Turret Triangle Formation Is Well...
Canadianmonk3y
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8465Members
Join Date: 2002-11-13 Member: 8465Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Useless.</div> Often, commanders waste resources building a TF in the middle of some hallway, and they try to cover it with 3-4 turrets.
Why this is bad:
Blindspots. Kill one turret and the tfac is open for munching.
The cure:
Build a TF against a wall, or even better, in a corner, BUT you have to have it CLOSE to the wall (for all those less-than-intelligent commanders who somehow place them every single time nowhere near the wall, and do not even cover the tf's backside...), so that skulks cannot fit behind it. If you put it in a corner, you just need one turret to be as effective as the triangle formation, and if it is against a wall, you just need two. The savings really add up.
TFs in the open are a waste.
Then we have ns_nancy.
One thing I REALLY HATE is commanders who make a tf in the marine spawn. Ok, the tf is ok, and needs to be done eventually, but what happens 99% of the time is that the commander places two turrets on the ramp up, and nothing else. What are those two turrets going to do?
<b><i><u>NOTHING</u></i></b>
Skulks run past them, effectively wasting the 38 RUs that could have been much better spent on something more useful.
Another point.
Turrets are NOT defense.
They are there to STALL the aliens, not stop them.
They are there to keep the skulks from munching on your important stuff (PGs, IPs, obs, etc...) at leisure. They will not stop a coordinated skulk rush, but they WILL add time to get the marines respawned and back into the action.
Why this is bad:
Blindspots. Kill one turret and the tfac is open for munching.
The cure:
Build a TF against a wall, or even better, in a corner, BUT you have to have it CLOSE to the wall (for all those less-than-intelligent commanders who somehow place them every single time nowhere near the wall, and do not even cover the tf's backside...), so that skulks cannot fit behind it. If you put it in a corner, you just need one turret to be as effective as the triangle formation, and if it is against a wall, you just need two. The savings really add up.
TFs in the open are a waste.
Then we have ns_nancy.
One thing I REALLY HATE is commanders who make a tf in the marine spawn. Ok, the tf is ok, and needs to be done eventually, but what happens 99% of the time is that the commander places two turrets on the ramp up, and nothing else. What are those two turrets going to do?
<b><i><u>NOTHING</u></i></b>
Skulks run past them, effectively wasting the 38 RUs that could have been much better spent on something more useful.
Another point.
Turrets are NOT defense.
They are there to STALL the aliens, not stop them.
They are there to keep the skulks from munching on your important stuff (PGs, IPs, obs, etc...) at leisure. They will not stop a coordinated skulk rush, but they WILL add time to get the marines respawned and back into the action.
Comments
I think the problem with most Commanders is that they probably don't play skulk very often.
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So you want to place them like that not like
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because skulks can just run around other of those turrets and chew it and then turret factory in the lower pic. In the upper pic its much more difficult because the turrets are coverin each other.
Edit: Ok, so I screwed up the pics(dunno why, they seemeed different when I made them) but I think you get the idea.
On the other hand, a TFac in the middle of a room, with 3 turrets in a triangle around it, doesn't have *any* blindspots, so an attacking skulk is always getting hit.
The turrets also cover each other in a triangle formation, so if a skulk is attacking one, it's getting hit by 2 others.
But, why would you even try to hold an area with only a TFac in the first place? If it's not worth putting a phase gate up there as well, it's not worth trying to hold. And when the gate goes up, your marines can get their quick enough to stop an attacking skulk.
On the other hand, a TFac in the middle of a room, with 3 turrets in a triangle around it, doesn't have *any* blindspots, so an attacking skulk is always getting hit.
The turrets also cover each other in a triangle formation, so if a skulk is attacking one, it's getting hit by 2 others.
But, why would you even try to hold an area with only a TFac in the first place? If it's not worth putting a phase gate up there as well, it's not worth trying to hold. And when the gate goes up, your marines can get their quick enough to stop an attacking skulk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, the TF in the corner DOES NOT have space for a skulk to crawl into if they were placed correctly.
