1.04e - Why The 19% Increase In Fade Cost Is Just
JRock
Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 10032Members
Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 10032Members
<div class="IPBDescription">going to hurt the aliens' early midgame</div> A 19% increase in the cost of Fades does nothing to help the late-middle to early endgame where Fades are the big issue, because by then the resources are flowing steadily and ten more RCs isn't going to make a whole lot of difference in how many Fades there are outside the Marine base. All this does it hurt the aliens EVEN FURTHER during the midgame when they are normally first able to get Fade but now it will take even longer giving the Marines EVEN MORE time to research HMG/JP/HA.
The Carapace change is more accurate and closer to what is needed to fix Fades, and that change is welcome.
But the cost change in Fades only removes all the exciting and dangerous times when aliens have just gotten the second hive and everyone has just gone from 33/33 to ~38/66 or 40/66 and is waiting for those last few RCs to go Fade ASAP because there are Marines starting to kill one of the two hives with HMGs (usually researched by the time a 2nd hive is up). Now the rush to evolve to Fade before the hive dies is no longer available as an option to the aliens because they will now need 54/66. Also the Marines will have a much easier time holding the second hive since no aliens could possibly have gone Fade during the two minutes the second hive was alive, so there aren't any rogue Fades adding tense excitement to the game in an attempt to secure a second hive again.
I guess I'll just be playing Marines a lot more once 1.04e is on the servers I play on. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Currently (I'm talking servers with competent players, not ones full of people who don't know how to play), on most servers, Marines already have a good advantage in the early to early-mid game. With the cost change of Fades, that advantage has been furthered because the effective average time before Marines will be facing Fades has increased by several minutes. It is also an issue because on good servers (servers with smart Marines anyway) the Marines have upgraded weapons and have set up a phase near each of the two empty hives so as soon as they figure out which one the gorge is trying to build in, they start attacking it. In some cases the skulks are able to hold off the Marines long enough for the gorge to have the hive completed and this is when CURRENTLY people start going Fade ASAP if they have the resources (and as I mentioned earlier most skulks are around 38-40/66 ). This is all taken away by increasing the cost 10 RCs, or 19% above the original cost of the Fade.
Now Marines will have a much easier time taking down one of the two hives.
This will, I believe, drastically increase the number of Marine wins because the early to early-mid game is the most crucial time of the game and you just gave the Marines a BIG opening.
Also, the cost change doesn't even address the issue with Marines on the losing side of the game (when they hold only one hive and the aliens have had two for most of the game and they're all Fades now regardless of cost) facing Fades that are so hard to kill and have their powerful acid rocket and move too quickly to chase after and kill with the LMG because they run away when they're low on health and a marine can't get them.
So why exactly was this cost change put into effect?
The Carapace change is more accurate and closer to what is needed to fix Fades, and that change is welcome.
But the cost change in Fades only removes all the exciting and dangerous times when aliens have just gotten the second hive and everyone has just gone from 33/33 to ~38/66 or 40/66 and is waiting for those last few RCs to go Fade ASAP because there are Marines starting to kill one of the two hives with HMGs (usually researched by the time a 2nd hive is up). Now the rush to evolve to Fade before the hive dies is no longer available as an option to the aliens because they will now need 54/66. Also the Marines will have a much easier time holding the second hive since no aliens could possibly have gone Fade during the two minutes the second hive was alive, so there aren't any rogue Fades adding tense excitement to the game in an attempt to secure a second hive again.
I guess I'll just be playing Marines a lot more once 1.04e is on the servers I play on. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Currently (I'm talking servers with competent players, not ones full of people who don't know how to play), on most servers, Marines already have a good advantage in the early to early-mid game. With the cost change of Fades, that advantage has been furthered because the effective average time before Marines will be facing Fades has increased by several minutes. It is also an issue because on good servers (servers with smart Marines anyway) the Marines have upgraded weapons and have set up a phase near each of the two empty hives so as soon as they figure out which one the gorge is trying to build in, they start attacking it. In some cases the skulks are able to hold off the Marines long enough for the gorge to have the hive completed and this is when CURRENTLY people start going Fade ASAP if they have the resources (and as I mentioned earlier most skulks are around 38-40/66 ). This is all taken away by increasing the cost 10 RCs, or 19% above the original cost of the Fade.
Now Marines will have a much easier time taking down one of the two hives.
This will, I believe, drastically increase the number of Marine wins because the early to early-mid game is the most crucial time of the game and you just gave the Marines a BIG opening.
Also, the cost change doesn't even address the issue with Marines on the losing side of the game (when they hold only one hive and the aliens have had two for most of the game and they're all Fades now regardless of cost) facing Fades that are so hard to kill and have their powerful acid rocket and move too quickly to chase after and kill with the LMG because they run away when they're low on health and a marine can't get them.
