What bothers me more than the plot changes is the sloppy and inconsistent way musical themes are used. For example, I was sure the main theme (the one from the opening credits) would be the Ring theme, used whenever the Ring influences the mind of the people around him. And then they waste this chance by playing the theme with full orchestra when the Argonath, the Pillars of Kings, are shown.
<!--QuoteBegin--Bicycle Repair Man+Dec 24 2002, 03:26 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bicycle Repair Man @ Dec 24 2002, 03:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sauron is after the ring, this is the first time for a while thats hes heard of the hobbits location. Pippin looking in the Palatir was a distraction from closer to home(So was many other things happening in that area) but now before he knows of some hobbits that are at Isengard he hears of some near Osgiliath(Did the Ringwraith see the ring? I'll have to watch it again) that may have the ring. Pippin will no longer be a distraction, Sauron will be concentrating on looking around Osgiliath.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Palantir scene did <i>not</i> take place in Isengard. I'm not going to go into details here because some people not familiar with the books might read this, but Pippin looked into it on the way to Minas Tirith, on Gondors territory. So, to Sauron, the ring first appears in Osgiliath in the hands of a hobbit, can't be taken, and then, a while later, a hobbit is spotted in another part of Gondor. Does this serve as a distraction or not?
You people analyze to much <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> in my oppinion the movie was great, and way better than the first. I havn't read the TTT book, but i have read the first one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> so can't really say anything about the changes. Sure the romance between Aragan and Arwen sucks... but what do you expect.. it's still a hollywood production (!). I don't think it mathers, it aint that long and it doesn't affect the story. I agree that Gimli was to much of a joke, sure... some jokes can be funny, but come on... (can't stand the whole aduience laughing to a non-comedy! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Well.. the visuals was great, and i thought golem looked really realistic, and I just can't see him as a puppet or actor... puppets doesn't look as good, and good luck finding a actor that is 90% bones. The rebirth of gandalf was confusing... I just don't get it? why did he respawn(omg!) as Gandalf the white? is that a side-effect of death? do magicians get more powerfull after they die? the same thing happened to saruman? .. it's wierd. maybe i ought to read the book, but thats going to happen-- *not* Well that's all... time to wrap up presents and eat meatballs, christmas ham, ribs.... omg <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Merry Christmas to you all! enjoy!
PS. (Sry about the text mess... hope reading it isn't that bad <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> D.S
<!--QuoteBegin--StalKalle+Dec 24 2002, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (StalKalle @ Dec 24 2002, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The rebirth of gandalf was confusing... I just don't get it? why did he respawn(omg!) as Gandalf the white? is that a side-effect of death? do magicians get more powerfull after they die? the same thing happened to saruman? .. it's wierd.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You have to know a lot more of the backstory that's not in the book to really understand this. Gandalf is not human. None of the wizards are.
The best analogy is that Gandalf and Saruman are "angels" (aka Istari) working directly for "God". Saruman is the White, and Gandalf is the Gray.
(Aside - there's also a guy named Radagast the Brown, and two Blue Wizards)
When Saruman falls from grace (ie., cast out of heaven) because he turns evil, he loses the right to his status as the head angel, "the White".
Thus, when Gandalf "dies" (he can't really die, much like the elves can't die), he is reincarnated by "God" as "Gandalf the White", with more magical power equivalent to that which Saruman had in the first part.
This is why Saruman kicks Gandalf's butt in Fellowship, but Gandalf is more powerful in Towers - Gandalf has now taken over as head Wizard, basically.
Thank you. That part was confusing me too. I've not read any of the books. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
People, people, I implore you. Don't look at this as a perfect copy of the book, it's much more of an adaption of the book to the big screen... <b>adaption</b>.
I can see through your arguments that some was not needed, but I think some was, such as the elves at the big battle scene. The believeability of holding off 10,000 men without a fleet of elves is lacking, and the movie was going for an immersive feeling, and it pulled it off well.
If you want an extact copy, read the books. Just sit back and take it for what's it's worth... enjoy the movie and don't nit pick at it. I liked both parts so far, equally well i'd say, and i'll be there the first saturday of the opening of the 3rd part.
<!--QuoteBegin--404NotFound+Dec 24 2002, 09:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (404NotFound @ Dec 24 2002, 09:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The believeability of holding off 10,000 men without a fleet of elves is lacking, and the movie was going for an immersive feeling, and it pulled it off well.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I didn't have a problem with the guys at Helm's Deep getting assistance from outside forces. My problem was that it was elves. The elves are portrayed consistently as being no longer concerned with the affairs of men, and heading off to the West. And now suddenly an entire army of elves shows up.
