pSyk0mAnNerdish by NatureGermanyJoin Date: 2003-08-07Member: 19166Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Community Developer
Radimax, I actually agree with you about the disk and memory usage, although I don't know how much impact it'd really had compared to the work that'd be needed to change all that.
There are also multiple instances of props, which look identical, e.g. models/props/biodome/biodome_fan_01.model and the eclipse fan model.
The problem is, you'd not only have to combine materials whereever possible, which is already a lot of work,
but you also need to edit all the maps, that used the deleted (duplicate) assets, which are now combined with others.
damn, this problem sounds like its roots goes deeper than i thought!!! yeah something i had to do once i was working on a map for couple of month on a different game called call of duty by Activision they owned the modtools, had to FIND & REPLACE textures in use (was an actual function in engine where if texture is same size it flawlessly swapped without compiling as long the texture was being called or texture name was changed it could have any aspect ratio as long we swapped it for identical or better one, this is why i took on the normal maps as example since they can be seamlessly changed for everyone on a whim and still fit 100% as they were downscaled one time so you are making file on average 1/4th of what it used to be in size not even ½ of it, but less meaning you could add 3 new alpha blends for ONE normal map that is pasted over the old one gonna look into models at some point as well but only if replacing a normal works successfully will keep anyone interested updated but i'm more than happy to send some improved textures if they are simply replacements and lesser versions now that hearing total deletion will be a bit tricky. That way anyone can press PASTE (do you want to override existing file? yes) once game is 100 mb smaller and 100 mb lesser used stuff they can confirm it for everyone with proof it works and looks the same. i am happy to do ingame comparison with different sized textures and a chart of how much can be saved per file even in total if i log all the textures i open and modify.
bonus scenario from minutes ago, in 20 second (open and resave all files without alpha) literally 20 mb that's 1 mb per second looking into this (great return of investment 1:1 ratio improvement haha even better judging the filesize) i would not mess around to much with skybox because it is stretched around the ENTIRE map on descent but the little bit on the right shows a selection (2024x2024 massive white alpha map embedded in all of the skyboxes)
all number (2) is actually the original pictures incase somebody wanna paste it over or officially use them after physically saving an invisible layer, but because they all are 2k textures that double its size, alpha only decide THE WHOLE picture to be shown at all time so remove some embedded alphas (literal opposite of my proposal mere hours ago BUT in this case and use that is the way to save the MB and optimize it, i don't make the rules i just play along haha
so conclusion to 6 pictures i did this morning was 32 mb, is now 12 on medium optimization 100% the same, and 3!!!!!!!!! MB when i downscale it 1 time, that could be for players ticking in something like LOW LIGHTS in options, yes you need to script 1 option but that will give players ability to have the 3 mb or 12 mb or original HD 32 mb for every official map (i am ready to do it like the person yesterday suggested) got the medium 12 mb version ready and downscale 3 mb verion ready for descent that just happen to be the first folder i open today, the tiny pic on the right i tried 1028x1028 instead of 2048 x 2048 texture. improvement is "EXPERIMENTAL WACKY SUPER TINY TEXTURE PACK, sure 1024x1024 still visually indistinguishable to the naked eye when scaling both of them next to each other to simulate it being drawn from same distance before all 6 was 2mb each now you have FULL entire skybox, 1024x1024 x 6 times! in pixel-span in just 3 MB! yes this is extreme or crazy but it is also possible, now imagine 10 maps? that is 29 mb per map shaved off. i understand they don't want minecraft textures but nobody could tell the difference in the normal map comparison before i dont even need to compare the skyboxes they are legit the same but different scale and no normal depends how many steps of improvement you want i can make.
I really tried, but if you continue to write your posts like that, Radimax, I don't think I will ever finish reading a post you make.
