<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have been killed by uncarapaced skulks. Thing is, it is never due to them being sneaky, it is just numbers. Four skulks will get me usually. I might be able to get a knife kill, but 3/4 of the time... No. If I get somewhere and try to defend it against un-carapaced skulks, they had better come in large numbers or I am not leaving. Knowing the maps and vent locations prevents ambushes, and a louder-than-average sound volume lets you hear that clicking sound of skulk feet a mile away even while building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its counterable because, supposedly, you can take 4 skulks on at the same time.
It does work.. the few times when the people on the 3am server actually allow me putting sensory down first, we've won to the dismay of the entire marine team and a few of the aliens. Go there if you don't believe me, ask Spool, he'll tell you.
<!--QuoteBegin--BlueGhost+Jan 20 2003, 03:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BlueGhost @ Jan 20 2003, 03:39 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically carapice makes a <b>BIG</b> difference to your ability to take out held positions, and sensory makes none what so ever. 8 level 3 carapice skulks rushing a marine installation will have a reasonable chance of taking it out, 8 cloaking skulks will have an excellent chance of dieing horribly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I fully agree with this argument. Many others are questionable, but reclaiming marine outposts is VITAL to aliens that want to reach 2 hives. If marines are allowed to set up resources and turret their first hive with impunity, you're in serious trouble. If marines are able to use their few resources with perfect efficiency (because no structures ever get destroyed), you'll have some nasty upgrades to deal with too. They will soon manage to force into the second hive and take it too, and one they've started you have a very difficult time pushing them out.
DC healing hive and OCs... eh. It's so slow that it doesn't affect determined marines.
Survival rate of cloak vs carapace while ambushing is hard to tell, it depends on how quiet you are with armor. I tend to believe carapace is a little better, because while you draw fire your teammates can race in and start attacking even before you die.
If the comm wants to get his marines anywhere and he knows the aliens have sensory, all he has to do is sensor sweep ahead of his marines as they go whereever he wants them to go. Suddenly, the aliens die horribly. And once the marines get where they want to go, the skulks are screwed because they cant attack anything.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 20 2003, 06:49 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 20 2003, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its counterable because, supposedly, you can take 4 skulks on at the same time.
It does work.. the few times when the people on the 3am server actually allow me putting sensory down first, we've won to the dismay of the entire marine team and a few of the aliens. Go there if you don't believe me, ask Spool, he'll tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it is counterable by the cheap scanner sweep. If the skulks do not run from their hiding places, they die, and if they run, the marines get where they are going. Either way, marines-1 aliens-0.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If aliens have sens first, marines will struggle to leave spawn as long as aliens are remotely careful. In the time it takes them to save up for ha or hmg another hive is well on its way. Sensory is total ownage. You do not need a lot of health cause you have suprirse, you strike when they turn their back, you strike out of the blue marines take a second to figure out where that skulk came from and in that time he is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> (correction of some spelling mine, it was painfull even for me)
This is true for the first single marine. <b>IF</b> the enemy is competent they <b>CAN</b> scan. When <b>ONE</b> marine squad has made it accross the map (scanning all the way if necessary) you will find it nigh on impossible to clean them from a held location. They do two such forays (one two each empty hive) and you've lost the game.
If they're in-competent well, you're all kickass skulks anyway right so its not important you can just munch em.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its counterable because, supposedly, you can take 4 skulks on at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cannot take 4 non-carapiced skulks down at the same time on my own. <b>HOWEVER</b> with competent marines at my side I AM NEVER ON MY OWN. Four skulks without carapice charing two marines who're defending a location? They'll scream for backup the second they see you and kill two minimum befor you reach them.
Even if by some miracle you kill two marines without loss you're going to munch a blind spot in the TF, THEN munch down the TF <b>THEN </b> take out the phase gate all without carapice and all the while with marines leaping through the phase and trying to kill you?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It does work.. the few times when the people on the 3am server actually allow me putting sensory down first, we've won to the dismay of the entire marine team and a few of the aliens. Go there if you don't believe me, ask Spool, he'll tell you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a better idea, you come to www.warserver.com IP:212.42.1.203:27015 Come along at around midnight UK time on a saturday and play on the alien team against the regulars. Just make sure you've got some of the FSA, LoG or eH boys against you (preferably cookie, myself or AngryMonkey as com) and just try sensory first.
The point is sensory has a counter that you can do <b>NOTHING</b> about, if they scan you cloak is useless. Unless they're doing a very un-usual build order (HMG rush, or something) then they'll already have an obs so each scan costs 1 res.
If you have carapice it still works if they know where you are, if you hide 4 skulks around a corner they still have to come within 1m of you to shoot at you.
I was refering back to the "Fellow Aliens" thread when i typed aboot that canadianmonkey being able to take droves of skulks by himself, but ANYWAYS. I always camp one of the other two hives with or without cloaking and i encourage other people to camp the other one because that way you will know exactly when and what the marines are building. Now..
Defense Chamber... A skulk tries to hide somewhere and hopes not to get killed (depending on which hive this can be really easy or really hard) Then when a marine(s) come he warns the entire team then attempts to kill marine(s).
