<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Jan 20 2003, 02:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Jan 20 2003, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When A Game ceases to be fun, I bring the console down and type quit. NS has ceased to be fun, So I'm not playing a single game until 1.04 comes out...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So... a game is only fun if you win? How weak minded. You lost because you did not do enough to counter the other team's strategy, the blame for your loss lies on you and your team. If don't like the idea of being responsible for the outcome of a game, you may be better off playing snakes and ladders. At least there when you lose you can blame it on the dice instead of your lack of ability right?
In the time it takes a marine team to research jetpacks you have the following options open to you:
Offense chambers in the hive Lerks, using spine shooter to easily kill a LA jetpacker Rushing the marine base and delaying tech by taking out key buildings Scouting and predicting the incoming jetpacker, and ambushing him in a location where you can easily kill him. Before he gets into your wide open hive room.
In the time it takes for marines to build up enough resources for multiple JPs, upgrades, scanner and health spamming, a turret farm and a siege:
You have had ample time to get fades going had you been capable of securing a hive. You have had more than enough time to tower up your hive and make JP attacks near-impossible.
If you cannot get fades in the time it takes for marines to reach this point, you have lost to a superior team who prevented your expansion. And jetpacks/health spamming/whatever was a relatively unimportant method for the marine team to wrap up a game they had bagged with their earlier play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The issue of 'Jetpackers not touching the ground' is to some extent a bug that'll be fixed in 1.04 <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh joy, more crippling of movement skills, thankyou halflife community!
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 20 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 20 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh joy, more crippling of movement skills, thankyou halflife community!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.
If you understand what I'm referencing, good for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--D'Artagnan+Jan 20 2003, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D'Artagnan @ Jan 20 2003, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> *Launches a sheep at D'Artagnan*
Edit: Actually, worms 2 onwards had some pretty interesting movement in the form of ninja rope/parachute/other non-turn ending move combinations. Swinging in just the right way to flick yourself backwards over a pillar, releasing in the air to send you flying across the level, firing out another rope mid-air to grab a ledge above another worm, then dropping dynamite on his head midswing and bouncing off to safety was kind of cool.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 20 2003, 06:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 20 2003, 06:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *Launches a sheep at D'Artagnan*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know, I actually wasn't talking about Worms... Go back a few years... But wow, i guess Worms does have banana throwing! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--D'Artagnan+Jan 20 2003, 06:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D'Artagnan @ Jan 20 2003, 06:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You know, I actually wasn't talking about Worms... Go back a few years... But wow, i guess Worms does have banana throwing! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And velocity/wind/angle checks :)
but im intruiged now, trying to recall what you would be referring to. I'm guessing whatever it is was probably based more off 'tanks' than worms, if it pre-dates worms. I can recall cow wars, but that was cows not bananas :)
OK, I generally avoid posting on topics like this, but I have two things to say:
1. Once researched, JPs are very cheap. Its very akward for the aliens to have to invest the time and resources to build offense chambers on top of a hive, in earlyish stages of the game and resources are scarce. There is a good chance the com won't bother reserching JPs, and that means all that time and resources are wasted by the aliens. But by the time the Jet Packer has arrived, its too late to do anything unless the second hive is up. So the aliens are forced to spend lots of time building OTs on top of the hive, just in case.
2. I don't see how JPs are supposed to work in a team based manner. I have never seen more than 2 jetpackers in the same room, and they weren't really working as a team, just flying around randomly trying to shoot anything that moved. I find it strange that such a blatant rambo piece of equipment was included, when at every other stage rambos have been discouraged. Not saying it should be removed, but I'd like to see it changed so it is more of a team based idea.
Now, I'd just like to add that I haven't seen this often enough to call it a problem - I play mainly on Pub servers. And maybe those changes Flarya hinted at for Lerks in 1.1 will make it a viable 1 hive alien which would be half decently able to stop a JPer.
Why does everyone keep posting that if an alien team is defeated by a JP rush, it's because they suck? Have you ever seen a JP rush? Let me tell you a story: commander secures one or two res nodes (aliens naturally don't pay attention, as he's not going for any hives), builds arm lab and prototype lab, researches JP, and gives his buddy a JP and a welder. By this time the second hive is probably going up, so his little buddy flies there first. This guy stays in mid-air where the skulks can't reach him (or, if it's a hive where this works, gets on top of the hive and crouches), and welds the hive to death. He basically has forever as the only damage comes from gorge spits and parasites (and maybe occasional lerks), and the comm supplies him with health to prevent those from killing him. Since he doesn't use ammo to kill the hive (he uses his welder), he has plenty of ammo to take out attacking gorges and lerks, and skulks simply can't reach him. After the unbuilt hive is dead, he goes to the original hive, gets on top of it or flies around close to it (so that OCs inside the hive can't hit him), and welds that to death too. Meanwhile, the other marines keep the res points and the main base defended. Is this really how NS is meant to be played? And what exactly would a GOOD alien team do against this strat? Grow wings? You can only go lerk so many times before you're out of res.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So... a game is only fun if you win? How weak minded. You lost because you did not do enough to counter the other team's strategy, the blame for your loss lies on you and your team. If don't like the idea of being responsible for the outcome of a game, you may be better off playing snakes and ladders. At least there when you lose you can blame it on the dice instead of your lack of ability right?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, let me get this straight, it's our fault the marines were invincible due to health spam? It's our fault one guy could fly past all our defences?