And what was with the elven "general". We were supposed to care about this guy we'd never met before? What was his relationship with Aragorn?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Palantir scene did not take place in Isengard. I'm not going to go into details here because some people not familiar with the books might read this, but Pippin looked into it on the way to Minas Tirith, on Gondors territory. So, to Sauron, the ring first appears in Osgiliath in the hands of a hobbit, can't be taken, and then, a while later, a hobbit is spotted in another part of Gondor. Does this serve as a distraction or not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Palantir scene took place a day away from Isengard. He may be confused about the 2 locations of the hobbits, but now instead of concentrating away from his front door he is now going to be looking at both locations, this COULD end the secrecy of Frodo and Sam's journey. BUT, will the Palantir scene be in the ROTK film?
Ah, time to post after a long while. I just saw the movie today, 24th of December, as it is a ritual for a friend and me to watch LOTR every Christmas Eve. Some people go to church, I go to watch LOTR, it is sort of a religion anyway.... for some people that is.
I have read the books and I must say, that while the story truly is one of the greatest fantasy stories ever I found the books to be written rather ... uh, how should I phrase it... not really boring, but too long in uninteresting parts, yeah that's it.
Now, on to the movie, which in my opinion was truly great. The visuals were stunning, though in quite a few places I'd have imagines things even bigger. Take for example the city Theoden resides in until they flee to Helm's Klam or the hall he waited in. For my liking it just didn't feel big enough to fit a king of his majesty (not taking into acount there wasn't much left of it, before Gandalf arrived). And one thing that just shot through my mind was, why did they build all the houses of wood, when there were no trees whatsoever close by and rock would have been a much more natural choice... anyway...
I really liked the acting, even Gollum, although I was thinking what a great computer animation most of the time. I especially liked how they worked with Legolas and Gimli and I must say that I can never get enough short people jokes, espacially about dwarfs, but then again I'm looking at these characters more from an RPG perspective than a close resemblance to the books. For me Gimli truely is THE dwarf as I always imagines them to be.
The things they changed in the movie I found disturbing at times, but it didn't bother me as much since I was mostly thinking about how it would have been possible to show more impressive views of different scenes. For example when Gimli and Aragorn cleared the bridge and held of the orcs, I would have loved to have the camera travel under the bridge, coming up at the other side... but then again, I'm into extremely over dramatised heroism scenes... which leads me to the next point: The whole battlescene at Helm's Klam was just plain awesome (except maybe the cheesy riding out of the hall), from the part where the not-really-ment-to-be-there elves walked in, to the arrival of Gandalf and Eomer I had tears in my eyes. The only thing I found disturbing was that they always switched to the other characters.
All in all the movie was great, I don't really care that much, that they didn't stay true to book 100 percent, though I would have loved to see all the people that didn't read the books go "No, it can't end like this!" if they had kept the ending of the second book.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Palantir scene took place a day away from Isengard. He may be confused about the 2 locations of the hobbits, but now instead of concentrating away from his front door he is now going to be looking at both locations, this COULD end the secrecy of Frodo and Sam's journey. BUT, will the Palantir scene be in the ROTK film?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm pretty sure it'll be in - it is after all the reason for Pippin and Gandalf to hurry to Minas Tirith, thus creating the necessary circumstances for Pippins further development. One day away from Isengard <i>is</i> well inside Gondor. I agree that all this could end the secrecy around Frodo and Sam, but hell, they're moving straight into the enemies territory. It's not as if their secret was ever safe.
For all the non-huns out there - that's the name of Helms Deep in the German version <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Now please excuse me if I am repeating someone, I might have missed a few replies....
First of all, it isn't "Gondor" that they took Frodo to in the movie (although he certainly went there in both movie and book.) Gondor is a country, and Frodo and Sam have to travel through Gondor to get to Shelob's Lair. (And into Mordor.) What you were referring to was actually Osgiliath, a city just east of Minis Tirith. Why they put it in? Who knows... I trust Peter Jackson (I imagine he is attempting to play up the corruptability of men [Boromir's kin in particular], and that Boromir's kin will have a difficult part to play [in repsects to the ex-fellowship.])
Much of the stuff that happens regarding Aragorn and Arwen is in the books. You just have to be patient enough to read appendices. I was a little unsure about a lot of it myself, but I went back and looked some of it up.
