Dear God, People.
Kitsune
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
Join Date: 2002-11-09 Member: 7843Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is it really so hard to adapt?</div> Natural Selection has just been out for a hair over two and a half months now, and you'd swear that Flayra was yanking the plug on peoples' grandmothers' life support whenever he does any tweaking. "OMFG1!" comes the cry, "ill d13 if i cant pwn with 4c1D |20c|<37!111!!!" He changed something that messed up a tactic you learned? Unlearn it. Believe it or not, your brain was not made to be a sponge that soaks up the VLF radiation from your monitor. Your brain was made to help you adapt and survive in changing situations, and you'd be surprised just how good a job it can do if you actually work at it rather than camping on forums and complaining. We all (except for the playtesters) learned everything from scratch not even a season ago, please believe me when I say that you'll manage to cope with discarding whatever concepts you've begun to hold dear in that impossibly long time.
Let's run down the list.
* Skulks do not 'own' light marines. Light marines do not 'own' Skulks.
I've killed five marines in a row, I've killed five Skulks in a row. I've been killed by both in the exact opposite situations. Neither has any edge worth speaking of.
* Fades are not unfair.
I've killed Fades with LMGs. I've killed Fades with pistols. Haven't knifed one yet, but I'm waiting for the chance. All it takes is the will to step around that corner and face them down.
* Grenades are not unfair.
The power of grenades ends at close range, which, by amazing coincidence, is where the power of most of the aliens is at its peak. Dealing with a grenadier is precisely the same as dealing with a Fade: grow a pair, run around that corner, and get in their face.
* Webs are not unfair.
If you're going down a hallway alone, get stuck in webs, and get eaten, then someone was a naughty ramboing boy who reaped the inevitable reward of going off alone. You should have had at least two other guys at your back to mow down the Gorge who healing sprayed you to death. Now you know better. Same goes for Gorges trying to web someone in the middle of a fight, that Gorge should be very dead as early on as possible, and certainly before it has the chance to web more than one person.
* Motion tracking is not unfair.
I have a headset on, and am a paranoid, evil-minded man who knows that if I were a Skulk, I'd love nothing more than to sneak up on myself and make me feel like an idiot after biting me in the butt. As such, I always listen carefully, and always keep an eye down hallways and on good ambush points, like ceilings and arched doorways. I didn't need motion tracking to know you were there, I didn't need it to shoot you. It just helped. Seeing all the other blue circles on my screen from the rest of your team is more of a clutter than an aid, and it will be a cold day before I can tell what all those tiny circles on the other side of the map are doing.
* Umbra is not unfair.
If people poured attention on the Lerk rather than just shot blindly into the yellow mist or ran away, I'd have been having much less fun playing a Lerk than I do. One guy usually has the right idea and runs up to knife me, but one guy alone doesn't cut it, and is often swiped down by my Fade, because I'm his bestest buddy in the universe. Throw grenades at them. Knife them. Weld them. Lerks drop like chumps, and even the good Lerks will flee after taking damage rather than die and put those 37 RPs down the tubes. Chase them off or kill them, either way it leaves the Fade high and dry.
* Walls of Lame and Turret Farms are not unfair.
There's always a weak spot, it's your own problem if you can't exploit it. Jump over the offense chambers to kill the defense chambers first. Find the side of the turret factory with the least number of turrets covering it, then clear those turrets out.
* Jetpacks are not unfair.
I'll admit, it's always obnoxious to see the jetbo with the health-spamming commander going for a hive. However, it's easy for a Lerk to bankrupt the marines. It uses up a two-resource medkit for every time you hit the guy, and with the high rate of fire of spikes... Keeping them busy long enough for Skulks to get up on the ceiling and lay some bites on them isn't that big of a trick. Jetpacks take skill to use. I know it sounds weird to most of you who, like me, have racked up plenty of Tribes hours in our pursuit of team-based games, but it's true. My roomie has killed himself numerous times with a jetpack, because he has no control over it. Trying to explain finesse with a jetpack to him falls on deaf ears, he just mashes on the thrust button until he hits the ceiling, just before falling in a heap right back on the floor. There are in fact people who cannot hover and do midair acrobatics around pipes while shooting at Lerks, the fact that some guy mowed you down from twenty feet overhead speaks highly of his talent, not poorly of jetpacks.
