A Comparision Between How Ns Is Now...

Question · January 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">And flay's vision.</div> Flay's vision :

Marines get 1 hive,get RTs,tech up to HMG/HA and something like level 2 weapons and armor,aliens get fades,all out battle for 2nd hive starts.

NS now : Marines get 2 hives and aliens cant get the 2nd hive,aliens lose or aliens get 2 hives and marines cant take the 2nd hive,marines lose.

If the marine team got 1 hive and tried to tech up to HMG/HA,they would be LITERALLY OVERRUNED by fades before they got it AND enough res for an 3-4 marines,FORGET about 7 marines(standard 16 player server).

Consider this.....marines have no cheap,anti-building weapons in the early game.Thus 2-3 OCs can easily delay a marine team who is trying to take a hive/RT.Long enough for skulks to wait till marines start reloading,rush out...CHOMP CHOMP CHOMP.

In the latest version of 1.04,fades get their cost increased.Thats a step in the right direction.But i wonder........

Would it still be sucide for marines to get 1 hive and tech up?

XCan · January 2003

When I command I sometimes go 1 hive then tech ha/hmg. The Aliens usually get fades 3 mins before I can equip my team with ha/hmg. Then the aliens are litterally whopped, because we own 90% of the res noz on the map.... But I have to agree that it's silly that it's nearly impossible for the aliens to take back one hive if the marines have made a turret farm there with <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='skulk.gif'>

Ollj · January 2003

hives are too imporant in the game compared to ressources <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='sad.gif'>

Nemesis_Zero · January 2003

Just so I know - when did Flayra tell you this was his vision?

MasterEvilAce · January 2003

Also, in all the games I play, people are more experienced, and, they usually tech rush of some type

IE:
Jetpack/ lmg
Jetpack/HMG
Jetpack /Shotty
jetpack/ welder
HA/ something
HA/HMG (can be done, but harder to equip everyone)
CC, IP rush (a lot harder)

the way i see it, it's possible for the marines to tech up TOO fast, and aliens will just be making the second hive (if that) as the marines are rushing their hive. Or, they don't tech up fast enough, and it's FADE/LERK vs level 1,2 LMG's

The rare games also come up.. i was playing BAST, and marines could NOT get out of their base. Aliens had us crammed in like .. something in a can..

they had onos pretty much, and we were just in our base, still. couldn't build anything or reload because we'd get constantly pounded.

but, usually, marines have it easier.

BTW--- Yes, it is possible to get HMG within 5 minutes of the game... i've had this pulled on me multiple times on public servers.. ugh, what a pain.
"Oh nos they have HMGs!" "omg quick get a second D chamber! what? No res! OMG! damn the marine's 100resources that they can spend in anyway from the beginning! damn them to hellll!"

Sevendashseven · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 20 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Just so I know - when did Flayra tell you this was his vision?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I'd like to know this too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Doombringer · January 2003

I think he's theorizing about the 'vision' thing. I also think he's fairly accurate in his assumption - the game seems intended towards an exciting mid-game battle between some of the finest 'evolutions' of each species. As others have said, the reality of the game is that hives are more important than res nodes, and the battles.. though arguably equally exciting.. tend to occur in the marine spawn and the first hive the marines take in a rush attempt, or similarly in the alien's initial hive.

That doesn't make NS a bad game or any less fun, but it does change the scope of the game. I've seen less rushing nowadays and I'm glad for it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='smile.gif'>

Jaml · January 2003

Yeah some things got wrong. Its the big gap between basic and advanced/2. hive tech. A skulk has no chance against ha/hmg and a basic marine has no chance against a fade.(Its very rare that a high tech guy gets owned by a basic character) And since its very rare that both teams reach the powerfull things at the same time the team that gets them faster usually wins.(Mostly aliens) Ha must be nerfed the same goes for fades. For example: Skulks can kill ha in 6 bites and fades can shoot max 3 acid rockets with adrenaline. That would give the basic units a chance but still giving the team an advantage. Sure ha/fades must become cheaper 15/40 maybe then it would be fine. And to prevent a 2 hive secured = sure win situation just give the turrets the same weak spot that oc have. If you strafe around the corner only partially they miss. So lerks would have a use early on and comms need to keep some grunts at the hive to keep it safe. Something must be done because as soon as 1 team gets the cool stuff its usually over so you spend most of your ns time as basic units fighting over a second hive.