There is a reason that there is punctuation and capital letters.
yeah sorry the welsh wizard i only moved to the uk 2 years ago im still learning (english is my 3rd language i most recently learned but it dont make it any easier to use my second or first grammatically since i have always had trouble from dyslexia since a young age maybe why i convey what i mean in single pictures easier) i do try very hard to get the point across but some information is to technical for average player since we go into detail about the core game files in question etc. i do beg my pardon for making this hard on you (it was on me most part of life and will continue i assume unless magical cure exist to type better) but unless you are developer on ns2 you are far better off making other suggestions how to retain players than trying to decipher my efforts to save you some storage space and load times not just by optimizing single files, literally anything goes i am happy to hear if you have any improvement that could be done to my favorite game!
Maybe we should hold a yearly presidental election between Kharaa or Humans, Heck even can have our female president that way! it can be broadcasted at the spectator screens like that middle computer in Docking Readyroom
haha winners of mockup election get stars & stripes available badges plus fancy Star-stickers to put all over armors and helmets it could be fun to see a plastered onos with VOTE FOR PRESIDENT FADE that way chances players then want to pimp out the other team would lead to a rigged vote in favor of the other team since we all want to match in game haha. Pretend the marines won and everyone can customize and adapt the stickers where you customize player so everybody wins and can do it! i bet people would come back even if they stopped playing ns2 during the year when they hear hey other candidate is gonna get elected so after win we can all slap some stars on that gorge ass!
You do know that you could literally do all of this "2 minute" work yourself, pass on your work to UWE and it would be implemented with credit given and thanks shown etc...
To give a counter-point, there's a pretty good chance any contributed work gets forgotten or discarded for various reasons.
I'm aware that some work does get lost in the nether, but it depends on who you're approaching, what they are doing at the time etc. After all the devs are only part time and get paid by the job, not by the hour. So to expect them to be on hand and on demand 24/7 is completely unreasonable.
By offering a helping hand and doing the work yourself, the writing down exactly what it is you've done and why you believe it will help, you can then send the written explanation to all the devs to find the one that you need to discuss it with, after a brief discussion, if you both agree that it is a good thing to implement, boom, it will be implemented.
I don't get what is so difficult to understand here tbh... go to the correct dev + don't act like a dick = profit.
I would like to have that list of correct devs then apparently in all my years of ns2 i have been talking to 1000 of the wrong kind of people! and this is just part of my election suggestion that kind of started like a troll idéa but sound better now that i think of the possibilities, of course nobody will ever make it since devs are not on hand 24/7 something nobody could ever be even a brain surgeon needs his breaks, we are all human after all but if the product was released and completed years ago and there is still ways to improve it why not? (yes we might have 50 more updates i cannot wait) but nobody needs to have 10$ just to look at textures every hour to make ONE simple improvement of this year and if that is the case i will gladly take that role, make it a 24 hours stream lol confirmed most things gets discarded so this entire topic is hypothetical therefore no need to get upset over things that may never happen in the end.
Just as i found out we all play with 100% non-translucent skybox that could be a DXT 1 (small file) but saved as a BIG DXT 5 FILE that ALSO adds alpha layer (with transparency) then the translucent bit is drawn on all 6 files on all layers then makes it turn back to SOLID white non alpha DXT 1 textured base as DXT 5 transparency ends up non-transparent. imagine buying a car painted with a galaxy then cover it in transparent diamond THEN you spray paint all that with the main galaxy again why not simply remove the diamond part (saving space, weight, size, cost yet looks the same) this is what i want to do to the skybox remove the invisible layer and make it fraction of its original size!
I would like to have that list of correct devs then
"The correct devs"
what a lovely misinterpretation of what I said, congratulations.
What I said was that you should write up a list of what changes you intend to/have made, then send that list to each of the devs (maybe via discord) asking for them to take a few moments to look over that list and direct you to the correct dev to speak to for those specific changes.
Once talking to the correct dev, you then can go more in depth what what you have done/are intending to do, discuss whether its worth the time/effort to do so, weight the pros and cons etc... if after that you both agree that it would be worthwhile, get to work, make the changes, send the files + changelog/list to that same developer and watch as you are thanked for your contributions and your work is put into the game.
I don't understand what is left to discuss here, its been explained, I think its great that you like providing examples of work you could be doing, but instead of actually doing it, you're complaining that someone else isn't doing what you want.