That being said, ALL the turrets you place after that cover eachother AND the TF. Instead of covering 360 degrees, the turrets only have to cover 180 or 90, and it is much easier to cover other turrets if they are like that.
Why you need a TF at hives:
Good skulks.
Bad luck happens. Sometimes your entire squad gets killed by a group of rushing carapaced skulks. Anything else that comes through the gate turns into a free meal.
Edit: Just thought of a flaw in my idea.. There would be no warning the place is infested if the aliens decide not to chew the phases up. No "Sentry Firing" =| So hey.. Well. Might be worth trying anyway?
Key word in there being <b>correctly</b>. You don't have much to work with in way of altering how the TFac is placed. If you could rotate it or something, it would be nice, but I don't forsee that ever happening. There are lots of little bugs on each of the maps that also prevent a commander from issuing orders to some locations, placing buildings in some locations, etc. Tanith is probably the worst, I can't seem to do anything correctly on that map.
Plus, most Hive locations are rather large. Turrets don't always have the range to cover the whole room, or at least from a corner to the actual Hive itself. Most of the time they do, I'm just pointing this out.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why you need a TF at hives:
Good skulks.
Bad luck happens. Sometimes your entire squad gets killed by a group of rushing carapaced skulks. Anything else that comes through the gate turns into a free meal.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never said that you don't need a TFac at Hives. You do. You also need phase gates if you expect to hold it for any length of time, however.
Plus, most Hive locations are rather large. Turrets don't always have the range to cover the whole room, or at least from a corner to the actual Hive itself. Most of the time they do, I'm just pointing this out.
I never said that you don't need a TFac at Hives. You do. You also need phase gates if you expect to hold it for any length of time, however.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I mean CORRECTLY placed by the commander.
When you are in the CC, you have the outline of the TF, ready to place.
To correctly place it, you have to have the horizontal part about 1/3 into the wall, and the vertical about the same. The TF will be sticking out of the level, but that does not matter, as skulks cannot get behind it even if it is diagonal with the corner that you placed it in.
A skulk has <b>NEVER</b> fit behind a TF that I have placed doing this. Many have tried... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Tanith is pretty easily to defend actually...
The hives are not huge, and have little vent access, and the vents there are long and straight, or weldable.
When I refer to up/down, I mean in the CC, and the marine start is in bottom left.
Waste Handling:
The key to this hive is the top area. Place the TF against the wall at the bottom and 3/4 to the left of that top plateau. Place lots of turrets to cover the TF. Bing, secured.
Fusion reactor:
This is the hardest, but is not all that difficult. TF against the wall at some part of the room, and a bunch of turrets around it.
Satcom:
At the top part of the room, there are small crelelations jutting out from the wall. Toss a TF into the corner there, and turrets around it...
About the phase gate thing... Yeah, I know, phase gates are a given. I dont even think about it anymore, as it would just be very stupid to not use them.
I thought you were saying that TFs and turrets were useless, and a phase gate was all you needed... <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for turret triangles.... theoretically it works.
Plz note the word theoretically.
As with all theories, whenever you put it into practice something goes wrong.
Offensive triangle position(2 up front one in back):
What's wrong? This is the ideal defensive positioning as it forces the baddies to rund through the fire to get to the back one(the weak point). Problem is with that. The back is the weak point. Get enough baddies and you're screwed! Doesn't matter where the tf is in all this.
Defensive triancle position(2 in back one up front):
Problem, range issues. You're out gunned.
TF in a corner and built around:
Main problem is range. Coordinated alien teams always obliterate towers.
So as stated before, turrets are not meant to be the end all of defense.(As opposed to the offense chamber, which can pass somewhat). Turrets are meant to buy time/supplement defense. So comms don't say, ah 4 turrets up in spot x... we're fine. Cause then I say, munchies.... turrets....
Turrets are there to keep the skulks from munching on phase gates and the RTs at hives.
1 turretfactory 25 res.
How meny turrets can you build for 25 res ?
THAT is how inportent a turretfatory is.
