<!--QuoteBegin--^Requiem^+Jan 6 2003, 06:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (^Requiem^ @ Jan 6 2003, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Grenades are currently too powerful for the ease of teching to them. Make them more expensive/longer to tech up to and it will be better. As it stands right now aliens have almost no chance whatsoever of winning a game in a 2 hive situation where marines have the 3rd hive and GLs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know where the heck you're all coming from, but I just played 4 rounds of 1.04 NS with changing teams each game (I played marine all 4 games) and the marines were OWNED BADLY - ALL 4 games. Worse than in 1.03. It simply takes too long for marines to reach 2 hives now. And the grenade launcher was only used in defending the one hive we still held - we did not have the res to give out HA or multuple gren launchers.
The Gren launcher is fine, everything else is still.... off....
and if i ever play on GWB servers.. i have 300 ping cuz i play al the way from Hong koNG <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> haha
well nwyayz.. maybe ur CO sucked???
why is it harder to get two hives now?? increased phase gate cost?? thats wut im guessing... well if he made a TF u lost already bascially <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I lot of good posts and a lot of ignorant posts I'm reading....
Okay, so maybe fades need to adapt and learn to attack/sacrifice themselves for the hive...
Lets say a fade does kill the gl spammer who's in his turret farm..
Fade = 48 res, ha+gl= 50+, both die as grenades blow them both up, another marine comes along and picks up the gl....seems the fades wasted his life as he only did 25 res worth of damage. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Time for fades to use celerity to blink claw and run, sounds good for killing gl's, going to test that.
Oh, now grenades kill lerks/gorge in a single explosion, bye bye teamwork for kharaa as ONE grenadier kills them all but the fade.
<!--QuoteBegin--+Hozart++Jan 6 2003, 09:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (+Hozart+ @ Jan 6 2003, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I lot of good posts and a lot of ignorant posts I'm reading....
Okay, so maybe fades need to adapt and learn to attack/sacrifice themselves for the hive...
Lets say a fade does kill the gl spammer who's in his turret farm..
Fade = 48 res, ha+gl= 50+, both die as grenades blow them both up, another marine comes along and picks up the gl....seems the fades wasted his life as he only did 25 res worth of damage. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Time for fades to use celerity to blink claw and run, sounds good for killing gl's, going to test that.
Oh, now grenades kill lerks/gorge in a single explosion, bye bye teamwork for kharaa as ONE grenadier kills them all but the fade.
Well, adapt or die...gotta use a new plan now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> agree yeah everyone says how its equal... if a lmg marine picks up the GL or even a HA person... u only lose 25 resources...
yes.. and well 90 damage si little... but if it can max out 200 dmg now.. don't u guys think we should find a mdidle point for the dmg?
i like both races and well.... and uranium.... i hope ur not calling me a n00b.. cuz why start a flame... and no.. i dont spam and camp as a fade thankyou very much.... even tho yes i do go carapace and adrenaline.. u can ask most ppl that play wif me... im a melee fade while i get covered by acid rockets from my other teammate... thankyou.. and dun flame if u dunno.. thx
Man, I wish people could learn to write constructive posts instead of newb sounding ones. Some people sound intelligent, while others sound like little children who didn't get enough cake.
My opinion on the GL is that the 1.3 version didn't quite cut it as even Skulks could run through a blast and hit the marine. Fades simply shrugged off the blows and kept Acid spamming.
1.4? It might be overpowered but that's just going to cause a lot more "In your face" action as Fades now must ENTER the base instead of bombarding it from long range. (Like with the 1.3 Acid Rocket.) I personally would like to see more Fades actually Blink instead of foot slogging along. (Granted, Blink still has its problems, but forcing the Fades to do that instead of spam and dodge would be a nice change.)
Fixes? Make the GL a little more expensive and here's a unique idea, increase the reload time. Make it so it is ungodly long to reload a clip of grenades. POOF! GL spamming is a thing of the past as it will require MORE GLs to cover the reload pauses, and if it's a little more expensive, more resources to produce those masses. It will also require an escort and if the GL user decides to take out that "Close Range" skulk, problems will occur for his team. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Kitsune+Jan 7 2003, 12:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kitsune @ Jan 7 2003, 12:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The aliens were too complacent about having two hives; teamwork would disintegrate into batches of roving Fades with the occasional umbraing Lerk, and they'd expect to win the game. Well, now they get to stay on their toes, 'cause it ain't over 'till it's over. Hopefully that will shake them out of their overconfidence.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True, so true. We lost last night just because of that. We super-skulked team work, but once it was fade time, teamwork almost disintegrated. Of course, we were no match for concerted HA marines who stuck together and welded each other up. Sigh. And that was patch 1.03. Still, They could have just gone with letting nades upgrade instead of BOTH nade upgrading damage AND higher base damage in the first place.
