Marine Wall Of Lame (long Post)
ORDMorphix
Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12414Members
Join Date: 2003-01-17 Member: 12414Members
<div class="IPBDescription">why is this even possible?</div> I've been lurking these forums for quite some time, never really wanted to post anything, because I've never felt that there was a significant balance issue that I wanted to comment on. I've always been able to play through everything people seemed to be bitching about. But, recently there is one Marine strategy that’s been bugging the hell out of me.
Now, I play on the Coronas NS server, and maybe because its a 24 player server that this is even possible, so it may not be an issue on smaller servers, but here goes anyway.
It all started with -cis-Fir Elment (sp) he’s a regular on the server, a very skilled Commander who was the first person I saw use this exploit.
Using Comm chairs to block hallways.
This has is almost a regular strategy on the server now, and its disgusting.
This happend on the map (the one with Satcom and Fusion hives) aliens started out short 6 people. Eventually it all evened out, it was a good game, marines were constantly storming our defenses but aliens held out strong. But we couldn't get the last hive (not sat, not fusion, the one in the corner of the map) because they built comms chairs on each entrance. If you've played this map at all, you know how tiny the entrances to that map are, and since the vents were welded a long time ago, the aliens had no way of getting into the hive. So for 1 hours we spammed the hive, all the while, marines just sat back, building a new comm chair when one fell and spamming grenades from the other side with impunity, not like it hurt their own buildings. But it sure as hell stopped Skulls from chomping away at it, and I'm not sure if you actually seen how long it takes for a fade with Rockets to try to take out a Comm chair, but even with 5 fades working on 1 entrance it was going really slowly. And as soon as 1 chair went down, another one replaced it.
And of course the entire time marines are bouncing grenades into the hallways, and fades are dieing because we can't build defense towers because of the siege.
Only reason we won is because the commander eventually stopped building comm chairs, but he could have kept doing it, even though we controlled every Res (other than the hive res)at this point.
But this isn't just specific to hive turtling. I've seen commanders drop comm chairs near Alien hives, blocking their vents, etc.
You may say that this isn’t a problem, because of the amount of money it costs to build a comm. Chair, but than you haven’t seen how effectively and frequently its used, the money is a non-issue.
Some may say this is no way less lame than Aliens using buildings to block elevators on maps. I would disagree, Marines have a long range weapon that can take out anything of that sort in short time, so this tactic is minimally effective, helps Aliens in early-game, but its useless in mid-late.
But back to Comm Chair Spaming. This should not be a tactic that can be used, aliens had their ability to build walls of lame destroyed, but even their buildings couldn't physically block the other team from running past them. This has to stop. Don't weaken the comm chair, because there is a reason why it has to be strong. But limit the amount of Comm chairs that can be deployed at anyone time to 3. That way, it stops Marines from using these chairs as throughout the entire map without worry, but it still allows them to have couple backup chairs if Aliens are able to take out their primary.
Now, I play on the Coronas NS server, and maybe because its a 24 player server that this is even possible, so it may not be an issue on smaller servers, but here goes anyway.
It all started with -cis-Fir Elment (sp) he’s a regular on the server, a very skilled Commander who was the first person I saw use this exploit.
Using Comm chairs to block hallways.
This has is almost a regular strategy on the server now, and its disgusting.
This happend on the map (the one with Satcom and Fusion hives) aliens started out short 6 people. Eventually it all evened out, it was a good game, marines were constantly storming our defenses but aliens held out strong. But we couldn't get the last hive (not sat, not fusion, the one in the corner of the map) because they built comms chairs on each entrance. If you've played this map at all, you know how tiny the entrances to that map are, and since the vents were welded a long time ago, the aliens had no way of getting into the hive. So for 1 hours we spammed the hive, all the while, marines just sat back, building a new comm chair when one fell and spamming grenades from the other side with impunity, not like it hurt their own buildings. But it sure as hell stopped Skulls from chomping away at it, and I'm not sure if you actually seen how long it takes for a fade with Rockets to try to take out a Comm chair, but even with 5 fades working on 1 entrance it was going really slowly. And as soon as 1 chair went down, another one replaced it.
And of course the entire time marines are bouncing grenades into the hallways, and fades are dieing because we can't build defense towers because of the siege.
Only reason we won is because the commander eventually stopped building comm chairs, but he could have kept doing it, even though we controlled every Res (other than the hive res)at this point.
But this isn't just specific to hive turtling. I've seen commanders drop comm chairs near Alien hives, blocking their vents, etc.
You may say that this isn’t a problem, because of the amount of money it costs to build a comm. Chair, but than you haven’t seen how effectively and frequently its used, the money is a non-issue.
Some may say this is no way less lame than Aliens using buildings to block elevators on maps. I would disagree, Marines have a long range weapon that can take out anything of that sort in short time, so this tactic is minimally effective, helps Aliens in early-game, but its useless in mid-late.
But back to Comm Chair Spaming. This should not be a tactic that can be used, aliens had their ability to build walls of lame destroyed, but even their buildings couldn't physically block the other team from running past them. This has to stop. Don't weaken the comm chair, because there is a reason why it has to be strong. But limit the amount of Comm chairs that can be deployed at anyone time to 3. That way, it stops Marines from using these chairs as throughout the entire map without worry, but it still allows them to have couple backup chairs if Aliens are able to take out their primary.