Question · January 2003

Some beta testers have said,numerous time,that the game is "designed to be balanced at a 2 hive stage,with marines having ha/hmg and aliens having fades".

Now since flay is the CEO of the dev team.........

Now,i remember this time i tried to tech up instead of cramming 2 hives with turrets (btw getting the resources for a turret farm needs INSANE amounts of time in a normal game.How the hell did you let them get it?).At some point,i had like um........4-5 RTs with standard turret configs and was doing arms lab thingy,and lerks were annoying the TFs SO MUCH........reinforcements to that area got chomped by skulks hiding on roofs,behind corners,whatever......then they got fades and we lost ALL our outposts.At this point,we had 2 ha/hmg/welder guys compared to 7 fades.Since no outposts = no res = no ha/hmg/welder,we got OWNED completely.

Btw rushes are extremely lame.Im sure NS wasnt designed to be a "rush only" game.......

Oh yes HMGs within 5 minutes.Ive had it happen to me once.4-6 marines rushed sewer hive with shotguns and HMGs.Ambushed them.They wasted a few shotguns and HMGs then.Then they killed everyone and started shooting the hive.Probelm was,the hive was fully healed by then.That kinda helped.And our skulks kept respawning and we sometimes caught people reloading.We owned them.They had no res whatsoever left,their base was COMPLETELY DEFENCELESS.Rushed in with skulks,we won.

Archuxerizer · January 2003

A simple solution would be restricting building. In Star Craft the Protoss for example have the pylons and the Zerg have the sticky slime thing. You would have to link these buildings in order to be allowed to build in a hive room. That way rushing would do no good.

Paq · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Question @ Jan 19 2003, 06:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Would it still be sucide for marines to get 1 hive and tech up?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I think not. Many pub server games marines have won, because they have one hive locked up and about 3-4 res towers up. They dont even use money for trying to siege one hive down, instead they just starts to tech. First weapon power to level 2, then maybe armor at same level. With those upgrades marines can hold fades sometimes pretty long. Same time there is HA, hmg upgrade going. Equip whole team at the same time and they are almost unstoppable, when they move at 3-4 groups and keeps welding each others.

Bigwig · January 2003

I don't know about your vision or Flayra's, but I know that I want NS to have more of a balanced mid-high game. Right now the only real fun conflicts are in the low end game, when skulks and marines are evenly matched with no clear advantages on either side. By the time mid game comes along one side always has a clear advantage, and the rest of the game focuses on this team slowly eliminating the other team. I would like to see NS become more of a tug-of-war, where no team ever has a clear advantage for the entire game (unless there's an incompetant commander or gorge).

Basically, I want to see onos battles and third hive abilities used in actual gameplay, not just as a way to finish off the marine final base and end the game.

Question · January 2003

Huh?

The aliens LET you have 3-4 RTs when they have FADES and LERKS(umbra)?

That is incredibly stupid.

Ravlen · January 2003

Right now, on my favorite server, 85% of the time it is exactly what you guys are describing. The aliens get two hives, the marines get a hive and a base. All out fighting all over the map as aliens attack bases and upgraded marines attack hives. Sometimes a squad of fades will take everyone out (often with lerk / gorge support)... Other times, a squad of HA/HMG/GL will clean up. It varies from game to game.

but, with experienced players that don't do lame things like HMG rush, it often makes it to that point. It has been very fun. Generally, the aliens get more res, since it is hard to tech up, and maintain multiple res points at the same time. Which is fine, since generally the aliens need more RT (IMHO). The marines usually have 3-4, the aliens prolly have 4-5. Overall, it is good gaming.

Ravlen

Evildwarf · January 2003

Many RTS games go more for countertroops, by this it means that some troops have a bigger advantage against other troops
either with damage or/and defense. At this time NS only have weapon to weapon counters, for example, GL counters Umbra.
I don't know if a troop counter troop system would work well in a FPS game though, the best example of this kind of system is
in the RTS game Strifeshadow (Atleast I think it's named Strifeshadow, it failed pretty much on the market though. I think people
had to high expectations on this game.)

