Dang it, NoImagination said what I was trying to say except better <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe I'm just a crappy Skulk <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> but I need regeneration when I'm skulking around especially early game when def towers are few and far between.
Isn't it cool as heck to run by the marines and kill one or two, hide for 30 seconds or so off in a corner then fly back at them again? Rinse, lather, repeat. Sure with carapace maybe I can take out two or three (if I'm godlike) before I die but with regen I can attack many more times eh?
(I apologize for what you are about to read - it is obscenely long. But in order for me to fully give my opinion of the article, it must be so. Thanks to all of you who actually read the whole thing!)
Well, well, where should I begin?
I suppose I'll start on the points where I agree:
First of all, I do think it's a tad too easy for marines to grab a hive. The problem, I believe, lies in the phase gate. Not that I don't think the phase gate is a valid tactic; it's just too quick and easy to build, and VERY hard to defend against once up. It's the only marine building that is this way; all the others are relatively balanced. For example, if youw ant to build turrets, you have to spend a long time building a turret factory, THEN build a set of turrets, and you genuinely need at least 3 before a turret factory can defend it self. If the marine builders are killed anytime while building the turret factory or the two turrets, the hive outpost is doomed. In the same way, if an extreme commander tries to establish spawns in a hive, he has to build a CC (very long time), THEN spawn portals. And even then, it will take quite a long time for a marine to spawn in the portal, and will leave him quite vulnerable to a group of skulks with the munchies. But a phase gate can be built in just a few seconds, and after that, endless reinforcements will pour in while the aliens are forced to make the long trek from whatever hive they happen to be based in.
Unlike Mr. Shambler, I however believe that the marines should still be able to build in the hive. Marines taking a hive, in fact, is something that is integral to what is Natural Selection. In keeping with the spirit of NS, my suggestion is twofold:
1) Give the hive the ability to notify aliens of marine "trespassers" on possible hive territory. If any marine gets near an empty hive, all skulks will get the blaring message "HUMAN IN HIVE LOCATION!!" and a red blip where the hive shows up on hive sight. That way, as a marine, you KNOW that in getting near a hive, you are putting yourself in deep sh|t (much like when you try to attack a resource tower alone). And hopefully, this'll force marines to take hives in groups, and cut this BS where one player can mosey into a hive and set up a base by himself with no aliens the wiser.
2) Force marines to build a radar before building a phase gate. It doesn't particularly make sense, but you could explain it by saying that the PG functions by using the radar to send signals to other PG's. This would help slow down the process of building a PG in a hive, making it easier for aliens to get there and defend themselves. If you REALLY wanted to mix things up, you could make it so killing the radar would cause the nearby phase gate to cease to function (much like the realationship between turret factories and turrets). That way, as an alien, you could easily cut the marines' easy access to a hive, forcing them to rely on the good ol' map routes to get there. If the marines have made a poorly defended establishment (as they often do in the lame capture-the-2-hive fiascos), a quick strike could bring things back under alien control.
Next, I firmly disagree that the goal of marines should be to capture resource nodes, and not to capture enemy hives. I think that space should be allowed to both strategies, because different possible strategies are what make strategy games fun. I think the problem in NS as of late is how badly resource towers are made to be in 1.03. You can try to capture resources, and that certainly helps you tech up (which is good for the game)...but there are two problems. One - skulks can kill resource nodes WAAAAY too easily. This is because they know that the marines are probably busy and have no idea that the attack has taken place; this is profoundly unlike the marines, who know that attacking a resource node will bring the wrath of the entire alien team down upon them (ever hear this: "NOO DON'T ATTACK THAT! NOW THE ALIENS KNOW WE'RE HERE!"). Two - once aliens get fades, it becomes all too easy for them to quickly sweep the map of any marine resource nodes, simply because of the fades' raw power and ability to destroy all resource nodes and any small defenses around them. This really makes the mid-game less fun for teched-up marines, because they spend most of it in a resource bind, while the aliens swim in all the resources they have.
I think Shambler's idea of having turrets on the resource nodes is a great idea. Because the marines often don't know about a resource node being attacked, and are usually too far away to defend it in time if they do, this'll repel lone skulk pests for them. If the resource node was able to kill a lone skulk, it would make things easier for marines and cause greater teamwork for the aliens. While it might kill 1 skulk, a turret will only repel a team or 2 or 3 - allowing aliens the chance to kill a resource node, and marines the chance to defend it from them. It would really be the exact opposite of how alien resource towers work. While alien resource towers have no defenses, when they are attacked, EVERYONE knows. As most of you know, this requires marines to work in teams to kill resources; why shouldn't aliens have to do the same?
