Granted all armoour Vs all Weapons, id go all Weapons if im sieged in base by fades, run out die alot and kill fades, but if i was on the offensive at a hive, id rather have lvl 1-2 armour with lvl 1-2 weapons so that I not only can stand an extra skulk bite, but can damage the hive while im there. Plus as a Jetpacker, I need the armour boost more than you HA toting womenfolk in that I CAN outmanouver most aliens, but Fades shoot me with acid, so i need at least something to keep me alive while I jet around his head and lay shotgun blasts into him. (The shotgun unupgraded is nasty, upgraded to level 3 is scary, but level 2 of each and im a happy camper/commando)
Armor first to let them survive that second bite. Two weapons because the first one has no effect on LMG damage vs. uncarapaced aliens. Two armor to let them survive the third bite, and the second Onos hit. (The second armor boost is nearly worthless on its own, so push to the third ASAP.) Finish off the weapons, just because. No huge benefit to the third weapon boost, but if the points are there, may as well do it.
Of the two, I value armor more. The increase in total survivability is tremendous for light marines, and it's free. Upgrading weapons, on the other hand, doesn't promote as marked a benefit.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>The calculations for all of this are here.</a>
Motion tracking helps get around the problem of ambushed troops dying, but even with that, I've often been in situations where I've been fighting more than one thing at a time, and take a bite here and there. Fully upgraded light armor lets you take twice as much damage before dropping, at least from the high-damage attacks, and living marines are worth much more than dead ones.
Not that I'm putting weapons upgrades down, I prefer passive upgrades to being handed a HMG and knowing that I'll drop in no time to Mister Fade outside and watch those resources fly out the window. Passive upgrades rule, and I see a losing game on the horizon whenever I'm playing with a commander who doesn't research. However, humans are fragile and tasty, and you have to armor them up so they can survive long enough to dish out the damage, just like you should only give the nice guns to someone in heavy armor or a jetpack unless the situation is dire.
I think the upgrades depend on who your playing with, and or against. When I know I have good marines always a weapon upgrade or 2 first... They know how to shoot, and stay away from skulks, also if they do get fades, the lmgs will take em down. I like the armor upgrades for more of the HPBs out there and folks with no awareness or aim. If you get early motion tracking is another reason to upgrade weapons first... 1 or 2 armor upgrades first would be good if you already are facing fades, with a weak gunned and under resourced team.. just my ideas on that...
I like to take the armor upgrades, because my marines live a lot longer. You don't need weapon upgrade against skulks because they can be killed easily(hint: don't reload switch to your pistol and then your knive) and armor helps a lot against the splash damage of fades. What's the use of doing a lot of damage if you die before you empty your clip.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i don't understand why you would want armor over weapons. if you can't even kill the alien, what's the point of living longer? lets say you and another marine spot a fade and both begin attacking it with level 0 lmgs. you both fire 50 rounds at the fade, and it's still advancing at you. it takes one of you down as you both reload, then turns and flees. they gained a kill, you lost a marine.
what's more important to you: having a marine survive a few swipes/acid rockets longer, or killing a fade and stealing those 44 resources from the aliens? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah but consider the same scenario with upgraded weapons instead-
You and another marine spot a fade and you have weapon upgrades but no armor upgrades. He kills both of you using splash damage well before his energy bar runs out- and he didn't even have to leave the corner he was peeking around. Because of dying so fast, you didn't even get to shoot half of your clip. While you were certainly doing +3 damage a shot, you did less damage overall.
If you had had more armor you might have lasted until you retreated, or until his energy ran out, at which point you could counter attack with more chance of success.
<!--QuoteBegin--Leusugi+Dec 21 2002, 07:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Leusugi @ Dec 21 2002, 07:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->i don't understand why you would want armor over weapons. if you can't even kill the alien, what's the point of living longer? lets say you and another marine spot a fade and both begin attacking it with level 0 lmgs. you both fire 50 rounds at the fade, and it's still advancing at you. it takes one of you down as you both reload, then turns and flees. they gained a kill, you lost a marine.
what's more important to you: having a marine survive a few swipes/acid rockets longer, or killing a fade and stealing those 44 resources from the aliens? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah but consider the same scenario with upgraded weapons instead-
You and another marine spot a fade and you have weapon upgrades but no armor upgrades. He kills both of you using splash damage well before his energy bar runs out- and he didn't even have to leave the corner he was peeking around. Because of dying so fast, you didn't even get to shoot half of your clip. While you were certainly doing +3 damage a shot, you did less damage overall.