So why exactly was this cost change put into effect?
Comments
And if they've focused on HMG, I'm not scared of marines. HMG/LA does NOT SCARE Fades.
Also, the 2nd hive takes a good 10+ minutes to be completed on any map on any server with 5+ players on the team and only one gorge (IOW, even in the most optimal conditions).
This is because NORMALLY the gorge will cap a resource node or two first to help speed the resource income, and may even drop a DC to help skulks against marines by allowing them basic carapace. (And damn carapace makes an AWESOME difference for skulks - as a Marine I hate it so much <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> - (this is a good thing) ).
And the reason this change is going to win Marines more games is because of the chain reaction effect - Fades won't be evolving as soon in the game, therefore Marines can more easily kill the new 2nd hive before the alien team is strong enough to defend against the teched-up Marines, therefore the gorge just wasted 80Rcs (a large time investment in the early game), therefore they are now set back a massive amount of time and resources all the while the Marines have been expanding and conquering.
See changes need a LOT of thought behind them, especially in the after effects and how they will affect other things in the delicate game balance.
Just my opinion though
And if they've focused on HMG, I'm not scared of marines. HMG/LA does NOT SCARE Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're right hmg/la doesn't scare fades....lmg/la RAPES fades when you have all 3 upgrades in each area(bullets and armor)...and what is lost from the marines? nothing...the marine that rushed the fade and emptied his clip respawns with his fully upgraded lmg and 110armor. the fade now has to come up with another 58 res (54 for fade and 2 for each upgrade)
therefore hmg+full upgrades+la=fades better be scared
all I have to say is "run away fade....run away"
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
in larger games you get double res (+2 instead of +1)
I dont like small games....they take too damn long
I'm gonna take a stab at using logic here, so bear with me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Maybe, just maybe its because the devs think the fade is undercosted for its effectivesness and have decided a cost of 54 resources more accurately reflects its abilities. Is that such a radical idea to take on board ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All this does it hurt the aliens EVEN FURTHER during the midgame when they are normally first able to get Fade but now it will take even longer giving the Marines EVEN MORE time to research HMG/JP/HA.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
'EVEN FURTHER' then what precisely ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But the cost change in Fades only removes all the exciting and dangerous times when aliens have just gotten the second hive and everyone has just gone from 33/33 to ~38/66 or 40/66 and is waiting for those last few RCs to go Fade ASAP because there are Marines starting to kill one of the two hives with HMGs (usually researched by the time a 2nd hive is up)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the res cost for fades has been increased, won't that make it even <b>more</b> exciting and dangerous ?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also, the cost change doesn't even address the issue with Marines on the losing side of the game (when they hold only one hive and the aliens have had two for most of the game and they're all Fades now regardless of cost) facing Fades that are so hard to kill and have their powerful acid rocket and move too quickly to chase after and kill with the LMG because they run away when they're low on health and a marine can't get them.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really do not understand this paragraph. You describe a scenario where you state the marines are on the 'losing' side, the aliens have enough res to go fade immediately after dieing and the aliens have had 2 hives for most of the game. In that scenario, the marines are losing in every possible way. What issue is there ? Let me put it this way. A LMG 1-on-1 with a fade and winning is as momentous a victory as a skulk killing a HA marine, and therefore should be just as rare.
I don't think you have much of an arguement, and I disagree with you. This however, ticked me off.....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I guess I'll just be playing Marines a lot more once 1.04e is on the servers I play on. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, you play on the side which you think is the most positively imbalanced (In your opinion) ? Sportmanship at its best eh ? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
And if they've focused on HMG, I'm not scared of marines. HMG/LA does NOT SCARE Fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you're right hmg/la doesn't scare fades....lmg/la RAPES fades when you have all 3 upgrades in each area(bullets and armor)...and what is lost from the marines? nothing...the marine that rushed the fade and emptied his clip respawns with his fully upgraded lmg and 110armor. the fade now has to come up with another 58 res (54 for fade and 2 for each upgrade)
therefore hmg+full upgrades+la=fades better be scared
all I have to say is "run away fade....run away"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They wont have full upgrades by then however.
They will have HMG and nothing more.
Any way, a resource change for the fades does help in some ways, at least it will make rts more important to aliens now. The dev team is probably trying to force the aliens to get more rts and to actually defend them. So even at 2 hives, the aliens will not have enough resources to have half the team evolve into fades at the same time.
Hard to say what the results will be like until you play on the 1.04e server.
Please note that it is nearly impossible to totally balance every thing in a game like Natural Selection. Everyone has their own ideas on how the game should be tweaked, however, that doesn't necessarily mean the ideas are worth implementing. There are just so many different events/circumstances/situations or what ever that each player can come across in a game of NS, it is impossible to categorize every thing. As long as the dev team think the game is balanced and there is a happy community playing the game, then it is fine.
