Thoughts On Balance And Games...
Nogami
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8512Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8512Members, Constellation
Ok, like many of you, I've played a lot of NS over the last month or so. Rather a lot... Probably too much.... But I'm addicted and I think it's a good thing - lately games have been getting frustrating though, so I'm just going to throw out my $0.02 worth for you to ponder:
- People (even newbies) are realizing that the game is ALL about the alien hives. If you have a smart marine commander, he'll immediately detail 1/2 to 3/4 of his troops off to the nearest hive to secure it. Dumb commanders will immediately start capping all of the resources nearby their main base, which is usually a death sentence for marines (all alien hives have resource points in 'em. Use those instead!). If the marines then manage to make a combined push to a 2nd hive (after phasegating the first), it's game-over for aliens.
- As other posters have said, phasegates are too strong and too fast - they allow the marines to back-up virtually any point on the map nearly instantly. If there could be one thing I'd like modified on the game, this would be it. Make it easier to kill, or make it stop teleporting when it's damaged more than 1/3 of the way, etc. Alternately how about making it damage the marines if they go through and the phasegate health is less than 3/4 of max? After all, jumping through a damaged gate is likely to scramble some of your molecules?
(as an aside, I'd love to see an alien and a marine get "brundle-flied" by jumping into two different gates at the same instant) ;P
- Siege cannons - I love 'em as marine, I hate 'em as alien. I can deal with it ;P. If aliens are so inept to let marines build that close to a hive, well... They deserve what they get. Happened to me as an alien player and my team was obviously at fault for being stupid.
- Players are quick to leave when the going gets rough. When the aliens get 2 hives and fades start showing up en-mass, it's not uncommon for the marines to "F4". Same for when marines have 2 hives locked-down. Once midgame hits and the marines have HA/HMGs, if they get 2 hives, the aliens all F4 without seeing it through to the endgame.
This is a big problem - it's obvious to the players that it's very, very unlikely that it's possible way to turn around a game that has gone that far. There needs to be some sort of additional balance in the game to make it less of a cut-and-dried win/lose. There have been many suggestions for this, but none are perfect. This is perhaps NS's biggest flaw, and one that needs to be corrected immediately.
- Initial rushes are a PITA, particularly if the marines can identify which hive a rush is coming from and delegate 3/4 of their forces in that direction fast (the speed at which skulks rush base DO give marines a good idea where they're coming from based on the map). I've played a few games where the marines were able to just carefully but quickly rush the hive and take it out. Total game time was about 3 minutes. If marines play smart and overlap their fire, and the commander rapidly drops health/ammo on the way, it's a sure-fire win. With no long-range weapons, skulks don't stand a chance. The solution might be to decrease the speed at which the commander can drop health/ammo.
- Finally, I suppose the thing I'd like to see most of all is for a alien player to be able to take the part of the "hive mind" and be able to direct things in the same fashion as the marines. Perhaps not drop supplies and equipment, but be able to coordinate attacks by setting waypoints, possibly triggering "traps" that aliens could set, aiming the target of offense/defense towers and the like. Maybe even controlling what creatures their team could spawn into, or spawn up as.
Anyways, just some thoughts... Get out the knives and go to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
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- People (even newbies) are realizing that the game is ALL about the alien hives. If you have a smart marine commander, he'll immediately detail 1/2 to 3/4 of his troops off to the nearest hive to secure it. Dumb commanders will immediately start capping all of the resources nearby their main base, which is usually a death sentence for marines (all alien hives have resource points in 'em. Use those instead!). If the marines then manage to make a combined push to a 2nd hive (after phasegating the first), it's game-over for aliens.
- As other posters have said, phasegates are too strong and too fast - they allow the marines to back-up virtually any point on the map nearly instantly. If there could be one thing I'd like modified on the game, this would be it. Make it easier to kill, or make it stop teleporting when it's damaged more than 1/3 of the way, etc. Alternately how about making it damage the marines if they go through and the phasegate health is less than 3/4 of max? After all, jumping through a damaged gate is likely to scramble some of your molecules?
(as an aside, I'd love to see an alien and a marine get "brundle-flied" by jumping into two different gates at the same instant) ;P
- Siege cannons - I love 'em as marine, I hate 'em as alien. I can deal with it ;P. If aliens are so inept to let marines build that close to a hive, well... They deserve what they get. Happened to me as an alien player and my team was obviously at fault for being stupid.
- Players are quick to leave when the going gets rough. When the aliens get 2 hives and fades start showing up en-mass, it's not uncommon for the marines to "F4". Same for when marines have 2 hives locked-down. Once midgame hits and the marines have HA/HMGs, if they get 2 hives, the aliens all F4 without seeing it through to the endgame.
This is a big problem - it's obvious to the players that it's very, very unlikely that it's possible way to turn around a game that has gone that far. There needs to be some sort of additional balance in the game to make it less of a cut-and-dried win/lose. There have been many suggestions for this, but none are perfect. This is perhaps NS's biggest flaw, and one that needs to be corrected immediately.
- Initial rushes are a PITA, particularly if the marines can identify which hive a rush is coming from and delegate 3/4 of their forces in that direction fast (the speed at which skulks rush base DO give marines a good idea where they're coming from based on the map). I've played a few games where the marines were able to just carefully but quickly rush the hive and take it out. Total game time was about 3 minutes. If marines play smart and overlap their fire, and the commander rapidly drops health/ammo on the way, it's a sure-fire win. With no long-range weapons, skulks don't stand a chance. The solution might be to decrease the speed at which the commander can drop health/ammo.
