Here Are The Facts About Grenade Damage.
Kitsune
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
<div class="IPBDescription">So the panic may end. Now.</div> After having seen the dozens of 'OMFG GRENS KILL ONOS IN ONE HIT11!!11!1!!!' posts, I spent an hour on a 1.04d server with Shrike30, SilverFox, and GetLit to perform controlled tests on the weapons in 1.04. Findings are as follows:
<b><i><u>GRENADES ARE NOT DOING 200 DAMAGE.</u></i></b>
They are not doing 180 damage.
They are doing <b>90</b> damage, exactly as before, with double damage on structures.
Upgrades are working properly for them, adding 10% per level, up to 117 damage at level 3.
That's on a direct hit.
Level 3 grenades will kill an uncarapaced Fade in 3 shots, a carapaced Fade in 7. They will kill an uncarapaced Onos in 7 shots, a carapaced Onos in 11. Unupgraded grenades will kill Fades in 4/8 hits, and Onoses in 8/14 hits. I have tested this, that is how it is. A full grenade clip will not kill a carapaced Fade or Onos, even in your dreams. So please relax about them.
Other findings:
Pistols and LMGs are now doing proper damage at level 3, thanks to Flayra for fixing that.
Marines are not being harmed by their own grenades. Dunno if that's a bug, intentional, something unique to that server, or what. We were plopping grenades right at our feet and taking no damage. Don't know if the same holds true for the Fade area-effect weapons.
Sensory chambers are insanely tough. It took four level 3 grenades to destroy defense and movement chambers, six to destroy offense chambers, and ten to destroy a sensory chamber. Things just wouldn't die. Not like they're high-priority targets or anything affecting gameplay, just something weird we found.
Anyways, it is my deepest hope that this will end the firestorm of conjecture and flat-out incorrect statements being made about 1.04 grenade damage. It may have seemed like they blew you up in two hits, or maybe the damage was tweaked between 1.04c and 1.04d, but trust me here, I shot direct hits on a guy on five separate occasions for the same damage each time. It is not doing that much.
Thanks go to the three guys who gave selflessly of their time to confirm all of this, and to the Skulk Pit server admin for leaving his server running in the middle of the night so we could sneak in and use it for our experiments.
<b><i><u>GRENADES ARE NOT DOING 200 DAMAGE.</u></i></b>
They are not doing 180 damage.
They are doing <b>90</b> damage, exactly as before, with double damage on structures.
Upgrades are working properly for them, adding 10% per level, up to 117 damage at level 3.
That's on a direct hit.
Level 3 grenades will kill an uncarapaced Fade in 3 shots, a carapaced Fade in 7. They will kill an uncarapaced Onos in 7 shots, a carapaced Onos in 11. Unupgraded grenades will kill Fades in 4/8 hits, and Onoses in 8/14 hits. I have tested this, that is how it is. A full grenade clip will not kill a carapaced Fade or Onos, even in your dreams. So please relax about them.
Other findings:
Pistols and LMGs are now doing proper damage at level 3, thanks to Flayra for fixing that.
Marines are not being harmed by their own grenades. Dunno if that's a bug, intentional, something unique to that server, or what. We were plopping grenades right at our feet and taking no damage. Don't know if the same holds true for the Fade area-effect weapons.
Sensory chambers are insanely tough. It took four level 3 grenades to destroy defense and movement chambers, six to destroy offense chambers, and ten to destroy a sensory chamber. Things just wouldn't die. Not like they're high-priority targets or anything affecting gameplay, just something weird we found.
Anyways, it is my deepest hope that this will end the firestorm of conjecture and flat-out incorrect statements being made about 1.04 grenade damage. It may have seemed like they blew you up in two hits, or maybe the damage was tweaked between 1.04c and 1.04d, but trust me here, I shot direct hits on a guy on five separate occasions for the same damage each time. It is not doing that much.
Thanks go to the three guys who gave selflessly of their time to confirm all of this, and to the Skulk Pit server admin for leaving his server running in the middle of the night so we could sneak in and use it for our experiments.
Comments
BlueGhost
Keep in mind, people - the GL is primarily a weapon for destroying STRUCTURES. That's why it does double damage to them.
Flayra: what about kicking grenades up to 130 or 150, but making them do 1.5x to structures instead of 2x?
Keep in mind, people - the GL is primarily a weapon for destroying STRUCTURES. That's why it does double damage to them.
Flayra: what about kicking grenades up to 130 or 150, but making them do 1.5x to structures instead of 2x?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like this.
