Ok Silver Fox (btw, Rei rules)...so your saying that the Marines shouldn't have any technology to match the Kharaa 3rd Tier.
This is as if Blizzard decided to remove the Battlecruiser and Valkerie (sp?) from the Terran lineup so the Protoss could devestate once they got 2 or 3 Carriers.
The Marines were raped every time. This was a lanvancouver server, and I play marines there often. I have never seen such a bloodbath. Usually, both teams are pretty skilled, and in 1.3 I've seen a hardy bunch of Marines manage to push back the Aliens and win (every now and then... quite often the Marines fall simply because of persistent Skulks with Carapace, and now with 1.4 the Skulk rush is that much more powerful).
I think its pretty obvious that in many ways the Marines are at a disadvantage. Perhaps the dev team thought the Marines would develop superior strategies. Well, in many servers I've seen the Alien team work together too, and in perfect unison they're invincible. Even with a godlike commander and a competent Marine team, the Marines are obviously disadvantaged.
I appreciate the dev team taking the plunge and changing how the siege cannon works. It was boring, just building it and letting it do the work. But its also boring having the game end up two ways: 20% of the time, the Aliens get two hives and Carapace and Adren, but the Marines squeeze by with one hive, and after an hour of getting eaten and upgrading their bums off, they manage to heroically take the second hive. Then all the Aliens hit F4 in disgust, and that's that. 80% of the time, however, the Aliens simply rape the Marines and the Marines stick around and watch the Onos stampede with sick fascination.
I could blather on, but I'm just going to say at this point Natural Selection has gotten rather boring. Before, I've kept my mouth shut and taken it like a Marine should. This is the first time I'm crying Nerf.
So a yell out to the devs: this is another player complaining. I know NS is new, so keep changing the game. But whatever you do, don't keep the dynamic it has now. Its just no fun.
<img src='http://forums.firearmsmod.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'><img src='http://forums.firearmsmod.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'><img src='http://forums.firearmsmod.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'> Fear my army of sarcasim and apathy!
I don't want anyone to shave his head and start worshipping Flayra (although if you want to get rid of your earthly belongings, I'd be happy to take the burden <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->). I did, however, see literally dozens of threads concerning a patch that's not even <i>out</i> in the last weeks, and to be honest, it's starting to get on my nerves.
I don't want to stand in the way of a public discussion - note how this thread isn't locked, just like the 'Knee Jerk Reaction' thread - but if you set your title as 'Remind Me Again Why Marines Are Getting Nerfed?', you <i>are</i> assuming that what is in the changlog will be released. All I ask for is not opening the tenth discussion on the same topic, and trying to keep it non-provocative.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Dec 31 2002, 10:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Dec 31 2002, 10:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want anyone to shave his head and start worshipping Flayra (although if you want to get rid of your earthly belongings, I'd be happy to take the burden <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->). I did, however, see literally dozens of threads concerning a patch that's not even <i>out</i> in the last weeks, and to be honest, it's starting to get on my nerves.
I don't want to stand in the way of a public discussion - note how this thread isn't locked, just like the 'Knee Jerk Reaction' thread - but if you set your title as 'Remind Me Again Why Marines Are Getting Nerfed?', you <i>are</i> assuming that what is in the changlog will be released. All I ask for is not opening the tenth discussion on the same topic, and trying to keep it non-provocative.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it ok if some starts a Flayra worshipping thread?
Look, I dont play Starcraft, so that analogy doesn't really help
Regardless, I assume you think the marines should have something "equal" to an onos?
Perhaps like a giant Mech or something.
The only problem with this is, the marines are supposed to act like a team. There is nothing, nor will there ever be anything, that a single marine - hell even two - can go toe to toe with an onos.
It wont ever happen.
The marines are a team, they need to act like one in order to kill an onos. Trust me, four or so HA HMG marines makes short work of an onos.
Hell, I almost killed a fully healed, fully armored onos with out any support from my commander with nothing but a "stock" LMG and pistol.
Me vs Onos - 1 on 1.
I would have won too, if it werent for that damn Fade that came in and killed me when I was about to blast my last clip into it.
