Fades,
Beetlejuice
Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7542Members
Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7542Members
<div class="IPBDescription">for those who are still afraid of them</div> Ok, here are some numbers about fades and ha/hmg marines in 1.04e for all those who write about overpowered fades.
Lets assume the "balanced" 2 hive situation.
Costs:
Fully upgraded hmg/ha marine costs 50 rp. Fade with carapace 3 and adrenaline 3 costs 58 rp (so ha/hmg is cheaper, for those who allready can't follow me).
Hitpoints:
Upgraded ha marine has 680 hitpoints. Carapace 3 Fade has 632 hitpoints. (so ha/hmg marine has more, just to be sure you understand)
Dmg Output:
marines:
280 dmg/sec for 150 bullets or 12,5 sec. Clip size 150, reload aprox 7 sec.
fades:
90 dmg/sec for 5 rockets or 3,3 sec. Clip size 5, reload aprox 6 sec.
So while the marine needs 2,25 sec or 27 bullets (means he can kill 5,5 fades with one clip without reloading) to kill the fade, the fade needs 7,3 sec or 11,3 rockets to kill the marine. But wait, 11,3 rockets with 5 clipsize, that means 2 times reloading for 6 secs. So he needs 19,3 sec to kill the marine.
So what was the problem with fades again? Hit and run tactics? Well, fades are faster, but when they start running because they have to reload adrenaline you have at least 6 sec time to let someone weld the few scratches you got from them while they have to find a def tower first to heal up, which takes longer as well (remember def tower change?).
Lets assume the "balanced" 2 hive situation.
Costs:
Fully upgraded hmg/ha marine costs 50 rp. Fade with carapace 3 and adrenaline 3 costs 58 rp (so ha/hmg is cheaper, for those who allready can't follow me).
Hitpoints:
Upgraded ha marine has 680 hitpoints. Carapace 3 Fade has 632 hitpoints. (so ha/hmg marine has more, just to be sure you understand)
Dmg Output:
marines:
280 dmg/sec for 150 bullets or 12,5 sec. Clip size 150, reload aprox 7 sec.
fades:
90 dmg/sec for 5 rockets or 3,3 sec. Clip size 5, reload aprox 6 sec.
So while the marine needs 2,25 sec or 27 bullets (means he can kill 5,5 fades with one clip without reloading) to kill the fade, the fade needs 7,3 sec or 11,3 rockets to kill the marine. But wait, 11,3 rockets with 5 clipsize, that means 2 times reloading for 6 secs. So he needs 19,3 sec to kill the marine.
So what was the problem with fades again? Hit and run tactics? Well, fades are faster, but when they start running because they have to reload adrenaline you have at least 6 sec time to let someone weld the few scratches you got from them while they have to find a def tower first to heal up, which takes longer as well (remember def tower change?).
Comments
They're much faster than HMG, however, which is what slows marines down.
And yes, claws are FAR superior to acid. In every single way apart from range.
(Yes, if you're lucky, you can chop up two marines with one slash. So it does have a splash, kinda) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
This new patch does precisely that and I heartily approve. It remains to be seen if the increase is too much however, in retrospect 50 or 52 seems better.
BTW, sHot, fades do 80 damage with swipe, its every 1/2 second or so and takes a relatively minimal amount of energy. Carapace/Celerity melee fades are more fun, more scary, cause more disruption and just as effective as Carapace/Adrenaline acid spamming fades.
Try it, you might like it <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You assume wrong. Claws do 160 dmg per second, which is still less than the hmg AND is no ranged attack. Which means while a marine can still kill the fade in 2,25 sec, the fade now needs 4,25 sec (still nearly twice as much) PLUS the time to get into melee range PLUS the time to STAY in melee range to hit with those 8,5 claw attacks he needs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And fades are a lot faster (both normal walking & blink) and can regen themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have never seen a fade with carapace regen themselves, you obviously never played alien in your life.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Or they just walk up to a hive or d chamber while a HA guy needs to shout "weld me" for 10 minutes before someone finally welds him.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you said, alien needs d chamber or hive, ha guy needs someone with welder. Only difference is that welder is more mobile and heals up much faster.
