I'm Giving Up On Marines In 1.03
geldonyetich
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
<div class="IPBDescription">I guess I'll stick to aliens.</div> I like to think I'm a pretty good player, but I have noticed in the dozens of games of NS 1.03 I've played that marines will only have a chance at winning if one of the following conditions are met:
A. If the Marines use a cheap tactic. (For example, siege cannon through unlikely walls to pin down two hives.)
B. If the marines have a heavy numerical advantage. (Possibly because of the way the economy works, but possibly also because the commander takes up one spot on the team leaving them down one man on the field at all times.)
C. If the Marines have a heavy skill advantage. Look at any marine match that was won in which A or B didn't come into effect, and you will see factor I'm not just talking a minor skill advantage, either, I'm talking the aliens would have to be in complete dissarray versus the marines being unnaturally well organized.
Usually a combination of the above.
Given level conditions in which the marines don't use cheap tactics, don't have a numerical advantage, or don't have a heavy skill advantage they're pretty much toast. Granted, I generally play on 16 player servers, and the way the economy works and better saturation of marines often cause things go a little better on 24/32 player servers.
As someone who commanded a few games and can observe how the battle unfolds from that perspective I've made a few observations. I challenge anyone who disagrees with my assessment to try their hand at commanding themselves and see if I'm wrong here.
My observations:
1. Marines cannot effectively hold any ground without constant patrols. This is a real problem because marines are generally quite slow and completely reliant on the commander to tell them where to go. By the time they get to a resource base, it's too late. Phase pads are the best solution I've found to getting marines to the places that need defending, but often the marines are too tied down elsewhere.
Most of the time, your marines are busy, so the job of holding down resources falls entirely to your turrets. Against a single hive turrets can be effective because a skulk and gorge cannot survive under fire of a turret... but only if you have built your turrets "just right" and a single skulk doesn't find an uncovered angle to remove your entire turret farm while your marine's attentions are elsewhere. Against two hives, a single lerk or fade can eliminate entire turret farms, pausing only for their regeneration to heal any damage they may have taken between volleys. Teams of aliens take out turrets farms much faster. Against three hives, turrets are mere annoyances: game over.
End result: Since turrets can only be effective at the start, the Marine's abilities to hold down resources without constant marine patrols is nill. I am now under the belief that making the turrets' operation rely on the existance of a nearby turret factory was a mistake.
2. Even with full Weapon Labs upgrades, a skilled marine with a LMG is generally no match for an equally skilled fade due to the fade's higher speed, durability, acid rocket splash damage, and special abilities (regeneration, blink, cloak, ect). Outfit the marines with better weapons, you say? I might be able to drop a few guns, but I can't afford anything else. If your wondering why, read reason #1 above again. In order to make the middle playing field even, I think a fully upgraded LMG using marine should be able to have a fair shot at taking down a careless fade.
3. The Alien's weapons have far more utility to them. Lvl 3 alien weapons are nasty, but their lvl 2 weapons alone have a ton of strategic effectiveness that you can't get out of the marine's mere direct fire weaponry. Acid rockets, umbra clouds and webbing come to mind. The only marine weapon that even comes close is the grenade launcher, and it costs a heap. Again, thanks to #1 above the marines won't get many grenade launchers at all. On top of that, carrying a grenade launcher cripples you at close range and you run the risk of blowing yourself up with it.
Ultimately, the main problem is that the Marines lack flexibility. If there were a few more tools at the Marine's disposal that allowed them to compete - say perhaps spawning with a hand grenade they can lob in an alien occupied vent - they'd be that much more viable.
If you're able to win consistantly as part of a Marine team in 1.03 you have my respect. For me, 1.03 looks like it's a dark day for humanity in the Natural Selection universe.
A. If the Marines use a cheap tactic. (For example, siege cannon through unlikely walls to pin down two hives.)
B. If the marines have a heavy numerical advantage. (Possibly because of the way the economy works, but possibly also because the commander takes up one spot on the team leaving them down one man on the field at all times.)