As for his rants on HA's and fade's, I completely disagree with him. Speed and melee is the fade's advantage; slowness and guns are the marines'. So given the fade's ability to soften a marine with missiles, quickly blink in a nd strike, and run away to heal, I would say that the game is DESIGNED so that a fade wins in a straight encounter against a marine. The game is also designed so that a bunch of HMG/welder wielding HA's will win against a lone fade or even a group of fades; requiring that a lerk is on hand to provide umbra (you know, it isn't ONLY useful when attacking buildings), or that the group of fades are near godly with their slash ability (try getting up in a marine's face and slashing him, I'll bet you he won't be trying to weld someone then!).
I do agree shotguns are quite underused, for various reasons. I don't really agree with his fixes, though. It really shouldn't work against umbra, much less be amplified in it. However, I do believe it should be dramatically reduced in cost. Think of it this way: the skulk with level-3 carapace begins to appear about halfway through the "beginning" stages of the game. Marines, on the other hand, are probably still working on resources or setting up a hive base - they dont have the time or money to build an arms lab and get the weapons upgrade to negate that armor. The aliens get a nice coat or armor for a whopping 2 resources a pop. The marines, with nothing to do, usually stand weak and undefended against the aliens' newfound armor until the midgame begins, wherapon the aliens don't care about the carapace anymore and are now playing as fades. Meh. So, I think the shotgun should be reduced in cost to 10 resources - as much as a welder. In exchange, the shotgun would do much less damage against buidings, perhaps even less so than LMG's (preventing an easy exploit for clan rush tactics). This way, the shotgun becomes much more of an anti-personnel weapon, which given the new price tag, should probably appear in greater numbers at just about the time the skulks start getting carapace. Most of the marines will probably still have their LMG's, so the skulks should still have their usual advantage with carapace; but they will now have the new fear of having to evade that skilled marine shotgunner. By the time the midgame rolls around, the shotguns will start being replaced with the more effective, more powerful, and more ranged HMG's.
As for a marine umbra counter, I highly suggest a flamethrower. ****, Flarya, I know you want to have volumetric flames or none at all, but this is really the perfect solution for a marine team in need of a counter against an alien umbra siege. The flamethrower would of course be quite shortranged, and would probably be only effevtive against your smaller Kharaa critters (Fades and Onos's could run through relatively unfazed, requiring a HMG or two to help). Basically, it would be a support weapon that would help against skulks, gorges, and especially lerks. Costing about 20 res, marines could use the flamethrower to spam high-traffic vents, doorways, and corridors and scare off skulks. There would be a nice long reload cycle, and the threat of running out of "ammo," thereby giving skulks their chance against an unskilled spammer. More importantly, the flamethrower could be used against umbra spewing lerks, bypassing the umbra's effect, killing the lerk source, and allowing the marines to fight off the fades. Right now, the power of umbra makes it nigh-impossible for marines to fight off a wel-coordinated alien team (two or even 3 lerks? I shudder the thought).
I don't agree with adding fragmentation grenades into the fray, because I forsee a LOT of grenade spammage issues. Think of how it is now with the grenade launcher, only now everyone has one and can use them throughout the entire game. Nonononono.
Better turret factory and base defenses - meh. I think marines have it fine the way it is.
As for his alien upgrades list, he has apparently forgotten that each tower sort of has three abilities. I personally think my own suggestions were better.
As for his whole 3rd hive theory - no. Nonononononono. Aliens aren't supposed to get third hive, and if they do, game's over. That's it. That's why he sees things as being so "unbalanced" - because everything that IS level 3 hive is a game-ender. Jetpackers being able to counter an Onos - HAH! The jetpackers had the chance to counter the onos by securing one of the unused hives or by killing an existing one; if aliens get Onos, then they should be able to kill jetpackers. Besides, the onos already has it hard enough as is, with all his getting-stuck-in-walls shenanigans. I think the only unbalance in this respect is that marines don't have a similar game-breaker. When marines kill one hive and bring the aliens down to one, the game still seems to drag on FOREVER, though it should only last a few more minutes. This is mainly due to how much of a terror a turret-spamming gorge, a resource-tower-munching group of skulks, and a spike-spamming lerk can be. IMHO, a level 3 armor/weapons marine should be able to tear apart a 1-hive alien team, and quickly. Though I don't know how this can really be achieved without unbalancing the game in other respects.
Hmmm- lerks. They definitely need to be cheaper, given their overall use to the team (especially during the beginning of a game - going lerk is widely considered a waste of resources). I think spike is a cheap way to prolong a dead game, and rarely leads to an alien comeback, so I can agree with nerfing it in exchange for a new ability. THis new ability shouldn't be umbra (this NEEDS to be lerft to the 3rd slot), though, and I don't think it should be parasite either. Sorry, no real suggestions here.