Movement Chamber... Same thing but at über speeds! ...or quieter.
Sensory Chamber... A skulk hides anywhere (good for hives that are either really open or you just want to kill the marine(s) really fast) What you need to do is sit either one the ceiling or floor and when they start to build or run into you, you CHOMP! The first chomp knocks the marine's HUD off to the side and the second bite kills him. If there were many marines you do the standard running and running and running like a constipated weiner dog while biting to mop them up. Rinse Reuse Recycle.
If for whatever reason any of the skulks (as in the one with carapAce, celerity/silence, or cloak) dies the rest of the skulks that were called in for help will clean house. Marines down 20 or 42 (phase and RT) resources aliens still have 2 clear hives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a better idea, you come to www.warserver.com IP:212.42.1.203:27015 Come along at around midnight UK time on a saturday and play on the alien team against the regulars. Just make sure you've got some of the FSA, LoG or eH boys against you (preferably cookie, myself or AngryMonkey as com) and just try sensory first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can try but I live in the States so I don't think I will ping that good...
Re-run your example with a com who can use the scan button. I just checked the 3am new york server the quality of play on that server was horrific. If you want specifics please ask.
Honestly, most of you people need to learn how to live without carapace. With cloaking, you can wait on the ground (or on a wall/ceiling) for some marines to come by, then after the last one goes past you, jump out and attack. Most marines will not know what hit them until its too late. Also, don't forget that the SC "sees" marines and can tell you when/where they are coming. So you won't need DC to heal your O chambers, because if you have good skulks, they will get the marines before the O chambers even see action.
Also, scanner sweep does not uncloak you. Another thing is that the hive won't need healing after v1.04 because hives now spawn with 100% hp.
Yea, you might need DCs for fades, but its not really needed IMO.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Re-run your example with a com who can use the scan button.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well Ok...
Defense Chamber Skulk... Hiding spot gets revealed by scan, skulk calls for backup skulk, dies, other skulks take back hive.
Movement Chamber Skulk... Same as above.
Sensory Chamber Skulk... Same as above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just checked the 3am new york server the quality of play on that server was horrific.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It must not have had regulars in it, usually it's pretty good.
--Edit-- On a completely unrelated note, can anyone tell me why this forum thing won't let me put my avatar on? It says "You are not allowed to upload that type of file as an avatar" even though it is a 64x64 .jpg file?
Sensory is worthless, especially sensory first. I can killl 3-4 skulks with level 3 sensory without reloading, vs level 3 carapace im lucky to kill two. It is simply impossible to take down a phase gate let along any other structs without level 3 carpace simply because you die in only 9 bullets..
You all just need to stop beating the dead horse of which chamber goes first. YES, defense first IS very reliable and it DOES work, but guess what, it may come as a shock, it LOSES too. (!) You CAN win with defense, you CAN win with Movement, and you CAN win with Sensory. (Yes, against very viable opponents, not just noobies; don't get me started on that...) Any "elite" (depending on your definition of elite) marine team can wipe out any aliens, regardless of chamber. They can scanner sweep to look for any aliens, and they still can call for backup whenever they want, that doesn't change. Sure, for SOME people it might seem a little more difficult to win using sensory, but it makes it all the sweeter when you can brag that you actually won with the condemned Sensory first tactic...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just checked the 3am new york server the quality of play on that server was horrific. If you want specifics please ask<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, please I'm interested to hear, Oh and by the way, were the people playing in the server at the time all mysteriously named "NSPlayer"? Thanks for the invite to your server, but as a lazy, fat, unmotivated American, I cannot convert the time change correctly, and as an American, my skills are not up to par with your 1337-ness.
- Torgo
(I put my name here because apparently the average person cannot figure out my name from the stated name directly to the left of the post)
Yeah, I'd say 3am server complete sucks. Mainly because I love it, and it's full a lot of the time so I don't want you taking my spot. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> So stop your crybaby whining, whoreboy.
All of the chambers can make useful first upgrades. DEFENSE is ideal for the armor bonus and taking out fortified installations, as someone pointed out. However SENSORY is very good for preventing those installations from being built in the first place. A skulk's ambush ability is increased vastly by being able to hide anywhere and out in the open. Without sensory, you're forced to hide in predictable locations. As for MOVEMENT, it's all about celerity. Defense may mean you can take more hits, but celerity means you'll get hit less and be able to close MUCH faster. In the hands of a good skulk, I'd say it's actually better than carapace.
So why is defense popular? Because no matter how much you suck, you can get some benefit from defense upgrades. Carapace and redemption basically protect players from their own lack of skill.
<!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Jan 20 2003, 11:34 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Jan 20 2003, 11:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sensory is worthless, especially sensory first. I can killl 3-4 skulks with level 3 sensory without reloading, vs level 3 carapace im lucky to kill two. It is simply impossible to take down a phase gate let along any other structs without level 3 carpace simply because you die in only 9 bullets..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is just simply WRONG. 'Impossible' to take down a phase gate? Then how can I and so many others have done the impossible many times? The art to eating a phase gate is your level of alertness and your evasive manuevering once a marine phases in. I have killed plenty of phase busy gates as a non-upgraded basic skulk.
