Gorge Build Order
Niteowl
Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Join Date: 2002-09-04 Member: 1274Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<div class="IPBDescription">what's your secret?</div> 3-4 nodes/nozzles
2nd hive
3 def chambers
3 movement chambers
put D up for 2nd hive
take mvmt chamber to 1st hive
put D up for 1st hive
cap more nozzles
put forward wall of lame for fades/lerks/skulks to heal at
get some fades to help take out 3rd hive camp with wall of lame support, or healing in the battlefiled
put up 3rd hive
3-4 sensory
quick D for 3rd hive, especially against jetpackers
get another wall of lame support
cap some more nodes
pretty much win all the time with this. anyone got something neater? better? comments?
notice NO OT until 2nd hive is up.
2nd hive
3 def chambers
3 movement chambers
put D up for 2nd hive
take mvmt chamber to 1st hive
put D up for 1st hive
cap more nozzles
put forward wall of lame for fades/lerks/skulks to heal at
get some fades to help take out 3rd hive camp with wall of lame support, or healing in the battlefiled
put up 3rd hive
3-4 sensory
quick D for 3rd hive, especially against jetpackers
get another wall of lame support
cap some more nodes
pretty much win all the time with this. anyone got something neater? better? comments?
notice NO OT until 2nd hive is up.
Comments
as for aliens, usually a marine knifing the res point (as they always do) is asking for a biting so i leave random res points unguarded and spend my money on more res points or upgrades. after all, when your res point gets attacked, all aliens see it and anyone nearby will almost always go to help
If you build just one or two rez nozzles, not only do will you you build the second hive SLOWER than with three (or even four) rez, but once you have built the hive you won't have the resources to build defenses quickly. Once the hive do come online, it will take AGES for anyone to get enough resources to go Fade.
Do the math. Or just look up the articles that has DONE the math.
Oh, bw. I don't build defenses IN hive .. I know the maps, I know the chokepoints, I know where you must build to make sure the marines can't get within siege range of a hive.
Defenses INSIDE the hive is built last, and to protect against jetbos, mainly.
and the defending of chokepoints and putting afew OT to defend against jetpackers is definitly a more advanced tactic <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> just started using it.
you really have to put up a WALL of lame to keep marines out tho, because, more and more, they just jump past it, take the few hits, and go for the hive.
btw, i know someone has posted a question about this, but it wasn't really answered well, imho.
how do ppl deal with high flying jetpackers? especially in really open areas (think ns_bast, Refinery Hive).
the best solution i've seen is a wall of lame at each chokepoint. because once they get into the open...
and no, the entire idea of my build order is NO OT or DTs in the start of the game at all. to get that 2nd hive up.
minimum defense i'd put up would be 2 OT 1 DT = 2 * 14 + 14 = 42, more than halfway to a hive!
to build really properly, you really need to trust your skulks, i even type out where (in TEAM TALK) i'm going to be putting down rez nodes, so the really good and skilled skulks will make it part of their patrol.
it's high risk early, and domination mid, and annihilation late game <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It also gives the team (weak) def upgrades from the get-go, which ain't bad, and either makes em think I'm cool (for having it up so early) or an idiot (for not adding two more right away).
One gorge grabs the nearest/easiest to protect node, then drops a def chamber in the first hive.
2nd gorge heads to the 2nd hive, builds a RT, saves for hive.
As long as you have some competent skulks, that keep the marines from reaching the 2nd hive quickly, then its almost a wrap at that point. By the time the hive is up you've gotten a third and maybe a fourth node capped, with some _minimal defenses at each hive - two off and one or two def.
That's standard tactics for a 6 to 10 player team. Need different order for larger/smaller games.
This gets you a 2nd hive quickly, and the extremely useful defense upgrades quickly. Both of which are needed against marines that have a clue. If they don't, hell, just about any build order works.
Rule of thumb #1: if the gorges haven't built a def chamber by the time my skulk gets 33 resources, go gorge, build it.
Rule of thumb #2: don't go gorge to cap a node. You are needed on offense, and can't afford to have the extra gorge for the time needed to take and keep the node.
*
I alter this build based on the skulks. Skulks keeping the marines off my pudgy tail? Save fast. Getting marines in the area? Build one off chamber, and one def chamber near it. Then save. If you can't fend off the marines with that helping you (jump, dodge, healspray) then too many marines are getting through, the skulks aren't doing their job, and you can't fend them off. At which point, build a chamber on top of some idiot skulk, and go find another server <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
And not listen when we say fewer gorges, and go cap res, 2nd hive first? Sigh...
Besides, planning your building structure more than a couple minutes into the game and not changing it is asking to die. Here's the basic idea:
Get what easy resource towers you can. Try not to take the ones near the marine base until last since they have a shorter life span. Put off building any towers of any type for as long as possible. If the marines are hitting a particular area quite hard that you feel you must keep, then by all means, tower it especially if it's near the hive. Otherwise, keep building RT's until you feel you have expanded as far as you safely can and build a hive then work on upgrades. Don't build a defense tower just because a skulk asks for it, build them when *you* feel they are necessary. Usually, you'll find yourself building at least 2 before it's safe to get a hive anyway given agressive marines.