Also tehre is one problem with nade: it only FF hurts the lobber himself right? So if a fade goes close combat he can just lob nades as he sees fit, the other guys wont get hurt one bit and fade is dead ASAP.
<!--QuoteBegin--uranium - 235+Jan 7 2003, 02:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Jan 7 2003, 02:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like this: There's a solution to fade spam 'n camp and he wants it taken out. n00b.
Oh and the old GL did a paltry 90 damage, so yes, a skulk with carapace could live through a direct hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lemme get this straight. .. 90? Not 180? 180 vs buildings, half vs aliens yes?
So the new 200 nade does 100 to aliens. Triple upgraded it does 130. That's still mighty hard. But not as hard as I thought.
Fades do, what, 70 per shot? or is it 60? Hmm. Anyone know how larg nade blast radius is?
Aaronvroom vroom der party startahJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7020Members
If you are anywhere near an armory, GL == Never Ending Grenade Spammage of Lameness.
In a game that promotes strategy so much, being able to just sit and *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* <armory reload> *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* is mega-lame.
YES GLs are expensive, but seeing as you can basically fire 1 grenade per second you basically get an impenetrable wall that no aliens can get through. I think the damage needs to be decreased somewhat from the current value in the latest 1.04. Or maybe range from detonation needs to be taken into account. The explosion being able to hit through walls is really lame, but probably not something that can be fixed (well), I think this is a limitation of the half life engine.
Bile bombs going through walls and stuff on the other hand is tres lame. I don't know if this worked Pre-1.04, but I was on a GWB 1.04b server and fades where just bile bombing THROUGH a door. I don't mean that the bile bomb explosion exploded outside and hurt stuff inside. I mean that the bile bomb FLEW THROUGH THE DOOR and landed on the other side. My hunch is that this is a server-side optimization so that the collision detection does not have to be performed on bile bombs (like it is on GLs).
The only thing I can think of to compensate for the GL, is, instead of a clip, just manually reload like the M79 launcher. Or maybe add some distance algorithm so that GL is not effective at close ranges (like real grenade launcher grenades have to go through a certain number of spins and trajectory before they will arm themselves).
Frankly, I liked the 1.03 launcher...what was wrong with it?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fades do, what, 70 per shot? or is it 60? Hmm. Anyone know how larg nade blast radius is?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
200 units, I think.
Note how we had a lot of '1.04 nerfs marine' topics last week, wheras today, the Fades are whining. Honestly, nothing of this has very much meaning until people actually try new tactics. Sitting around and telling us the game is broken because the almost-exploit you used as main strategy up to now can be countered isn't even amusing.
I've actually started seeing ppl that use grenade launcher realize it goes through walls and start spamming grenades agaist walls now instead of hall ways. As a fade you don't see the explosion, and as a skulk/lerk/gorge, your dead so it doesn't matter.
About blinking: I can understand why people don't like it at all in publics. I personally try to use it very much (I play 1.03 and have used it for few weeks now) so I could master it, but I've noticed it's useless in most maps, because the ceiling is too close. There's nothing more annoying than trying to blink in a long corridor and then having to switch to claws right away, because it won't work, while trying to dodge bullets by bunnyhopping. Not to mention that you can very easily get stuck (happens to me in about 1/10 blinks, which is a lot) and there isn't usually a gorge around that can build movement next to you. It's even worse when blinking down (ladders etc.). Usually you just have to suicide or be shot by some laughing LMGer calling you a noob. When I succesfully blink (its bad enough I have to say "succesful" cause there are so many unsuccesful ones), I lose situation awareness totally and have to look for my target again (he hopefully has to do the same!). Even a tiny crate or bump can "kill" long range blinking making it even more confusing. Blinking up elevators or ladders is a total pain in the arse for me: 4/5 I fall down and lose about 50hp or more which ain't cool... Celerity is cool, but I don't know if theres really any point in using celerity to get close to my targets since blinking is supposed to do the same! Extra speed helps, but I still run out of energy too easily and am forced to retreat.
If blinking worked in corridors and you wouldn't get stuck, I'd see no problem why it couldn't be a super useful combat weapon, but as thing are now, I seriously doubt blinking will become popular in publics. I've also heard there are no adjustments to blinking at 1.04, so things don't look too bright.
Okay, first off, I didn't play 1.04b yet and I stopped reading this thread somewhere on page 4 because it was basicly growing faster than I could read anyway and most of the time repeating itself. I have played NS since 1.0, heck I even played the NSTR, if you can call that playing. When 1.0 came out and there were marines with all their recourses and turret fortresses, wielding HMG and GL all the time, I found the game to be fun and balanced fairly well, even with the bugs. When they changed stuff in 1.01 I found it to be balanced and fun as well. Same with 1.02 and 1.03. Maybe its just me, but it doesn't matter what they change, there's always a way to play. As many people have stated before me, there's always a counter tactic. Just do as the Borg do and adapt. I'll just say, change whatever you want, the game is fine anyway, I'll have fun. And now I will check those beta servers to see for myself how unfair that GL now is. At least I won't have to deal with sieges blwoing my hive up from some place I can't even find in the time it takes to rip the hive apart. Problem shifted.