* You did not pay for Natural Selection.
You are not the boss of Flayra. The developers owe you nothing. For commercial software, they would have an obligation to you, but you downloaded their game for free. You get what you paid for, and the nothing you spent entitles you to an equal nothing back. As your money is not paying their rent, please do not assume that your displeasure with something they choose to do will make them lose any sleep tonight. It's their game, their idea, and they can do what they want with it. They could swap out all of the models with coil's cute chibi aliens, replace the weapons with pink Barbie pillows and rename the game to 'Teenage Girl Pillow Fight: Slumber Party Assault!' and it's perfectly within their rights to do just that.
* The world will continue to turn.
Whether you like it or not, changes will happen that you disagree with, or not happen when you disagree with the status quo. Life will not end. Time spent complaining would be better spent actually playing the game and learning to deal with whatever paradigm shift happened in the latest patch. When in doubt, shoot it. Your character may die, you may lose the game, but fortunately there's another game starting in about twenty seconds, so the damage isn't irreparable. Learn, adapt, and move on.
Now, this is not addressed to people who are stating their opinions, but rather the ones who run into the forums and publically panic over whatever state of affairs they disagree with. Key words to watch for are 'overpowered', 'too powerful', 'no way to stop them', 'F4', 'OMG', and 'I quit'. I'm far from a leet FPS player; I don't get many headshots as a sniper, I don't bunnyhop or use any other engine physics exploits, never bothered with seeking a clan or practicing for hours every day. And if <b>I</b> am not having a problem coping with a Fade on my doorstep or jetpackers in the vents, then nobody else should, either. Sieges changed? I coped. Umbra nerfed? I coped. Being comfortable with something and not wanting it to change is natural, but change is good, and adapting isn't difficult. Get in there and try it before decrying it as the damnation of the game.
Let's run down the list.
* Skulks do not 'own' light marines. Light marines do not 'own' Skulks.
I've killed five marines in a row, I've killed five Skulks in a row. I've been killed by both in the exact opposite situations. Neither has any edge worth speaking of.
* Fades are not unfair.
I've killed Fades with LMGs. I've killed Fades with pistols. Haven't knifed one yet, but I'm waiting for the chance. All it takes is the will to step around that corner and face them down.
* Grenades are not unfair.
The power of grenades ends at close range, which, by amazing coincidence, is where the power of most of the aliens is at its peak. Dealing with a grenadier is precisely the same as dealing with a Fade: grow a pair, run around that corner, and get in their face.
* Webs are not unfair.
If you're going down a hallway alone, get stuck in webs, and get eaten, then someone was a naughty ramboing boy who reaped the inevitable reward of going off alone. You should have had at least two other guys at your back to mow down the Gorge who healing sprayed you to death. Now you know better. Same goes for Gorges trying to web someone in the middle of a fight, that Gorge should be very dead as early on as possible, and certainly before it has the chance to web more than one person.
* Motion tracking is not unfair.
I have a headset on, and am a paranoid, evil-minded man who knows that if I were a Skulk, I'd love nothing more than to sneak up on myself and make me feel like an idiot after biting me in the butt. As such, I always listen carefully, and always keep an eye down hallways and on good ambush points, like ceilings and arched doorways. I didn't need motion tracking to know you were there, I didn't need it to shoot you. It just helped. Seeing all the other blue circles on my screen from the rest of your team is more of a clutter than an aid, and it will be a cold day before I can tell what all those tiny circles on the other side of the map are doing.
* Umbra is not unfair.
If people poured attention on the Lerk rather than just shot blindly into the yellow mist or ran away, I'd have been having much less fun playing a Lerk than I do. One guy usually has the right idea and runs up to knife me, but one guy alone doesn't cut it, and is often swiped down by my Fade, because I'm his bestest buddy in the universe. Throw grenades at them. Knife them. Weld them. Lerks drop like chumps, and even the good Lerks will flee after taking damage rather than die and put those 37 RPs down the tubes. Chase them off or kill them, either way it leaves the Fade high and dry.