If you build 3 turrets around the turretfatory and the aliens take out the res. tower. the turretfatory is not worth building. After all whit out new res. you will lose. The players on you team ALLWAYS run after the hives and alien any way if you dont give them somthing to build. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> That is both good and bad. Can bee good if some of the ppl in you team do that. bad if every 1 in you team do that. That is when you find you dont have any spawns left afther your team take out 2 hives and they built 1 new hive, becase 1 fade and some other aliens rush the spawnpoint. My point is: turrets if not deffence, it is backup for the marines. As the maker of the bok "Art of war" ( Sun Su? ) so well pointed out: You cant bee strong every where. A commanders strenght is not in the turrets but in the marine and how well outfited he is and how he follows orders.
There is only need for 2 turrets to deffend a fatory, the last turret is there to deffend the res. tower when i Command.
So i make the triangle whit 2 of the lines crossing the turretfatory and the res. tower.
I know i the walls are good. Still, you cant build att the walls every where.
Sorry if it got long and boring.
1 turretfactory 25 res.
How meny turrets can you build for 25 res ?
THAT is how inportent a turretfatory is.
If you build 3 turrets around the turretfatory and the aliens take out the res. tower. the turretfatory is not worth building. After all whit out new res. you will lose. The players on you team ALLWAYS run after the hives and alien any way if you dont give them somthing to build. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> That is both good and bad. Can bee good if some of the ppl in you team do that. bad if every 1 in you team do that. That is when you find you dont have any spawns left afther your team take out 2 hives and they built 1 new hive, becase 1 fade and some other aliens rush the spawnpoint. My point is: turrets if not deffence, it is backup for the marines. As the maker of the bok "Art of war" ( Sun Su? ) so well pointed out: You cant bee strong every where. A commanders strenght is not in the turrets but in the marine and how well outfited he is and how he follows orders.
There is only need for 2 turrets to deffend a fatory, the last turret is there to deffend the res. tower when i Command.
So i make the triangle whit 2 of the lines crossing the turretfatory and the res. tower.
I know i the walls are good. Still, you cant build att the walls every where.
Sorry if it got long and boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a lot of resources to defend a 22pt resource tower. I havn't tried this, but how about putting phase gates near some res points and then getting marines to spawn around to kill the enemies attacking the res towers (and welding them back up)? Then you save most of those resources you'd spend on defense. Or even forget about defending res towers unless there are two or more there. It is 22 points for a res tower and if the aliens don't always take them down right away, it might be worth just rebuilding instead of spending a lot of defense. Even just going to stop them and weld it back up can save u a lot, as long as there isn't a big group of aliens that kill all your res towers right away all the time.
1 turretfactory 25 res.
How meny turrets can you build for 25 res ?
THAT is how inportent a turretfatory is.
If you build 3 turrets around the turretfatory and the aliens take out the res. tower. the turretfatory is not worth building. After all whit out new res. you will lose. The players on you team ALLWAYS run after the hives and alien any way if you dont give them somthing to build. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> That is both good and bad. Can bee good if some of the ppl in you team do that. bad if every 1 in you team do that. That is when you find you dont have any spawns left afther your team take out 2 hives and they built 1 new hive, becase 1 fade and some other aliens rush the spawnpoint. My point is: turrets if not deffence, it is backup for the marines. As the maker of the bok "Art of war" ( Sun Su? ) so well pointed out: You cant bee strong every where. A commanders strenght is not in the turrets but in the marine and how well outfited he is and how he follows orders.
There is only need for 2 turrets to deffend a fatory, the last turret is there to deffend the res. tower when i Command.
So i make the triangle whit 2 of the lines crossing the turretfatory and the res. tower.
I know i the walls are good. Still, you cant build att the walls every where.
Sorry if it got long and boring.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, you might want to word what you are trying to say to make it not hurt the eyes of people who look at it...
Better to not go out and try to cap res if you just grabbed 2 hives. One extra RT will not help very much, and it just creates yet another spot to defend. Better to just use up all your res to wall your base and the two hives you captured with turrets to be more secure...
Turret Factories are never a permanent solution and should be considered as a necessary evil to those who dont like them.
Well, sucks for you. Some things are fact when they are said, such as phase gates being necessary.
Turrets are also necessary if you want to hold two hives for the entire game.
Both statements are FACTS.