Comments
*Begins coding in CC limit of 3*
Therefore simply collect EVERY alien, 2 of these go lerk, the rest fade, then all rush in at once storming the centre of the base, you'll recieve more casulties, but if you ALL concentrate on the base structures, about 3-4 turrets at a time, your actually taking more away from there base than they can afford to replace, eventually if your team can keep it up, the aliens will win since in the mean time, the marines cannot advance too far.
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> LIMIT CC!!!</span>
The annyoing thing about that game is they still had a main base for a while. So our people were split on whether to keep trying to push the hive, or trying to push the main base. Of course as soon as we let off one, the marines would rush out, claim some territory. And since they could teleport between both entranched bases they could easily reinforce any base that Alien were growing headway on.
-M
<span style='font-size:21pt;line-height:100%'> LIMIT CC!!!</span><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought up this tactic by myself quite sometime ago, and yes, there are ways around it, cc's aren't cheap and can't be used to defend everything.
Good examples of cc's were infront of tfacs, 2 was required to make a tfac almost invunerable even from an 8 skulk rush.
It's a perfectly valid, and costly tactic. If the aliens had better co-ordination then, they'd not let the marines stack up the resources to let this happen.
If every fade, all rushed in at the same time, jumping over the cc's then you'd find 5-6 surving fades vs. 6-7 GL's would result in a very quick mass marine death.
Phase. Gates. And. Selective. Recycling.
Now that Sieges need spotting, I've changed how I feel about elevator blocking... It's a bit worse since the frequent counter to it (siege) is less effective.
Chambers on phase gates... I don't mind--the marine team could just recycle the phasegate, and if they managed to let a widdle cutesy-poo gorge get over there and make a chamber in the first place... Well, suffice to say that the recycle option fixes it.
Hiking the CC up to 50 would help to curtail this tactic AND help stop the early game IP rush (building a CC and IPs right outside the alien hive). CC is the most durable and powerful marine building in the game; its cost should reflect that.
People need to start blaming themsleves when something does not go their way, not the game.
This is the kind of stalemate that needs to be avoided in NS. Fully teched marines can out-muscle 2-hive aliens... if the marines can turtle in a hive long enough to reach full tech, they stand a good chance of pulling a victory out of what should have been a messy defeat.
You may argue that holding off the aliens while teching up is a legitimate tactic... I would agree, except for one key word: "turtling." Flayra doesn't want it in NS, and the game has been designed the entire way with *active engagement* in mind as the primary goal. It's the reason sieges require LOS in 1.04 - to force confrontation, which is where the fun of NS is. An hour-long siege of a thoroughly entrenched and non-offensive marine team is about as fun as an alien team that refuses to destroy your IPs after everything else in your base has been destroyed.
Limit every alien chamber building!!! Like maybe 5 per game...since they are so cheap.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know
Let fades blink thru walls/entities! =].
Limit every alien chamber building!!! Like maybe 5 per game...since they are so cheap.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. There is allready an limit on how many OC aliens can build at any point on the map.
2. OC dont have that many hitpoints. Though with a couple of DC behind it it can be to much for a single marine to take out. I think this is as it should be considering the cost of all those DC.
You could nerf the CC like the OC i.e. limit the amount of CC you can have at with in an area.
<!--QuoteBegin--rebo+Jan 17 2003, 04:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (rebo @ Jan 17 2003, 04:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Wouldnt it be great if we could think of an ingenious solution to this admittedly lame problem.
I know
Let fades blink thru walls/entities! =]. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Guessing this is a joke but I'm gonna answer any how <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Just like the manual say Fades could blink thruw walls. It was removed because of balance issues.
One thing that the alien team in the first post could have done was to use the marines gate at their spawn and appear in the middle of the sewer hive.
Of course they would only be able to do this a couple of times untill the com got tired of it and recycled the gate. If it was a smart com then he would recycle the gate at sewer.
Allowing 1 per area, would stop comms from building walls with them, encourage marines to create a backup base, and stop llama's from spamming them at the start of the game so easily (just the extra effort in moving the map I know, but it's a start!)
This would make CC walls cost a fortune...
No CC within two marine lengths (roughly 200 unit radius) of another CC.
Problem solved entirely.
Comm chair isn't a blockade, it's a command chair for the commander to sit in. Using it as a blockade doesn't fit in the concept of the game. Complaining about aliens doing the same with their chambers has no point, since it is obviously a valid tactic in the opinion of devs and also one that is sorely needed in order to fight the superior ranged weapons of marines. Also, offensive and defensive towers are meant to be used as base defence, something that can't be said about comm chair.
Limit the number of CC's. I don't play marine so often, but I can't really think of a situation where marines would need more than 2 active CC's. I can think of situations where you need to place a third CC, but what stops you from recycling another one of the excisting ones in order to do so? If there is a situation, where you absolutely must have 3 CC's, please enlighten me.
If my memory serves you cant recycle CC:s. Thats why evil n00bs like to place a lot of them in marine spawn. Its rp that you never can get back
Damn. Well, would it be a good idea to be able to recycle those comm chairs you aren't using currently?
The marines who know how to exploit your weaknesses WILL win, your spawn que means that after a major attack that fails they have the intire map available for expansion.
WOL isn't your problem, your problem is the resource system favouring marines in large games added to the fact that the spawn que is allowing the marines to ALWAYS escape their base at the start.
Play on an 8vs8 or better a 6 vs 6 and its a different story.
6vs6 spamming CC's is NOT an option as the res flow just wouldn't allow them to be replaced fast enough.
Personally in games which aren't going anywhere I'll f4, they're dull.
BlueGhost