Endgame Balance
Big_Game_Hunter
Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10539Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10539Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">some suggestions</div> I think most everyone can agree that after a certain point in every game, there is very little that the losing team can do to win. It is either sit around and wait to die, or make vain suicide rushes; this is especially true for marines. It makes the endgame very frustrating and boring. To resolve this, I propose that both teams be given some kind of last ditch objective they can try for to still salvage a victory. Here are some ideas:
Marines:
- A self destruct objective. There could be a point on the map very far away from the spawn where you have to bring some kind of activator from the opposite side of the map to start a self destruct sequence. The marine carrying the activator could be slow or unable to attack or some other handicap requiring much support from his teammates. The self destruct could possibly only kill the aliens to make it feel more like a victory.
- An objective that would temporarily give the marines some kind of special weapons or abilities that gave them a chance against 3rd hive aliens and abilities.
- A satellite "neutron bomb" strike, gas poisionous to all alien organisms, or nanite based attack that would completely eliminate all alien structures in a hive location.
Aliens:
- A hive sacrifice that would sacrifice the last hive in exchange for a "bloodlust" ala Warcraft that would a rush realistic against heavy fortifications as well as giving the aliens no other option but to rush.
- A "sprawl" attack in the hive locations. All the hives have the organic matter in them, perhaps at a cost of 100+ resources 1 or 2 gorges couls induce it to destroy all marine structures in or near the hive. After having used so many resources it would be a long time before they could save for a hive again.
Notes: All objectives would probably only become available very late in the game, keyed to how many hives the winning team controls, how much resources they have, how many nodes they have, or how much territory they control. They would always be difficult/expensive to achieve and counterable by the enemy team. The idea would be to give the losing team something to try for and something to keep the winning team on their toes and not get lazy like they always do. Also, each map could have their own last-ditch objectives, they dont always have to be the same.
Please instead of criticizing my ideas, make your own suggestions for making the endgame more interesting. Personally, I think a last ditch objective would be very fun.
Marines:
- A self destruct objective. There could be a point on the map very far away from the spawn where you have to bring some kind of activator from the opposite side of the map to start a self destruct sequence. The marine carrying the activator could be slow or unable to attack or some other handicap requiring much support from his teammates. The self destruct could possibly only kill the aliens to make it feel more like a victory.
- An objective that would temporarily give the marines some kind of special weapons or abilities that gave them a chance against 3rd hive aliens and abilities.
- A satellite "neutron bomb" strike, gas poisionous to all alien organisms, or nanite based attack that would completely eliminate all alien structures in a hive location.
Aliens:
- A hive sacrifice that would sacrifice the last hive in exchange for a "bloodlust" ala Warcraft that would a rush realistic against heavy fortifications as well as giving the aliens no other option but to rush.
- A "sprawl" attack in the hive locations. All the hives have the organic matter in them, perhaps at a cost of 100+ resources 1 or 2 gorges couls induce it to destroy all marine structures in or near the hive. After having used so many resources it would be a long time before they could save for a hive again.
Notes: All objectives would probably only become available very late in the game, keyed to how many hives the winning team controls, how much resources they have, how many nodes they have, or how much territory they control. They would always be difficult/expensive to achieve and counterable by the enemy team. The idea would be to give the losing team something to try for and something to keep the winning team on their toes and not get lazy like they always do. Also, each map could have their own last-ditch objectives, they dont always have to be the same.
Please instead of criticizing my ideas, make your own suggestions for making the endgame more interesting. Personally, I think a last ditch objective would be very fun.
Comments
2. If the aliens have gotten the third hive, it's over for the Marines anyway. Just as it should be if the Marines have secured both hives and they have HA and all that stuff.
3. ....Uh... No.
4. You would want to sacrifice a hive why?
5. See #3.
Sorry for the criticism, but the game is pretty much fine the way it is. If the dev team decides to make a new gameplay type, whatever. I would personally just like a few more maps. Hopefully in the next major release there will be some new ones ^^.
Most other mods strive for balance at all points, because they don't WANT one team to gain a permanent advantage. NS games don't end until one team wins, so something like this would just prolong it.... It's better to just finish the game and start a new one...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the aliens have gotten the third hive, it's over for the Marines anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
EXACTLY! Who wants to play a game thats "over?"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You would want to sacrifice a hive why?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because you have no hope of winning left. Might as well try something instead of waiting for death. After all, isn't a whole team going to the readyroom the equivalent of sacrificing the hive?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NS games don't end until one team wins,something like this would just prolong it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what I am talking about, too much unnecessary prolonging. That is why we need something a team could pore all it's effort in as a last ditch attempt that, if failed, would lose the game very soon after due to the massive commitment of resources (men, structrues, and money). The winning team would of course be able to defend against whatever you tried and it would keep them from slacking off at the end; they would still have the same chance of winning as long as they didnt get lazy.