You people who constantly make assertions like this need to shut up and learn more about the rest of the world before you make such a claim. It is NOT worthless simply because your playing style is too rigid to take advantage of its qualities.
Sensory is great. Just camp those choke points and theres absolutely nothing they can do about it except for scanner sweep. And thats too expensive to do everywhere in the new patch.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because no matter how much you suck, you can get some benefit from defense upgrades. Carapace and redemption basically protect players from their own lack of skill. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ha true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is NOT worthless simply because your playing style is too rigid to take advantage of its qualities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, go to the "Fellow Aliens" thread...same thing but in there it was called "close mindedness." Go there and wake up to the fact that you can win with anything, you can win with no chambers if you wanted too.
I swore I'd never do this, but I'll give it one more shot (throwing in my two cents to this age-old argument AGAIN, that is).
There are two reasons why cloaking is not viable, compared with carapace:
1: The major claimed advantage of cloaking is that you can set up ambushes far easier and stop the marines from expanding out of their base. This does not work. It has been proven time and time again that if the marines truly want to leave their base, they will. Ambush tactics are delaying tactics at best - sooner or later you have to chase down and kill the marines. Cloaking will not help you then. The only time I've seen the kharaa successfully contain a marine team was when we had four or five excellent fighters, the marines were merely average, and we were <i>very</i> well co-ordinated. Cloaking had nothing to do with it.
There are several reasons why cloaking (and ambushes in general) do not work. 1a: Once the marines realise that cloaking is being used they will react accordingly and use scanner sweeps and movement tracking. They will open fire on obvious hiding spots, looking for cloaked aliens. The advantage is soon lost.
1b: Effective ambushes require a huge degree of co-ordination between teammates, and all the skulks working together. This rarely happens, except for clan games (granted, it may be a viable tactic in such a clanwar)
1c: If marines slip through the net, they have to be tracked and killed. To do so, you have to keep moving. This prevents you from cloaking. You might argue that you'd wait in ambush in locations where you think the marine is going to be moving, but doing so means you are only guarding one single area instead of covering a wider area by patrol. You are less likely to detect new intrusions, and you might miss your quarry completely without even knowing.
1d: Ambushes are a defensive tactic, and playing defensively never works. If you are defensive, you are not moving out to attack the enemy. What happens if they secure a resource nozzle? Are you going to wait outside it for them to come to you? Kharaa or marine, time and time again it has been proven that if you hole yourself up in your base <i>you will lose</i>. You can only win by attacking, not by defending.
Now, the other major problem with cloaking: 2: Carapace <i>greatly</i> increases the combat endurance of skulks (ie, how long they can stay in the fight for without dying\leaving to regen). This means skulks have a much better chance against marines, and have more time when attacking marine installations. Carapace is NOT the refuge of the skilless n00b, it is ESSENTIAL for anyone serious about melee combat, and it's vital for destroying marine hardware. And, as I've stressed before, only by destroying marine hardware can you defeat your enemy! Yes, it is POSSIBLE to take out marine bases without carapace, but it's considerably easier with. Cloaking offers no advantage in this regard, and that's a serious deficiency.
2a: Fades. Fades need carapace. Fades are required to combat HA\HMG, and a fade without carapace is like a piece of crepe paper in the rain. They're expensive investments, almost as expensive as HA\HMG marines, and as such they need all the protection they can get.
2b: Before you say it, a fade can't expect to get the drop on a HA\HMG by using cloaking and expect to live. They'd either have to be very, VERY good or the marine absolutely terrible, or both. Yes, it's POSSIBLE to pull it off. It's also possible to play one handed and blindfolded. It's possible, but it's unnecesarily difficult and offers no real reward.
If you can offer actual proof of cloaking tactics being reliably, repeatably effective (demos, for preference, but anecdotes will probably have to do) then I'm all ears. And before you start whining about "being more open minded" please understand that I'm not categorically labelling sensory first as a bucket of crap, I'm explaining in detail why it isn't viable. Don't tell me I can't walk through walls because I don't have an open mind about it. Oh, and please actually READ what I've just written and refute it, instead of just ignoring it and regurgitating the same tired arguments because someone's disagreeing.
Someone copy Soulskorpion's post and program so that it will be posted to every "Sensory blaa, blaa"-topic. If you seriously and honestly wish to prove sensory is worth something, play 30-999999 rounds on random public servers over a long period of time, create a static on your victories and scientifically analyze the reasons for your victory. I have never, ever seen a "sensory first"-guy do this and thus their credibility is at zero level. Without any concrete proof it's hard to take them seriously. I've only heard completely idealistic and humorous "theories", no serious testing, about the potential of sensory chamber, which, at least to me, create a picture like this: "If you build sensory, you can cloak and marines can't see you! Don't you understand, if they don't see you, they can't kill you! You'll be invincible!". Naturally, the actual killing process where the marines shoot you is left completely out at these theories. Base destruction ideas are left to the level of "Go there and take the TF and the PG out and kill 4 marines without carapace"-level, which pretty much equals "If you wan't to win in NS, be a good player" in their level of usefulness.