C. If the Marines have a heavy skill advantage. Look at any marine match that was won in which A or B didn't come into effect, and you will see factor I'm not just talking a minor skill advantage, either, I'm talking the aliens would have to be in complete dissarray versus the marines being unnaturally well organized.
Usually a combination of the above.
Given level conditions in which the marines don't use cheap tactics, don't have a numerical advantage, or don't have a heavy skill advantage they're pretty much toast. Granted, I generally play on 16 player servers, and the way the economy works and better saturation of marines often cause things go a little better on 24/32 player servers.
As someone who commanded a few games and can observe how the battle unfolds from that perspective I've made a few observations. I challenge anyone who disagrees with my assessment to try their hand at commanding themselves and see if I'm wrong here.
My observations:
1. Marines cannot effectively hold any ground without constant patrols. This is a real problem because marines are generally quite slow and completely reliant on the commander to tell them where to go. By the time they get to a resource base, it's too late. Phase pads are the best solution I've found to getting marines to the places that need defending, but often the marines are too tied down elsewhere.
Most of the time, your marines are busy, so the job of holding down resources falls entirely to your turrets. Against a single hive turrets can be effective because a skulk and gorge cannot survive under fire of a turret... but only if you have built your turrets "just right" and a single skulk doesn't find an uncovered angle to remove your entire turret farm while your marine's attentions are elsewhere. Against two hives, a single lerk or fade can eliminate entire turret farms, pausing only for their regeneration to heal any damage they may have taken between volleys. Teams of aliens take out turrets farms much faster. Against three hives, turrets are mere annoyances: game over.
End result: Since turrets can only be effective at the start, the Marine's abilities to hold down resources without constant marine patrols is nill. I am now under the belief that making the turrets' operation rely on the existance of a nearby turret factory was a mistake.
2. Even with full Weapon Labs upgrades, a skilled marine with a LMG is generally no match for an equally skilled fade due to the fade's higher speed, durability, acid rocket splash damage, and special abilities (regeneration, blink, cloak, ect). Outfit the marines with better weapons, you say? I might be able to drop a few guns, but I can't afford anything else. If your wondering why, read reason #1 above again. In order to make the middle playing field even, I think a fully upgraded LMG using marine should be able to have a fair shot at taking down a careless fade.
3. The Alien's weapons have far more utility to them. Lvl 3 alien weapons are nasty, but their lvl 2 weapons alone have a ton of strategic effectiveness that you can't get out of the marine's mere direct fire weaponry. Acid rockets, umbra clouds and webbing come to mind. The only marine weapon that even comes close is the grenade launcher, and it costs a heap. Again, thanks to #1 above the marines won't get many grenade launchers at all. On top of that, carrying a grenade launcher cripples you at close range and you run the risk of blowing yourself up with it.
Ultimately, the main problem is that the Marines lack flexibility. If there were a few more tools at the Marine's disposal that allowed them to compete - say perhaps spawning with a hand grenade they can lob in an alien occupied vent - they'd be that much more viable.
If you're able to win consistantly as part of a Marine team in 1.03 you have my respect. For me, 1.03 looks like it's a dark day for humanity in the Natural Selection universe.
Comments
So I guess I am entitled to be the one that issues the "STFU" then.
My challenge stands:
" I challenge anyone who disagrees with my assessment to try their hand at commanding themselves and see if I'm wrong here."
But because you guys are better at shooting down ideas than supporting them, I don't think you'd be interested, so nevermind.
We both know that Khaara are getting the nerf stick in 1.04 one way or the other, I'm just trying to point out where they should be looking. Think I'm wrong? Telling me you wear a bigger size of boxer short isn't going to prove it.
Add the fact that a simple Alien "minibase" (3xOC, 3xDC) requires either an EXTENSIVE amount of time or a Grenade Launcher to remove, whereas a Marine base equipped similarly (guy with Welder, TF, 3x Turret) can be taken out easily by a solo Fade who can kill the Marine with Rockets and then chop the TF to bits.