QUOTE
And fades are a lot faster (both normal walking & blink) and can regen themselves.
I have never seen a fade with carapace regen themselves, you obviously never played alien in your life.
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He never said the fade had carapace, he merely said they <b>can</b> regen themselves. Obviously that would be at the expense of carapace.
So you ASSUMED wrong about what I was talking about.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Fades 1-on-1 with a HA/HMG win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh really?
Fades have blink. Mobility-wise, Fades beat hmg/ha marines hands down. The rest has yet to be seen because I haven't tried any of the 1.04x patches.
If I am going to do some hit and run tactics versus ha marines I try to go celerity and carapace or celerity and regeneration. Getting away FAST is a life saver <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
If my skillz were good enough I'd dare blink into close combat with a marine, then blink away again before they could manage to gun me down. The blinking is baffling me greatly though, sometimes I end up facing a wall and sort of ruining my surprise attack greatly, other times I cannot get the darn blink engine to rev up when I desperately needs to get away again. I sure hope 1.1 will include some adjustments of blink so that is easier to use in more locations on the maps.
Then I think we will see a lot more fades hurling themselves at their foes without relent, and trying to get away when it's getting too hot by a swift little blink.
I tend to favour
QUOTE
And fades are a lot faster (both normal walking & blink) and can regen themselves.
I have never seen a fade with carapace regen themselves, you obviously never played alien in your life.
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He never said the fade had carapace, he merely said they <b>can</b> regen themselves. Obviously that would be at the expense of carapace.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
but a fade with regen is weak if he's exposed to HMG fire...
Agreed. But numbers do give a rough idea to how balanced the game is. For example, you would think some thing is wrong if each LMG bullet deals 25 damage in the new patch.
The fade will lose there is just no question about it. Either by dying or retreating to heal.
The fades tatics would be to make aggressive retreats manouvers by using the splash damage of acid rocket to hit the marine as he follows you round corners then when suffcient damage has been done and if you have enough health left yourself, charge and finish off with melee. Of course this is only if the marine is dumb enough to follow you alone long enough for this to be viable.
A skilled marine with lvl 3 upgrades and LMG/Pistol can take out a fade alone, even from full health in the right circumstances.
But i said that in my comparison the fade has carapace. Of course i could have made the comparison without carapace but then it would have been even more in favour to the marine (fade would have died in half of the time).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fades have blink. Mobility-wise, Fades beat hmg/ha marines hands down.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, i allready agreed to that fades are faster in my very first post (and i wish blink would be more reliable so that you could use it in combat as well). But mobility does not help you to kill a ha/hmg marine if he can counter your hit and run tactics with just welding up again. And for traveling around the map, where fades are really superiour to marines, they still have phase gates.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Actually I assumed they were more powerful than acid rockets.
So you ASSUMED wrong about what I was talking about.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So i assume i missunderstood you because my post was about fade vs hmg/ha comparison and not about fade swipe vs acid rocket comparison :o).
What happens is this find HA/HMG, Nicator casts 'umbra'.
I Spam acid rockets from the umbra and see how intelligent they are (if theyr'e really smart they leg it instantly and start begging for a GL).
After they've taken afew hits the second umbra is at their feet, the blink is on the cealing above them and the bites/claws killeth them mightily.
The really dumb thing about this thread is the situation in which you meet HA/HMG, if its 1 vs 1 you're practically laughin cos it means the marines are eather all newbs, or the com has given someone <b>59</b> res worth of kit and he's just wonderd off, wound him with acid rockets then blink off for a heal, he'll still be there when you get back.
HA/HMG is far from over-powerd against level 2 hive tech, without team mates wealding (working in a goup), it will be worn down slowly as it tries to move anywhere usefull.
Against aliens working in a group (umbra, web, heals ect) ONLY the very best team work will win, and HMG/HA is not it, you need afew HMG/HA's for damage output, you need 1 SHOTTY/HA for chasing them down and you need a GL with an un-wholy aim to kill that lurk with DIRECT HITS.