These arguments seem rather "dumb" and seem to be based wholly on "heart", "feelings", calling people "close-minded" and are about "cool" or "right" (ex. "Kharaa are supposed to do this and that... blaa, blaa.") ways of play. Do whatever you want with your chambers, just don't terrorize the servers I'm in by building sensory first <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well then we can make the arguement that defense first people are doing the same thing couldn't we? All they have been saying is stuff like "Carapace lets you live longer" and the like. The proof that sensory works is that in the old days of NS, everyone would always make the sensory chambers and would win so there you go there is you proof.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Naturally, the actual killing process where the marines shoot you is left completely out at these theories. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like i said a few posts before, if you are cloaked on the floor and a marine runs into you, bite once, the marines hud is knocked to the side, bite twice, dead marine. If there are any buddies then you simply run around like you would if you had carapace, but only with less health.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Base destruction ideas are left to the level of "Go there and take the TF and the PG out and kill 4 marines without carapace"-level<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
--Edit-- On a completely unrelated note, can anyone tell me why this forum thing won't let me put my avatar on? It says "You are not allowed to upload that type of file as an avatar" even though it is a 64x64 .jpg file. Anyone? If everyone was doing their jobs right, then nothing would have been built (see my post about camping the two hives.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->which pretty much equals "If you wan't to win in NS, be a good player" in their level of usefulness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Sensory first is not for the noobits and idoits, that is what defense chambers are for.
Eh-heh. I'm not going to keep this thread alive forever, but you do know that each time you log into a public server and begin a round, you don't have carapace so you can actually test what it's like without (more like you are forced to test it)? Then, after someone builds DC (which 99,9% of the time happens), you can see the results. You can also repeat this by going to any random public server you like, do it a million times (I probably have without even knowing!): with or without carapace and see the effects yourself. I, personally, have sneaked many times behind a marine, but have been unable to get him, because the marine speed is almost equal to alien (especially if he Bhops) and thus have been unable to get the second bite. With sensory all I hear are theories, theories, theories whose nobody has never properly tested and maybe someone did something weird once (won one/two games) and that's the whole proof. No, it's no proper proof. There are more variables than just one: hide or not hide is not everything. I can only think of a few, but there are more: reaction time, latency (affects reaction time), environment, team-mates, bhopping or not... etc, etc.
I find it extremely odd coming from one who wants to defend a new strategy to take his "proof" from HISTORY. The game changes: what was maybe in 1.0 isn't there anymore. What happened in the past is no proof nor relevant at all either.
No, you cannot evade the importance of troughout experimental research with theories. I'm sorry, but that's not how it goes. Theories are well, but they must also apply in a real game to be of any use. Unfortunately that's not how it goes in NS community apparantly... You can always sacrifice the other peoples game for your sensory-research, but that would be just too immoral and vile. People don't mind if you do DC-research however... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Yeah, well. Thats your playing style, when it comes right down to it all the chambers can get a win, and I prefere to use sensory, if you want to go defense first every single game you play, thats your buisness. Strange, all I have been hearing from defense first people are theories too, weird eh?
--Edit-- I still need help with that avatar thing...Any help would be appreciated.
Wait a second, isn't EVERYTHING that everyone posts here just "theories"? I mean how can anyone ever say that if you do this "x" way, then "y" will proceed to happen? I mean, unless you are God himself (and I don't think any of you are) you can't predict what will happen, you can only speculate that this way is better than the other. Sure, some people see it one way, other people see it this way. That's the end of the argument, so if you said "This will be the last time I will post on this topic" or something of the like, please follow through, we don't need to here your SAME POINTS about "theories" over and over and over and over again. (Defense Movement, and Sensory defenders)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The proof that sensory works is that in the old days of NS, everyone would always make the sensory chambers and would win so there you go there is you proof.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, that merely proves that sensory USED to work, before marines learned to adapt to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Like i said a few posts before, if you are cloaked on the floor and a marine runs into you, bite once, the marines hud is knocked to the side, bite twice, dead marine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not as simple as that. You often still have to deal with turret fire, and gunfire from other marines.
Although cloaking <i>would</i> remove the problems inovlved with closing the distance to your target...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If there are any buddies then you simply run around like you would if you had carapace, but only with less health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and without carapace you have less of a change of surviving the marine's buddies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If everyone was doing their jobs right, then nothing would have been built (see my post about camping the two hives.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but you're assuming that everyone does their job right on a pub server. They don't (well at least not all the game). You can't honestly expect to prevent the marines from setting up any outposts, that's just naive. At the very least, ambush tactics only have to make one mistake for the marines to get out and set up a base which can't be removed, and no tactic is executed perfectly every single time. There's no safety net for if you stuff up, in other words
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yep. Sensory first is not for the noobits and idoits, that is what defense chambers are for. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Saying DCs are for newbies is just as blanket as saying SCs are for newbies, and just as pointless.
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=18012&st=105' target='_blank'>The Fellow Aliens Thread</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True...the hive will heal itself, but EXTREMELY slowly. Throwing up 3 defense chambers under it really speeds things up, as well as heal spraying the hive while you wait for res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> but you see, what use are those def chambers after there done? oh yeah/ NONE!@ cuase your troops should be anywere but at your hives, cuase you should have the marines occupied at other locations trying to survive against a foe they can't even see!
heck most of the time no one builds SC anymore! It sux, becuase SC can save alot of lives and cuase way more havoc for the troops, so what they can use sensory, that doesn't nessarliy mean they see you!