* Walls of Lame and Turret Farms are not unfair.
There's always a weak spot, it's your own problem if you can't exploit it. Jump over the offense chambers to kill the defense chambers first. Find the side of the turret factory with the least number of turrets covering it, then clear those turrets out.
* Jetpacks are not unfair.
I'll admit, it's always obnoxious to see the jetbo with the health-spamming commander going for a hive. However, it's easy for a Lerk to bankrupt the marines. It uses up a two-resource medkit for every time you hit the guy, and with the high rate of fire of spikes... Keeping them busy long enough for Skulks to get up on the ceiling and lay some bites on them isn't that big of a trick. Jetpacks take skill to use. I know it sounds weird to most of you who, like me, have racked up plenty of Tribes hours in our pursuit of team-based games, but it's true. My roomie has killed himself numerous times with a jetpack, because he has no control over it. Trying to explain finesse with a jetpack to him falls on deaf ears, he just mashes on the thrust button until he hits the ceiling, just before falling in a heap right back on the floor. There are in fact people who cannot hover and do midair acrobatics around pipes while shooting at Lerks, the fact that some guy mowed you down from twenty feet overhead speaks highly of his talent, not poorly of jetpacks.
* You did not pay for Natural Selection.
You are not the boss of Flayra. The developers owe you nothing. For commercial software, they would have an obligation to you, but you downloaded their game for free. You get what you paid for, and the nothing you spent entitles you to an equal nothing back. As your money is not paying their rent, please do not assume that your displeasure with something they choose to do will make them lose any sleep tonight. It's their game, their idea, and they can do what they want with it. They could swap out all of the models with coil's cute chibi aliens, replace the weapons with pink Barbie pillows and rename the game to 'Teenage Girl Pillow Fight: Slumber Party Assault!' and it's perfectly within their rights to do just that.
* The world will continue to turn.
Whether you like it or not, changes will happen that you disagree with, or not happen when you disagree with the status quo. Life will not end. Time spent complaining would be better spent actually playing the game and learning to deal with whatever paradigm shift happened in the latest patch. When in doubt, shoot it. Your character may die, you may lose the game, but fortunately there's another game starting in about twenty seconds, so the damage isn't irreparable. Learn, adapt, and move on.
Now, this is not addressed to people who are stating their opinions, but rather the ones who run into the forums and publically panic over whatever state of affairs they disagree with. Key words to watch for are 'overpowered', 'too powerful', 'no way to stop them', 'F4', 'OMG', and 'I quit'. I'm far from a leet FPS player; I don't get many headshots as a sniper, I don't bunnyhop or use any other engine physics exploits, never bothered with seeking a clan or practicing for hours every day. And if <b>I</b> am not having a problem coping with a Fade on my doorstep or jetpackers in the vents, then nobody else should, either. Sieges changed? I coped. Umbra nerfed? I coped. Being comfortable with something and not wanting it to change is natural, but change is good, and adapting isn't difficult. Get in there and try it before decrying it as the damnation of the game.
Comments
Some comments are useful though. Like Fades being the end game factor.
"If it isn't broke, why fix it"?
well .. who said it wasn't broke ...?
I just think people don't want to lose the advantage they think they've gained by using an exploit or something they know is cheap. Or even (for the love of god) trying new things ...
what ever, its the general public for you
There's a tabletop wargame out called Mage Knight. More popular in some areas than others, so some people will groan at the name, others will never've heard of it. When it first came out, there was this big, atrocious THING in the original set of figures, called a Storm Golem. Ol' Stormy could shoot three targets at once, had a very wide firing arc, and could be boosted up by some other figures to do a ton of damage. "Oh no, can't beat Storm Golem!" said so many messages on the forums about him. "It's total cheese, can't win against it!"
Only it couldn't use ranged attacks if any enemy was in base contact with it. So I said, "Guys, it's easy to beat, just levitate some chump up to it to keep it from shooting, then charge it with your army and pound it to bits.