You also misinterpreted the money issue. What I was saying is that the developers time is limited, VERY limited, they have lives outside of NS2, so what little time the CAN put into ns2 is already taken up with WAY more important things than what you're requesting... If this issue is so important to you, YOU do it.
yeah sorry the welsh wizard i only moved to the uk 2 years ago im still learning (english is my 3rd language i most recently learned but it dont make it any easier to use my second or first grammatically since i have always had trouble from dyslexia since a young age maybe why i convey what i mean in single pictures easier) i do try very hard to get the point across but some information is to technical for average player since we go into detail about the core game files in question etc. i do beg my pardon for making this hard on you (it was on me most part of life and will continue i assume unless magical cure exist to type better)
Sorry but this is just an excuse for laziness. I am not talking about grammatics or orthography (English isn't my first language either, so I make a lot of mistakes aswell), I am talking about putting a full stop at the end of sentences, don't create overly long sentences without reason and use capital letters after a full stop or for certain words (like "I" or "UK").
You could also use some basic formatting, so it's not just a brick of text. You don't need any language skills to do any of this, but it makes reading A LOT easier and faster.
My answer was kind of: I would like to have that list of correct devs then! (as a joke since apparently i have been going to the wrong dev) but i think i talked to most people that exist of ns2 so glad to get a chance to meet you! i fully grasped the idea of writing down every change so it is easy to follow and confirm the Pro´s over the cons. Trust me there is not a single con so the List of changes will be easy to produce for something like this plus there is millions of copies of the original files so nothing ever gets lost in the process, only improved upon. Developers work on the game as a job and go home to live another life but i would not be surprised how much of ns2 spills over into it as a result of working on such a big and ambitious project. Even for just us players i even dreamt ns2 once so that goes to show but yeah nothing left to discuss i will make file improvements and you just hook me up with "the guy" if you know any.
Can you put your gigantic images in spoiler tags pls
i wrote before "sorry for images" plus "make it spoiler" if possible on other topics since i did not see the spoiler button or command to spoil the image, but since picture button is there that is the one i used. don't worry about the images in the chat they are far less than the 500 mb+ i could optimize for you in-game every time you feel like playing or map changes. And the long text is how many kb data? I'm more concerned over the huge overkill assets of ns2 and the way it will load the massive files into the game. i can make all the textures double the file size to increase the load times but that has already been done, not by me though, i'm just the guy who is trying to reverse it if only by just a few %
this is for welsh wizard: I think i just have the habit of writing it all down in large blocks so i can put in down all my ideas fast into text if im doing something else at the same time so i don't expect it to be perfectly coherent (i even know some cool words) lol Moving on to the 32 mb pictures of the skybox that can literally be 2 mb or less, that would improve load times for as many textures as you want to optimize, it can be 10 it can be 100 but none of them are yet optimized. This is what i'm suggesting not really asking for a miracle to happen or anything even agreed to put in the work so I will now give this a last shot to try explain what i meant in a way we can all relate to and understand:
Would you agree it would be better for everybody if a poorly written 32 sentences long text was re-written into a neat and compiled super fast readable 3 sentance version that still holds exactly the same information as before?
BeigeAlert Technical artistic direction, 3D Art & Content tools
Ghoul High-level engineering & game-play script focus
IronHorse Quality Assurance manager & technical support
McGlaspie Engineering direction, build & network infrastructure
Obraxis Animation/CG
rantology Artistic direction
WasabiOne Operation direction, Game-play direction
Also Samoose was added recently, but i'm not 100% sure on what his role is, I know its something code related.
As this is an Art thing, you'd need to go to beige or rant to discuss, but rant is occupied a lot with RL and I believe she also works on subnautica, and beige is dealing with a LOT at the moment, soooo.... erm, Maybe Psyk, Zavaro or Runestorm could help you out (i'm sure there are more, but atm no names come to mind )
Getting the job done is what is most important imo, I'd be willing to chip in and deal with some of the map side of the changes, making sure all the official maps do what they are supposed to... i'm sure others would be willing to help out too, but I honestly just don't see this being a HUGE change, there are other things that I would consider way more important, mean sure, its an annoyance, but how much of a difference would this really make, realistically?