Which brings me to the end to his article. I aplogize again for the longness of this post :/
Comments
Isn't it cool as heck to run by the marines and kill one or two, hide for 30 seconds or so off in a corner then fly back at them again? Rinse, lather, repeat. Sure with carapace maybe I can take out two or three (if I'm godlike) before I die but with regen I can attack many more times eh?
Well, well, where should I begin?
I suppose I'll start on the points where I agree:
First of all, I do think it's a tad too easy for marines to grab a hive. The problem, I believe, lies in the phase gate. Not that I don't think the phase gate is a valid tactic; it's just too quick and easy to build, and VERY hard to defend against once up. It's the only marine building that is this way; all the others are relatively balanced. For example, if youw ant to build turrets, you have to spend a long time building a turret factory, THEN build a set of turrets, and you genuinely need at least 3 before a turret factory can defend it self. If the marine builders are killed anytime while building the turret factory or the two turrets, the hive outpost is doomed. In the same way, if an extreme commander tries to establish spawns in a hive, he has to build a CC (very long time), THEN spawn portals. And even then, it will take quite a long time for a marine to spawn in the portal, and will leave him quite vulnerable to a group of skulks with the munchies. But a phase gate can be built in just a few seconds, and after that, endless reinforcements will pour in while the aliens are forced to make the long trek from whatever hive they happen to be based in.
Unlike Mr. Shambler, I however believe that the marines should still be able to build in the hive. Marines taking a hive, in fact, is something that is integral to what is Natural Selection. In keeping with the spirit of NS, my suggestion is twofold:
1) Give the hive the ability to notify aliens of marine "trespassers" on possible hive territory. If any marine gets near an empty hive, all skulks will get the blaring message "HUMAN IN HIVE LOCATION!!" and a red blip where the hive shows up on hive sight. That way, as a marine, you KNOW that in getting near a hive, you are putting yourself in deep sh|t (much like when you try to attack a resource tower alone). And hopefully, this'll force marines to take hives in groups, and cut this BS where one player can mosey into a hive and set up a base by himself with no aliens the wiser.
2) Force marines to build a radar before building a phase gate. It doesn't particularly make sense, but you could explain it by saying that the PG functions by using the radar to send signals to other PG's. This would help slow down the process of building a PG in a hive, making it easier for aliens to get there and defend themselves. If you REALLY wanted to mix things up, you could make it so killing the radar would cause the nearby phase gate to cease to function (much like the realationship between turret factories and turrets). That way, as an alien, you could easily cut the marines' easy access to a hive, forcing them to rely on the good ol' map routes to get there. If the marines have made a poorly defended establishment (as they often do in the lame capture-the-2-hive fiascos), a quick strike could bring things back under alien control.
Next, I firmly disagree that the goal of marines should be to capture resource nodes, and not to capture enemy hives. I think that space should be allowed to both strategies, because different possible strategies are what make strategy games fun. I think the problem in NS as of late is how badly resource towers are made to be in 1.03. You can try to capture resources, and that certainly helps you tech up (which is good for the game)...but there are two problems. One - skulks can kill resource nodes WAAAAY too easily. This is because they know that the marines are probably busy and have no idea that the attack has taken place; this is profoundly unlike the marines, who know that attacking a resource node will bring the wrath of the entire alien team down upon them (ever hear this: "NOO DON'T ATTACK THAT! NOW THE ALIENS KNOW WE'RE HERE!"). Two - once aliens get fades, it becomes all too easy for them to quickly sweep the map of any marine resource nodes, simply because of the fades' raw power and ability to destroy all resource nodes and any small defenses around them. This really makes the mid-game less fun for teched-up marines, because they spend most of it in a resource bind, while the aliens swim in all the resources they have.
I think Shambler's idea of having turrets on the resource nodes is a great idea. Because the marines often don't know about a resource node being attacked, and are usually too far away to defend it in time if they do, this'll repel lone skulk pests for them. If the resource node was able to kill a lone skulk, it would make things easier for marines and cause greater teamwork for the aliens. While it might kill 1 skulk, a turret will only repel a team or 2 or 3 - allowing aliens the chance to kill a resource node, and marines the chance to defend it from them. It would really be the exact opposite of how alien resource towers work. While alien resource towers have no defenses, when they are attacked, EVERYONE knows. As most of you know, this requires marines to work in teams to kill resources; why shouldn't aliens have to do the same?