Basically...it takes Marines a lot more manpower, resources, and time to do something a single Alien can generally do alone once the Aliens hit 2 Hives.
Or to put it better...you know how 2 Hives is supposed to be the "midgame" with Fades against HA/HMG Marines? Well, 9 times out of 10, the Aliens hit that "midgame" long, LONG before the Marines do. The Marines generally have to force the Aliens to NEVER make the "midgame" (...such a wrong term...) by locking them down from the start, or lose.
I've commandered a lot of games. More than a couple of these games have been with no more than mere flunkies who know the game basics. But we were still able to pull off a win. How? you ask?
I know that marines are terrible at holding locations. I know that an unguarded refinery will last a few minutes from a prowling alien. I know that you need to place turrets (and a couple of em) in the right spots to avoid a hole to take down the tf.
I seriously believe it to be an important tenent of the marines to hold onto the ideas of flexibility and resourcefulness. Sure, 1 alien can take down 1 node, but can he constantly take down all of your nodes when your marines constantly rebuild them? It takes (with a decent-sized marine team) around a minute or two to pay itself off. If an alien chews on it, and you can't get reinforcements there fast enough, sell it. The point is not to have any single node that you can rely on (other than the main base node), but to be flexible in your taking of nodes and to know what nodes are serious enough to guard (i.e. hive nodes, double nodes, strategically important locations, etc). Anything else that gets set down usually earns you can relatively quickly. Marine's strength lies in how fast they can earn cash. The faster they earn this cash (in conjunction with some other hive-attrition strategies), the faster they can lock down the aliens and keep em shut out.
Again: Do NOT rely on marine inabilities. Work your strategies around them. Marines are far better at clearing out aliens than waiting for the aliens to attack, so keep them on the move! If you have to defend a place, DEFEND it well! Go overboard if you feel it will help you win (*note: not a guarentee!).
Your #1 observation is totally correct. However, your other THREE reasons all assume that the marines must play a "hold and defend" strategy for each node location they possess. They don't need to. You can base your strategy around different offensive pushes that compensates for the incredible drain of defending each and every node (defending one node can waste so much cash). Work with it. Innovate. If there's one basic tenent that's screwing up your game, find a way around it. It's worked for me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have to agree that come to think of it trying to play defencively is usually the Marine's downfall. That's usually the way I command. So yes, partially my fault. I'm not a terrible commander, but I'm a conservative one, and it's hard to play the ground holder when the aliens have so much flexibility and solo-power at their disposal to neatly unmine my defences.
I am aware that things get a bit different in big servers (20 or so players a side). The way the economy works, there's alot more a commander can do with 10 players income versus 8 players. Some economy tweaks to try to prevent such a big impact in balance from server population might be neccessary.
The increase in cost in phase gates will give the aliens a somewhat better chance early in the game, and the Fade nerf will give the marines a somewhat better chance later in the game. We'll just have to wait and see whether or not it works out properly or not.
Actually, the marines get beaten upside the head with the nerf stick, while the kharaa lose a slight slight bit of power. I predict that the win/loss ratio for marines on public servers will go from the current 40/60 (At least that's what it's been in the 100+ games of 1.03 I've played) to something like 24/76. I could be wrong though. Of course, I tend to prefer smaller servers, which is probably why the marines lose so often, small servers are alien advantage, large servers are marine advantage... maybe *that* needs to be balanced.
The games i did play in Marine team were not so good expiriences, lack of teamplay or just plain stupidity in public servers. These 2 reasons made me change my team completely, until i'm willing to try again though.
I have nothing to 'complain' about the sieges or other thing which the patch will fix someday but rather i like to get a patch for us too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Merry christmas everybody!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A. If the Marines use a cheap tactic. (For example, siege cannon through unlikely walls to pin down two hives.)
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Cheap... or effective?