After reading all these delightful, insightful, well thought posts I can't wait to try 1.04!
Yes, there IS sarcasm dripping off that sentence!
Personally, before NS came out I was really looking forward to playing as a fade. Their entire image appealed to me.
Now, in 1.03, fades are boring me. I find myself playing lerks more nowadays. It's just too easy as a fade. Squads of marines fall to rocket spam salvo, any survivors get blinked and swiped. 5 man squads dead in 10 seconds is silly, even if they are LA/LMG. I'd be like "HA? You mean i've gotta actually aim now ??"
So now, from reading these posts, i'm looking forward to a challenge as a fade.
It seems as if many people have grown accumstomed to what I say above, but now something <b>dares</b> to make them work, out comes the knee-jerk response and they cry out for it to be nerfed. I might be wrong, but i've seen it too many times on these forums in the short life span of NS (only 2 and a bit months remember ?).
So, blinking up and swiping doesn't work ? Spamming acid from afar doesnt work ? Try something else then. I'm gonna really enjoy doing just that, and love every damn minute of thinking on my feet as I keep those intruding GL marines from my damn hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regarding explosions through walls, go play CS or HLDM. Or anything else with explosions. Do those go through walls ? I know in CS and HLDM they do.
So it might not be a NS <b>bug</b>, but a quality of the HL engine that Flayra will have to code around. As well as trying to get a flamethrower working. And improving blink. And commander mode. And other little things like version 1.1 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So I didn't read all the six pages but I still gotta say this. Advanced hive sight shows those greandes better, so stop whining and make that sens chamber second to counter the grenades better <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
I think what we are seeing is the effect of BOTH double the grenade damage AND allowing weapons upgrades to affect it.
Previously, a direct hit by a grenade did 100 pts of damage, no matter what. Now, a lvl 3 upgraded grenade does 290 pts of damage, just about three times as much.
Incidentially, getting in close and personal with the GL guy doesn't help much ... since 1.03, friendly fire damage does only 1/3 damage, and getting hoist on your own petard does count as a friendly act (ie, instead of taking 290 pts of damage, you take 96 - meaning that it takes two full clips of nades to suicide in a HA suit).
So, to kill any fade trying to blink in close, just spam a few nades at your feet and watch the fade die to 900 pts of damage while you shroug off the 300 pts (ok, so it does take off half your HA armor - but nothing that two seconds of welding won't take care of).
Grenades did 100 ? Since when ? In 1.00 it was 200. It got dropped to 180 in 1.01. Blast damage got bugged in 1.02 and was fixed in 1.03. It's proposed to go back up to 200 with 1.04. Am I missing something ?
And shouldn't level 3 grenade be 260, not 290 ?
<b>There is some confusion here:</b> there has been a change in terminology. I used to say that the grenade launcher did 200 damage, which was halved vs. players. Now I say it does 100, but doubled vs. buildings. Sorry for the confusion.
Gotta love all the **** marines that are STILL SCARED of fades that keep saying how their uber gods lol... get over it boys
Using the Fade requires 5 times more skill than boring HA/HMG spraying does, fades die fast in reality, though you wouldn't know that, you obviously spend all your time running away from them.
Quite pathetic how all the marine noobs come on here going OMFG grenades should be uber powerful when most of them haven't even played on a 1.04 server.
The fact is 3 marines with HA and GL's are unstoppable.
Also I love the way all the marines players come on saying "all u gotta do is blink away" blablahblah what a load of rubbish. Blinking is hard and works very rarely the way you want it too in a combat situation.
Gee I cant wait to be wall spammed on pubs as soon as 1.04 goes global...
I really do hope that the dmg thru wall thing is a bug... Im sure it is though, the ns team arent stupid.
IMHO, the dmg boost for the GL is logical cuz of the changes on the siege turrets. they have smaller range and they shoot only on sighted targets. it looks like the new GL is the replacement for the siege dominence on the battlefield. GLs cost a bit more (not including the TF) but it's much easier to lose them. sieges often stey to the (bitter) end. but 1 skulk can make a marine lose his GL, and the 33 res pts it costed to buy it. Altough I think 200 dmg is a bit too high (140-170 would be enough to give the kharaa some chance to retaliate), the boost itself is reasonable.
