Marine Res Tower Rush

Lord_RequiemLord_Requiem Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9481Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Major imbalance, very important to fix</div> Simple and effective: Marines rush the first alien res tower while commander spams health for them at the beginning of the game. Aliens can not get another res tower for minimum 10-15 minutes, game is over before it starts. Before you knock it keep in mind I myself have used this strategy and seen it used, there is no real counter, because even if skulks are waiting for marines to show up the marines still have about a 60-70 percent or better chance of killing the res tower before dying, with commander spamming health packs.

Once the tower is down the aliens do not have ANY chance to win the game, even if the commander is incompetant. The marines would have to all go afk for 15 minutes. :/

Comments

  • reborebo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2734Members
    Isnt this the same as a hive rush. I.e if they manage to kill your res tower then they might as well of got your hive?

    Maybe on maps where the res is outside the hive, like stab monitoring. Or possibly that the res node is just that much weaker that the hive it becomes possible?
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    The difference is HEALTH. With the patch a hive starts at full health. You can knock off a res tower MUCH faster than a hive. If the marines can run the alien res tower, then alien resources slow to a crawl, and basically it's game over.

    Of course this is just one more way that rushing can ruin an otherwise good game.

    Regards,

    Savant
  • VeTeRaNVeTeRaN Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7555Banned
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->^Requiem^ Posted on Jan 16 2003, 03:30 PM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Simple and effective: Marines rush the first alien res tower while commander spams health for them at the beginning of the game. Aliens can not get another res tower for minimum 10-15 minutes, game is over before it starts. Before you knock it keep in mind I myself have used this strategy and seen it used, there is no real counter, because even if skulks are waiting for marines to show up the marines still have about a 60-70 percent or better chance of killing the res tower before dying, with commander spamming health packs.

    Once the tower is down the aliens do not have ANY chance to win the game, even if the commander is incompetant. The marines would have to all go afk for 15 minutes. :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Even when a commander is spamming medpacks like a nut, I still kill them just as easily.
  • Lord_RequiemLord_Requiem Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9481Members
    You might kill them, but the res tower is going to go down most of the time, and the game is over before it begins. Thats my point.
  • Hozart1Hozart1 Join Date: 2002-12-14 Member: 10820Members
    Hmmm...Ive never seen this before....a coordinated res tower attack?

    Cool
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited January 2003
    This was a problem back in playtest when the resource flow was slowed dramatically between 2 builds. The result was the increase in RT health.

    I can't find actual numbers for the Kharaa RT, but I presume that it is identical to the Marine RT, which by the manual has 5,000 hitpoints. A single clip of LMG does 500; that's 10 clips to kill a tower.

    Now, that seems like a pretty short amount of time, but the argument has some holes/counter-arguments.

    First of all, any alien in the room where the RT is under attack is (a) likely to kill one marine before he's noticed, and (b) likely to draw a lot of fire away from the tower, prolonging its life expectancy.

    Secondly, the aliens are SUPPOSED to be on the defensive to start with. They have a handicap in resources, attack power (due to the range element), and longevity until they get an upgrade chamber. Their #1 priority should be
    a) know where the marines are
    b) know what they're up to
    c) make (b) as difficult as possible

    This starts, logically, with a quick trip to the Marine Start - thus running into a marine team heading towards your hive. Any marine troupe heading out en masse to kill the aliens' first RT is going to be seen by all but the most incapable alien team, and any alien who knows the basics of this game will call out a warning to his teammates if he sees 3+ marines going somewhere - especially if they're heading towards the hive.

    The aliens' job at the game start is to harass the marines - and if the marines are attacking the alien RT, that's where the aliens should be! I would say that every alien except one (the gorge - MAYBE two, the other being a long-range scout) should be actively engaging the marines. Additionally, if the resource tower takes damage, the gorge needs to go heal it once the attack lulls! Healing Spray isn't just for players. Even if the marines are approaching in waves, there ought to be time for the gorge to heal the tower at least somewhat.

    So yes, it's a tactic. But it's one that has a counter, and can be prevented. Nothing needs nerfing.
  • geldonyetichgeldonyetich Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2537Members
    edited January 2003
    That does sound like a mean and overeffective tactic, indeed.

    Yet, at the same time, it's partially the alien's fault for letting the marines get away with it.

    If your skulks have any talent at all they should able to take down any marines silly enough to fire at their RT instead of the skulks.

    If your gorge has a working synapse in his xenobrain, he'll heal the resource up between marine assaults.