As many of us learned on Joes servers when it was running 1.04b Grenade Launchers bring a whole new meaning to the term "wall of lame". Any marine with a gl near a armory can keep any number of aliens at bay from two different directions indefinately. This was "fixed" in 1.04c and beyond. 1.04b it seems was at 200 dammage for GL's for critters AND structers with extreme blast range that was not blocked by any physical objects (walls ect.
With 1.04c the GL dammage seemed to still be pretty intense but the blast radius and unstoppable blast seemed to be severely muted down to original values. As a skulk a couple nades would still pulverize you but at least not from across the map.
1.04d almost feels like GLs are back to 1.03 standards, although it still clears out alien structeres effectively and most fades arent willing to hang around the blast area's (perhaps having flashbacks to 1.04b?).
IMHO the dammage should stay around 200 and do double vs alien structeres, the blast radius should be about where it is in 1.04c and be able to take a onos down in 4 nades. To compensate for this it should also be EXTREMELY LOUD and noticible. When a nade lands it should make a nice clinking sound and be hard to miss (remember quake 1?). As it stands there its not so much the fact that the grenades have killed you, its that you never even knew they were there or where they were landing.
Hell if you wanna make this interesting make the damage 800 (1600 vs structeres ensuring instant erasing of walls of lame) with the 1.04b blast radius (minus the going through walls bit), and make it single shot with a 6 to 8 second reload time. Big enough boom to take down an onos, blast radius to send lerks skulks and fades a running when they hear it land, and enough of a reload time for all those skulks and fades to dog pile the Grenadier with rightous fury for daring to blow up half their squad. Jack the price up on the bad boy to ohnos levels (76-80 resources), theory being if it can kill an onos in one shot it better cost as much as one. Have a nice trail of smoke (like tribes motor canisters) comming from the place of fire to the grenades landing area so that all local critters know who to blame. Also after said dog pile kills the grenadier and the poor hambergered marines buddies finish off the skulks and faded who took him out and pick up his GL they have to wait 6 to 8 seconds while the GL reloads before they can use it *chomp chomp chomp*.
Fixing them to do damage to the marine who uses them would be a big help right off the bat. I'm betting that whatever changes were made to keep mines from hurting marines affected the grenades, too. Also betting that it'll be fixed in short order; grenade launchers are weapons that should demand at least some small amount of skill from the users. It's like Tribes, the guys who were good with the mortar launchers could drop a shot on target by sheer instinct, while the guys who weren't just spammed useless explosions everywhere. I'd suggest making them hurt teammates if I didn't know that we'd be overrun by teamkilling idiots in a heartbeat if it worked that way. But you can bet that people in tournament servers either show great skill with indirect weapons, or are never handed a grenade launcher a second time.
UhOh, I didn't get enough time with 1.04b or 1.04c to observe grenades in action, so I'll take your word for it that they were considerably more powerful then. I heard about the detonating through walls bug, and probably should have tested for that in 1.04d, but it slipped my mind. But in any event, grenade damage is back to 1.03 levels as of 1.04d, except for the upgradeable aspect of them, which doesn't make any big impact. Three upgrade levels means that Fades die with one less hit than before. No big thing. More of a difference against carapaced Onoses, but that's a good thing in my opinion, since there's not much else that the marines have that can dent an Onos with carapace 3. At least not before the Onos tears everything apart. Even with the grenades, no one person is getting 11 direct hits on an Onos before dying. That's about 20 seconds of firing and reloading, the Onos would either have to be stuck or very, very dumb.
I've <i>always</i> hated grenades as a Fade or Lerk. They really ruin my day, throwing a wrench immediately into any hope of a smooth umbra+rocket attack. They're great weapons, they've just been neglected, by and large. Now that people are taking notice of them, they're actually seeing common use, and more people are learning just how good they are, then coming to the conclusion that it's because of the 1.04 thing, and Fade players are learning the same hatred of them that I've fostered from the start. But like I pointed out, they are not appreciably more powerful now than they were in 1.02 and 1.03, so the people who aren't happy with them now will remain unhappy if they're returned to the 1.03 level.
Grenades are powerful. They've always been powerful, before 1.01 they were even more powerful than they are now. Short of making them useless or flat out removing them, nothing will change that fact. Fades had it easy while the humans were ignorant of the rich creamy goodness of grenades, but now they're going to have to work for their supper. The days of easy acid rocket kills are coming to an end. People should accept that and start working on new tactics. Using Skulks to get in close and personal to the grenadiers strikes me as a good idea, for starters. Gives the little guys a very good role in the midgame. We'll see what ideas people come up with.