BlueGhost
When I play, I can beat HA/HMG with a fade. Thats because I keep my distance until I think a couple of swipes will finish the marine. I wll not engage a fresh HA at close range unless I have no option and then i'd apreciate some help.
Add a lerk and your laughing. Then I will comfortably rip HAs apart with swipe in the safety of umbra.
HA got a LA friend welding him ? You HAVE to kill that LA, be it by blinking in quickly, 2 swipes and blink out, or by acid splash. Its pointless trying to take the HA down until the LA is dead.
HA got a HA friend welding him. You need some friends of your own <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Regardless, direct comparisons are difficult. A better way of comparing things is by how flexible they are. A fade is far more tactically flexible then a HA/HMG is, and therefore should cost more. Hows that reasoning ?
Dragging myself back on-topic, i'd still be very much afraid of a fade, just be that much more proud when you manage to kill one.
...
HA/HMG is far from over-powerd against level 2 hive tech, without team mates wealding (working in a goup), it will be worn down slowly as it tries to move anywhere usefull.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you acutally assume that the aliens work in team with different classes but that the marines are to dumb to even weld themselves? Fair comparison.
Costs:
Fully upgraded hmg/ha marine costs 50 rp. Fade with carapace 3 and adrenaline 3 costs 58 rp (so ha/hmg is cheaper, for those who allready can't follow me).
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Try accounting for the fixed costs of lv3 armour and weapon upgrades, IPs, armoury, armoury upgrade, armslab, protolab, HA upgrade, obs, phase, any forms of defence, cost of dropping health mid-fight instead of free healing....
Aliens have fades well in advance of "Fully upgraded hmg/ha marines". You're talking about absolute highest marine tech. Versus alien tech that can be in play at the midgame point.
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Dmg Output:
marines:
280 dmg/sec for 150 bullets or 12,5 sec. Clip size 150, reload aprox 7 sec.
fades:
90 dmg/sec for 5 rockets or 3,3 sec. Clip size 5, reload aprox 6 sec.
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A ridiculous comparison, at anything other than point blank range you won't even land 50% of a HMG clip due to the firing spread. While acid rockets have perfect accuracy at any range, and large splash damage. At melee range claws throw off vision, deal significantly more damage than acid rockets, have no 'reload' time, and the fade's superior speed means they can basically dance circles around a HA/HMG at that range.
A decent fade can never be charged down by a HA/HMG, so the fade completely dictates the fight. With access to umbra they negate 75% of your HMG, ontop of the low accuracy due to spread. And can heal in the field with DCs or gorges. Fade support is superior to HA/HMG support, they have the mobility advantage, the range advantage and they are available earlier.
The fade is the all in one super-versatile combat unit. It owns at range, it owns up close, it's fast but it takes a beating, its effective in large areas or cramped hallways, against groups or individuals. It can hit and run and it can stand its ground. It can siege a base, and it can defend a location. In comparison to the marine tech, its only real weaknesses are its spawn time, which is much longer than it takes to get a HA/HMG back online, and its reliance on other classes. i.e. a marine group can be complete with just a load of HAs guys carying welders, and the comm on standby to drop things. Fade support can be superior to the marine support, but it requires people playing lurk/gorge onhand at the scene.
For 2 hive aliens, the use of fade lerk and gorge together gives you incredible power. I'm talking about offensive use of webbing from the gorge, heal spray and umbra to support the fade. With DC's and OT's being dropped behind your current position. This combo dominates at long and short range, offensively or defensively. Spines and acid rockets are so much more potent than the marine weapons for range attacks due to their accuracy, upclose a gorge can seriously abuse web, and getting that close simply allows a fade to pull the claws out.
HA/HMG's cannot go toe to toe with 2 hive aliens played well, you have to use GL's once they get that far. Or get lucky and nab a sneaky hive kill.
It is a balance, where luck and skill play their part. To effectively combat a group of fully upgraded HA marines that totes the latest hardware, you do need the latest in hive tech, ie. poisoning lerks and moo'ing onoses. But thats a fair match innit?
I didn't see the second page, or i wouldn't have regurgitated your points. :/
You posted what i was <b>trying</b> to post, you just did it a lot better and more concisely then I did.