Bottom line: People do not like being the helpless prey against a vastly superior force. It is simply not fun, yet this is the scenario whice occupies at least 20% of most games.
I do.... The thought that somehow through some miracle you may be able to fight off those ONOS or HA/HMG marines, and get your team back in the game.... It's happened enough that this possibility can't be dismissed.
True Story from a few days ago:
We were aliens.. had just lost the second hive and our one remaining was about to be under attack.
I snuck behind enemies using a fade and took out 1 of the 2 spawn portals, while I was working on the second one, the comm popped his head out and pot shot me, I fired 2 acid-rockets and killed him. I took out the other spawn portal and then killed the Command center. It was then just a matter of cleaning up the mess....
(FYI, that was the first time I had really taken out some metal, I usually serve a supporting role)
Now, were the marines not playing well that game, yes.
Was I lucky they hadn't built any d. for the base? yes
That's not the point..
The point is it happened, and if we had tried to end the game faster, then we would have lost, the game was over and my finest moment in NS wouldn't have occured... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
My 2 cents..
If the commander feels there is no hope in winning he can recycle the ips.
end of story.
-Lazerus
That aside, you have to remember that this is an RTS game, not a FPS. The game is won and lost through territory, resources, and overarching tactics. No matter how great the fraggers are on your team, you will still lose if they dont work together, defend when needed, expand, build, tech, ect. And because this is an RTS game, there is a 'point of no return' which once passed essentially guaruntees victory for one team.
Riddle me this 2: Would chess be the incredible and immensely deep game it is if upon losing all but 2 pieces you can roll a die and have a 1/6 chance of instantly winning?
Um, excuse me? Perhaps it was fun the first time, but the more you play it the more tiresome it becomes. That is exactly why people are increasingly resigining the game by going to the ready room, a trend almost certain to continue growing. And if not enough people go, then you are left with 3 or 4 people in the ready room with nothing to do but wait, and an even more overmatched losing team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Would chess be the incredible and immensely deep game it is if upon losing all but 2 pieces you can roll a die and have a 1/6 chance of instantly winning? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a deeply flawed analogy; to apply it more accurately to the situation: Would chess be a fun game if, after checkmate, your opponent continued on to take your king, and then you had to keep playing as he took all your remaining pieces? And if one loses all but 2 pieces in chess, there is still the opportunity to stalemate. As for "1/6 chance" nowhere have I implied luck should be a factor or an "instant win" be desirable. Summing up my ideas as "a roll of the dice" is totally inaccurate, by that same logic the whole game is simply a roll of the dice, as all I have proposed is additional tactics that can be tried.
Regarding resigning: A temporary fix at best. What is the point of having all the higher end tech, if as soon as it is used people resign? Resigning a game that is individual based (such as chess or an RTS) is perfectly acceptable, but when it comes to a team game, resigning simply must be placed in the hands of ALL the players to be fair, and currently that is not the case.
Regarding comebacks: The exception to the rule. For every miraculous comeback there are 50 conventional losses, and there is almost always extentuating circumstances surrounding the comeback, such as a disparity in the teams (skill or number), dropping of a key player or players, a bug (such as the siege bug), etc.
Regarding comebacks: The exception to the rule. For every miraculous comeback there are 50 conventional losses, and there is almost always extentuating circumstances surrounding the comeback, such as a disparity in the teams (skill or number), dropping of a key player or players, a bug (such as the siege bug), etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No arguement... but its the chance of come-back that makes the endgame worth playing.... and is a valuable component to the over-all game...
I for one love the idea of a self destuct button on the ship. I can just imagine that one last marine standing running full keal to the other end of the map with 2 onos on him as he tries to hit that button lol. I <i>hardly</i> think it would ruin gameplay. Do I think it should be available ASAP? no, I think it has to be something the COM has to tech to and be very expansive.
And I do find it very boring to rush a group of HA/HMGS as a skulk as they sit outside your last remaining hive building a Seige Cannon just to finish you off. I know in that situation turning the game is almost impossible, but I would like to go out with a bang, and maybe take 1 HA with me.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. No. CS is bad.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agent, really, your lucky im not a mod.