I believe in pretty much everything stated on these pages here:
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart0.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart0.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart1.htm</a>
<a href='http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart2.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_Pla...yToWinPart2.htm</a>
If you can get a tactical advantage, then you need to use it. It doesn't matter if some scrub thinks it is 'cheap.' If it is effective, and the best way to get it done, then you need to do it. Screw honor. We're trying to win, not play bushido.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->B. If the marines have a heavy numerical advantage. (Possibly because of the way the economy works, but possibly also because the commander takes up one spot on the team leaving them down one man on the field at all times.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not so sure on this one, even teams mean an even game. However teams rarely stay even due to the long drawn out nature of Natural-Selection. This is a reason that sometimes marines win, but it is by no means a key reason. Marines can win many other ways, and good commanding along with soldier cooperation are part of those.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->C. If the Marines have a heavy skill advantage. Look at any marine match that was won in which A or B didn't come into effect, and you will see factor I'm not just talking a minor skill advantage, either, I'm talking the aliens would have to be in complete dissarray versus the marines being unnaturally well organized.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill as in pure RTS/FPS ability? Or just organization?
I know a non organized, or very little organized alien team is a crushed alien team. It is hard to stop the phase rushes against good commanders, and if the aliens don't move or work together they lose their hive.
As for skill, even the best of fps players will die sometimes, and they can't be everywhere at once.
I think that the only reason that any team is winning or losing (atleast in pubs, because that is supposedly clan play would be organized amoung clan leaders and members) is the level of organization. Until marine players realize that if they are going to win they need to work out blend of field command and head commander organization, then you are going to see more losses.
It works both ways with either team really. In pubs, organization is key. One team will not always win over the other due to tipped scales in the balance issue, it is just how well your team is working together.
If you scan over the forums more, you'll see a bunch of posts concerning this balance, fighting for either side and whining about how the other isn't balanced (this is my first reply to one of them that wasn't mocking laughter <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->). I think that this is a good indication that the game is quite balanced, and could be tweaked up a bit.
Clan play, I have heard is another matter, but I haven't had my journey into that yet, so I'll keep referring to public play.
And your observations:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->1. Marines cannot effectively hold any ground without constant patrols. This is a real problem because marines are generally quite slow and completely reliant on the commander to tell them where to go. By the time they get to a resource base, it's too late. Phase pads are the best solution I've found to getting marines to the places that need defending, but often the marines are too tied down elsewhere.
Most of the time, your marines are busy, so the job of holding down resources falls entirely to your turrets. Against a single hive turrets can be effective because a skulk and gorge cannot survive under fire of a turret... but only if you have built your turrets "just right" and a single skulk doesn't find an uncovered angle to remove your entire turret farm while your marine's attentions are elsewhere. Against two hives, a single lerk or fade can eliminate entire turret farms, pausing only for their regeneration to heal any damage they may have taken between volleys. Teams of aliens take out turrets farms much faster. Against three hives, turrets are mere annoyances: game over.
End result: Since turrets can only be effective at the start, the Marine's abilities to hold down resources without constant marine patrols is nill. I am now under the belief that making the turrets' operation rely on the existance of a nearby turret factory was a mistake.
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Some turret farms are impossible to take down alone, others... they are easier. Ones with phase gates and one marine patrol, (or even worse -- two) are near impossible to take down unless you can get 3 aliens working it. It depends on the skill of the commander, to assign a patrol or two, and to do correct turret placement. Your expansions SHOULD rely on good turret placement, there's no reason for you to be able to hold a place with a turret factory and 3 randomly placed turrets. The whole reason that the TF is tied to keeping the turrets alive now, is that it is way too hard to take out turret farms without it. Atleast now there is an incentive to put your turrets in the right place.
However, by second hive, you should have a patrol man, working the gates and keeping the fades off, welding what needs to be welded... and by third, you shouldn't have these resource nodes anyway. Third hive is rather end game, and if you let them get this far, well then I only gotta say good luck, cuz you're going to need it.