I´m not saying fades should get "teh nerf", I´m just saying your comparisons mean nothing.
I agree to this, i just wanted to keep it easy, i can go more complex if you want.
Lets say fade has a lerk with umbra to support him. That would be at least 35 rp (adren required) to absorb 75% dmg untill the lerk is killed (they die quite fast). For this rp the ha/hmg guy can get a ha/welder buddy who constantly welds him. This ha/welder guy can take much more dmg than even a lerk in umbra and can heal up the ha/hmg guy quickly enough to counter those 75% dmg absorbtion.
Hive sight, parasite vs Motion tracking. Hivesight, parasite is for free (rp wise, hivesight needs someone else actually seeing them, parasite needs someone parasiting them), motion tracking costs 45 rp. So hivesight/parasite is cheaper but unreliable. With mt you allways know when someone comes around the corner or is hiding above the door (unless he parked there for several minutes without moving). With hivesight/parasite you allways have to hope that someone else sees for you (not likely when it would be importaint) or someone got parasited (not very reliable cause most marines who are parasited go on suizide walks if they are 0 rp spawns). Plus your hivesight gets mixed up with lots of useless stuff showing up as well. So this choice is a matter of personal preference, i for myself would pick motion tracking over hivesight/parasite anytime.
So you are right, there is a lot of stuff to consider, most if it equals out quite good. But people are constantly bitching about fades beeing to powerful. So i compared the "warrior class" of the aliens with the "warrior class" of the marines 1on1. Of course it changes if the fade gets support, it changes if the ha/hmg marine gets support as well. People who whine about fades beeing to powerfull generaly complain that they can't kill a fade with lerk support with their singe la/lmg marine. So they complain that a single 0 rp spawn is not able to kill two enemies teamworking (without having a commander to organize their teamwork and costing 95 rp). I thought my comparison would be a bit more fair.
About accuracy of hmg, well 50% would be enough to still be far superiour to acid rockets, but with the ns maps really not beeing snipermaps and the fades beeing quite big targets you will hit MUCH more than 50% of the time (if you aim of course).
About the perfect accuracy splash damage. Yes, you have accuracy, yes you have splash damage, no you do not have a hitscan weapon. All the splash dmg means (remember, range of splash got reduced) is that you wont get your full 60 dmg but even less because on a moving target with a non hitscan weapon direct hits are very hard. I personally would love to see the splash dmg completely removed and adrenaline usage drastically reduced in return.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It is, of course, bollocks to compare the damage points between a low-accuracy no-splash weapon and a super-accuracy large-splash weapon. So what if the HMG can theoretically kill a fade in X seconds, you will NEVER land all the rounds! The fade, on the other hand, only has to aim in the genaral direction. Splash will do the rest.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As said above, if the fade aims in the general direction he will do even less dmg than he allready does because splash dmg decreases with range from center. And direct hits are hard to do because with acid rockets not beeing hitscan weapons you can simply dodge them.
Ok, to stop this more and more flamy nature of this thread: I never said fades are underpowered, i never said fades need a boost, i never said hmg/ha needs a nerf. I did not consider lerk backup (at least in my very first post), i did not consider welder backup as well. I did not consider a gorge dropping off and def towers behind the fade, i did not consider building a siege at combat locations and so kill the gorge while he tries to put those chambers as well (or the marine standing in a turret farm with phase gate to name another tactic to counter this). I did not consider that the initial rp needed to get full upgrade marines is higher than full upgrade aliens, i did not consider awesome powerfull 0 rp spawns and no more paying (and wasting time) for upgrades again either. I did not consider LOTS of it (that is the great part of this game, that you never can consider everything you could do) and i did not make any suggestions for changes (1.04 is only out a few days and i played it only several times till now). I just wanted to show all those whiny i-play-marine-and-nothing-else guys who consider MUCH LESS in their MUCH MORE UNFAIR comparisons ("can't kill this fade/lerk combo with my lmg/la marine, nerf it") that their problem might eventually be that they suck and/or lack of teamplay instead of the fade beeing to powerfull.
Can you feel the love in this room? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->