The elves at helms deep was a little strange.... The elven general was someone we had met before. His name is Haldir, and was briefly in the first movie. (More so in the extended edition.) Haldir plays some interesting roles through out the books. (Like most elves, he is quite old, so don't limit your search for him to the LOTR.)
The two other wizards are Pallando and Adrazar (and of course Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast.) Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought they were Maiar, not Istari.
About the musical themes, I disagree. Watch some of the extra features and realize how carefully they payed attention to the ties. There is an obvious theme for evil/sauron/ring (BAH bah BAAH bum bum bum), as well as a theme for the Shire, Rohan, and each of the Elven nations. There used to be a fellowship theme that built from a few instruments, to a grand orchestrated piece as the fellowship was formed. As the fellowship broke up, the theme lost it's strength and instrumentation and was heard for the last time near the end of FotR.
All in all, the movie was unbelievable, and very true to the vision. Movies like this restore my faith in the quality of cinema. Man, I can not sing enough praise for them. I am just a little ticked that I have to wait an entire year before seeing the next one. (Although there are both Matrix movies, the next Xmen movie, and lord knows how many crappy action movies, to see before then.)
Comments
The Palantir scene did <i>not</i> take place in Isengard. I'm not going to go into details here because some people not familiar with the books might read this, but Pippin looked into it on the way to Minas Tirith, on Gondors territory.
So, to Sauron, the ring first appears in Osgiliath in the hands of a hobbit, can't be taken, and then, a while later, a hobbit is spotted in another part of Gondor. Does this serve as a distraction or not?
in my oppinion the movie was great, and way better than the first. I havn't read the TTT book, but i have read the first one <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> so can't really say anything about the changes. Sure the romance between Aragan and Arwen sucks... but what do you expect.. it's still a hollywood production (!). I don't think it mathers, it aint that long and it doesn't affect the story. I agree that Gimli was to much of a joke, sure... some jokes can be funny, but come on... (can't stand the whole aduience laughing to a non-comedy! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> ) Well.. the visuals was great, and i thought golem looked really realistic, and I just can't see him as a puppet or actor... puppets doesn't look as good, and good luck finding a actor that is 90% bones. The rebirth of gandalf was confusing... I just don't get it? why did he respawn(omg!) as Gandalf the white? is that a side-effect of death? do magicians get more powerfull after they die? the same thing happened to saruman? .. it's wierd. maybe i ought to read the book, but thats going to happen-- *not*
Well that's all... time to wrap up presents and eat meatballs, christmas ham, ribs.... omg <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> Merry Christmas to you all! enjoy!
PS. (Sry about the text mess... hope reading it isn't that bad <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> D.S
You have to know a lot more of the backstory that's not in the book to really understand this. Gandalf is not human. None of the wizards are.
The best analogy is that Gandalf and Saruman are "angels" (aka Istari) working directly for "God". Saruman is the White, and Gandalf is the Gray.
(Aside - there's also a guy named Radagast the Brown, and two Blue Wizards)
When Saruman falls from grace (ie., cast out of heaven) because he turns evil, he loses the right to his status as the head angel, "the White".
Thus, when Gandalf "dies" (he can't really die, much like the elves can't die), he is reincarnated by "God" as "Gandalf the White", with more magical power equivalent to that which Saruman had in the first part.
This is why Saruman kicks Gandalf's butt in Fellowship, but Gandalf is more powerful in Towers - Gandalf has now taken over as head Wizard, basically.
I can see through your arguments that some was not needed, but I think some was, such as the elves at the big battle scene. The believeability of holding off 10,000 men without a fleet of elves is lacking, and the movie was going for an immersive feeling, and it pulled it off well.
If you want an extact copy, read the books. Just sit back and take it for what's it's worth... enjoy the movie and don't nit pick at it. I liked both parts so far, equally well i'd say, and i'll be there the first saturday of the opening of the 3rd part.
I didn't have a problem with the guys at Helm's Deep getting assistance from outside forces. My problem was that it was elves. The elves are portrayed consistently as being no longer concerned with the affairs of men, and heading off to the West. And now suddenly an entire army of elves shows up.
And what was with the elven "general". We were supposed to care about this guy we'd never met before? What was his relationship with Aragorn?
So, to Sauron, the ring first appears in Osgiliath in the hands of a hobbit, can't be taken, and then, a while later, a hobbit is spotted in another part of Gondor. Does this serve as a distraction or not? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Palantir scene took place a day away from Isengard. He may be confused about the 2 locations of the hobbits, but now instead of concentrating away from his front door he is now going to be looking at both locations, this COULD end the secrecy of Frodo and Sam's journey. BUT, will the Palantir scene be in the ROTK film?