Oooh, but the difference lies in the fact that DCs are being "tested" all the time (people use them) and judging by the way things are, they are a good bet if you want to win. Maybe alien side has more advantages or better players than marines, but the way I see it, aliens are winning. And they use DCs. Now you can't say that from sensories, because they aren't being tested at all and nobody has taken the initiative to start gathering hard evidence (which, by the way, is the job of the one trying to prove the benefits of "new", not the conservative part [me], who uses old strategies). Kinda like your expecting an accused to prove his not-guiltyness in court instead of the accusers having to prove it! You cannot replace a system (DCs) without having something better in it's place. People might be dumb sometimes, but they aren't THAT dumb that they would change from stronger strategies to weaker ones. I haven't seen any sensory testing so far so it's hard to tell which strategy is stronger...
That is, if you are trying to prove you have a valid strategy instead of converting people to your own "preferences". In which case you should highlight the fact you don't have any proof, but an opinion about the issue (which can be shrugged off). I do enjoy sensory every now and then, but usually our team loses due to demoralized people or because the sensory options aren't as useful (strong) or as easy to use as DC ones. I think it goes like this...
The ONE advantage of sensory is easily counterable by a simple scanner sweep. 3 resources, or 10, the marines are still going to get inside two hives. It is not a play style. Sensory sucks, and arguing that it does not is pointless. Trying to defend the map splits your forces into a thin shell around the marine spawn, leaving half your team to fight the entire marine team's push. For every inch of ground the marines take, it opens up another path away from their territory, leaving the aliens spread even more thinly.
<!--QuoteBegin--Crisqo+Jan 21 2003, 03:45 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Crisqo @ Jan 21 2003, 03:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The proof that sensory works is that in the old days of NS, everyone would always make the sensory chambers and would win so there you go there is you proof. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> How do you define the "old days?" Are the "old days" pre-release or immediate post-release? Why I ask this is because I've been playing NS since its release I dont remember Sens being the uber-leet chamber you imply it is. In fact I remember Def being more viable than Sens just as it is now.
Well I can only come up with two conclusions...One is that I have a problem, or two everyone else has a problem. Because everyone but a select few people all having a problem is unlikely it can be logically deduced that the 5 or 6 have the problem. The problem you ask? The problem is being really good and being able to win with defense, movement, and sensory as a starting chamber. So I'm going to apologize for everyone who ever used sensory and won. We are sorry for being good.
It isnt that you <i>cant</i> win with sens first its just that you are far more likely to win with def first. Oh...and can you possibly be more pompous?
And for the record, I don't care if you put up Granny's Patented Chili Recipe Chamber first, as long as I can eat faces. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
BiTMAP: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but you see, what use are those def chambers after there done? oh yeah/ NONE!@ cuase your troops should be anywere but at your hives, cuase you should have the marines occupied at other locations trying to survive against a foe they can't even see!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, when you have two hives up and have severely wounded fades returning from combat, having three defense chambers at the hive GREATLY boosts the healing, shortening the time the fades are out of action and allowing them to return to combat as soon as possible.
Pege: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oooh, but the difference lies in the fact that DCs are being "tested" all the time (people use them) and judging by the way things are, they are a good bet if you want to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fair enough, but so far there haven't been any cloaking tactics brought up on the forums which don't have flaws in them which can be picked up before even trying them out. If there are any viable sensory tactics I'd love to hear them.
Crisquo: <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I can only come up with two conclusions...One is that I have a problem, or two everyone else has a problem. Because everyone but a select few people all having a problem is unlikely it can be logically deduced that the 5 or 6 have the problem. The problem you ask? The problem is being really good and being able to win with defense, movement, and sensory as a starting chamber. So I'm going to apologize for everyone who ever used sensory and won. We are sorry for being good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not even coherent, so don't try to be witty. It isn't working.
Comments
Thing is, it is never due to them being sneaky, it is just numbers.
Four skulks will get me usually. I might be able to get a knife kill, but 3/4 of the time... No.
If I get somewhere and try to defend it against un-carapaced skulks, they had better come in large numbers or I am not leaving.
Knowing the maps and vent locations prevents ambushes, and a louder-than-average sound volume lets you hear that clicking sound of skulk feet a mile away even while building.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its counterable because, supposedly, you can take 4 skulks on at the same time.
It does work.. the few times when the people on the 3am server actually allow me putting sensory down first, we've won to the dismay of the entire marine team and a few of the aliens. Go there if you don't believe me, ask Spool, he'll tell you.
8 level 3 carapice skulks rushing a marine installation will have a reasonable chance of taking it out, 8 cloaking skulks will have an excellent chance of dieing horribly.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I fully agree with this argument. Many others are questionable, but reclaiming marine outposts is VITAL to aliens that want to reach 2 hives. If marines are allowed to set up resources and turret their first hive with impunity, you're in serious trouble. If marines are able to use their few resources with perfect efficiency (because no structures ever get destroyed), you'll have some nasty upgrades to deal with too. They will soon manage to force into the second hive and take it too, and one they've started you have a very difficult time pushing them out.