Is this a flaw in the game? No, no resource base should be entirely self contained. If this were, then it would be way too hard for either team to advance on nodes (as it was with the turret farms that wouldn't die after the factory poofed). As of now the marines have to worry about keeping the turret factory up, and the aliens have to worry about where else to spend their resources (gorges only get so much). Say that all the alien node points have got chambers built up to the cieling... you probably deserve to have to take forever to tear it down, as it took forever (and a bunch of resources) to put up, and if your team let them get these resources, then it comes back down to how organized your team is.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. Even with full Weapon Labs upgrades, a skilled marine with a LMG is generally no match for an equally skilled fade due to the fade's higher speed, durability, acid rocket splash damage, and special abilities (regeneration, blink, cloak, ect). Outfit the marines with better weapons, you say? I might be able to drop a few guns, but I can't afford anything else. If your wondering why, read reason #1 above again. In order to make the middle playing field even, I think a fully upgraded LMG using marine should be able to have a fair shot at taking down a careless fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Due to the mismatch in the ability to take and recieve damage, generally one fully upgraded LMG (but not fully upgraded armor) will die to a fade with carapace. The issue here is how fast you can deal it, and how much it takes to kill you. The fade will hit you with 3 or 4 acid rockets, and you will die. Why? You have no armor, and you can't deal damage as fast as he can. However, your fully upgraded lmg will do more damage over time. That isn't too helpful, but you have to use that to your advantage and stay alive as long as possible. However, this theoretically is mid game, and if you're patrolling you should have some beefed up armor or weaponry, and if you're advancing, then you should be in a group. Then these lone fades will be falling to your lmgs.
As it stands now a fully upgraded lmg dues have a near fair shot at taking down an average fade player, and especially a careless one.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. The Alien's weapons have far more utility to them. Lvl 3 alien weapons are nasty, but their lvl 2 weapons alone have a ton of strategic effectiveness that you can't get out of the marine's mere direct fire weaponry. Acid rockets, umbra clouds and webbing come to mind. The only marine weapon that even comes close is the grenade launcher, and it costs a heap. Again, thanks to #1 above the marines won't get many grenade launchers at all. On top of that, carrying a grenade launcher cripples you at close range and you run the risk of blowing yourself up with it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The alien's weapons do have more utility to them. Yes, well, they are aliens... and you can't expect the marines to get the same set of abilities. You have to make the player want to play one side, then explore the other side because it is refreshingly different. The game can't be symmetrical, there has to be a draw to playing the other side (as it is in RTS games). In playing the aliens, you get cool abilities. In being the marines, you have commander mode (and some guns, which are familiar fps tools).
Natural-selection is partially an RTS, and what makes it refreshing from every other mod out there, is the asymmetrical aspect of each team. In counter-strike, there is very little difference between the two sides besides their spawn location and whether or not they are on the defensive or offensive. Other games, like TFC, are totally symmetric in some cases. Two teams with the same pool of options, fighting for location or objective on a map.
This is why Natural-selection is refreshing! Play the game marines one round, and then play a totally different game as the aliens.
However! Who is to say that there should not be more abilities and weapons added to either side to keep the game fresh? (:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ultimately, the main problem is that the Marines lack flexibility. If there were a few more tools at the Marine's disposal that allowed them to compete - say perhaps spawning with a hand grenade they can lob in an alien occupied vent - they'd be that much more viable.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I offer to counter that the main problem with marines is when they lack organization, they are the easiest to take down. The marines do get flexibility, jetpackers own the vents, and heavy armors that work together and weld own the ground. Motion Sensing tells exactly where the aliens are, and what hives are up. However, the marines have to go through a locked door to get to this stuff, and the only person that has the key is the commander.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you're able to win consistantly as part of a Marine team in 1.03 you have my respect. For me, 1.03 looks like it's a dark day for humanity in the Natural Selection universe.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I, unfortunately, do not get your respect. I am a horrible commander, but can work it out in a pinch. A friend of mine, Destro, is some sort of like commanding god. I can always tell when I'm playing aliens that he's commanding on the other team, because we're getting owned really bad.
And for me, 1.03 is a near perfect incarnation of a game I knew I'd love from it's conception...