I was an alien on ns_bast. As you know, the marines have that large vent in their sapwn that leads to a res point right outside the engine room hive. They were lobbing grenades in there, and i died after coming up the lift from refinery/feedwater area- a wall and a good distance bettween me and the opening to the vent, and i died. It was almost like a seige that hunted kharra, get in its range and your dead.
<!--QuoteBegin--+Hozart++Jan 6 2003, 09:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (+Hozart @ +Jan 6 2003, 09:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, now grenades kill lerks/gorge in a single explosion, bye bye teamwork for kharaa as ONE grenadier kills them all but the fade.
Well, adapt or die...gotta use a new plan now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well while one grenadier may kill both, the aliens are <b><i><u>NOT</u></i></b> supposed to primarilly be a teamworking team!
Before this, even a squad of 4 marines will have trouble taking out, if they can at all, a group of 2 fades, gorge and lerk.
And just to set the record straight the GL did 90 damage vs non-buildings in 1.03.
And here's another note about it, though different, so it's a new post.
<span style='color:blue'>I find it funny that the marines have, since 1.01, been forced to live with loosing most games to Fade rushes. Sure you may get a post or two about Fades, but does anyone else find it amusing that </span><span style='color:green'>he's complaining about <b>ONE FADE</b> dying every <b>6 minutes</b>? And it's OUTRAGE! There are people here that are absolutely <i>PISED</i> about this! As far as I'm concerned <b><i><u>"What goes around, comes around. Payback is a btch</u></i></b>
And don't compare anything to 'marines can pick up the GL once it's dropped'. Aliens can just use the resource 'exploit', and GLs have such a short timeout, if you let the marine grab a GL, which will have at MOST 4 grenades, then you deserve to die.</span>
I love how everyone complains about the grenade spamming, but in reality - when marines are pushed back to the defensive, they rarely have the resources to get more than 1 grenade launcher. And if marines happen to get the resources and abilities to have multiple grenade launchers, then maybe they deserve it.... We don't complain when there's 3 Onos running around the base.
a lot of **** has been said by both sides, pointless theory and whining about the other sides supposed advantage, I still can't get over how much people whine about the fades.
The problems I can forsee with the GL is not the offensive work...I will be glad if this isn't the case...but read on.
Yes, bile bombs and acid rockets damaged through walls...this isn't a NS bug, this is half life through all the mods. In DoD and CS I'd curse as I was headshotted through a wall by a nade despite being far enough away to do nothing more than get little more than an ear ringing. But these weapons are still line of sight. Projectile line of sight, yes, but line of sight none the less. Grenades bounce round corners and have quite a lot of range when you consider that. ALL naders will not fire directly at an alien, but restrict a course of passage by knocking nades around a corner.
The issues come when two things happen.... The aliens take the third hive and assault the main base...or the marines move their base to the third hive and the 2 hive aliens assault that base.
A GLer away from his spawn will not really do much in the way of damage, there are the back routes, and despite the idiotic suggestions of some, silence and skulking will not taking him out easily. Just because the skulk comes from behind does not mean the GLer will realise this and never turn his view constantly to check for danger. None the less, sooner rather than later he will fall and if he was relied on to defend something remote...the reliance is a foolish one.
However in my two initial scenario's I can only see one thing happening, as it happens almost with current nades...and that is a stalemate. Currently nades give enough damage that rushing LMGers will kill quite alot. Eventually though the fades will have battered down enough defences to be able to move far enough into a base (most of which only have two real entrances) to blink about and take out that little stronghold. It takes a while...but aliens generally win out.
Now...I can see that the nades are doing the work so well the LMGers don't need to rush, they can camp back and simply take pot shots with their pistols to take out whatever comes by. When a commander has his back against the wall in 1.04, and has to defend his base...is it me or is every commander going to get one or two GL's and order them to "cover" the entrances...thus creating a curtain of fire.
This isn't going to allow skulks to get in either through the damage going through the walls being so wide and powerful, or the fact that the way they "get in behind. Fades won't be able to do more than blink in, kill the Gler, die, and have another marine pick the GL up and restock...Onos may not even be able to get through sufficiently enough that he'll survive two or three marines firing LMG's at him on the other side of the blast.
If the grenader is on the move, he'll be easy to bring down, yes....if he's sitting at your hive blowing it up, then if you are lucky enough to spawn at your second hive, you'll have an ok chance (unless the marines are clued up enough to actually cover his back) at taking him out and saving a hive on its last legs.
But I can't see anything but a stalemate at the end game being the eventual outcome for a lot of games. I hope I'm wrong, and I hope that there is going to be a way that makes itself blatanly visible to show that an area being held staunchly by a couple of GLers and a semi competant handful of marines covering won't be able to dig in so much that they can't actually be dug out.