Next week? "OMG, levitation is too strong! Can't beat a levitate army!"
Of course it was easy to beat levitation, and I told them that, too, but for some unknowable reason, there are people who cling desperately to the idea that just because their first plan to beat something doesn't work, it's insurmountable. Needs to be changed to make it possible for their plan to work against it. Actually taking the time to think up a counter-strategy? Preposterous!
Some people no longer think very much any more.
Pwn
Ooh, put that in the next patch, please. Flayra, you listening? Do as I say NOW, curse you!
Just make sure the alien Barbie-pillows aren't overpowered!!!!!!1!!!2
Some people no longer think very much any more.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is how they are brought up. Spoon fed pulp drama and lowest common denominator triteness from corporate america.
leave my posts alone
Everything else that the other dude said was pretty accurate. However, I dont think that the game needs to be "tweaked" at all. It's easy to learn and unlearn stratagies. But what I dont understand is if everything else balanced, and there is a perfect counter for every strategy in the game (save some bugs and exploits), why does the game need to be "tweaked" at all?
It used to amazingly popular... ranked #3 on the Gamespy HL mod stats at one point. But sadly after a few hugely successful months version 1.2 came out. To cut a long story short this version had not been tested thoroughly enough and had so many gamekilling bugs that thousands of players just left. After 1.2 the community was scared of change. Version after version contained only minor tweaks and slight gameplay changes... nothing REALLY new. Thankfully now FLF is back on track (check out www.flfmod.com for FLF2 info </pimp> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
But anyway: CHANGE IS GOOD. Often the best thing to do is to get in and mix it up a bit. Force people to relearn certain aspects of the game or to create new gameplay strategies. Change is what gives a game life.
Naturally, this is before the 2 hive status, and if it is at or past the 2 hive status, then they simply spam in obscure locations until the server crashes...
But you do have some valid points, are you sure you havent been influenced by the borg? Nevertheless, we shall adapt...
Pwn<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Definitely.
<img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDonos2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'><img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDskulk.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'><img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDgorge.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Ooh, put that in the next patch, please. Flayra, you listening? Do as I say NOW, curse you!
Just make sure the alien Barbie-pillows aren't overpowered!!!!!!1!!!2<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now THAT would pwn.
I'm getting version 2.0: 'Teenage Girl Dresser Table: Makeover' with pwning lipstick bullets and Mascumbra.
Tottaly pwn.
C'mon Flayra!
There are ****loads of <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=18124' target='_blank'>things</a> that need fixing in this game, and many balance issues to iron out.
But I do wish people who have simply not bothered to investigate the game's built in layers and countermeasures would stop whinging about the established, balanced aspects of the game - at least until they have
a) played until they are competant or
b) watched some pros play
<img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDonos2.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'><img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDskulk.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'><img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDgorge.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hey, no lerk? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
When someone has invested like litrally MONTHS of play time into their character, who they carefull devised to take advantage of all the games little nausiances and bugs to make it 'teh ub0r l33tz' and the devs come along and say "we're thinking about nerfing drain health because quite frankly a % damage spell that gives you back health scales too well with all the monsters we create" ah me, you should see them **** then <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hillariously the game which I long ago left due to the devs inability to effect change (they had a 'no nerf' policy to stop their customers getting annoied) is still going strong dispite all the changes I said needed implementing now having been implemented. Its really quite humerous.
BlueGhost
KB ....
only grenades can deal with lerks
the power of umbra is in its ability to take out marine bases (mainyl turrets) sooooo much easier than just a pack of acid spamming fades
tho with the new changes to umbra, it might be possible to just ff on the lerk even in umbra..assuming u can get a clear shot at him..
Good to see some none whiners here. As for the others who can't handle the truth, to bad grow up, its a good post get over it. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
I ran out of space, and I think the boards only allow 3 [img] tags per post. Here ya go!