As for his rants on HA's and fade's, I completely disagree with him. Speed and melee is the fade's advantage; slowness and guns are the marines'. So given the fade's ability to soften a marine with missiles, quickly blink in a nd strike, and run away to heal, I would say that the game is DESIGNED so that a fade wins in a straight encounter against a marine. The game is also designed so that a bunch of HMG/welder wielding HA's will win against a lone fade or even a group of fades; requiring that a lerk is on hand to provide umbra (you know, it isn't ONLY useful when attacking buildings), or that the group of fades are near godly with their slash ability (try getting up in a marine's face and slashing him, I'll bet you he won't be trying to weld someone then!).
I do agree shotguns are quite underused, for various reasons. I don't really agree with his fixes, though. It really shouldn't work against umbra, much less be amplified in it. However, I do believe it should be dramatically reduced in cost. Think of it this way: the skulk with level-3 carapace begins to appear about halfway through the "beginning" stages of the game. Marines, on the other hand, are probably still working on resources or setting up a hive base - they dont have the time or money to build an arms lab and get the weapons upgrade to negate that armor. The aliens get a nice coat or armor for a whopping 2 resources a pop. The marines, with nothing to do, usually stand weak and undefended against the aliens' newfound armor until the midgame begins, wherapon the aliens don't care about the carapace anymore and are now playing as fades. Meh. So, I think the shotgun should be reduced in cost to 10 resources - as much as a welder. In exchange, the shotgun would do much less damage against buidings, perhaps even less so than LMG's (preventing an easy exploit for clan rush tactics). This way, the shotgun becomes much more of an anti-personnel weapon, which given the new price tag, should probably appear in greater numbers at just about the time the skulks start getting carapace. Most of the marines will probably still have their LMG's, so the skulks should still have their usual advantage with carapace; but they will now have the new fear of having to evade that skilled marine shotgunner. By the time the midgame rolls around, the shotguns will start being replaced with the more effective, more powerful, and more ranged HMG's.
As for a marine umbra counter, I highly suggest a flamethrower. ****, Flarya, I know you want to have volumetric flames or none at all, but this is really the perfect solution for a marine team in need of a counter against an alien umbra siege. The flamethrower would of course be quite shortranged, and would probably be only effevtive against your smaller Kharaa critters (Fades and Onos's could run through relatively unfazed, requiring a HMG or two to help). Basically, it would be a support weapon that would help against skulks, gorges, and especially lerks. Costing about 20 res, marines could use the flamethrower to spam high-traffic vents, doorways, and corridors and scare off skulks. There would be a nice long reload cycle, and the threat of running out of "ammo," thereby giving skulks their chance against an unskilled spammer. More importantly, the flamethrower could be used against umbra spewing lerks, bypassing the umbra's effect, killing the lerk source, and allowing the marines to fight off the fades. Right now, the power of umbra makes it nigh-impossible for marines to fight off a wel-coordinated alien team (two or even 3 lerks? I shudder the thought).
I don't agree with adding fragmentation grenades into the fray, because I forsee a LOT of grenade spammage issues. Think of how it is now with the grenade launcher, only now everyone has one and can use them throughout the entire game. Nonononono.
Better turret factory and base defenses - meh. I think marines have it fine the way it is.
As for his alien upgrades list, he has apparently forgotten that each tower sort of has three abilities. I personally think my own suggestions were better.
As for his whole 3rd hive theory - no. Nonononononono. Aliens aren't supposed to get third hive, and if they do, game's over. That's it. That's why he sees things as being so "unbalanced" - because everything that IS level 3 hive is a game-ender. Jetpackers being able to counter an Onos - HAH! The jetpackers had the chance to counter the onos by securing one of the unused hives or by killing an existing one; if aliens get Onos, then they should be able to kill jetpackers. Besides, the onos already has it hard enough as is, with all his getting-stuck-in-walls shenanigans. I think the only unbalance in this respect is that marines don't have a similar game-breaker. When marines kill one hive and bring the aliens down to one, the game still seems to drag on FOREVER, though it should only last a few more minutes. This is mainly due to how much of a terror a turret-spamming gorge, a resource-tower-munching group of skulks, and a spike-spamming lerk can be. IMHO, a level 3 armor/weapons marine should be able to tear apart a 1-hive alien team, and quickly. Though I don't know how this can really be achieved without unbalancing the game in other respects.
Hmmm- lerks. They definitely need to be cheaper, given their overall use to the team (especially during the beginning of a game - going lerk is widely considered a waste of resources). I think spike is a cheap way to prolong a dead game, and rarely leads to an alien comeback, so I can agree with nerfing it in exchange for a new ability. THis new ability shouldn't be umbra (this NEEDS to be lerft to the 3rd slot), though, and I don't think it should be parasite either. Sorry, no real suggestions here.
Which brings me to the end to his article. I aplogize again for the longness of this post :/