With the destructive effects being described, I only hope that it doesn't mean that the grenade launcher turns out to be the last ditch weapon that marines save up for when against third level aliens, only to be able to push those aliens back so far that they start losing...reguardless of how good those aliens are...because I can only look at this logically, and if nades are eliminating teams of aliens like lerks and gorges working together with fades, and obliterating several fades with one clip...then I can see naders opening up the door for counterattacks that would be slightly too effective for the positions the marines are in.
As I said, I'm sure that it won't end up like that...but I will say this...I can't begin to think that stalemates won't happen more frequently now...and I already bore of going up against marines that can't do anything but nade area's so aliens can't pass through. I'm sure all of you know how boring it is to go up against marines so entrentched in the base that it is impossible to get beyond their carpet bombing of the lift shaft and vent.... rarely anything gets through and if it does it's wiped out by standard marines quickly.
My main love of this game is in the aspects of fun I can derive from it, win or lose. Win or lose, however, I can't find grenades and 90% of the way they are used as fun to play with/against...and that in 1.04 will be the over-riding feature of wether I like the weapon or not. If it's done nothing but simply made it harder for aliens to get through then I can tell you now that the weapon will be less fun to play with or against than it already is right now.
Could someone tell me how to reproduce the "grenades through walls" syndrome? I have my own draw damage on, and I've tried lots of scenarios and I can't get it to occur.
If someone could post a situation where grenades damage through walls, I'll be happy to fix it before releasing v1.04 (posting a picture of a map location would be very helpful).
I for one am glad for the new all-powerful grenade launchers. It gives the marines something that can drive fade/lerk/gorge groups off, and makes the fades fear you, something that they have been missing (it's quiet amusing to see several fades scamper away from a gren barrage).
Besides, 4 fades in six minutes? My god, they're dropping like flies!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'd assume the best place is take Bast, the marine base...if you have the elevator/lift up at the top...
if you nade onto the top of the elevator while a skulk is attatched to the below of it, waiting to attack those coming down a ladder, the skulk should take damage if not die.
Similarly, a skulk waiting in the sloping vent that runs along side the marine base, the one that can be welded from outside engine room and runs along side the chamber where the CC initially spawns, will be killed or damaged when nades are launced next to or around the CC.
This is stuff that has happened in the past while I've played on publics with the old grenades on 1.03, can't say wether it's the same for 1.04. If I was t home and not on a laptop I'd go and get some screengrabs and such of the map with lots of arrows <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hopefully my descriptions give you a couple of places to test at least :/ As I said, as far as I thought it was the same annoyance that is inherited in CS and DoD's grenades because of the HL engine (at least I thought)
Comments
I don't know where the heck you're all coming from, but I just played 4 rounds of 1.04 NS with changing teams each game (I played marine all 4 games) and the marines were OWNED BADLY - ALL 4 games. Worse than in 1.03. It simply takes too long for marines to reach 2 hives now. And the grenade launcher was only used in defending the one hive we still held - we did not have the res to give out HA or multuple gren launchers.
The Gren launcher is fine, everything else is still.... off....
-Joe
not sure if u remembre me.. im
-k3] | Bl@ZeR
and if i ever play on GWB servers.. i have 300 ping cuz i play al the way from Hong koNG <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> haha
well nwyayz.. maybe ur CO sucked???
why is it harder to get two hives now?? increased phase gate cost?? thats wut im guessing... well if he made a TF u lost already bascially <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh and the old GL did a paltry 90 damage, so yes, a skulk with carapace could live through a direct hit.
Okay, so maybe fades need to adapt and learn to attack/sacrifice themselves for the hive...
Lets say a fade does kill the gl spammer who's in his turret farm..
Fade = 48 res, ha+gl= 50+, both die as grenades blow them both up, another marine comes along and picks up the gl....seems the fades wasted his life as he only did 25 res worth of damage. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Time for fades to use celerity to blink claw and run, sounds good for killing gl's, going to test that.
Oh, now grenades kill lerks/gorge in a single explosion, bye bye teamwork for kharaa as ONE grenadier kills them all but the fade.
Well, adapt or die...gotta use a new plan now.
Okay, so maybe fades need to adapt and learn to attack/sacrifice themselves for the hive...
Lets say a fade does kill the gl spammer who's in his turret farm..
Fade = 48 res, ha+gl= 50+, both die as grenades blow them both up, another marine comes along and picks up the gl....seems the fades wasted his life as he only did 25 res worth of damage. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Time for fades to use celerity to blink claw and run, sounds good for killing gl's, going to test that.
Oh, now grenades kill lerks/gorge in a single explosion, bye bye teamwork for kharaa as ONE grenadier kills them all but the fade.