    If all else fails, fine. You want to send all your marines to rush and eat my resources? No problem, I'll send all my Skulks to eat your infantry spawns. Then double back and eat whatever remaining marines are milling around our hive.
  • ShuflYShuflY Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8760Members
    edited January 2003
    Hey, I got an idea, guard your res tower... I mean, at the start of the game you have that and a hive, how hard is it to protect?

    If you lose your starting res tower, you deserve the penalty that goes along with it. I don't think this is an imbalance at all.

    Oh, and the aliens Resource Collectors have 3,000 hit points, where the marines collectors have 5,000. This was because the marines have a harder time holding resource collectors than aliens.
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Nobody ever complains of skulks rushing the IPs... it's expected. But when the marines rush, everybody cries. ^^
  • JonnehJonneh Join Date: 2002-09-10 Member: 1308Members
    edited January 2003
    Amazing! I decide to post, and I click the wrong thread, I suck at the internet
  • ImmacolataImmacolata Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Also the skulks can rush the marine res, thought of that?

    I've seen it and I've done it with success on Eclipse, Caged and Nothing. The marines didnt expect it so they had not protected the in-base res. Some was on guard, we killed them and just went RP munching. Once down it really hit the marines so hard they never recovered.

    Now in the next game we played no one fell for it and they were very diligent about not sending too many out on the map too fast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • mojojojomojojojo Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2017Members
    Eh, I remember suggesting this when people were still moaning continuosly about the hive rush, but no one cared...
    I haven't seen this, so I can't really comment on it, except to say if they keep the increase in healing from the hive that should help a lot ...
    Just out of interest, why is it harder for Marines to hold on to resource towers? I'm not saying it isn't, I just have never heard any reasoning why.
  • AlignAlign Remain Calm Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5216Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Lol @ Jonneh.
    Anyways. Im pretty sure he means the first RT to be BUILT, which every alien gorge knows takes insanely long(unless team is small). If the marines get the gorge as well, I can see that a 15 minute wait for the next is a plausible estimate...
  • ImmacolataImmacolata Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2140Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Many reasons.

    Aliens roam the maps at much higher speeds and can go places throug vents where marines cant. They simply are "all over the place". I often run by an unprotected res nozzle and kill it in serenity,

    Aliens have hivesight and thus they can see if one of their friends has spotted something on the map that needs chomping.

    The autonomous gorge can go silently about his own business building res while the skulks are harassing marines.

    The marines need to protect their base from skulks, thus tying up hands in early game, or res. They also are much less aware of events elsewhere on the map. it also takes a lot of time to take down an alien res tower unless you got a welder at hand. Skulk chomps make fairly quick work of a marine RP even if alone.

    A tactic I've seen used by marines - I've advocated it mysellf but it needs very good shots on the marine team - is to assign marines for res duty. They build a res and hides in a corner, guarding it against wandering skulks. It is a gamble that CAN pay off.
  • babygirlbabygirl Join Date: 2003-01-16 Member: 12378Members
    Req, I'd like to see that done ^_^

    It sounds like a great strategy for public servers, where at best usually half the team is listening to eachother and most of them are like wandering nomads... but I really doubt this could be pulled off in a skillful match. It's just too gung ho and risky =P Besides, even if a bunch of marines did go to the RT, couldn't all the skulks just rush the marine start right off? Poof! Bye bye IPs, byebye comm chair...
  • uranium_235uranium_235 Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9478Banned
    <b>Suggestion</b>

    The Hive counts as a Resource Tower? My sound sort of funny, but I think it sort of fits the 'outpost' ability of the hive (Spawn point, strong, heals nearby players and structures).
  • coilcoil Amateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance. Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Both marines and aliens have a *small* RP income without any RTs - it allows them to *build* an RT in the unfortunate circumstance that they lose all of theirs and have no $$. But it's SLOW.
  • CatpokerCatpoker Join Date: 2002-06-25 Member: 816Members
    if the marines are that smart and cordnated and the aliens are not, tough luck, find a better team
  • ZunniZunni The best thing to happen to I&amp;S in a long while Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 10016Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Amazing! I decide to post, and I click the wrong thread, I suck at the internet<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Reminds me of a Bash.org quote:

    I beat the Internet
    The end guy was hard...
  • VimstlVimstl Join Date: 2002-11-28 Member: 10145Members
    edited January 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--^Requiem^+Jan 16 2003, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (^Requiem^ @ Jan 16 2003, 03:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Once the tower is down the aliens do not have ANY chance to win the game, even if the commander is incompetant.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Isn't this just another variety of the common theme: "Hey, if they kill us early - we lose!" Yes.