At least if youu are playing with anyone that has any skill whatsoever...
Well, sucks for you. Some things are fact when they are said, such as phase gates being necessary.
Turrets are also necessary if you want to hold two hives for the entire game.
Both statements are FACTS.
At least if youu are playing with anyone that has any skill whatsoever...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with you Blackout...
Games can be won without phase gates. Games can be won without turrets. Games can also be won without both, although now you're really making things hard for yourself. Maybe you're hitting the Kharaa so hard they don't have time to try for your undefended hives...
They're not necessary. In most games, they're a darn good idea, but stop throwing about "it's a fact that they're necessary." Don't make someone bust out a definition of "fact"...
I agree. This thread started out as a well-meaning discussion of the three turret formation, but turned into a "OMG MY IDEA IS TEH BETTAH!" thread.
ps apparently the person sitting next to me in C++ named jim says hi <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Or for needing/not needing turrets eventually in the game is like arguing that you do not need a hero in W3 to beat good people online. It is simply necessary, and is never not.
Or for needing/not needing turrets eventually in the game is like arguing that you do not need a hero in W3 to beat good people online. It is simply necessary, and is never not.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is what Error404: and SilverHorse were talking about.
While you think placing a TFac against a wall is always the best solution, it may not be. Take Feedwater in ns_bast, for example - the terrain in that place makes it impossible to set up decent turret formation no matter how you try to set them up.
You have to be adaptable - personally, I always have better luck with the triangle formation, but I'm not about to purposely NOT use the against-the-wall method if I think it will work better.
You have to be adaptable - personally, I always have better luck with the triangle formation, but I'm not about to purposely NOT use the against-the-wall method if I think it will work better.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Feedwater?
Place the Tfac up against the wall, a bit off from the RT.
Leaving it in the middle of the room leaves more sides uncovered, and instead of the skulks being forced to destroy most if not all of the turrets before they start on the TF, they are allowed to kill a single turret, and then proceed on to the TF.
The least amount of sides in covering TFs, the better. 100% of the time.
Some times it might not be better is when it is on a wall opposite a vent, as lerks can shoot out of the vent, directly at the TF without even bothering with the turrets. Then again, it is easy to place the TF against a different wall.
I could care less if I sound like I am demanding people to do this or not. It is by far the best option hands down, and saying that a triangle formation works better is just plain stupidity or ignorance. How can three turrets covering eachother and the tf all at once be worse than the same cost formation which is destructable by destroying a SINGLE turret, and the turrets do not even cover eachother.
Except for when placing the TF more in the middle of an area extends the possible placement of sentries to some extremely advantageous positions. Yes, it takes another sentry or two to obtain the same protection for the TF, but there are many situations where this is not only acceptable, but desirable.
Drop the "fact", "100%", and "hands-down" crap, and you won't anger nearly as many people. Make your points without resorting to insulting the suggestions of others and proclaiming the undisputed superiority of yours, please.
If not, why not?
* - Turret
Rectangle = TF
¤ = RT
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++ = phase
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The above is when you just want a TF to defend a certain spot. Lets say it doesn't end up correctly and you have a lil gap diagonally...
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Put a turret right on top of the TF.
Lets say you want to cover an RT that's near the TF but isn't near the wall...
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You want to make sure that the arc of the turrets forms a triangle around the RT, while the extra turret you place is still covered by the turrets covering the TF.
The RT above is well covered because of the placement. I'll draw the path which the turrets can fire.
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The RT is well surrounded by the triangle.
Phases should be placed directly in front of the 3 turrets to ensure that it cannot be killed that quickly by kamikaze skulks.
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A very important thing to remember is NEVER to isolate turrets. Isolated turrets are always the easiest to anklebite or headbite. Supposing you don't want to risk a turret near the wall and you want to upgrade the TF to an ATF, you should do this.
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You want an extra turret on the TF itself to ensure that 2 turrets have to be killed before the TF can be reached, while losing one turret still keeps the formation intact while each turret is still covered by another. To even strengthen this formation...
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The reason not to do...
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is because having 2 turrets closer to the TF makes anklebiting harder.