- Finally, I suppose the thing I'd like to see most of all is for a alien player to be able to take the part of the "hive mind" and be able to direct things in the same fashion as the marines. Perhaps not drop supplies and equipment, but be able to coordinate attacks by setting waypoints, possibly triggering "traps" that aliens could set, aiming the target of offense/defense towers and the like. Maybe even controlling what creatures their team could spawn into, or spawn up as.
Anyways, just some thoughts... Get out the knives and go to it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
But NS in an RTS, in any RTS your stratagy has to be to damage their offencive power.
Phase gates are rather good, but I'm not seeing the marines be completly un-defeatable by the aliens, on the whole 'balance' (the relative power of the two teams) rather than 'game play' (how fun the game is due to how it plays) seems fine, i'm not seeing aliens or maines dominate except on the servers where a stupid person grabs the com and tries to build a TF and 4 turrets at every res point.
How about alien and marine jump into it and you get a alien/marine hybrid thing out the other end <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Turning games around isn't THAT hard, the problem is you HAVE to go offencive, what normally happens is the com goes 'ho no we have fades attacking our base' they then eather spam HMG and say 'kill d3h f4d3z!' or they spam turrets/TF's and the game takes about a year to finish. Infact one of the largest problems is everybodys defeatist attitude about it, you're never going to turn it around if you don't think its possible.
What they should do is stay calm tell the LA/LMG's to rush the fades in groups with the hope of chasing them off/killing them off. And also equip a select 3-4 marines with HA/HMG + 1 HA/GL and go siege a hive, in maps like hera the second you get up your invincible HA group you can just walk streight to the 'position which sieges two hives' and then knock the aliens right back to skulks. Well organized HA/HMG + 1HA/GL are really only stopped by a brutal and suisidal attack from MASSED fades, and if the fades leave base to go mass you can put a load of cannon fodder (LA/LMG guys) up in front of the HAs <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Initial rushes are annoying, if something was done to make them weaker that would be nice but the alien initial rush is easy to defend against IF you're not all nonces, marine initial rush really messes them up if it fails...
Aliens don't need a top down view to do this, use VC and the hive sight and a good knowledge of the map and you can tell people what needs doing, with parasite its even easier. The thing with aliens is EVERYBODY needs a reasonable situation awareness, its just the aliens 'thing'. When i play gorge i often try directing stratagy, I have to ask things like 'is it possible you can take X location?' But nothing to stop me going 'all skulks pin them in base after watching our first wave ALL die instantly for no kills' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost
As I was reading I had to do a double take on the author because I have thought, I had posted it late last night without remembering.
Those are my thoughts exactly. I was talking to a buddy 2 days ago saying that the game wasn't as deep as it could be as it is all about the hives. I even said "It is just a little cut and dried". LOL
Also the comment about people giving up prematurely is right on the money. I will be playing and we start losing a bit and right away some loser who thinks he is l33t will start saying, "Well this is over, F4 everyone, everyone F4."
It makes me so mad as it totally ruins the game. I don't quit, I fight until I can no longer spawn. Of course the n00bish alien timer after losing the hives raped the game of comebacks anyway.
But you are right this is the chief problem and it needs to be fixed.
I think I do pretty well as a commander too.
The only problem with that stratigy, is you <b>need</b> everyone to listen to you, or it wont work.
I have yet to command a single public game of NS - quite frankly, I know I'd be voted off for not baby sitting my "team".
Other than that, very noteable points Nogami.
You make some very interesting points. Allow me to adress them one by one.
- Value of Hives:
Yes, they are, by design, some of the most valuable structures of the game.
I would however not go so far as to say that one or even two tightly capped hives means inevitable alien death. It is difficult, but by securing two hives, a base and most certainly at least one additional nozzle, the marines forces and resources are spread out pretty far. It takes a highly coordinated team, but joint strikes on at least two bases (at least one of them a hive) at the same time can wear the marines down.
This is of course only valid for coordinated matches. In pubgaming, I agree that a secured hive is most certainly a ticket to ride for the marines.
- Phasegates:
I'm inclined to call the phasegates balanced because they can only be dispatched in secured areas (where things like buildtimes don't count that much either way), but following that argumentation, I can not see why their HPs shouldn't be decreased a bit to make them even less useful in the unprotected offense, where they clearly don't belong.
The idea of a slight healthloss in the case of a damaged gate is really interesting.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If aliens are so inept to let marines build that close to a hive, well... They deserve what they get.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll quote you on that <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
- Midgames:
I agree that right now, there isn't much of a midgame. Unfortunately, this is partly due to the 'F4'ing you mentioned: Players realized about two weeks ago that if condition a) or b) takes place, they've most probably lost - and so, if they see that condition, they leave.
Unfortunately, this now cements that old problem: As soon as the aliens have all three hives, at least two marines will leave, thus literraly crippling their teammates, which might have still had a chance of winning. I've seen some games with constant playernumbers, and they had much more of a midgame than the usual match.
I'd say let's give the players some more time to get used to the idea that their game might not yet be lost before we start 'enforcing' midgames.
- Rushes:
Yes, rushes can be victorious, but have you ever seen two successful rushes in a row? If the enemy team is alert, they have good chances of ambushing and defeating the rushers. It is therefore not actually 'unbalanced'.
Please accept that rushs are a valid tactic - for both sides.
- Alien commander:
No, never, period.
Both teams are supposed to be extremely asynchronous, which would be changed by an alien hivemindplayer. If you want to command against a second human commander, wait for v2 and Human vs. Human.