NintendowsJoin Date: 2016-11-07Member: 223716Members, Squad Five Blue
Could always make it a mod, no? Changing .material files is pretty easy. You stand a much better chance of seeing your hard work being used as a mod than sending it to UWE.
Comments
There are also multiple instances of props, which look identical, e.g. models/props/biodome/biodome_fan_01.model and the eclipse fan model.
The problem is, you'd not only have to combine materials whereever possible, which is already a lot of work,
but you also need to edit all the maps, that used the deleted (duplicate) assets, which are now combined with others.
bonus scenario from minutes ago, in 20 second (open and resave all files without alpha) literally 20 mb that's 1 mb per second looking into this (great return of investment 1:1 ratio improvement haha even better judging the filesize) i would not mess around to much with skybox because it is stretched around the ENTIRE map on descent but the little bit on the right shows a selection (2024x2024 massive white alpha map embedded in all of the skyboxes)
all number (2) is actually the original pictures incase somebody wanna paste it over or officially use them after physically saving an invisible layer, but because they all are 2k textures that double its size, alpha only decide THE WHOLE picture to be shown at all time so remove some embedded alphas (literal opposite of my proposal mere hours ago BUT in this case and use that is the way to save the MB and optimize it, i don't make the rules i just play along haha
so conclusion to 6 pictures i did this morning was 32 mb, is now 12 on medium optimization 100% the same, and 3!!!!!!!!! MB when i downscale it 1 time, that could be for players ticking in something like LOW LIGHTS in options, yes you need to script 1 option but that will give players ability to have the 3 mb or 12 mb or original HD 32 mb for every official map (i am ready to do it like the person yesterday suggested) got the medium 12 mb version ready and downscale 3 mb verion ready for descent that just happen to be the first folder i open today, the tiny pic on the right i tried 1028x1028 instead of 2048 x 2048 texture. improvement is "EXPERIMENTAL WACKY SUPER TINY TEXTURE PACK, sure 1024x1024 still visually indistinguishable to the naked eye when scaling both of them next to each other to simulate it being drawn from same distance before all 6 was 2mb each now you have FULL entire skybox, 1024x1024 x 6 times! in pixel-span in just 3 MB! yes this is extreme or crazy but it is also possible, now imagine 10 maps? that is 29 mb per map shaved off. i understand they don't want minecraft textures but nobody could tell the difference in the normal map comparison before i dont even need to compare the skyboxes they are legit the same but different scale and no normal depends how many steps of improvement you want i can make.
There is a reason that there is punctuation and capital letters.
Maybe we should hold a yearly presidental election between Kharaa or Humans, Heck even can have our female president that way! it can be broadcasted at the spectator screens like that middle computer in Docking Readyroom
haha winners of mockup election get stars & stripes available badges plus fancy Star-stickers to put all over armors and helmets it could be fun to see a plastered onos with VOTE FOR PRESIDENT FADE that way chances players then want to pimp out the other team would lead to a rigged vote in favor of the other team since we all want to match in game haha. Pretend the marines won and everyone can customize and adapt the stickers where you customize player so everybody wins and can do it! i bet people would come back even if they stopped playing ns2 during the year when they hear hey other candidate is gonna get elected so after win we can all slap some stars on that gorge ass!
I'm aware that some work does get lost in the nether, but it depends on who you're approaching, what they are doing at the time etc. After all the devs are only part time and get paid by the job, not by the hour. So to expect them to be on hand and on demand 24/7 is completely unreasonable.
By offering a helping hand and doing the work yourself, the writing down exactly what it is you've done and why you believe it will help, you can then send the written explanation to all the devs to find the one that you need to discuss it with, after a brief discussion, if you both agree that it is a good thing to implement, boom, it will be implemented.
I don't get what is so difficult to understand here tbh... go to the correct dev + don't act like a dick = profit.