$.02
Surrendering has been sugested by some and pressing F4 is effectively just that.
What i think would be nice is having a little ingame Cut-scene at the end. If you have played DoD 3.0 you probably know the kind im talking about. A little congratulatorry scene of rejoicing marines with captures aliens in cages being probed by those regular HL sceientists. ok.. maby not with the sceientists, but you get the picture. And also a breif sad cutscene for the aliens or vice versa if they win.
This way if the enemy team surrenders, you still get some satisfaction when winning instead of just poping back into readyroom.
Could also mean a lot of hard work without that much payoff, but hey.. its just an idea
Anyways, have fun on the battlefield. I know i am <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think we need to address this dynamic, basic defense at 2 hives should not be end game for marines or aliens. I suggest a better game would be had if marines get high tech weapons and aliens get higher evolve abilityes before the game is over.
Unfortunatly the game is over before this happens enmasse.
Wrong. That is exactly what he is suggesting.
Let me clue everyone in here. This is an RTS/FPS type game. There is only winning and losing. There is no in between. Because this is an RTS/FPS game, there is this "point of no return" that will be extremely hard to overcome, but that is called life. The endgame is called the endgame for a reason. You can't change that. Stop trying to. A HA/HMG marine is supposed to be able to just totally own a skulk. An onos is supposed to be able to just plow down a whole line of marines. That's why it takes a little while to acquire both of them.
The endgame is there for a reason... if you're not having fun in the endgame.... well, losing is never as much fun as winning, but to be honest, you can still have fun during the endgame. It just requires a little change in attitude.
Amen to that! Jetpacks for all!
B) Comebacks are supposed to be difficult. The end-game is brutally overbalanced in the hopes of facilitating a quick, relatively painless death once one team has clearly won the game. Marines turtled in spawn will be torn apart by bile bombs, spore clouds, Xenocides, and Onos; 1-hive aliens will be shredded by HMGs and blown to pieces by grenades while only denting their teeth on Heavy Armor and jumping in vain at the feet of jetpack marines sailing overhead.
Wrong. That is exactly what he is suggesting.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No its not.
Never <i>once</i>did he/I say anything about the game needing an "in between" buddy. I know perfectly well how NS is intended to be played.
The dynamics of the game near the end for the loosing team is a blemish on the game. Sure, if everyone who played NS was as perceptive as you Im sure they would all stand grinnin end game as they died. This, however, isn't reality. It also takes away from the victory if the oppoing team just gives up. As long as theres some sort of objective, or something to <i>do</i>, the players will keep playing even if they are going to loose. And to make another point, or to "clue" you in, no one has ever brought FPS and RTS into a game this way, so I have no idea what your arguing about. I don't mind being wrong/having people with oposing ideas;however, being ridiculed without a reason is imbecilic.
I like this idea a lot seeing as how it would raise the number of people required to give up, but what about the comm recycling the portals or people still going f4?
Also, it still doesnt address the inherent dissatisfaction of an incomplete game. It is very irritating as a winning team to have worked so hard only to have the other team quit before you can enjoy your well-earned victory.
If the commander feels there is no hope in winning he can recycle the ips.
end of story.
-Lazerus <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree. Hitting F4 is pretty lame albeit necessary in this game, unless your a just starting n00b and havn't realized how boring it is to Skulk vs a HA/HMG or to LMG a Fade/Onus. However, hitting F4 can get you kicked by the admin, as well as flamed at by other players. Damned if you do damned if you don't.
As for the commander recycling the respawn points? I've done this once, after becomming commander half-way through a game, AND after telling my team in clear terms that we had ZERO chance of winning against the swarms of Fades and utter lack of ressources (had maybe 2 HMG's on the field... and my marines couldn't manage to do anything with them... to be expected since a few acid rockets will easily tear a Marine apart). So what happens? I get flamed by half my team for conceding defeat! Geez. So many cannon fodder types out there.
As for comebacks... well, that of course will happen every now and then because of some n00bish mistake by the other team, the loss of skilled player, etc. as people have posted all over here. But, I think you'll all agree that at least 90% of the time these things don't happen, and it's just a long agonizing defeat. Don't post anecdotal evidence here. Please people. Show a little scientific litteracy. It's the common case that counts not the unlikely and rarely occuring one, otherwise people on the losing team wouldn't be quiting like mad the way they do.
Solutions:
1) A self-destruct for the Marines sounds cool. Almost a CS type thing! Cover me, I'm planting the bomb ;-)
I can just picture the Aliens trying to defuse it afterwards...