Well, adapt or die...gotta use a new plan now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
agree yeah everyone says how its equal... if a lmg marine picks up the GL or even a HA person... u only lose 25 resources...
yes.. and well 90 damage si little... but if it can max out 200 dmg now.. don't u guys think we should find a mdidle point for the dmg?
i like both races and well.... and uranium.... i hope ur not calling me a n00b.. cuz why start a flame... and no.. i dont spam and camp as a fade thankyou very much.... even tho yes i do go carapace and adrenaline.. u can ask most ppl that play wif me... im a melee fade while i get covered by acid rockets from my other teammate... thankyou.. and dun flame if u dunno.. thx
My opinion on the GL is that the 1.3 version didn't quite cut it as even Skulks could run through a blast and hit the marine. Fades simply shrugged off the blows and kept Acid spamming.
1.4? It might be overpowered but that's just going to cause a lot more "In your face" action as Fades now must ENTER the base instead of bombarding it from long range. (Like with the 1.3 Acid Rocket.) I personally would like to see more Fades actually Blink instead of foot slogging along. (Granted, Blink still has its problems, but forcing the Fades to do that instead of spam and dodge would be a nice change.)
Fixes? Make the GL a little more expensive and here's a unique idea, increase the reload time. Make it so it is ungodly long to reload a clip of grenades. POOF! GL spamming is a thing of the past as it will require MORE GLs to cover the reload pauses, and if it's a little more expensive, more resources to produce those masses. It will also require an escort and if the GL user decides to take out that "Close Range" skulk, problems will occur for his team. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
True, so true. We lost last night just because of that. We super-skulked team work, but once it was fade time, teamwork almost disintegrated. Of course, we were no match for concerted HA marines who stuck together and welded each other up. Sigh. And that was patch 1.03. Still, They could have just gone with letting nades upgrade instead of BOTH nade upgrading damage AND higher base damage in the first place.
Also tehre is one problem with nade: it only FF hurts the lobber himself right? So if a fade goes close combat he can just lob nades as he sees fit, the other guys wont get hurt one bit and fade is dead ASAP.
Oh and the old GL did a paltry 90 damage, so yes, a skulk with carapace could live through a direct hit.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lemme get this straight. .. 90? Not 180? 180 vs buildings, half vs aliens yes?
So the new 200 nade does 100 to aliens. Triple upgraded it does 130. That's still mighty hard. But not as hard as I thought.
Fades do, what, 70 per shot? or is it 60? Hmm. Anyone know how larg nade blast radius is?
In a game that promotes strategy so much, being able to just sit and *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* <armory reload> *plonk* *plonk* *plonk* is mega-lame.
YES GLs are expensive, but seeing as you can basically fire 1 grenade per second you basically get an impenetrable wall that no aliens can get through. I think the damage needs to be decreased somewhat from the current value in the latest 1.04. Or maybe range from detonation needs to be taken into account. The explosion being able to hit through walls is really lame, but probably not something that can be fixed (well), I think this is a limitation of the half life engine.
Bile bombs going through walls and stuff on the other hand is tres lame. I don't know if this worked Pre-1.04, but I was on a GWB 1.04b server and fades where just bile bombing THROUGH a door. I don't mean that the bile bomb explosion exploded outside and hurt stuff inside. I mean that the bile bomb FLEW THROUGH THE DOOR and landed on the other side. My hunch is that this is a server-side optimization so that the collision detection does not have to be performed on bile bombs (like it is on GLs).
Ok, enough whining by me, sorry <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only thing I can think of to compensate for the GL, is, instead of a clip, just manually reload like the M79 launcher. Or maybe add some distance algorithm so that GL is not effective at close ranges (like real grenade launcher grenades have to go through a certain number of spins and trajectory before they will arm themselves).
Frankly, I liked the 1.03 launcher...what was wrong with it?
meh
200 units, I think.
Note how we had a lot of '1.04 nerfs marine' topics last week, wheras today, the Fades are whining. Honestly, nothing of this has very much meaning until people actually try new tactics. Sitting around and telling us the game is broken because the almost-exploit you used as main strategy up to now can be countered isn't even amusing.
If blinking worked in corridors and you wouldn't get stuck, I'd see no problem why it couldn't be a super useful combat weapon, but as thing are now, I seriously doubt blinking will become popular in publics. I've also heard there are no adjustments to blinking at 1.04, so things don't look too bright.
I have played NS since 1.0, heck I even played the NSTR, if you can call that playing.
When 1.0 came out and there were marines with all their recourses and turret fortresses, wielding HMG and GL all the time, I found the game to be fun and balanced fairly well, even with the bugs.
When they changed stuff in 1.01 I found it to be balanced and fun as well. Same with 1.02 and 1.03. Maybe its just me, but it doesn't matter what they change, there's always a way to play. As many people have stated before me, there's always a counter tactic. Just do as the Borg do and adapt.
I'll just say, change whatever you want, the game is fine anyway, I'll have fun. And now I will check those beta servers to see for myself how unfair that GL now is. At least I won't have to deal with sieges blwoing my hive up from some place I can't even find in the time it takes to rip the hive apart. Problem shifted.