<img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDlerk.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDfade.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'> <img src='http://www.princeton.edu/~danj/ns/SDmarine.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
Well played light marines do generally own well played skulks. This is because the Marines can force the skulks to come to them, such as when they're building up defences in a hive. When a Marine sees a skulk coming, it's a relatively simple manner to remove them with a LMG. Thanks to motion tracking (which again I don't see the harm of) it's unlikely the skulk will be able to sneak up on them. Thanks to phase gate, the oppertunity to ambush the Marines on the way to defend their fortifications is not there. The best time for skulks to counter marine rushes is while the marines are in transit, but that is often a small window of oppertunity.
Second, Fades are a tad excessive. "Unfair" may be going a bit far. However, they do end the game to the extent where since 1.03 it's basically come down to a game of "he who owns two hives has won the game". I personally blame the acid rocket, which often takes down three marines simultaniously. You can rush and kill Fade, but it generally only works when the Fade is half dead and silly enough to let you get close enough with your LMG to finish it off. However, a good Fade player continually uses their improved mobility to keep themselves well healed and at enough distance from the Marines so they can wear them down to nothing with rapid acid rocket barrages. A Marine who manages to get through the acid rockets and close enough to make good use of his LMG will likely be damaged enough that the Fade's claws will finish them off in one swipe.
So basically, it's a game of who manages to take and hold two hives. Arguably, this is balanced, however - would you call it *optimal*?
When Marines take and hold two Alien hives, it's usually just a masochistic dance of death for the aliens to stick around another 15 minutes waiting for the Marines to get up the spine to remove your fortifications. Sometimes they can manage to get a hive back, but only if the Marines are not regularly guarding their holdings and usually it's a result of poor turret placement.
Conversely, when the Aliens take two hives the game is usually over too soon. Fades, supported by other two hive abilities (umbra, webs, ect), and with mobility that allows them to frequently return to a DC to heal themselves, can generally cut through any defences the Marines have like a hot knife through butter.
Ultimately, the big problem I see is that the top teir of the Alien and Marines technology is only really is brought to bear when the game is already over. Onos just show up to end a game which is already over - the game is usually over before the third hive is even fully built. Brigades of HMG/HA Marines are simularly only there to decisively tell the skulks trying to defend their remaining hive that they've lost. The teams end up not fighting as equals on the field, but rather as oppertunists who managed to hold a few vital positions before their opponents did.
It's playable, but it could be better in my opinion.
And on a less adorable note, allow me to make a few additions to some arguments and amuse myself as the whole thread does a U-Turn.....
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* Fades are not unfair.
I've killed Fades with LMGs. I've killed Fades with pistols. Haven't knifed one yet, but I'm waiting for the chance. All it takes is the will to step around that corner and face them down.
* Grenades are not unfair.
The power of grenades ends at close range, which, by amazing coincidence, is where the power of most of the aliens is at its peak. Dealing with a grenadier is precisely the same as dealing with a Fade: grow a pair, run around that corner, and get in their face.
* Webs are not unfair.
If you're going down a hallway alone, get stuck in webs, and get eaten, then someone was a naughty ramboing boy who reaped the inevitable reward of going off alone. You should have had at least two other guys at your back to mow down the Gorge who healing sprayed you to death. Now you know better. Same goes for Gorges trying to web someone in the middle of a fight, that Gorge should be very dead as early on as possible, and certainly before it has the chance to web more than one person.
* Motion tracking is not unfair.
I have a headset on, and am a paranoid, evil-minded man who knows that if I were a Skulk, I'd love nothing more than to sneak up on myself and make me feel like an idiot after biting me in the butt. As such, I always listen carefully, and always keep an eye down hallways and on good ambush points, like ceilings and arched doorways. I didn't need motion tracking to know you were there, I didn't need it to shoot you. It just helped. Seeing all the other blue circles on my screen from the rest of your team is more of a clutter than an aid, and it will be a cold day before I can tell what all those tiny circles on the other side of the map are doing.
* Umbra is not unfair.
If people poured attention on the Lerk rather than just shot blindly into the yellow mist or ran away, I'd have been having much less fun playing a Lerk than I do. One guy usually has the right idea and runs up to knife me, but one guy alone doesn't cut it, and is often swiped down by my Fade, because I'm his bestest buddy in the universe. Throw grenades at them. Knife them. Weld them. Lerks drop like chumps, and even the good Lerks will flee after taking damage rather than die and put those 37 RPs down the tubes. Chase them off or kill them, either way it leaves the Fade high and dry.