If you had had more armor you might have lasted until you retreated, or until his energy ran out, at which point you could counter attack with more chance of success.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> true, but again with just armor upgrades, what chance do you have of killing the fade anyway? even if you do survive the 5-8 acid rockets fired at you, your gun is too puny to take the fade down. the fade will just turn and run before you can even put up chase (that is, if they're smart). therefore, you're left with 2 marines who are either both dead or both hurt. either way, this gives the aliens a huge tactical advantage over you (they lose nothing).
marines retreating? i hate raining medpacks on marines. 2 resources is a lot when it all comes down to it. again, aliens lose nothing (free healing), you lose resources fixing up marines. aliens win. kill them fast, or you won't kill them at all.
"the fade will just turn and run before you can even put up chase (that is, if they're smart)."
sure, you'll get a couple of shots at the fade. it doesn't mean you'll hit all of them, nor does it mean you'll be able to fire all your rounds at it anyway. smart fade players will run before their health reaches 50. doing otherwise is stupid, and a waste of resources--that is, unless they die trying to take down a siege/other highly important area.
you have a far better chance of taking a fade down with weapon upgrades, not by absorbing 4-5 extra acid rockets.
2 marines standing side by side trying to take out a fade is a bad plan, have 1 distract him and another try to get behind him. I always try to ambush a fade unless hes at spawn, then I just lbindly rush him if he starts to run I chase, if hes low on energy no blink, I can usually just tag behind long enough to let off a few pistol rounds as he turns another corner. Id prefer armour over weapons anyday, it means you can stand toe to toe and dish out damage longer (rather than more damage over a shorter timespan)
Well it depends if I'm playing commander or playing as a marine. If I play as a marine, I personaly prefer weapons because I wanna kill the Skulk before it gets too close. I'm not trying to brag but I hardly get surprised by Skulks; I'm a pretty good marine. It's just more easier and convient to kill alien quickly at long range than when he's next you to trying to biting your **obscenity** and your trying to dodge like mad. However, if I was playing as commander I would go for armor first because I want my marines to survive longer but that's subject to change depending on what my marines want.
Playing as a marine I want: Weapons, weapons, armor, armor, armor, weapons. Playing as a commander I do: Armor, armor, weapons weapons, armor weapons.
I prefer WEAPONS. I'm a good shot and I ate reloading during midbattle. I don't need better defense since my best defense is my offense. It really depends on how your team is. If they are dying too much: armor. If they are rocking then get weapons.
Also mainly getting weapons upgrade first is to combat the alien carapace upgrade.
I also agree with whoever said that getting upgrades is more important then trying to get HA/HMG too early.
I agree with Narfwak and all the others before who have proposed a balance. Both upgrades are absolutely crucial, but if I had to choose, I'd choose armor. Here's why:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the weapon upgrades only bump the damage per bullet by one. Fire ten shots, you'd being doing ten more damage than normal (with a level one upgrade.) But, if the armor upgrade allows you to fire just one more shot with the LMG that does 11 damage per bullet (is this right?), then you've just upgraded your damage by 11 (by just getting off one more shot.)
Usually, the extra armor gives you the chance to fire off several bullets, ten, fifteen, fifty (if you survive two bites, and dance around the skulk that surprised you... and can't hit worth anything...)
So let's say you fire off a clip of lmg ammo with a level one weapons upgrade. That's 50 points of extra damage, an appreciable amount of damage for sure. However, if the armor allows you to survive a little longer, you'd only need to fire 5 extra shots to get the same damage increase.