DC healing hive and OCs... eh. It's so slow that it doesn't affect determined marines.
Survival rate of cloak vs carapace while ambushing is hard to tell, it depends on how quiet you are with armor. I tend to believe carapace is a little better, because while you draw fire your teammates can race in and start attacking even before you die.
It does work.. the few times when the people on the 3am server actually allow me putting sensory down first, we've won to the dismay of the entire marine team and a few of the aliens. Go there if you don't believe me, ask Spool, he'll tell you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it is counterable by the cheap scanner sweep. If the skulks do not run from their hiding places, they die, and if they run, the marines get where they are going. Either way, marines-1 aliens-0.
This is true for the first single marine. <b>IF</b> the enemy is competent they <b>CAN</b> scan.
When <b>ONE</b> marine squad has made it accross the map (scanning all the way if necessary) you will find it nigh on impossible to clean them from a held location. They do two such forays (one two each empty hive) and you've lost the game.
If they're in-competent well, you're all kickass skulks anyway right so its not important you can just munch em.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Its counterable because, supposedly, you can take 4 skulks on at the same time.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I cannot take 4 non-carapiced skulks down at the same time on my own. <b>HOWEVER</b> with competent marines at my side I AM NEVER ON MY OWN. Four skulks without carapice charing two marines who're defending a location? They'll scream for backup the second they see you and kill two minimum befor you reach them.
Even if by some miracle you kill two marines without loss you're going to munch a blind spot in the TF, THEN munch down the TF <b>THEN </b> take out the phase gate all without carapice and all the while with marines leaping through the phase and trying to kill you?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It does work.. the few times when the people on the 3am server actually allow me putting sensory down first, we've won to the dismay of the entire marine team and a few of the aliens. Go there if you don't believe me, ask Spool, he'll tell you. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have a better idea, you come to www.warserver.com IP:212.42.1.203:27015 Come along at around midnight UK time on a saturday and play on the alien team against the regulars. Just make sure you've got some of the FSA, LoG or eH boys against you (preferably cookie, myself or AngryMonkey as com) and just try sensory first.
The point is sensory has a counter that you can do <b>NOTHING</b> about, if they scan you cloak is useless. Unless they're doing a very un-usual build order (HMG rush, or something) then they'll already have an obs so each scan costs 1 res.
If you have carapice it still works if they know where you are, if you hide 4 skulks around a corner they still have to come within 1m of you to shoot at you.
BlueGhost
Defense Chamber...
A skulk tries to hide somewhere and hopes not to get killed (depending on which hive this can be really easy or really hard) Then when a marine(s) come he warns the entire team then attempts to kill marine(s).
Movement Chamber...
Same thing but at über speeds! ...or quieter.
Sensory Chamber...
A skulk hides anywhere (good for hives that are either really open or you just want to kill the marine(s) really fast) What you need to do is sit either one the ceiling or floor and when they start to build or run into you, you CHOMP! The first chomp knocks the marine's HUD off to the side and the second bite kills him. If there were many marines you do the standard running and running and running like a constipated weiner dog while biting to mop them up. Rinse Reuse Recycle.
If for whatever reason any of the skulks (as in the one with carapAce, celerity/silence, or cloak) dies the rest of the skulks that were called in for help will clean house. Marines down 20 or 42 (phase and RT) resources aliens still have 2 clear hives.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have a better idea, you come to www.warserver.com IP:212.42.1.203:27015 Come along at around midnight UK time on a saturday and play on the alien team against the regulars. Just make sure you've got some of the FSA, LoG or eH boys against you (preferably cookie, myself or AngryMonkey as com) and just try sensory first.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I can try but I live in the States so I don't think I will ping that good...
I just checked the 3am new york server the quality of play on that server was horrific. If you want specifics please ask.
BlueGhost
Also, scanner sweep does not uncloak you. Another thing is that the hive won't need healing after v1.04 because hives now spawn with 100% hp.
Yea, you might need DCs for fades, but its not really needed IMO.
I would write more, but I gtg.
Well Ok...
Defense Chamber Skulk...
Hiding spot gets revealed by scan, skulk calls for backup skulk, dies, other skulks take back hive.
Movement Chamber Skulk...
Same as above.
Sensory Chamber Skulk...
Same as above.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just checked the 3am new york server the quality of play on that server was horrific.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It must not have had regulars in it, usually it's pretty good.
--Edit--
On a completely unrelated note, can anyone tell me why this forum thing won't let me put my avatar on? It says "You are not allowed to upload that type of file as an avatar" even though it is a 64x64 .jpg file?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just checked the 3am new york server the quality of play on that server was horrific. If you want specifics please ask<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, please I'm interested to hear, Oh and by the way, were the people playing in the server at the time all mysteriously named "NSPlayer"?
Thanks for the invite to your server, but as a lazy, fat, unmotivated American, I cannot convert the time change correctly, and as an American, my skills are not up to par with your 1337-ness.