In summary, follow the RTS model and convert as much resources early on into more resources to ensure you have more than enough later on. Ask your accountant, a small investment in time equals MONEY!!!
Another option is to get the nozzles, and build 2 O and a D at some chokepoint, then 2 O and 2 D at 2nd hive, then save up. This works well only if you know where the choke points are, of course.
Course, this might not be a problem when you're working with your clan on your team or something to protect you, and the marines don't wander off so much. I'm talking mainly about pubs. I'm also not the gambling type.
The fact of the matter is, with a good alien team, you shouldn't need that many resources to start the game. First off, ONE gorge. ALL other members should be skulks, and should REMAIN skulks until the second hive is up. No lerking, no switching to gorge to drop a resource, SKULK.
Secondly, the gorge has to know what he's doing. The gorge is essentially the alien commander, and should be treated as such. If you are new, you go skulk. A bad gorge is like a bad commander. Often I pray for an eject_gorge command.... but I digress.
Simply, the gorge only needs 2 resource nodes.
What I do, every game (and not to toot my horn, but 98% of the time I gorge we win), is start by going gorge near the base, while everyone else skulks. While saving up resources, I keep track of where my skulks are on the map, and where they are under attack. This allows me to know where the marines are leaving their base from for hte most part, so I know which direction I should head (away from the marines).
I then build the first resource chamber along the way to the second hive. After it is done, I continue along the way to the second hive. I inform 1-2 good skulks to stay within range of the second hive, so that if I hear a marine they can go to work. I also inform my skulks of my exact location, so they can quickly come to me for healing. This is very important.
In the second hive, I build the second resource node. By the time the second resource node is done, two things should have happened.
1. I have 14 or so resources now. Time to put down a chamber of some kind. Defense. Now my skulks can take alot more shots, and kill alot more marines. Even with the best skulks, against a good marine team they aren't invulnerable. They need that carapace. If they want healing, skip the regen and come to me, or go to the first hive. Skulks are fast enough that that is effective.
2. Skulks hit 33 resources. THAT is what makes this strategy the best. As long as your skulks are at 33 resources, you will be rolling in the resources. For those that don't know, an alien at max resources will have all the resources that should have gone to them, go to the gorge. So now, the gorge gets ALL the resources from ALL the skulks at max res. You might only have 2 resource nodes, but the resources come in FAST.
Now that the resources are just rolling in, save up for the second hive. No defenses, no offenses, just get that hive up. The skulks are the ones that defend you at this point, that's what they are there for. It is MORE important to defend the gorge, than to stop marines from taking the third hive.
As the second hive is building, i start defending the second hive. Two offense chambers and a defense at the main entrances (or choke point as long as it isn't too far away) or maybe a little more if you are doing really good on the resources. Then save up resources. By the time those defenses are up (your skulks are now at level 3 carapace), the hive should be nearing completion. Let the hive finish, and drop a movement chamber immediately (in the second hive). Drop a little web around the defenses (hide them well). Use the movement chamber and go to the first hive. At this hive, drop a second movement chamber, and drop the same basic defenses.
Now, many things have happened. Both hives are moderately defended, slowing down marines and giving skulks alot more time to get to the hive to defend (if need be). There are movement chambers at each hive. A skulk now only needs to be near one hive to get to the other hive. There are at least 3 defense chambers now for level 3 carapace.
Lastly, you have a team of 33 res skulks. Or at least... they WERE 33 res skulks. Now that the hive is up, within no time at all your *entire team* will be a team of 44+ res skulks. What does that make boys and girls? An entire team of fades, all at once (throw in a lerk if you like). The game is basically over for the marines. This happened SO fast, that we can just attack the marine base and win. Who cares if they have the third hive, right? A team of fades will wreck a marine base, especially with a lerk tossing up umbra. You don't need Onos to win.
In any case, while the skulks are going from 33 to 44+, the gorge needs to move out and cap some more resources. Now that the skulks aren't maxxed out, the resources will be coming in slower. Move to an apropriate spot, take a resource and this time defend it a bit. This resource will most likely be nearer marine territory. Often, it is a good place for the 3rd movement chamber. Informing the team of this, if a hive location comes under attack, they will have a 3rd option to get there (run to the hive, run to the other hive for movement, run to this new movement).
Now the team should be moving to fade... let the fades do the dirty work, clearing marine areas, getting you more resources points, etc.
That's my strat, it has never failed me (unless incompetent skulks, but my strat is based on good teamwork, not bad teamwork).
Now, to talk about other strats....
a) Going gorge when at 33 to drop a resource node.