Not to mention having armor can save your **obscenity** when your clip runs out and you have to switch to the pistol. The extra shots make all the difference in the world.
yes yes in theroy armor is better but most time in real fights i nomally able to fire all my rounds for lmg and pistol before i have to reload and that's when alien comes in for the kill (nearly never died before fire all my 50 lmg rounds unless ambshed) and i suspect that's what happen in most cases to most people so it doesn't really matter you takes 1 or 2 more hits since you can't hurt them in that time
one more thing when i play alien i notice lvl 0 turret just stings you but lvl 2 or 3 bullet upgraded turrets hurts like hell
so u c why i will choose lvl 3 weapon (yes lvl 2 each is much better but that's not the question asks)
Weapons...many times in the games ive comm'ed, my marines die while firing upon the skulks. I have yet to come across a marine that was simply so clueless that he had no idea there was an alien attacking him. I just figure if they have that extra punch, the skulks go down hard. This is not to mention that carapace is extremely easy to get versus marine upgrades, so if you have upgraded weapons, then it helps to even out with carapace enough that the two are back to the same original terms. Once the alien is close enough to bite, there is a good chance it is over anyway, so why prolong it for nothing? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
1. Level 1 armor - Gives marines 3 bites before death, infinitly handy, especally if there are marines with welders around to repair them.
2. Level 1 Weapons - Much quicker and cheaper then level 2 armor, in addition for being needed for number 3.
3. Level 2 Weapons - gives my marines a chance aginst fades on the offense, no amout of armor is going to help if they can't really injure the fades in the first place.
4. Level 2 Armor - To compliment the weapons.
5. Level 3 Armor - To make them even harder for fades to kill - level 3 armor is very handy if you don't have the RP for lots of Heavy armor - 1 installment of 60 RP will make your whole team that much harder to knock off.
6. Level 3 Weapons - Possibly bugged at the moment, which is why it is last.
Level 3 armor is not as usful without upgraded weapons (unless you have HMGs) because your marines won't be doing enough damage for the extra plating to matter.
level 3 weapons are even less so - your marines will still die in 2 bites or 3-4 ARs, no matter how much damage they do. Even heavy marines suffer from the lack of armor upgrades, to a certain degree.
The final verdict? There are upgrades on both sides that will help you overcome a lack of upgrades, heavy armor or HMGs. So really, upgrades are still what they were intended to be, small, but ultimatly vital bonuses to the effectiveness of the current equipment.
Research lvl 1 Armor, Research lvl 1 Weapons, Research lvl 2 Weapons, Research lvl 2 Armor, Research lvl 3 Weapons, Research lvl 3 Armor.
That is the way I go and I rarely stray form it. I get the armor ASAP so that my trusty marines can survive 3 skulks bites instead of 2. I get 2 weapons upgrades to negate that annoying carapace. I get another armor upgrade ot further raise my marines survivability, and fianlly get lvl 3 wepaons and armor as resources allow.
I do not see the point in maxing out weapons or armor upgrades before getting at least lvl 1 of both.
<!--QuoteBegin--KaMiKaZe!!!+Jan 4 2003, 07:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (KaMiKaZe!!! @ Jan 4 2003, 07:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Research lvl 1 Armor, Research lvl 1 Weapons, Research lvl 2 Weapons, Research lvl 2 Armor, Research lvl 3 Weapons, Research lvl 3 Armor.
That is the way I go and I rarely stray form it. I get the armor ASAP so that my trusty marines can survive 3 skulks bites instead of 2. I get 2 weapons upgrades to negate that annoying carapace. I get another armor upgrade ot further raise my marines survivability, and fianlly get lvl 3 wepaons and armor as resources allow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Agre whole heartedly. Going from a 2 chomp meal to a 3 chomp mean means the world. But since weapons upgrade affects ALL weapons - also mines, turrets, welders, knives, nades, I'd not skip those. So for me it's Armor, Weapon, Weapon, Armor, Armor, Weapon.
Hmm... let us consider we have lvl3 Weapons. By then, the ALiens will surely have lvl3 carapace. Lvl3 Weapons give 30% more damage. Lvl3 Carapace give 60% armor absorbsion So if you fire a bullet with LMG you do 10+3 Damage and the Alien looses 13x40%=5.2 HP until its armor is depleated.Without upgrade it would be 10x40%=4 HP wow! a great difference. I always upgrade to carapace, upgraded weapons I dont fear as an Alien, I fear HA&HW! And if a Skulk bites 75HP off a Marine, Armor lvl3 would leave him: 1 Bite HP:70 AR: 65 2 Bite HP:40 AR: 20 3 Bite HP:-15AR: 0 *DEAD*
IS this correct? If so, I would prefer HA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Armor first to let them survive that second bite.