    If all your res nodes are dead, you lose.
    If all your hives are dead, you lose.
    If all your IPs are dead, you lose.
    If all your CCs are dead, you lose.
    etc.

    You win by preventing these things from happening.
  • MasterEvilAceMasterEvilAce Join Date: 2002-11-29 Member: 10268Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin--Immacolata+Jan 17 2003, 05:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ Jan 17 2003, 05:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also the skulks can rush the marine res, thought of that?

    I've seen it and I've done it with success on Eclipse, Caged and Nothing. The marines didnt expect it so they had not protected the in-base res. Some was on guard, we killed them and just went RP munching. Once down it really hit the marines so hard they never recovered.

    Now in the next game we played no one fell for it and they were very diligent about not sending too many out on the map too fast <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    i posted this already but, it's a good tactic:



    Also, i have found out that:

    marines are faster if they use their resources better.. like OAZE (a clanmate) just grabs more nodes with the starting 100res.. he'll have like 2 nodes while the aliens are just now getting 1 node up... but if marines build like an OBs, armory, 2 IPs, etc. they have to WAIT for res to build a node

    Oaze's tactic works nearly everytime, unless the aliens are very skilled in rushing together, dodging, etc.

    the more res nodes the marines get at the beginning, the faster the upgrades/tech rushes come
  • AcKzAcKz Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10079Banned
    Sounds like a good tactice, I must try it some time.
  • bigjanginbigjangin Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2090Members
    this is a very cheap and effective tactic. I played with req when I saw the marine team do this for the first time. It is very hard to stop. We tried to not waste ammo on skulks and concentrated on killing the res chamber. We did it again next round and i was the only marine left and i finished it off with my knife. Its too easy to pull off and the aliens simply cant recover, even if the marines have the worst commander ever.
  • Lord_RequiemLord_Requiem Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9481Members
    **** about teamwork and garbage all you want, but in the end this works FAR too often on pubs. Sure it might not work as well in a clan match where teamwork is excellent, but NS needs to be balanced for pubs as well as clan matches.

    Its not easy to balance the game for both, but thats why the devs of NS are getting paid so much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • Silver_FoxSilver_Fox Spammer Join Date: 2002-01-24 Member: 34Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--QuoteBegin--^Requiem^+Jan 17 2003, 12:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (^Requiem^ @ Jan 17 2003, 12:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but thats why the devs of NS are getting paid so much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    talk about a slap in the freaking face ...

    NS is about team work. Thats one of the key ingredients. Its not needed <b>as</b> much for aliens, but it's still a pretty big part.

    The game is designed so that if you dont play as a team - you lose.
  • tanathostanathos Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 4949Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--^Requiem^+Jan 17 2003, 03:27 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (^Requiem^ @ Jan 17 2003, 03:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->**** about teamwork and garbage all you want, but in the end this works FAR too often on pubs. Sure it might not work as well in a clan match where teamwork is excellent, but NS needs to be balanced for pubs as well as clan matches.

    Its not easy to balance the game for both, but thats why the devs of NS are getting paid so much. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't think they were PAID. THey did this for free.. so bear with it!
  • ShuflYShuflY Join Date: 2002-11-15 Member: 8760Members
    I like Vimstl's post the best, and it pretty much sums up how I feel. You can keep complaining on this thread, but what it comes down to is an alien team that can't quite get it together. EVERY FRIGGIN ALIEN on the team will get a big fat warning when a structure is under attack, they can go save their node. They can guard their node, in fact, if the aliens are letting the marines get as far as their spawn node, they are doing something wrong in the first place, if the marines had decided to go into your hive and kill that instead of your res node, you would be complaining about that.

    I refuse to believe that this is an exploit, if the other team wants to attack one of your structures, that is fair game. The aliens have the same ability to attack stuctures, it's not like this is an exclusive marine trait.
  • bigjanginbigjangin Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2090Members
    i guess this tactic is hard to understand unless it happens to you. A res tower can be killed in a few seconds with several marines attacking. A hive takes a lot more to take down. When a team has no resource towers, they got 1 resource point every 12 seconds. This one res point has to be divided up among the whole team. Now imagine how long it would take to save up 22 res when each person is getting less than resource point per minute. It is really really cheap.
  • Mr_BeanMr_Bean Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7943Members
    Indeed, you only need 4 Marines to pull this off right

    4x500=2000 Damage x 1 Reload=4000 Whip to handgun and finish

    In a big game thats pretty easy to do(Sneak 4 Marines past the skulks as normaly they rush or run off and hide, rare is it they defend the base)

    And don't forget the oh so fun Weilder Rush! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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