If you dont believe me, just go ask KFS ... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/1/icon6.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Dec 31 2002, 02:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Dec 31 2002, 02:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't want anyone to shave his head and start worshipping Flayra (although if you want to get rid of your earthly belongings, I'd be happy to take the burden <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> My responce: <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I think that would get Flyra would get a bit creeped out by that. I'll just stick with camping in his bushes thank you. (J/K)
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Issue #1: the Infantry Portal rush. This is the marine tactic of building a CC and 3-5 IPs directly outside the alien hive, and simply out-spawning the alien team. This is not how the game was meant to be played. Increase in IP cost prevents this.
Issue #2: the Phase Gate rush, and Phase Gate tactics in general. The tactic of building a phase outside the hive and outspawning/reinforcing through the Gate. Increase in IP and PG cost and decrease in PG health counter this. These changes also return Phase Gates to their role as a support building in an established outpost, rather than a lone offensive building.
Issue #3: Siege Cannon range in the Bast marine spawn and Hera's "2-hive siege" problem. 1100 was the range of the siege just before 1.0 was released, and the 1250 was not heavily tested before public release. Reducing the range to a well-tested and balanced amount will fix this problem.
Those are actual balance changes. The LMG ammo change and welder damage changes are negligible. The welder is NOT meant to be a combat weapon. It's not even meant to be used to kill buildings. It's made to REPAIR buildings and WELD weldables. That's it. Damage is incidental to its true function.
Now then... Let's look at the pro-marine changes. Namely, the reduction of the Fade's splash damage from 200 to 165. To echo your analysis of the other changes, that's a 17.5% decrease... which is actually a fair amount. That damage becomes even less the farther you are from the site of impact. Additionally, a decrease in splash damage also decreases the RANGE of the splash itself. This is actually a fairly potent balance change, and I think more extensive play will show if it is or is not sufficient. If it's not, I imagine it will drop more.
As for the 2 hives/3 hives controversy... yes, marines ought to lose if the aliens get 3 hives. They can come back, but it's unlikely. You don't expect aliens to win if the marines have taken 2 hive locations and are attacking skulks and lerks with HA/HMG/GL, do you? Exactly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Jetto+Dec 31 2002, 10:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jetto @ Dec 31 2002, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My responce: <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I think that would get Flyra would get a bit creeped out by that. I'll just stick with camping in his bushes thank you. (J/K)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that you had to tell use you were joking disturbs me.....
Heh, its nigh on impossible to keep it non-provocative....there's always that Marines players vs. Kharaa Players thing. As for the "Remind me again..." title, well...I guess I thought it'd get the attention. And dear god it did...
Silver Fox, I have taken down about 3 Onos with the LMG/Pistol combo. Its a rare sight, but OMG is it entertaining to see the players replies. Anyway, I'm not saying we should have some equivelent giant mech. But it makes sense for a army like this to have some kind of heavy explosives. The game doesn't have a single grenade in it, nor any kind of missle launcher. The biggest boom we can make is with mines, and thos only work as a 1st line of defense or a warning system. I think it would help to have some kind of projectile weapon that explodes on contact.
I don't care what they do to NS, as long as there are BIG CHANGES in the next patches. I want to see the gameplay go places it hasn't. Isn't that what NS is all about? Daring to go where no mod has gone before?
[edit] And I DON'T mean new weapons (not necessarily, anyways). Just changes that force a shift in gameplay somehow or another. I leave it up to Flayra and the devs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think it would help to have some kind of projectile weapon that explodes on contact. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Step#1: Let your commander drop a <i>Grenade</i> Launcher. Step#2: Search an Onos. Step#3: Aim in its general direction. Step#4: Watch the <i>grenades</i> rip it apart.
<!--QuoteBegin--|SemperFi|+Dec 31 2002, 02:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|SemperFi| @ Dec 31 2002, 02:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Jetto+Dec 31 2002, 10:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jetto @ Dec 31 2002, 10:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->My responce: <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I think that would get Flyra would get a bit creeped out by that. I'll just stick with camping in his bushes thank you. (J/K)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The fact that you had to tell use you were joking disturbs me..... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm so proud.
The Grenade Launcher is difficult to use on a Onos and live to tell the tale. Sure, you may hit the Onos with a nade, but you'll get gored shortly after. By the way, do the grenades blow up on impact if they hit a enemy? I thought they always had a timer.
And when I said grenades, I meant actual grenades. As in ones that you pull the pin out of and throw. It'd be a tad easier to kill an Onos if you could pull the pin and wait. Anyone here ever played America's Army? You can pull the pin out and arm it in your hand by right clicking...it allows you the option of timing your throws.