NO! 4 nades for an onos is too little. An onos with carapace should be quite a lot harder to kill even for a "grenadier". As it is now, it takes more nades and thats fine by me. Nades not doing FF damage is fine too, since fades can spam acid and bile and the lerks spew poison without doing ff damage. FIne that marines can nade away as well, then.
You _ARE_ aware that the damage is 90/180 now right? 200 and double vs structures? It's too wild. We should have a tactical nuke instead <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Was there a bug in that patch that made grenades do full 200 damage on aliens as well as buildings? Or was it the blast radius issue that had the unwashed masses up in rebel?
I don't think its fare though, I mean seriously, who expects to be able to lay down a few nades at their feet and NOT die? If the damage is increased then nades need to be doing normal damage to their user if they are caught in the blast, and make the people shooting these things be a bit more responsible.
Im sick of playing games where the comm hands out GLs like candy, and then when an Alien pops up all you here is "pthunk pthunk pthunk pthunk" times 5....a few seconds later your blinded by a dozen nades gong off.
BTW, I don't know whats up with your tests, but I am 100% sure that in a game yesterday I was taken from 200hp 125 armor to 100hp 50 armor (roughly) with 1 nade. This is on Voogru's server, where he actually reduced the nade damage a bit.
I have played a Fade before the patch and after the patch, and I do notice a huge damage difference in nades.
Also I would like to point out, the closest thing Aliens have to GLs is Bile Bomb, which takes 3 hives to get. Now massive damage differences aside, both Bile Bomb and Acid Rocket will do self inflicted damage, and they do piddly damage compared to a GL. Yet they will inflict damage on the user.
I thought GLs were supposed to be for clearing structures, not annihilating structures & any other unlucky **** of a life form that happens to be in the blast radius.
Grens are things that in my opinion, should be massively powerful. I mean, they are huge explosives, so they should be the most damageing weapon in the game.
You can't nerf the gren launcher, because if you look at it properly, if you chucked a highly explosive thing at something, it AINT gonna survive.
Not, NS aint real life at all, but what I am saying is that grens doing massive damage makes sense.
I have played on 1.04 svrs(b,c,d) and I would say that nade damage being high is a good thing, as now it is nowhere near as easy to rip apart the marine base with just lvl2 abilites.
Instead, it gets to more of a fight for the third hive. which is better, than the game being dominated by fades in pubs.
Fades have too easy a time atm taking out bases, as there is nothing that can damage then sufficiently at long range, DONT start saying 'OMG n00b, you have to rush them!!!111' cause I know that.
But my point is that the marines need something that can easily combat the power of long range fades, and fades that sit round the corners.
I dont know about what you guys think, but I think that 1-2 direct hits with the gren launcher should take out an un-carapaced fade, and 2-3 should take down a carapaced one.
Thing about this is that people say, OMG HE TOOK ME OUT WITH ONE GREN!!!!!!.
But, as Cyborgguineapig said, the chances are that a hell of a lot more than just the grens are damaging you, so it IS fair, I mean, if you waltz into a marine base as a carapaced fade, you cant think your invincible, so you will be getting fired at by most ppl, now if the gren dude is a good shot, then he will land one on you, and BANG, there goes 200ish point of hp/armor, now the thing is, by the time he has aimed, people will have probably taken down your hp/armor by about 50-100, so it is just the finishing thing.
Hopefully with gren being able to fight off ppl well, we will see more abilities for the third hive, instead of fades just ending the game(I hope).
If you think that I am speaking as a dedicated marine, then your wrong, I almost ALWAYS play aliens, and that cos I am better at it and find it more fun tbh <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Nades have always been this powerful, they just weren't seen very often, or used correctly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's probably your problem right there. Either he's using an old patch or he goofed something up.
Anyways, as I pointed out above, I'm confident that the non-damage to user aspect of grenades is a bug. I'm equally confident that it will be fixed soon. So don't get cozy with being able to shoot something two feet in front of you and just prance through the blast yourself. Increased grenade damage is a double-edged sword in the hands of the incompetent.
Correct.
now there could be one grenade you saw exploding, but in reality 5 grenades exploded that moment.
Correct.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may sound like a moderately insane idea... but reading this bug gave me a thought. What if the damage from a grenade is 'capped' at what would result in zero damage to the launching player? I.E. Let a player drop a grenade at their feet, it'll do no damage to them because it detects they're nearby. But at the same time, it won't hurt that fade or skulk nearby either.