- Torgo
(I put my name here because apparently the average person cannot figure out my name from the stated name directly to the left of the post)
All of the chambers can make useful first upgrades. DEFENSE is ideal for the armor bonus and taking out fortified installations, as someone pointed out. However SENSORY is very good for preventing those installations from being built in the first place. A skulk's ambush ability is increased vastly by being able to hide anywhere and out in the open. Without sensory, you're forced to hide in predictable locations. As for MOVEMENT, it's all about celerity. Defense may mean you can take more hits, but celerity means you'll get hit less and be able to close MUCH faster. In the hands of a good skulk, I'd say it's actually better than carapace.
So why is defense popular? Because no matter how much you suck, you can get some benefit from defense upgrades. Carapace and redemption basically protect players from their own lack of skill.
This is just simply WRONG. 'Impossible' to take down a phase gate? Then how can I and so many others have done the impossible many times? The art to eating a phase gate is your level of alertness and your evasive manuevering once a marine phases in. I have killed plenty of phase busy gates as a non-upgraded basic skulk.
You people who constantly make assertions like this need to shut up and learn more about the rest of the world before you make such a claim. It is NOT worthless simply because your playing style is too rigid to take advantage of its qualities.
Ha true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is NOT worthless simply because your playing style is too rigid to take advantage of its qualities. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, go to the "Fellow Aliens" thread...same thing but in there it was called "close mindedness." Go there and wake up to the fact that you can win with anything, you can win with no chambers if you wanted too.
I swore I'd never do this, but I'll give it one more shot (throwing in my two cents to this age-old argument AGAIN, that is).
There are two reasons why cloaking is not viable, compared with carapace:
1: The major claimed advantage of cloaking is that you can set up ambushes far easier and stop the marines from expanding out of their base. This does not work. It has been proven time and time again that if the marines truly want to leave their base, they will. Ambush tactics are delaying tactics at best - sooner or later you have to chase down and kill the marines. Cloaking will not help you then. The only time I've seen the kharaa successfully contain a marine team was when we had four or five excellent fighters, the marines were merely average, and we were <i>very</i> well co-ordinated. Cloaking had nothing to do with it.
There are several reasons why cloaking (and ambushes in general) do not work.
1a: Once the marines realise that cloaking is being used they will react accordingly and use scanner sweeps and movement tracking. They will open fire on obvious hiding spots, looking for cloaked aliens. The advantage is soon lost.
1b: Effective ambushes require a huge degree of co-ordination between teammates, and all the skulks working together. This rarely happens, except for clan games (granted, it may be a viable tactic in such a clanwar)
1c: If marines slip through the net, they have to be tracked and killed. To do so, you have to keep moving. This prevents you from cloaking. You might argue that you'd wait in ambush in locations where you think the marine is going to be moving, but doing so means you are only guarding one single area instead of covering a wider area by patrol. You are less likely to detect new intrusions, and you might miss your quarry completely without even knowing.
1d: Ambushes are a defensive tactic, and playing defensively never works. If you are defensive, you are not moving out to attack the enemy. What happens if they secure a resource nozzle? Are you going to wait outside it for them to come to you? Kharaa or marine, time and time again it has been proven that if you hole yourself up in your base <i>you will lose</i>. You can only win by attacking, not by defending.
Now, the other major problem with cloaking:
2: Carapace <i>greatly</i> increases the combat endurance of skulks (ie, how long they can stay in the fight for without dying\leaving to regen). This means skulks have a much better chance against marines, and have more time when attacking marine installations. Carapace is NOT the refuge of the skilless n00b, it is ESSENTIAL for anyone serious about melee combat, and it's vital for destroying marine hardware. And, as I've stressed before, only by destroying marine hardware can you defeat your enemy! Yes, it is POSSIBLE to take out marine bases without carapace, but it's considerably easier with. Cloaking offers no advantage in this regard, and that's a serious deficiency.
2a: Fades. Fades need carapace. Fades are required to combat HA\HMG, and a fade without carapace is like a piece of crepe paper in the rain. They're expensive investments, almost as expensive as HA\HMG marines, and as such they need all the protection they can get.
2b: Before you say it, a fade can't expect to get the drop on a HA\HMG by using cloaking and expect to live. They'd either have to be very, VERY good or the marine absolutely terrible, or both. Yes, it's POSSIBLE to pull it off. It's also possible to play one handed and blindfolded. It's possible, but it's unnecesarily difficult and offers no real reward.
If you can offer actual proof of cloaking tactics being reliably, repeatably effective (demos, for preference, but anecdotes will probably have to do) then I'm all ears. And before you start whining about "being more open minded" please understand that I'm not categorically labelling sensory first as a bucket of crap, I'm explaining in detail why it isn't viable. Don't tell me I can't walk through walls because I don't have an open mind about it. Oh, and please actually READ what I've just written and refute it, instead of just ignoring it and regurgitating the same tired arguments because someone's disagreeing.