I have read the books and I must say, that while the story truly is one of the greatest fantasy stories ever I found the books to be written rather ... uh, how should I phrase it... not really boring, but too long in uninteresting parts, yeah that's it.
Now, on to the movie, which in my opinion was truly great. The visuals were stunning, though in quite a few places I'd have imagines things even bigger. Take for example the city Theoden resides in until they flee to Helm's Klam or the hall he waited in. For my liking it just didn't feel big enough to fit a king of his majesty (not taking into acount there wasn't much left of it, before Gandalf arrived). And one thing that just shot through my mind was, why did they build all the houses of wood, when there were no trees whatsoever close by and rock would have been a much more natural choice... anyway...
I really liked the acting, even Gollum, although I was thinking what a great computer animation most of the time. I especially liked how they worked with Legolas and Gimli and I must say that I can never get enough short people jokes, espacially about dwarfs, but then again I'm looking at these characters more from an RPG perspective than a close resemblance to the books. For me Gimli truely is THE dwarf as I always imagines them to be.
The things they changed in the movie I found disturbing at times, but it didn't bother me as much since I was mostly thinking about how it would have been possible to show more impressive views of different scenes. For example when Gimli and Aragorn cleared the bridge and held of the orcs, I would have loved to have the camera travel under the bridge, coming up at the other side... but then again, I'm into extremely over dramatised heroism scenes... which leads me to the next point:
The whole battlescene at Helm's Klam was just plain awesome (except maybe the cheesy riding out of the hall), from the part where the not-really-ment-to-be-there elves walked in, to the arrival of Gandalf and Eomer I had tears in my eyes. The only thing I found disturbing was that they always switched to the other characters.
All in all the movie was great, I don't really care that much, that they didn't stay true to book 100 percent, though I would have loved to see all the people that didn't read the books go "No, it can't end like this!" if they had kept the ending of the second book.
I'm pretty sure it'll be in - it is after all the reason for Pippin and Gandalf to hurry to Minas Tirith, thus creating the necessary circumstances for Pippins further development.
One day away from Isengard <i>is</i> well inside Gondor. I agree that all this could end the secrecy around Frodo and Sam, but hell, they're moving straight into the enemies territory. It's not as if their secret was ever safe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Helms Klam<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
For all the non-huns out there - that's the name of Helms Deep in the German version <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
First of all, it isn't "Gondor" that they took Frodo to in the movie (although he certainly went there in both movie and book.) Gondor is a country, and Frodo and Sam have to travel through Gondor to get to Shelob's Lair. (And into Mordor.) What you were referring to was actually Osgiliath, a city just east of Minis Tirith. Why they put it in? Who knows... I trust Peter Jackson (I imagine he is attempting to play up the corruptability of men [Boromir's kin in particular], and that Boromir's kin will have a difficult part to play [in repsects to the ex-fellowship.])
Much of the stuff that happens regarding Aragorn and Arwen is in the books. You just have to be patient enough to read appendices. I was a little unsure about a lot of it myself, but I went back and looked some of it up.
The elves at helms deep was a little strange.... The elven general was someone we had met before. His name is Haldir, and was briefly in the first movie. (More so in the extended edition.) Haldir plays some interesting roles through out the books. (Like most elves, he is quite old, so don't limit your search for him to the LOTR.)
The two other wizards are Pallando and Adrazar (and of course Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast.) Perhaps I am wrong, but I thought they were Maiar, not Istari.
About the musical themes, I disagree. Watch some of the extra features and realize how carefully they payed attention to the ties. There is an obvious theme for evil/sauron/ring (BAH bah BAAH bum bum bum), as well as a theme for the Shire, Rohan, and each of the Elven nations. There used to be a fellowship theme that built from a few instruments, to a grand orchestrated piece as the fellowship was formed. As the fellowship broke up, the theme lost it's strength and instrumentation and was heard for the last time near the end of FotR.
All in all, the movie was unbelievable, and very true to the vision. Movies like this restore my faith in the quality of cinema. Man, I can not sing enough praise for them. I am just a little ticked that I have to wait an entire year before seeing the next one. (Although there are both Matrix movies, the next Xmen movie, and lord knows how many crappy action movies, to see before then.)
By the way, go read the book, the answer is in there.
<span style='color:red'>***Locked.*** </span>