Distinct lack of Q2:Gloom players in this thread <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Firstly I'd LOVE to see the gloom mech in but at an absolutly REDICULAS cost, it could be used in a similar manner to the way the ONOS is often used a sort of:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We've beaten you, we know we've beaten you but just so you REALLY REALLY KNOW HOW MUCH YOU SUCK. We're going to all stay skulk till we have 3 hives and THEN we're going to come in with 7 onos<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make the research cost say 500 res minimum. C'mon It'd be comical <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Secondly @ evoL:ving:eviL : NS isn't really going many places that haven't been gone befor, FPS with a commander? Tribes. Aliens vs Marines with buildings? Gloom.
What it IS doing is being absolutly painfully kickarse. And just generally BETTER than all the games that have gone befor <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
All hail the mighty Flyra! Destroyer of worlds!! Shamer of devs who get payed to pump out manure like games!!! Un-Abashed stealer of other peoples good ideas!!!!!
Flyra Flyra FLYRA FLYRA! <b>FLYRA!!</b>
Let us find the un-belivers and vanquish them!!!!!!!!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--sekdar+Dec 31 2002, 04:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sekdar @ Dec 31 2002, 04:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines' early game > Kharaa early game Marines' midgame < Kharaa midgame Marines' lategame < Kharaa lategame
The first two need to be =, and there lies the problem.
These "nerfs" are to tone down the marine early game and give a slight toning down to kharaa midgame.
Chaosdragon is 100% right about aliens winning. An organized marine team will SLAUGHTER an equally organized kharaa team (assuming equal skill of course). If you don't believe it, you haven't seen organized marines yet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, but the thing is lowering HP, and raising costs does sort of balace the FIRST part of the game but then the second and LAST part are put HEAVILY into the alien's favor...
Many games i've played, we've tried to rebuild the base near the end of the game.. when we have physically 0 res nodes left, but we still get some res... the CC takes enough res.. then the 20 needed for ONE infantry portal.. that's a LOT and makes making a second base all TOO difficult
the phase gate's HP lowering makes it easier for skulks to take one down.. but when fades come, it's all TOO easy to take down.
(not to mention if you use it, you'll die once the fade swipes you)
i played on 1.03 some more.. and the SIEGE nerfs seemed all too needed.. it's for the better I was the gorge in ns_nancy, and we had subspace.. i capped 3 or 4 res nodes, and got the hive up.. i built some really really good defense at ENGINE, and had the D chambers, and everything, and built at Subspace.. .. built a really good defense there, too.. then the marines setup a siege (they were at nameless probably 50% of the game).. the siege took down the hive, and we lost fades... it really sucked.. the team didn't really seem to care after that point..
we could have easily made a comeback.. everybody had max'd out res... (even me) but, alas, the server crashed
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Dec 31 2002, 03:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Dec 31 2002, 03:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All hail the mighty Flyra! Destroyer of worlds!! Shamer of devs who get payed to pump out manure like games!!! Un-Abashed stealer of other peoples good ideas!!!!!
Flyra Flyra FLYRA FLYRA! <b>FLYRA!!</b>
Let us find the un-belivers and vanquish them!!!!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What he said. But your forgot that he is Uber L337.
<!--QuoteBegin--OdDmor+Dec 31 2002, 11:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OdDmor @ Dec 31 2002, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Grenade Launcher is difficult to use on a Onos and live to tell the tale. Sure, you may hit the Onos with a nade, but you'll get gored shortly after. By the way, do the grenades blow up on impact if they hit a enemy? I thought they always had a timer.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's what Silver, Coil, and the rest were trying to tell you - yes, a single GL marine will get gibbed, but let two HMG marines cover that guy, and the Onos is charred meat. And yes, grenades explode on impact.
[edit]By the way, the mans name is 'Flayra'. Thanks.[/edit]
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Dec 31 2002, 11:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Dec 31 2002, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All hail the mighty Flyra! Destroyer of worlds!! Shamer of devs who get payed to pump out manure like games!!! Un-Abashed stealer of other peoples good ideas!!!!!
Flyra Flyra FLYRA FLYRA! <b>FLYRA!!</b>
Let us find the un-belivers and vanquish them!!!!!!!!!!