Seriously though, this would be an interesting last ditch option, if it required the commander to recycle his Command Chair and Respawn Points first (really really last ditch effort), to get this super bomb. And then the long and dangerous trek to the other side of the map would ensue.... I love it ;-)
2) The Aliens could sacrifice their last hive to all become Onus for 5 min or until they die ;-)
Mmmm, I hear some Marines grumbling.... okay, that doesn't work.
How about a Hive upgrade then? Upgrade to hive level 2 (80 credits?), and get Skulks with leap, Lerks with umbra, and Gorges with Web? Then if you get the 2nd hive, the upgrade no longer applies. This would potentially give the Aliens a chance to do something when the Marines have secured two hive locations. Also, leaping as a Skulk is fun as hell, so I'd be far more relunctant to hit F4 ;-)
Hope something changes in the next few days, cause my exams will be over on Dec. 20, and I'll need something to get madly addicted on... and NS, as it stands, is losing major favor with respect to the almighty CounterStrike and even *gasp* paperback books.
B) Comebacks are supposed to be difficult. The end-game is brutally overbalanced in the hopes of facilitating a quick, relatively painless death once one team has clearly won the game. Marines turtled in spawn will be torn apart by bile bombs, spore clouds, Xenocides, and Onos; 1-hive aliens will be shredded by HMGs and blown to pieces by grenades while only denting their teeth on Heavy Armor and jumping in vain at the feet of jetpack marines sailing overhead.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That is exactly the point. A lot of ppl talk about balance and they don't really know what they are talking about. If at any time everything would be perfectly balanced this would not be a rts but a pure fps game. The rts component is there to get yourself into the position to be the team with the "overbalanced" spawns/weapons/whatsoever. So balance needs to be "in the middle", which means when aliens have captured one hive (and have 2 then) and marines have captured one hive. At this time you have fades (without bilebomb) against ha/hmg marines which is quite balanced (from my point of view a little bit to much towards marines since with gren launchers and siege guns they have formidable anti structure weapons while aliens completely lack any of them and have to hope on bad turret placement).
Once one team gets one additional hive (which means 3 for aliens or 2 for marines) they have the possibilities to end this game quickly (while they still can loose if they are not carefull). Aliens then will have bilebombs and onos and marines then will only have to care about skulks and lerks without umbra and poison.
So midgame is at least roughly balanced and endgame (as soon as either marines have 2 hives or aliens have 3 hives) is made to give the dominating team the possibility to end the game quickly. The only problems here are:
1. teams who do not use this possibility to finish the game and rather "play around" with their now weaker and easier to controll enemy,
2. unbalanced maps like ns_bast where marines can turret farm their base and siege 80% of the map from there. With only bottleneck entrances to their base making rushes impossible they can hold the base for hours even against onos.
3. that it can happen in long games that aliens get 3 hives, dominate the map but marines still have lots of resources. Since marines, unlike aliens, don't have any hivebased restrictions, they can still use their ha,hmg,gl etc to give even onos and fades with bilebomb quite a hard time.
Hmm - maybe only 60 res for that. But it would make it more worthwhile playing on 1 hive
This discussion really seems to have gotten off track. I make NO OBJECTION to the fact that the dominant team should OF COURSE be strong. I apologise for the use of the word balance in the topic it may have been misleading. All I have ever been discussing is the opportunity for the losing team to have something real to do while they are getting their butts kicked, and thusly make the game a bit more bearable for them and encourage people to play to the end. I have not ever objected to any actual balance issues between aliens and marines.
look, some times the game is just over (no NOT at 2 hives fades!= GG)
I actualy REALY like
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How about a Hive upgrade then? Upgrade to hive level 2 (80 credits?), and get Skulks with leap, Lerks with umbra, and Gorges with Web? Then if you get the 2nd hive, the upgrade no longer applies. This would potentially give the Aliens a chance to do something when the Marines have secured two hive locations. Also, leaping as a Skulk is fun as hell, so I'd be far more relunctant to hit F4 ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
it seemes like a realy plousible idea (posibly)
the one problem is that it only realy gives you more defence, no real offence (leap might help but not much)
b/c rem,ember all you get is web and umbra and they realy are D weapons (well umbra is good for O but only with fades realy)
meh posibly a few lerks, one of them using ubra and the others spiking
And if you're going to give the aliens upgrades when they're down... What about the marines? You can't do this to one side and not the other.