WHAT!?!? And just HOW much are you spending here? A fair bit more than the 58 (including Cara & Celerity/Cloak rez for the Fade, tell ya that.
Yes, the Fade is a one off, if he dies, he has to spend it all again (the upgrades for the marines stay) but one marine with HMG/LA + Upgrades doesn't scare me, neither does 2. Because I WILL get the drop on them, I DO have the speed to slice the first one up before he even fires, so I only have to deal with one. WHo won't kill a Fade.
Three? Sure, I'm scared. But then the comm has spent 75 rez (not including upgrades, for above reasons) more than my 58, and I'd expect them to win. And that's only if it's decent marines. I'd like to think of myself as a good alien (no-one should ever be able to decide that for themselves, but I stay in the top 1/3rd of the scoreboard unless I'm Gorge, even then sometimes - So I'll allow myself to be slightly self congratulatory there) and even 3, well placed is scaring me, but not to the point of aborting my attack altogether.
Right, reading through this, I have to say, <b>this is NOT a flame, and I don't want it to be taken as arrogant as it may come across</b> I just want things to be fun. for everone involved. Yeah, I'd have fun slicing up marines until armageddon, but the marine players out there want to have fun too. And it's a damn more interesting to die, after a long running fight, with marines taking a few losses, getting paranoid, and finally blowing me away, than Fade meets LA's. La's die.
You sir deserve an Ono's of the month.
That is the best statement I have heard regarding the whole balencing debate. (I'd add it to my sig but it's too big)
Guys it doesn't matter that NS isn't completely balenced. Just play the game and enjoy it. I've had good fun even when losing to fades. And lets just face it
Life (unlike what we may like to believe) is NOT balenced
And that is why I disagreed with the whole thing of smacking Fades too much with the nerf stick. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Cry me a effing river...
only if your comm is we-tarded
you should have AT LEAST level 2 upgrades before fades come out
Most comms won't have level 2 both by the time Fades arrive, especially not level 2 both AND hmg's.
Most comms won't have level 2 both by the time Fades arrive, especially not level 2 both AND hmg's.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
all I'm sayin is "it doesn't take hmg's to drop fades"
ONE clip from a lmg will waste a fade...and yes it ALL depends on the skill level of the marine and the fade...but fact REAMINS ONE marine CAN drop ONE fade with a SINGLE clip from a lmg
you may be the best fade in the game...I'm saying if you do the math the lmg is lethal to fades
with 1.04e marines JUST might have both level 2 upgrades(120 res) and upgraded armory(35 res) before fades come out...that remains to be seen
edit:no flame taken <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The trend with the recent changes (except for siege) certainly show a favoring of the marines. THe Gl getting a huge boost, carapace nerf, umbra nerf, so on.
People are aleady discouraged to play as alien and this is only going to make it more so.
Now if this is because of a resource structure change, indeed it may make sense, but unless that change is going in with the fade price change, I think it's going to be detrimental to the game.
That's assuming you never miss once. In which case, the Fade is a acid spamming spoon (I nearly only claw, so people miss a lot more, I guess) or you're aimbotting.
(No, I wasn't accusing anyone - But that's teh only way you're going to get 100% accuracy against anything in NS)
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm</a>
Let's look up how many bullets it takes to kill a fade.. hrm. If your comm is we-tarded.. he wouldn't have upgraded you guys at all, and if the alien was smart (there has been an armor% reduction for all aliens with carapace, and if he has carapace he HAS to have defense nodes nearby or must run back to a hive to heal).. my gosh! you're right! It takes 77 bullets from the lmg to kill a fade! What if your comm was smart and remembered that the arms lab upgrades cost next to nothing (he upgrades weapons just ONCE). Oh my, Mr. Nasty fade has to take 66 shells from the lmg to die. That's low enough for the lmg/pistol to KILL a fade if you hit them with every bullet.
What if your comm has half the brain god gave a goat? You'd have at least level 2 weapons AND armor (meaning you'll live long enough to empty an entire LMG before dying), which means Mr. nasty nasty fade takes 62 bullets to die. That's a little more than 2 1/2 clips from 2 marines.. What if the fade takes damage from other people while you are shooting him? That's right, 3 vanilla marines (without any upgrades, with upgrades they'd just be deadlier), if they're smart and don't run in a cluster shooting each other in the back, they can kill a fade before he even realizes he is getting shot. WOW! Three freshly spawned marines just made the aliens waste 58 resources! They deserve many many cookies. *sarcasm*
If you can't kill a fade, don't blame the fade, you're at fault. (sidenote, I only play fade if I am not the gorge, and that never happens)
[edit] my gosh! I had a lot of typos. If anyone finds any I did not locate and fix, you can PM me and I'll fix them, please just don't flame me for bad typing early in the morning, mmkay?[/edit]
Marine's are still losing.