Now that I wasted no less than 30 minutes theoretically masturbating on a public message board, I will go back to laughing at any balance post that happens to tickle me.
One of the key flaws I see in marine strategy is totally abandoning the upgrades. A LMG marine with level 2 armour and weapons upgrade is much stronger than a non-upgraded marine, and takes only a small expenditure of resources to affect the entire team. As a fade, I would much rather take on 1 HA/HMG marine with no upgrades than 3 or 4 LA/LMG marines with level 2 upgrades that keep coming back through those damn phase gates.
A) It would mean the marine had spent FAR less (ie 0 RP) on him, to kill that 44 rp Fade.
OR You spent far too much on those upgrades. You could have outiftted the WHOLE TEAM with HA/HMG (in a 5 man team) for that cost, and it would be a much more effective survival for the marines.
B) It would lose one of the best things of this game, the psychological fear the Fade is meant to induce (i.e, if you spammed Fades 3-4 times per spawn, you just wouldn't be bothered about them)
And yes, Conservative commanders ALWAYS lose, as you have to aggresively push the aliens, killing Gorges etc etc.
A) It would mean the marine had spent FAR less (ie 0 RP) on him, to kill that 44 rp Fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Arms Lab = 40.
Upgrade lvl 1 is 20 each, for 40 more.
Upgrade lvl 2 is 40 each for 80 more.
Upgrade lvl 3 is 60 each, for 120 more.
That's 240 resources down the drain. Plus alot of time, about half as long as it takes to bring up a hive for each upgrade. Plus it can be removed if the aliens manage to take out the arms lab.
I like to think that this cost is enough to justify a fully upgraded marine with a LMG being able to effectively fight a 2 hive fade.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->OR You spent far too much on those upgrades. You could have outiftted the WHOLE TEAM with HA/HMG (in a 5 man team) for that cost, and it would be a much more effective survival for the marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At least until one or two fades removes the entire five man team with a few well placed acid rockets. Then guards the weapons until they are removed from the map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->B) It would lose one of the best things of this game, the psychological fear the Fade is meant to induce (i.e, if you spammed Fades 3-4 times per spawn, you just wouldn't be bothered about them)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While I like the psychological fear effect, I don't like the idea of ignoring game balance in favor of it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And yes, Conservative commanders ALWAYS lose, as you have to aggresively push the aliens, killing Gorges etc etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Conservative aliens too, really. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to want to have defences be formidable enough to require the aliens to take them in two man teams instead of soloing them with a single lerk or (in case they find a clever way to get at the turret factory without getting shot) skulk.
Run straight out the left base door firing my LMG straight off the Inf Portal, empty the entire LMG. Switch to pistol empty the entire thing into him; Fade backpedals and starts going down that big two-tiered ramp (not to Horseshoe, the other one) and I reload the LMG and kill him with that. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I probably did it 3-4 times in one game. And not all the same person.
Fades like to run from people who actually chase them and shoot them for some odd reason.
For example:
You have many outposts and one hive linked up by phase gates. For example puproses, the resource nodes are not proctected by any turrets except a phase gate. The phase gate takes some time to actually destroy if a lone skulk happens to stumble across it. Chances are, your Marine team is near a phase gate and then can take it to eliminate the threat.
Depending on how you want to play the game, it will be fun no matter what. The only thing that makes commanding "NOT FUN" is when your Marines can't take down a rush of aliens. Or, when one alien happens to take out five Marines building a specific location. You can pretty much kiss whatever you were building goodbye. Compensate for the loss and head elsewhere. The aliens may think you're going to try and rush that same spot again. Send two troops there while five of your other troops are heading elsewhere to build in another key location.
Marines are hard to play, no doubts. That's what makes the game so fun. The challenge of trying to win with the so-called "lower" team.
Maybee we are protecting our beloved Fade a bit to much.