* Walls of Lame and Turret Farms are not unfair.
There's always a weak spot, it's your own problem if you can't exploit it. Jump over the offense chambers to kill the defense chambers first. Find the side of the turret factory with the least number of turrets covering it, then clear those turrets out.
* Jetpacks are not unfair.
I'll admit, it's always obnoxious to see the jetbo with the health-spamming commander going for a hive. However, it's easy for a Lerk to bankrupt the marines. It uses up a two-resource medkit for every time you hit the guy, and with the high rate of fire of spikes... Keeping them busy long enough for Skulks to get up on the ceiling and lay some bites on them isn't that big of a trick. Jetpacks take skill to use. I know it sounds weird to most of you who, like me, have racked up plenty of Tribes hours in our pursuit of team-based games, but it's true. My roomie has killed himself numerous times with a jetpack, because he has no control over it. Trying to explain finesse with a jetpack to him falls on deaf ears, he just mashes on the thrust button until he hits the ceiling, just before falling in a heap right back on the floor. There are in fact people who cannot hover and do midair acrobatics around pipes while shooting at Lerks, the fact that some guy mowed you down from twenty feet overhead speaks highly of his talent, not poorly of jetpacks.
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* Bunnyhopping is not unfair.
Comments like "if you don't like it, learn how to beat it" are all well and good untill someone starts a thread on something like bunnyhopping, and then you're all in there preaching the evils of the jump button. When you make a statement like this, remember it works both ways. Should the statement actually read "Anyone who complains about something in the game is a loser!........ unless its also something that i'd like to complain about in which case they are messengers from heaven preaching divine truths"?
If Flayra decided tomorrow that he didn't really like the skulk much, and that aliens should all spawn as fades instead, would you still be claiming "if you don't like it, learn how to beat it'?
Likewise, had the hopping situation been the other way around, and hopping were in the process of being ADDED to ns, <b>as a feature.</b> Would all of you babbling about adapting, and everyone on the hopping threads who screamed EXPLOIT, suddenly be embracing the ability? I'll save you the hassling of answering - you wouldn't.
If you genuinely accept any changes in the game without making an effort to oppose those you dissagree with, all this really shows is that you have little interest in the game at all. The developer has the last word on game changes, but the developer is not always right, and (at least hopefully) a developer's point of view on an issue is not set in stone. Public opinion, new information and well made arguments should have at least some influence on the direction of the game, through their influence on a developer. A developer may choose to ignore all of that, but that doesn't mean you can't try.
NS is not perfect, previous versions of NS were not perfect, new versions of NS will not be perfect. Patch changes will not be the best possible changes that can be made. At the same time, random people's opinions on the game in a forum are not gospel, neither are the opinions of a majority.
We are not always right.
Flayra is not always right.
All you can do is make your point, and whatever happens happens.
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OMG, levitation is too strong! Can't beat a levitate army!
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Not everyone can be blessed with the gift of common sense, the problem here is not the fact that people complain, its the fact that people are stupid. When its as obvious as that, what's the problem? If a few people are spouting nonsense you can safely ignore them. If it looks like they might manipulate the future of a game, then you better get in there and complain. In either case, people making an argument is not the issue. The question is only who is right (or more likely, who is 'righter').
Complaining about people who complain is hypocritical, and pointless. "Shut up and play the game" is a motto used by anyone when the situation suits them. Its the excuse, to avoid an argument about an issue on which you believe you are correct. Who is really right, you or the person 'complaining'?
You'd be wrong. The backstabbers are the ones who knew how to play, the rest of the community didn't. I loved jk2 when it first came out... every patch after that, slowly ruined the game. The problem was they actually listened to the majority of untalented players. Everything the whiners wanted, they actually got.
Repeater/Flak Cannon 2nd fire too much ammo! They up'ed it's cost.
DFA is too powerful! They stopped it from being rotated in the air.