From a math perspective, calculate the damage the firer of the grenade would take, say it's 45 points of damage out of 90 before any armor is calculated. Now, all damage values done by the grenade are lowered by 45 before armor stuff, to a minimum of 0. This means that the player can't hurt themselves with a grenade, but a grenade at their own feet won't hurt anyone else either.
And when used offensively we come across the PROBLEM with super-powerful grenades - they're unstoppable by anything the aliens have. The Marines just walk around the map clearing the whole thing out, unimpeded.
Honestly, what kind of idiot do you have to be to want grenades to quickly kill everything in the game like an unstoppable superweapon?!
A Marine-only idiot, apparently, because no one who ever plays Kharaa would EVER agree that those costly (time and RC-wise) Walls of Lame (the Kharaa's only real geographic defense ability) should die so incredibly fast as they do now with no way to stop it.
If there was a greater time requirement for the GL to come into play, it would be more acceptable, but right now there is no real restriction on the GL except the one Armory upgrade. This doesn't take very long and allowing GLs that quickly means Marines will can be nading stuff before a second hive is built by aliens in your average game.
And there's NO WAY it takes 4-5 grenades to kill a non-carapace Fade, because I clearly remember playing as a Fade (with Regen no less) the first time I came across a Marine with a GL and he killed me with 3-4 grenades at the most and this was back in the 1.0 or 1.01 days.
A team of three Marines can walk around the entire map wiping everything out - one with a GL, one with an HMG for support, and one with a welder for repairing armor. Comm just drops medpacks and ammo and it's game over, man, game over.
And this is in 1.03. And you want to DOUBLE THEIR DAMAGE to around 200hp?! Are you NUTS?!
Clearly, you'd be ignorant, but I'm just questioning your sanity as well.
(Btw, the word "you" in this post does not directly address any specific person - instead it addresses, in general, anyone who thinks grenades need to do more damage than they currently do.)
Hey I have an idea - let's make Fades' BileBomb as powerful as the Marine's Grenade Launcher and see how long it takes for Marine players to pitch fits about it all over these forums. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
About grenade damage: isn't the plan to up it to 200 but lose the structural damage modifier? That way it's equally effective to structures and aliens... a few people have refuted that and I'm confused on this point.
That explains that, grenade damage was reduced after 1.0. An unupgraded grenade launcher takes four direct hits to kill an uncarapaced Fade. An upgraded launcher (or a launcher from 1.0) takes three. I invite you to go to a 1.04 server and test it yourself if you believe otherwise.
I'll show you the math:
90 damage.
70% to health = 63 damage.
30% to armor, halved = 13.5 damage.
So one unupgraded grenade does 63/13.5 damage on a direct hit.
Uncarapaced Fades have 200/125 health and armor, and die well before the armor is gone, making this really simple.
200 divided by 63 is 3.17, for four shots.
A level 3 grenade does 117 damage.
70% to health = 81.9 damage, rounded down to 81.
30% to armor, halved = 17.55 damage.
So one fully-upgrade grenade does 81/17.55 damage.
200 divided by 81 is 2.47, for three shots.
Against a Fade with carapace 3, on the other hand, those grenades only do 25/18.9 and 32/24.57 damage, thanks to the 30% damage negation provided as long as they have armor remaining. That is why carapaced Fades survive twice as long against grenades, and why carapace is by far the best defensive evolution for them to take.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Data: Frontiersmen have a love/hate relationship with the "Arc" grenade launcher. It has been put to spectacular use in heavy conflicts, especially when assaulting Kharaa hive rooms. The pneumatic delivery system is relatively basic – it's the grenades that are high tech. They can detect the heat and bacterial signature of a Kharaa lifeform (including chambers and hives), and will explode instead of bouncing off. Otherwise, they explode after 4 seconds. Though the blast particles are large enough to incorporate TSA FriendlyFire technology, the firer is still vulnerable to these blasts – so the Arc is best placed in experienced hands.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soooo the GL should harm the user according to the manual. Furthermore (and to reiterate the above point):
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> note on "Friendly Fire": the phenomena of "friendly fire" (weapons damaging one's own teammates) has been circumvented in the 22nd century, by the use of nano-triggers and nano-weaponry. Currently the term "FriendlyFire" refers to this system. Shrapnel, bullets, and blast particles are split-second destabilized before striking any Frontiersmen, fragmenting harmlessly against their armor. In rare cases nano-gridlock has been known to interfere with this protection for the duration of a battle. Another strange gap in the FriendlyFire system: a fired weapon still injures the person who activated it. This is only a danger with grenades and mines … but is very important to note.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So mines and grenades should hurt the user. Maybe rested in 1.1?