Yes, there IS sarcasm dripping off that sentence!
Personally, before NS came out I was really looking forward to playing as a fade. Their entire image appealed to me.
Now, in 1.03, fades are boring me. I find myself playing lerks more nowadays. It's just too easy as a fade. Squads of marines fall to rocket spam salvo, any survivors get blinked and swiped. 5 man squads dead in 10 seconds is silly, even if they are LA/LMG. I'd be like "HA? You mean i've gotta actually aim now ??"
So now, from reading these posts, i'm looking forward to a challenge as a fade.
It seems as if many people have grown accumstomed to what I say above, but now something <b>dares</b> to make them work, out comes the knee-jerk response and they cry out for it to be nerfed. I might be wrong, but i've seen it too many times on these forums in the short life span of NS (only 2 and a bit months remember ?).
So, blinking up and swiping doesn't work ? Spamming acid from afar doesnt work ? Try something else then. I'm gonna really enjoy doing just that, and love every damn minute of thinking on my feet as I keep those intruding GL marines from my damn hive <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regarding explosions through walls, go play CS or HLDM. Or anything else with explosions. Do those go through walls ? I know in CS and HLDM they do.
So it might not be a NS <b>bug</b>, but a quality of the HL engine that Flayra will have to code around. As well as trying to get a flamethrower working. And improving blink. And commander mode. And other little things like version 1.1 <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Previously, a direct hit by a grenade did 100 pts of damage, no matter what. Now, a lvl 3 upgraded grenade does 290 pts of damage, just about three times as much.
Incidentially, getting in close and personal with the GL guy doesn't help much ... since 1.03, friendly fire damage does only 1/3 damage, and getting hoist on your own petard does count as a friendly act (ie, instead of taking 290 pts of damage, you take 96 - meaning that it takes two full clips of nades to suicide in a HA suit).
So, to kill any fade trying to blink in close, just spam a few nades at your feet and watch the fade die to 900 pts of damage while you shroug off the 300 pts (ok, so it does take off half your HA armor - but nothing that two seconds of welding won't take care of).
And shouldn't level 3 grenade be 260, not 290 ?
<b>There is some confusion here:</b> there has been a change in terminology. I used to say that the grenade launcher did 200 damage, which was halved vs. players. Now I say it does 100, but doubled vs. buildings. Sorry for the confusion.
Using the Fade requires 5 times more skill than boring HA/HMG spraying does, fades die fast in reality, though you wouldn't know that, you obviously spend all your time running away from them.
Quite pathetic how all the marine noobs come on here going OMFG grenades should be uber powerful when most of them haven't even played on a 1.04 server.
The fact is 3 marines with HA and GL's are unstoppable.
Also I love the way all the marines players come on saying "all u gotta do is blink away" blablahblah what a load of rubbish. Blinking is hard and works very rarely the way you want it too in a combat situation.
Gee I cant wait to be wall spammed on pubs as soon as 1.04 goes global...
I really do hope that the dmg thru wall thing is a bug... Im sure it is though, the ns team arent stupid.
Oh joy
Altough I think 200 dmg is a bit too high (140-170 would be enough to give the kharaa some chance to retaliate), the boost itself is reasonable.
I was an alien on ns_bast. As you know, the marines have that large vent in their sapwn that leads to a res point right outside the engine room hive. They were lobbing grenades in there, and i died after coming up the lift from refinery/feedwater area- a wall and a good distance bettween me and the opening to the vent, and i died. It was almost like a seige that hunted kharra, get in its range and your dead.
Well, adapt or die...gotta use a new plan now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well while one grenadier may kill both, the aliens are <b><i><u>NOT</u></i></b> supposed to primarilly be a teamworking team!
Before this, even a squad of 4 marines will have trouble taking out, if they can at all, a group of 2 fades, gorge and lerk.
And just to set the record straight the GL did 90 damage vs non-buildings in 1.03.
<b> Someday I'll learn to be respectful. </b>
<span style='color:blue'>I find it funny that the marines have, since 1.01, been forced to live with loosing most games to Fade rushes. Sure you may get a post or two about Fades, but does anyone else find it amusing that </span><span style='color:green'>he's complaining about <b>ONE FADE</b> dying every <b>6 minutes</b>? And it's OUTRAGE! There are people here that are absolutely <i>PISED</i> about this! As far as I'm concerned <b><i><u>"What goes around, comes around. Payback is a btch</u></i></b>
And don't compare anything to 'marines can pick up the GL once it's dropped'. Aliens can just use the resource 'exploit', and GLs have such a short timeout, if you let the marine grab a GL, which will have at MOST 4 grenades, then you deserve to die.</span>
-JKooL
The problems I can forsee with the GL is not the offensive work...I will be glad if this isn't the case...but read on.