Two weapons because the first one has no effect on LMG damage vs. uncarapaced aliens.
Two armor to let them survive the third bite, and the second Onos hit. (The second armor boost is nearly worthless on its own, so push to the third ASAP.)
Finish off the weapons, just because. No huge benefit to the third weapon boost, but if the points are there, may as well do it.
Of the two, I value armor more. The increase in total survivability is tremendous for light marines, and it's free. Upgrading weapons, on the other hand, doesn't promote as marked a benefit.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>The calculations for all of this are here.</a>
Motion tracking helps get around the problem of ambushed troops dying, but even with that, I've often been in situations where I've been fighting more than one thing at a time, and take a bite here and there. Fully upgraded light armor lets you take twice as much damage before dropping, at least from the high-damage attacks, and living marines are worth much more than dead ones.
Not that I'm putting weapons upgrades down, I prefer passive upgrades to being handed a HMG and knowing that I'll drop in no time to Mister Fade outside and watch those resources fly out the window. Passive upgrades rule, and I see a losing game on the horizon whenever I'm playing with a commander who doesn't research. However, humans are fragile and tasty, and you have to armor them up so they can survive long enough to dish out the damage, just like you should only give the nice guns to someone in heavy armor or a jetpack unless the situation is dire.
When I know I have good marines always a weapon upgrade or 2 first... They know how to shoot, and stay away from skulks, also if they do get fades, the lmgs will take em down.
I like the armor upgrades for more of the HPBs out there and folks with no awareness or aim. If you get early motion tracking is another reason to upgrade weapons first... 1 or 2 armor upgrades first would be good if you already are facing fades, with a weak gunned and under resourced team..
just my ideas on that...
what's more important to you: having a marine survive a few swipes/acid rockets longer, or killing a fade and stealing those 44 resources from the aliens? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah but consider the same scenario with upgraded weapons instead-
You and another marine spot a fade and you have weapon upgrades but no armor upgrades. He kills both of you using splash damage well before his energy bar runs out- and he didn't even have to leave the corner he was peeking around. Because of dying so fast, you didn't even get to shoot half of your clip. While you were certainly doing +3 damage a shot, you did less damage overall.
If you had had more armor you might have lasted until you retreated, or until his energy ran out, at which point you could counter attack with more chance of success.
Armor
Weapon
Armor
Armor
Weapon
Weapon
Armor is just way too necessary
what's more important to you: having a marine survive a few swipes/acid rockets longer, or killing a fade and stealing those 44 resources from the aliens? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah but consider the same scenario with upgraded weapons instead-
You and another marine spot a fade and you have weapon upgrades but no armor upgrades. He kills both of you using splash damage well before his energy bar runs out- and he didn't even have to leave the corner he was peeking around. Because of dying so fast, you didn't even get to shoot half of your clip. While you were certainly doing +3 damage a shot, you did less damage overall.
If you had had more armor you might have lasted until you retreated, or until his energy ran out, at which point you could counter attack with more chance of success.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true, but again with just armor upgrades, what chance do you have of killing the fade anyway? even if you do survive the 5-8 acid rockets fired at you, your gun is too puny to take the fade down. the fade will just turn and run before you can even put up chase (that is, if they're smart). therefore, you're left with 2 marines who are either both dead or both hurt. either way, this gives the aliens a huge tactical advantage over you (they lose nothing).
marines retreating? i hate raining medpacks on marines. 2 resources is a lot when it all comes down to it. again, aliens lose nothing (free healing), you lose resources fixing up marines. aliens win. kill them fast, or you won't kill them at all.
"the fade will just turn and run before you can even put up chase (that is, if they're smart)."
sure, you'll get a couple of shots at the fade. it doesn't mean you'll hit all of them, nor does it mean you'll be able to fire all your rounds at it anyway. smart fade players will run before their health reaches 50. doing otherwise is stupid, and a waste of resources--that is, unless they die trying to take down a siege/other highly important area.
you have a far better chance of taking a fade down with weapon upgrades, not by absorbing 4-5 extra acid rockets.
And jet packers are nothing without upgraded armor. Jet packers with fully upgraded armor and HMG can easily win the game.
Playing as a marine I want: Weapons, weapons, armor, armor, armor, weapons.
Playing as a commander I do: Armor, armor, weapons weapons, armor weapons.
