

.trixX.

pSyk0mAn wrote: »

Update (new changes planned for 328):
-Increased height of the crate in Skylights to enable a single Marine to get into the vent (in your face vent Gorges).

I think that's a bad idea...
Marines can get into that vent alone from the other 2 entrances.
It's the same in topo, although that vent is a bit shorter.

Allowing a lone marine to enter from there would take away some of the cheeky aliens tactics while biting res... (and not necessarily just that of gorges)

EDIT:
Otherwise, i love the changes, veil got a lot more exciting!

pSyk0mAn

Yes, I reverted the Skylights change.
Made some additional changes to Dome.

skav2

Good job on Veil! I actually enjoy the map now

pSyk0mAn

-Moved Skylights, Overlook, Sub Sector and parts of West Junctions 256 units to the left.
This does the following:
-Removes the ARC spots in System Waypointing against Sub Hive
-Increases travel time for Marines to west side and also rotation times to defend west side RTs from System PG.
-Aliens have more time to retreat into Skylights vent, when they see a Marine coming from base.
-Increases travel times for Aliens starting in Sub, which hopefully decreases the way too high winrate for Sub Start.
-Makes a West Junction PG more Marine friendly

-Removed the corridor between Neck and Dome
-Moved Pipeline closer to the rest of the map
-Made Dome-Pipe-Cargo area more Alien friendly
-Moved the Pipeline - Cargo vent to be easier accessable from Pipe
-Re-arranged the broken pipe stuff and forklift between Cargo and Dome to offer more cover and a quicker route to the ceiling vent
-Re-opened the Dome-C12/East vent
-Added two more pillars in East to help Aliens
-Made a direct connection from East/Nano to the hallway leading to the Dome from Nano in order to help Marines against Sub Hive

-Removed the vent from System to Overlook completely (for now)
-Removed crate from Dome-C12 vent so you can't do a cheap Armory jump shortcut
-Moved Pipe RT to the south
-Moved Sub RT to the south