Yes, bile bombs and acid rockets damaged through walls...this isn't a NS bug, this is half life through all the mods. In DoD and CS I'd curse as I was headshotted through a wall by a nade despite being far enough away to do nothing more than get little more than an ear ringing. But these weapons are still line of sight. Projectile line of sight, yes, but line of sight none the less. Grenades bounce round corners and have quite a lot of range when you consider that. ALL naders will not fire directly at an alien, but restrict a course of passage by knocking nades around a corner.
The issues come when two things happen.... The aliens take the third hive and assault the main base...or the marines move their base to the third hive and the 2 hive aliens assault that base.
A GLer away from his spawn will not really do much in the way of damage, there are the back routes, and despite the idiotic suggestions of some, silence and skulking will not taking him out easily. Just because the skulk comes from behind does not mean the GLer will realise this and never turn his view constantly to check for danger. None the less, sooner rather than later he will fall and if he was relied on to defend something remote...the reliance is a foolish one.
However in my two initial scenario's I can only see one thing happening, as it happens almost with current nades...and that is a stalemate. Currently nades give enough damage that rushing LMGers will kill quite alot. Eventually though the fades will have battered down enough defences to be able to move far enough into a base (most of which only have two real entrances) to blink about and take out that little stronghold. It takes a while...but aliens generally win out.
Now...I can see that the nades are doing the work so well the LMGers don't need to rush, they can camp back and simply take pot shots with their pistols to take out whatever comes by. When a commander has his back against the wall in 1.04, and has to defend his base...is it me or is every commander going to get one or two GL's and order them to "cover" the entrances...thus creating a curtain of fire.
This isn't going to allow skulks to get in either through the damage going through the walls being so wide and powerful, or the fact that the way they "get in behind. Fades won't be able to do more than blink in, kill the Gler, die, and have another marine pick the GL up and restock...Onos may not even be able to get through sufficiently enough that he'll survive two or three marines firing LMG's at him on the other side of the blast.
If the grenader is on the move, he'll be easy to bring down, yes....if he's sitting at your hive blowing it up, then if you are lucky enough to spawn at your second hive, you'll have an ok chance (unless the marines are clued up enough to actually cover his back) at taking him out and saving a hive on its last legs.
But I can't see anything but a stalemate at the end game being the eventual outcome for a lot of games. I hope I'm wrong, and I hope that there is going to be a way that makes itself blatanly visible to show that an area being held staunchly by a couple of GLers and a semi competant handful of marines covering won't be able to dig in so much that they can't actually be dug out.
With the destructive effects being described, I only hope that it doesn't mean that the grenade launcher turns out to be the last ditch weapon that marines save up for when against third level aliens, only to be able to push those aliens back so far that they start losing...reguardless of how good those aliens are...because I can only look at this logically, and if nades are eliminating teams of aliens like lerks and gorges working together with fades, and obliterating several fades with one clip...then I can see naders opening up the door for counterattacks that would be slightly too effective for the positions the marines are in.
As I said, I'm sure that it won't end up like that...but I will say this...I can't begin to think that stalemates won't happen more frequently now...and I already bore of going up against marines that can't do anything but nade area's so aliens can't pass through. I'm sure all of you know how boring it is to go up against marines so entrentched in the base that it is impossible to get beyond their carpet bombing of the lift shaft and vent.... rarely anything gets through and if it does it's wiped out by standard marines quickly.
My main love of this game is in the aspects of fun I can derive from it, win or lose. Win or lose, however, I can't find grenades and 90% of the way they are used as fun to play with/against...and that in 1.04 will be the over-riding feature of wether I like the weapon or not. If it's done nothing but simply made it harder for aliens to get through then I can tell you now that the weapon will be less fun to play with or against than it already is right now.
-Lee
If someone could post a situation where grenades damage through walls, I'll be happy to fix it before releasing v1.04 (posting a picture of a map location would be very helpful).
Besides, 4 fades in six minutes? My god, they're dropping like flies!!! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
if you nade onto the top of the elevator while a skulk is attatched to the below of it, waiting to attack those coming down a ladder, the skulk should take damage if not die.
Similarly, a skulk waiting in the sloping vent that runs along side the marine base, the one that can be welded from outside engine room and runs along side the chamber where the CC initially spawns, will be killed or damaged when nades are launced next to or around the CC.
This is stuff that has happened in the past while I've played on publics with the old grenades on 1.03, can't say wether it's the same for 1.04. If I was t home and not on a laptop I'd go and get some screengrabs and such of the map with lots of arrows <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hopefully my descriptions give you a couple of places to test at least :/ As I said, as far as I thought it was the same annoyance that is inherited in CS and DoD's grenades because of the HL engine (at least I thought)
-Lee