Just as i found out we all play with 100% non-translucent skybox that could be a DXT 1 (small file) but saved as a BIG DXT 5 FILE that ALSO adds alpha layer (with transparency) then the translucent bit is drawn on all 6 files on all layers then makes it turn back to SOLID white non alpha DXT 1 textured base as DXT 5 transparency ends up non-transparent. imagine buying a car painted with a galaxy then cover it in transparent diamond THEN you spray paint all that with the main galaxy again why not simply remove the diamond part (saving space, weight, size, cost yet looks the same) this is what i want to do to the skybox remove the invisible layer and make it fraction of its original size!
"The correct devs"
what a lovely misinterpretation of what I said, congratulations.
What I said was that you should write up a list of what changes you intend to/have made, then send that list to each of the devs (maybe via discord) asking for them to take a few moments to look over that list and direct you to the correct dev to speak to for those specific changes.
Once talking to the correct dev, you then can go more in depth what what you have done/are intending to do, discuss whether its worth the time/effort to do so, weight the pros and cons etc... if after that you both agree that it would be worthwhile, get to work, make the changes, send the files + changelog/list to that same developer and watch as you are thanked for your contributions and your work is put into the game.
I don't understand what is left to discuss here, its been explained, I think its great that you like providing examples of work you could be doing, but instead of actually doing it, you're complaining that someone else isn't doing what you want.
You also misinterpreted the money issue. What I was saying is that the developers time is limited, VERY limited, they have lives outside of NS2, so what little time the CAN put into ns2 is already taken up with WAY more important things than what you're requesting... If this issue is so important to you, YOU do it.
Sorry but this is just an excuse for laziness. I am not talking about grammatics or orthography (English isn't my first language either, so I make a lot of mistakes aswell), I am talking about putting a full stop at the end of sentences, don't create overly long sentences without reason and use capital letters after a full stop or for certain words (like "I" or "UK").
You could also use some basic formatting, so it's not just a brick of text. You don't need any language skills to do any of this, but it makes reading A LOT easier and faster.
i wrote before "sorry for images" plus "make it spoiler" if possible on other topics since i did not see the spoiler button or command to spoil the image, but since picture button is there that is the one i used. don't worry about the images in the chat they are far less than the 500 mb+ i could optimize for you in-game every time you feel like playing or map changes. And the long text is how many kb data? I'm more concerned over the huge overkill assets of ns2 and the way it will load the massive files into the game. i can make all the textures double the file size to increase the load times but that has already been done, not by me though, i'm just the guy who is trying to reverse it if only by just a few %
this is for welsh wizard: I think i just have the habit of writing it all down in large blocks so i can put in down all my ideas fast into text if im doing something else at the same time so i don't expect it to be perfectly coherent (i even know some cool words) lol Moving on to the 32 mb pictures of the skybox that can literally be 2 mb or less, that would improve load times for as many textures as you want to optimize, it can be 10 it can be 100 but none of them are yet optimized. This is what i'm suggesting not really asking for a miracle to happen or anything even agreed to put in the work so I will now give this a last shot to try explain what i meant in a way we can all relate to and understand:
Would you agree it would be better for everybody if a poorly written 32 sentences long text was re-written into a neat and compiled super fast readable 3 sentance version that still holds exactly the same information as before?
BeigeAlert Technical artistic direction, 3D Art & Content tools
Ghoul High-level engineering & game-play script focus
IronHorse Quality Assurance manager & technical support
McGlaspie Engineering direction, build & network infrastructure
Obraxis Animation/CG
rantology Artistic direction
WasabiOne Operation direction, Game-play direction
Also Samoose was added recently, but i'm not 100% sure on what his role is, I know its something code related.
As this is an Art thing, you'd need to go to beige or rant to discuss, but rant is occupied a lot with RL and I believe she also works on subnautica, and beige is dealing with a LOT at the moment, soooo.... erm, Maybe Psyk, Zavaro or Runestorm could help you out (i'm sure there are more, but atm no names come to mind
Getting the job done is what is most important imo, I'd be willing to chip in and deal with some of the map side of the changes, making sure all the official maps do what they are supposed to... i'm sure others would be willing to help out too, but I honestly just don't see this being a HUGE change, there are other things that I would consider way more important, mean sure, its an annoyance, but how much of a difference would this really make, realistically?