Bigwig · January 2003

Counter units sound good. I was thinking about a bio suit, or a bio upgrade of some kind. It would negate/reduce the effects of parasite and acid splash damage (direct hits do full damage), and since it's a bio suit it would slightly reduce the effects of spores, healing spray, gorge spit, maybe OC spit, and reduce the length of webbing and paralysis by half. Basically all biological stuff gets effected. This would cause fades to have to use the blink/claw method (highly underused), instead of bombarding marines with acid rockets from a safe distance.

This should go into suggestions, shouldn't it?

nicuss · January 2003

Someone mentioned it above, and I'll repeat. The biggest problem is the huge gap between level 1 and level 2 on both sides. If you reach level 2 before the other then its game over. Not good. That's why all the fighting is done at lvl 1 most of the time, rather than lvl 2 as it should.

Solution: nerf lvl 2 on both sides, make HA/HMG/GL/fades weaker and cheaper. It'll be much better for the gameplay, people won't feel so compelled to go in all-or-nothing for that second hive.

geldonyetich · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sevendashseven @ Jan 19 2003, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 20 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Just so I know - when did Flayra tell you this was his vision?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I'd like to know this too <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Ditto here. I don't make assumptions about what Flayra's vision is. Real nice way to repay him for making a fantastic mod there.

That said, yes things are currently a matter of He Who Holds Two Hives Wins.

I would go so far as to say I think it'd be a more interesting game if resources are more important to the extent that holding mid-map resources would be a pivotal factor of who wins.

Question · January 2003

BUMPZ0R.

Frogg2 · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (geldonyetich @ Jan 20 2003, 06:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I would go so far as to say I think it'd be a more interesting game if resources are more important to the extent that holding mid-map resources would be a pivotal factor of who wins.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
They are...

Deltron_Z · January 2003

I played about half a dozen games today and I was a marine each time. In at least half of those games, the marines got HA/HMG and aliens got fades almost the same time. This resulted in a 30 minute see-saw battle. It was only when we built seige cannons that we could push past the fades into the hive. There were about 8 marines vs about 6 fades (i think, never saw them all it was a 30 man server.) The battles were fun challenging until we resorted to seiges. Out of the 6 games i played, marines won them all, and dominated 3 of them.

MedHead · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 19 2003, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Just so I know - when did Flayra tell you this was his vision?</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
<b>COMEDY GOLD.</b>

The 2nd hive is obviously important to both teams, since 2 hives for aliens means fades, and 2 hives for marines means 3/4 control of the map (and therefore near victory).

But games can still be turned around and won by the one hive team. I've seen it both ways. I think it's fine right now. The little 'bug' fixes that the updates are dealing with are what the game needs. Right now, I am satisfied with the gameplay, so I don't think any large changes are needed.

CrazedMonkOnaMission · January 2003

rushing in strategy games is to slow down the other teams "teching" or "expanding," indirectly. Because you fear a rush from the other team you can't just drop nodes all over on maps, or skip infrantry portals, armory, tf, portals whatever to get heavy armor or upgrades faster. Or just wait for R to get both hives (skipping chambers all together)

littlewild · January 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nicuss @ Jan 20 2003, 01:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Someone mentioned it above, and I'll repeat. The biggest problem is the huge gap between level 1 and level 2 on both sides. If you reach level 2 before the other then its game over. Not good. That's why all the fighting is done at lvl 1 most of the time, rather than lvl 2 as it should.

Solution: nerf lvl 2 on both sides, make HA/HMG/GL/fades weaker and cheaper. It'll be much better for the gameplay, people won't feel so compelled to go in all-or-nothing for that second hive.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Already being addressed in 1.04
Fades are made more expensive and they retain their current set of statistics, except the acid rocket splash area is reduced. It sounds like a right step.

Inexorable · January 2003

Does anybody else find it odd to have a thread of Flayra's vision of NS, without Flayra having posted in it?

A Comparision Between How Ns Is Now...

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