Mainly because Marine's still can't kill Skulks with their LMG.
Oh no! Not that!
I think you just about proved the point about mid-game imbalances. Aliens go to Fade far too quickly in my opinion, while the marines are left behind. Remember, the mid-game is supposed to be the core of the game - the exciting battle to take or hold that second hive. The marines -should- have HMG/JP/HA by the time the aliens have Fades! Otherwise, the battles are a slaughter.
And don't forget, a HA/HMG marine is only super-effective against a Fade if he has all or most of his upgrades, which are probably not yet researched by mid-game. He may have HMG, but not any armor or weapon upgrades.
As for cost, lets do the math:
Arms Lab - 50 res
Level 1, 2 weapons (and level 1 armor) - 80 res (130 total) - At this point, marines are really chewing up the skulks, and often have this at, or near, the time fades start showing up. Also, marines will often sacrifice themselves in rushing the fade, so that friends can rush it too and kill it. It costs nothing to the marines and the comm if a LA/LMG dies. While it will cost the aliens alot of res if it is early / midgame. Also, for this 140 res, the entire team has been upgraded. While this is just slightly more than the cost of two fades, which when killed, are gone.
Level 3 weapons - 60 res (190 total) - Often, this is researching just as fades become a menace. The marines sit back and just defend what they have, with the aid of turrets. Marines often rush fades, making them need to retreat and heal. By the time the fade is back, the marine is ready to roll again, for no res. Once the level 3 is up, marines have no trouble killing aliens, for no extra cost for HMG's or HA. As long as marines stick together, aliens aren't so scary anymore. In fact, LMG is alot more accurate at long range, so 2 L3 LMG marines can really keep the fades away from base, while the marines calmly finish their other upgrades, and then start to push back the fades and then kill a hive.
Slowly, over time, the marines realised that aliens are making good use of carapace, so they are using level 3 weapons to match it. Reducing carapace, IMHO, will just turn marines into aliens shredding machines. What they are doing is securing one hive, getting maybe one or two more res, and that's it.
With phasegates and turrets in place, it doesn't take much to defend 2 primary locations, while the comm sits back and upgrades. Aliens on the other hand do not become more powerful over time. Fades remain the same, while marines become more and more powerful. Aliens need to end the game early if they want to win, and marines need to upgrade if they want to win. As it stands, marines are learning how to upgrade faster, thusly making marine wins not only feasible, but just as common as alien wins.
IMHO, 1.04d had it right and had made the game very balanced, while 1.04e might ruin the nice balance we had achieved.
Also, as a sidenote, to defend balance changes based on bad commanding isn't something we should be doing. We should at least assume a commander who has half a brain.
Ravlen
Cry me a effing river...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Excellent rebuttal. :rolleyes:
Anyway...
I don't think the tweak is a bad idea, but they should have made the carapace tweak and playtested that first before tweaking Fade cost at the same time. But who knows, it might work out ok.
I'm not sure what servers you have been playing on, but I still notice that aliens win 2/3 times unless a well organized hive rush is done early.
To me, the hive rush is a despertae measure and really kills the game. The game should concentrate more on taking and keeping nozzles and less on the hives, but because alines can get a second hive very quickly in the game, and thus get fades soon after the game usually turns to the aliens in all but the higher end number of players.
I think resouce costs and scaling are the main factor here in the difference. In small games a TF is essential for holding the base because you need marines out <i>actually doing things</i>. In larger games you can bypass such items and use marines that spawn to hold the base. Since the base cost of items do not change, the upgrades and additions become more economical with larger groups when it costs 1/(n+1) where n is the number of marines. Since the resources scale based on the numbers, why don't the costs? It might actually be advantageous to have fewer people so you can save resources for upgrades.. on either side.
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/kitsune/ns-stats.htm</a>
- kitsune's data is not 1.04e accurate for the purposes of this discussion.
Weakening the midgame of the aliens is well...THE WHOLE POINT and is warranted.
For data updated for 1.04e, take a peek at <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=21&t=19891' target='_blank'>this article</a> and its accompanying spread sheet.
<b>IT'S NOT</b>
It's supposed to be for the fight for the 3rd hive, so that you CAN end the game!
When the marines get HA and HMG, they're at the TOP of their Tech-Bonsai Tree. Aliens are only halfway.
Most of you are saying 'omg fade gto nefrdd!!!1 omg omg thas s0 cheep!!!11' beacuse you've been trained that hive 3 is absolutely optional, because of the severe balance problem. Most games will end without the aliens even SEEING the 3rd hive.
This only stops that.
And they're right... HMG and HA doesn't just 'happen'. The Marines actually have to work for it. The aliens get it along with a crap load of other options just because ONE PLAYER sat around on his **** for three minutes.