<!--QuoteBegin--OdDmor+Dec 31 2002, 06:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OdDmor @ Dec 31 2002, 06:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is as if Blizzard decided to remove the Battlecruiser and Valkerie (sp?) from the Terran lineup so the Protoss could devestate once they got 2 or 3 Carriers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, this is from the third page, but I'm replying to it anyway.
If the situation were indeed exactly as you describe it, then yes, that would be pretty unbalanced. But it's not. As I said before in my earlier post in this thread, the aliens must fight and expand to reach the top of their tech tree, whereas there is <b>nothing</b> stopping the marines from researching everything in the tech tree, provided they have enough resources. In other words, to use your example as a reference, yes, the Terrans have no Battlecruisers, but the Protoss can <b>not</b> build a single Carrier unless they manage to hold three crucial locations on the map. All the Terrans have to do is prevent the Protoss from reaching <b>just one</b> of those crucial locations, and not a single Carrier will <b>ever</b> be built. This is why there is no need for an "Onos counter." On the other hand, the Protoss can not prevent the Terrans from getting their higher-level units in any way besides denying them resources. Yes, it's not entirely equal, and arguably "unbalanced", but the differences between the teams is just one of the things that makes NS rock.
And it's "Flayra", not "Flyra", for God's sake. Get it right. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--GWAR+Dec 31 2002, 10:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GWAR @ Dec 31 2002, 10:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have to be pretty stupid to miss a Onos with a GL, its the only "onos counter" Marines have<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm never tried but what would an Onos do when he enters a wallway full of mines ?
I rarely see commander dropping mines, but boy when they drop it it really helps !
Comments
nope, wasnt me ...
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/1/icon3.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
This is as if Blizzard decided to remove the Battlecruiser and Valkerie (sp?) from the Terran lineup so the Protoss could devestate once they got 2 or 3 Carriers.
Flayra! Flayra! S/he's our wo/man! If S/he can't do it.....life won't be worth living anymore. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
The Marines were raped every time. This was a lanvancouver server, and I play marines there often. I have never seen such a bloodbath. Usually, both teams are pretty skilled, and in 1.3 I've seen a hardy bunch of Marines manage to push back the Aliens and win (every now and then... quite often the Marines fall simply because of persistent Skulks with Carapace, and now with 1.4 the Skulk rush is that much more powerful).
I think its pretty obvious that in many ways the Marines are at a disadvantage. Perhaps the dev team thought the Marines would develop superior strategies. Well, in many servers I've seen the Alien team work together too, and in perfect unison they're invincible. Even with a godlike commander and a competent Marine team, the Marines are obviously disadvantaged.
I appreciate the dev team taking the plunge and changing how the siege cannon works. It was boring, just building it and letting it do the work. But its also boring having the game end up two ways: 20% of the time, the Aliens get two hives and Carapace and Adren, but the Marines squeeze by with one hive, and after an hour of getting eaten and upgrading their bums off, they manage to heroically take the second hive. Then all the Aliens hit F4 in disgust, and that's that. 80% of the time, however, the Aliens simply rape the Marines and the Marines stick around and watch the Onos stampede with sick fascination.
I could blather on, but I'm just going to say at this point Natural Selection has gotten rather boring. Before, I've kept my mouth shut and taken it like a Marine should. This is the first time I'm crying Nerf.
So a yell out to the devs: this is another player complaining. I know NS is new, so keep changing the game. But whatever you do, don't keep the dynamic it has now. Its just no fun.
Fear my army of sarcasim and apathy!
To |SemperFi|: <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't want to stand in the way of a public discussion - note how this thread isn't locked, just like the 'Knee Jerk Reaction' thread - but if you set your title as 'Remind Me Again Why Marines Are Getting Nerfed?', you <i>are</i> assuming that what is in the changlog will be released.
All I ask for is not opening the tenth discussion on the same topic, and trying to keep it non-provocative.
I don't want to stand in the way of a public discussion - note how this thread isn't locked, just like the 'Knee Jerk Reaction' thread - but if you set your title as 'Remind Me Again Why Marines Are Getting Nerfed?', you <i>are</i> assuming that what is in the changlog will be released.
All I ask for is not opening the tenth discussion on the same topic, and trying to keep it non-provocative.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Is it ok if some starts a Flayra worshipping thread?
Regardless, I assume you think the marines should have something "equal" to an onos?
Perhaps like a giant Mech or something.