Also mainly getting weapons upgrade first is to combat the alien carapace upgrade.
I also agree with whoever said that getting upgrades is more important then trying to get HA/HMG too early.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the weapon upgrades only bump the damage per bullet by one. Fire ten shots, you'd being doing ten more damage than normal (with a level one upgrade.) But, if the armor upgrade allows you to fire just one more shot with the LMG that does 11 damage per bullet (is this right?), then you've just upgraded your damage by 11 (by just getting off one more shot.)
Usually, the extra armor gives you the chance to fire off several bullets, ten, fifteen, fifty (if you survive two bites, and dance around the skulk that surprised you... and can't hit worth anything...)
So let's say you fire off a clip of lmg ammo with a level one weapons upgrade. That's 50 points of extra damage, an appreciable amount of damage for sure. However, if the armor allows you to survive a little longer, you'd only need to fire 5 extra shots to get the same damage increase.
Not to mention having armor can save your **obscenity** when your clip runs out and you have to switch to the pistol. The extra shots make all the difference in the world.
one more thing when i play alien i notice lvl 0 turret just stings you but lvl 2 or 3 bullet upgraded turrets hurts like hell
so u c why i will choose lvl 3 weapon (yes lvl 2 each is much better but that's not the question asks)
ps: soz about my spelling i know they are hell
1. Level 1 armor - Gives marines 3 bites before death, infinitly handy, especally if there are marines with welders around to repair them.
2. Level 1 Weapons - Much quicker and cheaper then level 2 armor, in addition for being needed for number 3.
3. Level 2 Weapons - gives my marines a chance aginst fades on the offense, no amout of armor is going to help if they can't really injure the fades in the first place.
4. Level 2 Armor - To compliment the weapons.
5. Level 3 Armor - To make them even harder for fades to kill - level 3 armor is very handy if you don't have the RP for lots of Heavy armor - 1 installment of 60 RP will make your whole team that much harder to knock off.
6. Level 3 Weapons - Possibly bugged at the moment, which is why it is last.
Level 3 armor is not as usful without upgraded weapons (unless you have HMGs) because your marines won't be doing enough damage for the extra plating to matter.
level 3 weapons are even less so - your marines will still die in 2 bites or 3-4 ARs, no matter how much damage they do. Even heavy marines suffer from the lack of armor upgrades, to a certain degree.
The final verdict? There are upgrades on both sides that will help you overcome a lack of upgrades, heavy armor or HMGs. So really, upgrades are still what they were intended to be, small, but ultimatly vital bonuses to the effectiveness of the current equipment.
That is the way I go and I rarely stray form it. I get the armor ASAP so that my trusty marines can survive 3 skulks bites instead of 2. I get 2 weapons upgrades to negate that annoying carapace. I get another armor upgrade ot further raise my marines survivability, and fianlly get lvl 3 wepaons and armor as resources allow.
I do not see the point in maxing out weapons or armor upgrades before getting at least lvl 1 of both.
That is the way I go and I rarely stray form it. I get the armor ASAP so that my trusty marines can survive 3 skulks bites instead of 2. I get 2 weapons upgrades to negate that annoying carapace. I get another armor upgrade ot further raise my marines survivability, and fianlly get lvl 3 wepaons and armor as resources allow.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agre whole heartedly. Going from a 2 chomp meal to a 3 chomp mean means the world. But since weapons upgrade affects ALL weapons - also mines, turrets, welders, knives, nades, I'd not skip those. So for me it's Armor, Weapon, Weapon, Armor, Armor, Weapon.
Lvl3 Weapons give 30% more damage.
Lvl3 Carapace give 60% armor absorbsion
So if you fire a bullet with LMG you do 10+3 Damage and the Alien looses 13x40%=5.2 HP until its armor is depleated.Without upgrade it would be 10x40%=4 HP wow! a great difference.
I always upgrade to carapace, upgraded weapons I dont fear as an Alien, I fear HA&HW!
And if a Skulk bites 75HP off a Marine, Armor lvl3 would leave him:
1 Bite HP:70 AR: 65
2 Bite HP:40 AR: 20
3 Bite HP:-15AR: 0 *DEAD*
IS this correct? If so, I would prefer HA <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
That extra bite or so is struck when the marine is either: reloading or taking out his pistol.