Strong stance is too powerful! They slowed your movement speed during swinging.
Backstab too powerful! They lowered it's damage to that of a light stance swing.
Pull is too powerful! They made it useless, by allowing the knocked down "victim" more time to react than the guy who made the pull in the first place.
Absorb is too useless (initial release)! They got rid of the blue glow that gave it away... yet kept the sound of absorb so you could hear it. Along with lowering cost.
Drain is too powerful! Nerfed it making the darkside useless.
Rather than the whiners learning the counters to pull/backstab... they just moaned about it till it was nerfed.
They never learned how to use absorb (not like it was hard).
They never learned how to stagger their movement to "block" pull.
They never learned pull/saberthrow or force management.
They just whined. It got to the point, where saber combat was so watered down it became unfun to play. The only saving grace of JK2 is the saber combat. When that finally was destroyed, so was the community.
It didn't help that the weapons in the game (combined with force powers) were vastly superior to sabers in a FFA or CTF environment. Both of which, killing speed is more important than long drawn out saber battles. Newbies never realized you didn't have time to screw around with other light stance ballerinas... you'd either get backstabbed, DFA's, or killed with guns.
Blah... slightly off topic I guess <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I'll end rant now, since nobody hear probably has any clue what I'm talking about <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
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I'd say that as far as adaptive tactics are concerned, it's wise not to underestimate human creativity. Natural Selection is a good example of this. When it was discovered in 1.03 that Fades are capable of end game firepower in mid-game (2 hives), the Marines have adapted from their 1.02 tactic of securing resources and technology instead to securing the Hives and taking them over. Natural selection is flexible enough of a game that human adaptiveness had found a means to overcome the alien's two hive advantage: prevent the aliens from taking two hives at all.
The trouble is that this makes for a less entertaining game than it was before. No longer is it a battle over resources and technology - instead it's a armed race to see who can lock down two positions (hives) first, followed by a lull in which the other side tries (usually in vain) to try to take back one of those positions before the game ends. Thanks to human adaptiveness, it's playable, and it's reasonably balanced, but is it as fun as it was in 1.02? Back when "actually having to work when I played fade" was happening?
There is some good news here. I have been playing on some of the beta servers and I think things are a little more improved. Fades are still as nasty as before, but since they cost a bit more to evolve into the resources have become more important to hold for the aliens. It's still a game of controlling two hives, but with resources being that much more important, it's getting closer to where I'd like it.
people play a game and explore all of its nuances and strategy and whatnot until they win.
as they play the game more, they tend to center on what makes them win the <i>easiest</i> and with the <i>least effort on their part</i>.
they continue to focus on this so much that it soon becomes the only method of their play. i'll just take a random example and mention the Huntress rushers in warcraft 3. not an overpowered unit, but people often didn't know how to deal with this unit so Huntress rushing became extremely popular.
People are lazy. They want to win without lifting their finger.
Once people are so sucked into their regime of repetition, a change comes along and throws them off. People are afraid of change. I don't know why i welcome it (am i not human? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) and others abhor it.
People will whine once their established regime has been broken apart and they are forced to change.
Such is the mentality of the un-enlightened, basic grunt player.
I agree with you, kit, 110%. The only thing i don't agree on is the fact you are posting it here - the people that dwell here are already above the "un-enlightened, basic grunt player" level <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I guess that makes me a hypocrite for what i've put into my sig, heheh.
look at firewater's sig - n00bs whine, veterans adapt. you could not disprove that no matter how hard you tried <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
ahem
"newbs whine, veterans adapt" is a glorified version of "shut up and play the game". Its an excuse to avoid having to make a real argument on any subject. This statement means you couldn't give a **** how the game turns out. If everyone were to shut up and play the game, there would be no need for patches, no need for play testers.
To use this statement in-place of a gameplay argument is to state that the game is always perfect, and Flayra is always right, no matter what situation occurs. Or to state that no matter what happens to the game, or what Flayra desides to do, you don't care. This is of course utter crap.
But, firewater doesn't think the game is always perfect, and i imagine that he probably does care what happens to the gameplay.