Hmm, all balance things aside, when the COMM SOUND fix happens in 1.04, if they cant secure 1 or 2 hives quick with it the way it is now, dont you think it will be harder for the Marines then. Unless aliens are nerfed, I think that as some said the Marine / Alien win kill will be even more offset, to Alien side. Im sure 1.04's already in the works and the decisions been made.
I'm also able to eliminate entire marine turret farms quite effectively with a Lerk or Fade with regeneration. I snipe the turrets at long range, once enough of them are gone I move in and chew up the turret factory. I usually only need to eliminate one or two turrets to get a good angle to start chewing up the turret factory. If I get damaged by the turret, I just sit back and regenerate a bit. This goes extremely well with cloaking if available. (Suffice to say, the reason why I know marine defences are next to useless is not entirely because of my Commanding experiences so much as my expertese in eliminating marine defences firsthand.)
If the marines are patrolling things are much harder. I'll usually fly away and/or cloak until they marine goes away. Fortunately for me, the marines are usually so busy elsewhere that they are not able to spare anyone to defend until it is too late. Again, I generally play on 16 player servers, so this may be why.
4marines vs 4 aliens = very little chance of a marine victory
10 marines vs 10 aliens. 50/50 chance of winning all being equal.
How to fix it? Bugger if i know. But 1.04 wotn help a jot though im happy with the seige cannon changes.
The biggest 2 imbalnces in NS
The ease of alien tkaing and holding res
How powerful and verstale fades are. These guys win games signle handedly, last nite as the only fade to survive our 2nd hives early death i took 30 LMG and HMG (no HA) kills by myself and won th game. That was a 8 v 8 game and im not a very good player.
My advise? Remove acid rocket (replace with a close range attack) and give lerks umbra at level 1. Result? Turrets are still ok vs level 2 aliens and aliens get a chance vs well placed pahsed turret farms in level 1. because level 2 fade will 90% of the time be facing only LMG's and not there nemisis HMG+HA.
ps: Isnt it silly to give a 4 rocket hit death marine 25res HMG and no HA?
However, I don't know how well this will turn out for smaller games. I haven't played in a small server for awhile now, and nor do I plan to. I guess I'll just have to wait to see the message boards spammed with, "v1.04 SUCKS!!" or "v1.04 nerfed the marines!!", or possibly "v1.04 r0x0rz my b0x0rz!"
I am not very expert in this game but I love team strategy games.
Bye.
but then again, everything is easy against a careless anything.
I seriously don't think the marines were underpowered before. I'm not saying the commanders were bad either, its just that they've been following the wrong overall strategy with turrets.
PS, I have won a game against 3 hives before. Almost all the aliens were busy chomping down on our base, but I'd been giving out mass jetpacks and hmgs. Had a bunch of resouces left over and managed to siege two hives at once and get a second base up. I guess I got lucky considering almost all their players went onos.. My marines had quite a bit of fun sitting out of their reach and blasting them.
I have to agree that fades are uber powerful right now. I prefer a Fade over an Onos any day. I basically just give my fade regeneration and lay down some serious acid-rocket smack. Yesterday night once I took down 3 marines in 4 shots, poor fellows had managed to run into eachother at just the wrong angle to get maximum exposure to my acid rocket splash damage.
What was really nasty though is when I got together with two fades with my Lerk with regeneration. I provided constant umbra. At least one of the other fades had regeneration too. Basically, the fades stuck inside of the umbra cloud and just layed down acid rockets to any marines we happened to run into. We were absolutely unstoppable - any chance the marines had to swarm and overwhelm my lerk was easily removed by the twin acid rocket action of the fades. The marines could not afford a grenade launcher, even though they had managed to hold down one of our hives in Epsilon and might have had some resources going in Tri-core and station access alpha. We wiped out the defences in Episilon easily, our regeneration healing what little damage the turrets managed to get through the umbra cloud, then immediately walzed over to the marine base with the same 3 players using the same tactic and wiped out the marine's 7 (8th in the commander pod) players without any problem at all.
So, while perhaps the Aliens were not majorly nerfed in 1.04, I think it's probably just a matter of time.