The only problem with this is, the marines are supposed to act like a team. There is nothing, nor will there ever be anything, that a single marine - hell even two - can go toe to toe with an onos.
It wont ever happen.
The marines are a team, they need to act like one in order to kill an onos. Trust me, four or so HA HMG marines makes short work of an onos.
Hell, I almost killed a fully healed, fully armored onos with out any support from my commander with nothing but a "stock" LMG and pistol.
Me vs Onos - 1 on 1.
I would have won too, if it werent for that damn Fade that came in and killed me when I was about to blast my last clip into it.
If you dont believe me, just go ask KFS ...
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/1/icon6.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
My responce: <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I think that would get Flyra would get a bit creeped out by that. I'll just stick with camping in his bushes thank you. (J/K)
Issue #2: the Phase Gate rush, and Phase Gate tactics in general. The tactic of building a phase outside the hive and outspawning/reinforcing through the Gate. Increase in IP and PG cost and decrease in PG health counter this. These changes also return Phase Gates to their role as a support building in an established outpost, rather than a lone offensive building.
Issue #3: Siege Cannon range in the Bast marine spawn and Hera's "2-hive siege" problem. 1100 was the range of the siege just before 1.0 was released, and the 1250 was not heavily tested before public release. Reducing the range to a well-tested and balanced amount will fix this problem.
Those are actual balance changes. The LMG ammo change and welder damage changes are negligible. The welder is NOT meant to be a combat weapon. It's not even meant to be used to kill buildings. It's made to REPAIR buildings and WELD weldables. That's it. Damage is incidental to its true function.
Now then... Let's look at the pro-marine changes. Namely, the reduction of the Fade's splash damage from 200 to 165. To echo your analysis of the other changes, that's a 17.5% decrease... which is actually a fair amount. That damage becomes even less the farther you are from the site of impact. Additionally, a decrease in splash damage also decreases the RANGE of the splash itself. This is actually a fairly potent balance change, and I think more extensive play will show if it is or is not sufficient. If it's not, I imagine it will drop more.
As for the 2 hives/3 hives controversy... yes, marines ought to lose if the aliens get 3 hives. They can come back, but it's unlikely. You don't expect aliens to win if the marines have taken 2 hive locations and are attacking skulks and lerks with HA/HMG/GL, do you? Exactly.
The fact that you had to tell use you were joking disturbs me.....
Oh and can someone tell me what this means?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To |SemperFi|: <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This doesnt help midgame when the aliens are way too overpowered, but it is a fix...even if it doesnt feel like one.
Silver Fox, I have taken down about 3 Onos with the LMG/Pistol combo. Its a rare sight, but OMG is it entertaining to see the players replies. Anyway, I'm not saying we should have some equivelent giant mech. But it makes sense for a army like this to have some kind of heavy explosives. The game doesn't have a single grenade in it, nor any kind of missle launcher. The biggest boom we can make is with mines, and thos only work as a 1st line of defense or a warning system. I think it would help to have some kind of projectile weapon that explodes on contact.
PLEASE, don't disappoint me, devs. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
[edit] And I DON'T mean new weapons (not necessarily, anyways). Just changes that force a shift in gameplay somehow or another. I leave it up to Flayra and the devs.
Step#1: Let your commander drop a <i>Grenade</i> Launcher.
Step#2: Search an Onos.
Step#3: Aim in its general direction.
Step#4: Watch the <i>grenades</i> rip it apart.
;D
The fact that you had to tell use you were joking disturbs me.....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm so proud.
And when I said grenades, I meant actual grenades. As in ones that you pull the pin out of and throw. It'd be a tad easier to kill an Onos if you could pull the pin and wait. Anyone here ever played America's Army? You can pull the pin out and arm it in your hand by right clicking...it allows you the option of timing your throws.
Firstly I'd LOVE to see the gloom mech in but at an absolutly REDICULAS cost, it could be used in a similar manner to the way the ONOS is often used a sort of:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We've beaten you, we know we've beaten you but just so you REALLY REALLY KNOW HOW MUCH YOU SUCK.
We're going to all stay skulk till we have 3 hives and THEN we're going to come in with 7 onos<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Make the research cost say 500 res minimum. C'mon It'd be comical <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Secondly @ evoL:ving:eviL : NS isn't really going many places that haven't been gone befor, FPS with a commander? Tribes.