I direct the following example to firewater: What happens when a particularly drastic change hits NS that you strongly dissagree with. Think back over the last 10 years or so and picture the worst game you have ever played. Now tell me, when 1.1 turns NS into that game, are you going to adapt? Most likely you'll say you're going to play another game. Now imagine you had an account on a forum which was read by the game developers (ahem) and that you (hopefully accompanied by the rest of the clan scene who would also object) had the ability to influence changes and avoid the destruction of a game which you obviously enjoy playing. Are you going to adapt, or are you going to try and implement some changes?
If only newbies complain, then its newbies who are making, testing and dictating the future of the games you play. You enjoy playing games made by newbies for newbies?
"n00bs whine, veterans adapt". Certainly sounds cool doesn't it. The problem is it only holds up as long as nothing drastic changes that you dissagree with. You can brush off new players who make comments like "OMG walls of lame are sooo lame!!!" by telling them to shut up and adapt. As long as the game roughly follows your ideals you can use it as a cop out of any argument, because you don't want to have to explain to the clueless masses why they don't know what they're talking about. As an experienced clan player (or a veteran), 90% of the time you can get away with this sort of statement, because in general you are the one who knows what you're talking about, looking down on a bunch of newbs. The problem is, you know you aren't going to stick to it as soon as everything goes horribly wrong and the game doesn't seem quite so great anymore.
To look at the bunnyhopping debate as a perfect example. In 1.03 i could replace all of my pro-hopping arguments with "n00bs whine, veterans adapt" or "shut up and play the game". Because in 1.03, hopping is in the game. Is my statement right just because hopping is currently in the game? No, that implies that the game is always right. As soon as 1.04 is released, everyone who was anti-hopping in 1.03 can suddenly replace all their arguments with "SUYF newb, adapt and play the game". Are they suddenly right just because the state of the game has changed? What a load of crap. If you stand by "n00bs whine, veterans adapt" you must then be neither pro- nor anti- hopping, and don't really care how the game turns out.
If NS were always perfect no matter what happened to it, the only people complaining would be the newbs who don't yet understand how the game balance works, or haven't reached the level of skill where they can appreciate why things are how they are. And there would never be any need to adapt. If NS were a comercial game, that you had no ability to influence at all, and after spending your cash, had no worth to the manufacturer that you could leverage, complaining would be pointless. And adapting would take the form of going to play something else. NS isnt perfect, and it isnt commericial. The purpose of a complaint is to implement change, to make something better. Not every complaint is valid, but in this environment a valid complaint can implement a change. If you have the ability to make something better and you don't take it, you are an idiot - fancy sig or no fancy sig.
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i'll just take a random example and mention the Huntress rushers in warcraft 3. not an overpowered unit, but people often didn't know how to deal with this unit so Huntress rushing became extremely popular.
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I'll just add a comment on this in here, WC3 is a great example for this thread if you're familiar with the game. In early versions of WC3 when tactics were still evolving, most people used quite simple builds which focused on tier 1 units. The trend for elf players at the time was to mass huntresses, the huntress build was popularized at the top level of play, and the strat filtered down untill it was used by players at the mid/low level of the ladder. At the time, strong builds for other races had not been fully worked out, the huntress was a pretty decent tier 1 unit, and huntress massing became a popular and powerful strat. Because it was so popular, lots of players were winning with it, and of course lots of players were losing to it, players on forums began screaming nerf. Now several patches down the line, the huntress has not changed significantly but you barely see them anymore, and no one really considers them to be particularly powerful. The complaints about the huntress were shown to be premature and ill informed.
Now i'll take another example - Orcs. In earlier builds, the orc shamen had a powerful primary attack, good health and was extremely cheap, this combined with the rest of the orc race being weak lead to all orc builds focusing around shamen massing. Complaints and reasoned arguments against the state of orcs were made by top level players, (veterans) and the orcs were subsequently changed. This turned out to be a good change, as the orc race is now much more interesting to play as or against. Going from one of the most limited races stratwise to one of the most varied.
Goes to show how important complaining can be to the state of a game. As for veterans not whining, the whines that come from veterans are more often than not the most important.