These arguments seem rather "dumb" and seem to be based wholly on "heart", "feelings", calling people "close-minded" and are about "cool" or "right" (ex. "Kharaa are supposed to do this and that... blaa, blaa.") ways of play. Do whatever you want with your chambers, just don't terrorize the servers I'm in by building sensory first <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Naturally, the actual killing process where the marines shoot you is left completely out at these theories. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Like i said a few posts before, if you are cloaked on the floor and a marine runs into you, bite once, the marines hud is knocked to the side, bite twice, dead marine. If there are any buddies then you simply run around like you would if you had carapace, but only with less health.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Base destruction ideas are left to the level of "Go there and take the TF and the PG out and kill 4 marines without carapace"-level<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
--Edit--
On a completely unrelated note, can anyone tell me why this forum thing won't let me put my avatar on? It says "You are not allowed to upload that type of file as an avatar" even though it is a 64x64 .jpg file. Anyone?
If everyone was doing their jobs right, then nothing would have been built (see my post about camping the two hives.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->which pretty much equals "If you wan't to win in NS, be a good player" in their level of usefulness.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. Sensory first is not for the noobits and idoits, that is what defense chambers are for.
I find it extremely odd coming from one who wants to defend a new strategy to take his "proof" from HISTORY. The game changes: what was maybe in 1.0 isn't there anymore. What happened in the past is no proof nor relevant at all either.
No, you cannot evade the importance of troughout experimental research with theories. I'm sorry, but that's not how it goes. Theories are well, but they must also apply in a real game to be of any use. Unfortunately that's not how it goes in NS community apparantly... You can always sacrifice the other peoples game for your sensory-research, but that would be just too immoral and vile. People don't mind if you do DC-research however... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
--Edit--
I still need help with that avatar thing...Any help would be appreciated.
No, that merely proves that sensory USED to work, before marines learned to adapt to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Like i said a few posts before, if you are cloaked on the floor and a marine runs into you, bite once, the marines hud is knocked to the side, bite twice, dead marine.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not as simple as that. You often still have to deal with turret fire, and gunfire from other marines.
Although cloaking <i>would</i> remove the problems inovlved with closing the distance to your target...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If there are any buddies then you simply run around like you would if you had carapace, but only with less health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and without carapace you have less of a change of surviving the marine's buddies.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
If everyone was doing their jobs right, then nothing would have been built (see my post about camping the two hives.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but you're assuming that everyone does their job right on a pub server. They don't (well at least not all the game). You can't honestly expect to prevent the marines from setting up any outposts, that's just naive. At the very least, ambush tactics only have to make one mistake for the marines to get out and set up a base which can't be removed, and no tactic is executed perfectly every single time. There's no safety net for if you stuff up, in other words
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Yep. Sensory first is not for the noobits and idoits, that is what defense chambers are for.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Saying DCs are for newbies is just as blanket as saying SCs are for newbies, and just as pointless.
Incidentally...
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=18012&st=105' target='_blank'>The Fellow Aliens Thread</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True...the hive will heal itself, but EXTREMELY slowly. Throwing up 3 defense chambers under it really speeds things up, as well as heal spraying the hive while you wait for res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but you see, what use are those def chambers after there done? oh yeah/ NONE!@ cuase your troops should be anywere but at your hives, cuase you should have the marines occupied at other locations trying to survive against a foe they can't even see!
heck most of the time no one builds SC anymore! It sux, becuase SC can save alot of lives and cuase way more havoc for the troops, so what they can use sensory, that doesn't nessarliy mean they see you!
That is, if you are trying to prove you have a valid strategy instead of converting people to your own "preferences". In which case you should highlight the fact you don't have any proof, but an opinion about the issue (which can be shrugged off). I do enjoy sensory every now and then, but usually our team loses due to demoralized people or because the sensory options aren't as useful (strong) or as easy to use as DC ones. I think it goes like this...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
How do you define the "old days?" Are the "old days" pre-release or immediate post-release? Why I ask this is because I've been playing NS since its release I dont remember Sens being the uber-leet chamber you imply it is. In fact I remember Def being more viable than Sens just as it is now.
And for the record, I don't care if you put up Granny's Patented Chili Recipe Chamber first, as long as I can eat faces. <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
*106.7 kilobytes, actually.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but you see, what use are those def chambers after there done? oh yeah/ NONE!@ cuase your troops should be anywere but at your hives, cuase you should have the marines occupied at other locations trying to survive against a foe they can't even see!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, when you have two hives up and have severely wounded fades returning from combat, having three defense chambers at the hive GREATLY boosts the healing, shortening the time the fades are out of action and allowing them to return to combat as soon as possible.
Pege:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oooh, but the difference lies in the fact that DCs are being "tested" all the time (people use them) and judging by the way things are, they are a good bet if you want to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's fair enough, but so far there haven't been any cloaking tactics brought up on the forums which don't have flaws in them which can be picked up before even trying them out. If there are any viable sensory tactics I'd love to hear them.
Crisquo:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I can only come up with two conclusions...One is that I have a problem, or two everyone else has a problem. Because everyone but a select few people all having a problem is unlikely it can be logically deduced that the 5 or 6 have the problem. The problem you ask? The problem is being really good and being able to win with defense, movement, and sensory as a starting chamber. So I'm going to apologize for everyone who ever used sensory and won. We are sorry for being good.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not even coherent, so don't try to be witty. It isn't working.