Aliens vs Marines with buildings? Gloom.
What it IS doing is being absolutly painfully kickarse. And just generally BETTER than all the games that have gone befor <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
All hail the mighty Flyra!
Destroyer of worlds!!
Shamer of devs who get payed to pump out manure like games!!!
Un-Abashed stealer of other peoples good ideas!!!!!
Flyra
Flyra
FLYRA
FLYRA!
<b>FLYRA!!</b>
Let us find the un-belivers and vanquish them!!!!!!!!!!
Rofl
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost
Marines' midgame < Kharaa midgame
Marines' lategame < Kharaa lategame
The first two need to be =, and there lies the problem.
These "nerfs" are to tone down the marine early game and give a slight toning down to kharaa midgame.
Chaosdragon is 100% right about aliens winning. An organized marine team will SLAUGHTER an equally organized kharaa team (assuming equal skill of course). If you don't believe it, you haven't seen organized marines yet <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, but the thing is lowering HP, and raising costs does sort of balace the FIRST part of the game
but then the second and LAST part are put HEAVILY into the alien's favor...
Many games i've played, we've tried to rebuild the base near the end of the game.. when we have physically 0 res nodes left, but we still get some res...
the CC takes enough res.. then the 20 needed for ONE infantry portal.. that's a LOT and makes making a second base all TOO difficult
the phase gate's HP lowering makes it easier for skulks to take one down.. but when fades come, it's all TOO easy to take down.
(not to mention if you use it, you'll die once the fade swipes you)
i played on 1.03 some more.. and the SIEGE nerfs seemed all too needed..
it's for the better
I was the gorge in ns_nancy, and we had subspace.. i capped 3 or 4 res nodes, and got the hive up.. i built some really really good defense at ENGINE, and had the D chambers, and everything, and built at Subspace.. .. built a really good defense there, too.. then the marines setup a siege (they were at nameless probably 50% of the game).. the siege took down the hive, and we lost fades... it really sucked.. the team didn't really seem to care after that point..
we could have easily made a comeback.. everybody had max'd out res... (even me) but, alas, the server crashed
Destroyer of worlds!!
Shamer of devs who get payed to pump out manure like games!!!
Un-Abashed stealer of other peoples good ideas!!!!!
Flyra
Flyra
FLYRA
FLYRA!
<b>FLYRA!!</b>
Let us find the un-belivers and vanquish them!!!!!!!!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What he said. But your forgot that he is Uber L337.
Mechs...brilliant.
That's what Silver, Coil, and the rest were trying to tell you - yes, a single GL marine will get gibbed, but let two HMG marines cover that guy, and the Onos is charred meat.
And yes, grenades explode on impact.
[edit]By the way, the mans name is 'Flayra'. Thanks.[/edit]
All hail the mighty Flyra!
Destroyer of worlds!!
Shamer of devs who get payed to pump out manure like games!!!
Un-Abashed stealer of other peoples good ideas!!!!!
Flyra
Flyra
FLYRA
FLYRA!
<b>FLYRA!!</b>
Let us find the un-belivers and vanquish them!!!!!!!!!!
Rofl
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
BlueGhost<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
*gets torch*
Form a good Ol' fashioned mob and burn the unbelievers!!!
Yes, this is from the third page, but I'm replying to it anyway.
If the situation were indeed exactly as you describe it, then yes, that would be pretty unbalanced. But it's not. As I said before in my earlier post in this thread, the aliens must fight and expand to reach the top of their tech tree, whereas there is <b>nothing</b> stopping the marines from researching everything in the tech tree, provided they have enough resources. In other words, to use your example as a reference, yes, the Terrans have no Battlecruisers, but the Protoss can <b>not</b> build a single Carrier unless they manage to hold three crucial locations on the map. All the Terrans have to do is prevent the Protoss from reaching <b>just one</b> of those crucial locations, and not a single Carrier will <b>ever</b> be built. This is why there is no need for an "Onos counter." On the other hand, the Protoss can not prevent the Terrans from getting their higher-level units in any way besides denying them resources. Yes, it's not entirely equal, and arguably "unbalanced", but the differences between the teams is just one of the things that makes NS rock.
And it's "Flayra", not "Flyra", for God's sake. Get it right. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hmm never tried but what would an Onos do when he enters a wallway full of mines ?
I rarely see commander dropping mines, but boy when they drop it it really helps !