This is a waste of resources in so many ways. For one, that skulk is now at 0 resources. It will take him a longer time to reach fade than the rest of the team. Second, he is not maxxed out now, so instead of sending res to the gorge for being at max, this skulk will now be sucking up resources. Lastly, there is one more resource node to defend on the map. The skulks should be attacking as much as possible, trying to slow down the marines. Too many places to defend and your skulks will be spread to thin. You want skulks to be able to attack in pairs or groups, spread 'em out and they are less effective.
b) More than one gorge.
I think most people realise now how this isn't a good strat. One, you have one less skulk on the offense or defense. With one hive, respawn is slow, you need as many skulks as possible. Secondly, instead of one gorge sucking in tons of resources from the maxxed skulks, you now have two dividing the spoils. Now, instead of one gorge building things, you have two gorges waiting to build things. The second hive needs to go up ASAP... and believe it or not, one gorge that saves up from the start will build the hive no faster than one gorge that builds up on his own, and then saves (the one gorge will get resources so much faster that it makes up for being alone).
Well, tell me what you think. And read this carefully, please. I've put alot of thought into what I do.
Ravlen
Having the marines completly incapable of leaving their base withotu a nade launcher or siege is such fun.
BlueGhost
Simply, my strat relies on competent players. Players that slow the marines (I can't expect them to stop the marines totally). Keep munching on structures, keep their advance slow, make them waste resources. When they do hit 44, they'll have adren and carapace, so they shouldn't be dieing. Since the fades came so quickly, the marines will have next to no upgrades, and if they did, it would be by sacrificing themselves in other ways.
EDIT: Yes, it IS a risk. That's true. The risk is almost always worth it. Doing ANYTHING in the game is a risk. Hiding is a risk, not hiding, etc...
But I feel it is the best risk to take. Get fades fast, and you have fades VS Light marines. Run in and chop 'em up. If they have HMG's, stay back and acid rocket them, they will die fast. And all during the building, your skulks should be slowing hte marines down. Yes, they will get res points, but they shouldn't get many.
Ravlen
Then I build a second hive, place o and d's around the most likely spots marines would enter.
After it builds, place 2 movements down in main hive and 1 at secondary.
Then I go along the map, place def at spots the marines would most likely come..
I don't like placing def just at resource nodes.. I like to place them up front at a door entrance, so it'll just prevent them from getting there period..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah .. I think you mistype here. Whether you BUILD 2 or 3 res towers (for a total of 3 or 4) is pretty much equivalent. However, HAVING 2 res nodes (ie, building only one) is DEFINATELY slower than building either 2 or 3.
Also note that for large games, you need more than one gorge. About one gorge for every 5 players is pretty good (1 for every four to optimize resource flow, but loosing a skulk early on is pretty bad). In a 10 player game, a single gorge will get 3/12 shares. With two gorges, 3/15. That's means you build two res towers 20 seconds after you would have built the first res tower with one gorge, about.
Of course, large games are FUBAR due to spawn rate and the marine resource model, but OTOH, it just means we can choose how difficult the games we want to play are ... easy aliens at 6v6, easy marines at 12v12.
8v8 works out pretty ok on most maps, IMO. Still, at that size, good marines will beat good aliens.
And as for larger teams, the more aliens the better to have one gorge. More aliens means more skulks, and more resources. Once everyone hits 33 max res, that one lone gorge will have SO many resources, he'll be a super gorge.
I've gorged in 10 on 10 maps, where I was the only gorge, and I was dropping chambers as fast as I could drop 'em. Better to have one extra skulk / fade running around attacking and pushing the marines back, then to have two gorges doing what one gorge can do.
Ravlen
i personally need the 3-4 total RT, well, basically, for alien incompetence. many skulks/fades/lerks WILL die, in my experience. they need to get rez fast, evolve and get those rines.
3-4 total RT is also important to get the chokepoints blocked off, since iv'e been in TOO many pubs where the aliens will not listen to cries for help.
my strat is more risky early on, but much stronger mid and late game.
i think yours has some particularly strong points, but not mutually exclusive to my BO. namely, telling skulks where the movement chambers are.
cheers,
And as for larger teams, the more aliens the better to have one gorge. More aliens means more skulks, and more resources. Once everyone hits 33 max res, that one lone gorge will have SO many resources, he'll be a super gorge.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
On 10v10+, you get more resources than you can effectivly build with as a gorge ... lets see, at 10v10 you get 25 res/min per node about, so about 100 res per minute if you have four resource spots. So having two gorges may allow you to put down the necessary defenses faster.
Though usually, the second gorge never builds in the best spots... I hate it when he builds defenses in the hive first... feeding the siege, I call it.
Personally, I aim to force the marines to tripple siege - two sieges before they can get in range of the hives. Works on most maps - except bast, of course. Tanith is nice - the t-crossing in central access tunnels are the CRUCIAL spot to get up a defensive position in.