What the JP rambo was doing was not art, last time I checked, sneaking in was the aliens job. Strategy involves thought, a plan, a logical sequence of events. He just grabbed a JP and did as he wished, that is not strategy. In starcraft, it's absurd for one marine to destroy an entire enemy base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the time it takes a marine team to research jetpacks you have the following options open to you:
1. Offense chambers in the hive 2. Lerks, using spine shooter to easily kill a LA jetpacker 3. Rushing the marine base and delaying tech by taking out key buildings 4. Scouting and predicting the incoming jetpacker, and ambushing him in a location where you can easily kill him. Before he gets into your wide open hive room.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Not Enough Resources
2. Not Enough Resources (if you've played on a 26 player server, it takes ages just to fill)
3. Not possible, they had a nice little turret farm protecting their base, and occluding access to their base
4. Tried it, they were setting up a base just outside his access port
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the time it takes for marines to build up enough resources for multiple JPs, upgrades, scanner and health spamming, a turret farm and a siege:
You have had ample time to get fades going had you been capable of securing a hive. You have had more than enough time to tower up your hive and make JP attacks near-impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had the second hive up before the Jetpacker came in, but just before any significant portion of the team could get enough resources to get fade, "The Hive Is Dying" came up, from 43 back down to 33. It was only ONE single JP, with a HMG. He camped in the vent near comp core, where it was impossible to get to him without being turned into so much green slime on the wall. And Alien turrets are almost completely ineffective when dealing with jetpackers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you cannot get fades in the time it takes for marines to reach this point, you have lost to a superior team who prevented your expansion. And jetpacks/health spamming/whatever was a relatively unimportant method for the marine team to wrap up a game they had bagged with their earlier play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, we were the superior team. We controlled most of the map (Maint, Comp, Keyhole, Southloop, Horseshoe) and patrolled a good deal of it near their spawn and at eclipse. Marine deaths were everywhere, we had good communications and were doing good. A difference of 2 minutes would have made the difference between winning and losing, that I dont mind, the fact that one marine can turn the entire outcome of a game? That, I DO mind. Marines are about teamwork, arent they?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So... a game is only fun if you win? How weak minded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game is fun, when both sides are in a tug of war, with the balance swinging like a pendulum. It ceases to be fun, when some ridiculous factor, such as, half the marine team dropping out, comes into play. The JP marine was one such ridiculous factor in that particular match. I tell you how I know when a match becomes ridiculous? When no one says a thing in the ready room. Strange but true, when the marines take a full hour to take out the hive, no one says anything in the RR, when aliens take a while to kill the last marine, no one says a thing, when half of the winning team f4's it all at once resulting in loss, no one says a thing. Silence, absolute silence until a new round begins and strategies begin to flow.
>> If you understand what I'm referencing, good for you.
OH yer baby!! QBASIC ALL DAH WAYYYYYYY!!!!
I can't believe someone else liked those damn monkeys!
Cronos has some points people. JP rush is unstoppable on some maps. Not 'hard to counter', impossible to beat. The marines can forgo all else and just get 3 JPs out before the fades, and gg. It actually isn't that hard to do.
It is abusable and uncounterable, it needs a patch change. I am NOT sure of the best approach - crippling JP movement or usefulness is not what I had in mind. Maybe have the hives web cast around themselves, or make JPers have to touch the ground to refuel, or maybe simply make JPs as expensive as HA, meaning that kitting a team with them is not rushable - you can't rush to full heavy tech and win without playing the res/hive game, I think the same rule should apply to the JPs.
Health spam...bah, that is not an issue. It can be frustrating, but sneh, deal, it isn't game breaking, and it has downsides - it doesn't make marines invulnerable gods any game they want.
Scan spam is ok, it just lags you - at 3 res a pop (I think 5 is fairer personally) it won't happen as much.
matsoMaster of PatchesJoin Date: 2002-11-05Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Jan 20 2003, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Jan 20 2003, 06:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2. Not Enough Resources (if you've played on a 26 player server, it takes ages just to fill) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> LOL - a 26 player server? 13v13? That's your problem right there. Stop complaining about JP's. Starting complaining about a resource system that goes totally out of whack on larger servers.
It takes a REALLY bad marine team to loose a 13v13 game. They can do the LMG rush and win by spawn rate, or they can do the 2 hive lockdown, or they can do the tech race.
Notice that in a 13v13 game, the marines get 39.9 res per minute from their starting node? While a single gorge is getting about 8 res per minute? The marines are earning 5 times the income of a single gorge.
Compare that to a 6v6 game. The marines start out with 23.8 res, while the gorge gets 9 res. About 2.5 times the income of a single gorge.
In practice, it's even worse. With the increased marine income, they can cap res nodes much faster in larger games as well, accentuating their res advantage even further.
As the marines don't have any per-marine costs, all these extra resources can be used to speed up the research. At 70 resources per minute with just one extra res node, racing up the tech tree is FAST (do notice that this is MORE than a team of 4 marines gets if they hold 6(!) res nodes. And they STILL pay the same amount to do the SAME research).
You think it is any wonder that the marines can just TOY with the aliens in large games?
You are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is not that jetpacks are good, the problem is the marine resource model.
Go play on 8v8 servers instead. There, the marines have a hard time getting jetpacks before the 2nd hive is up.
A turret farm in their base, A turret farm near maintenace, A siege at maintenace, A base outside whatever hive it was that the jetpacker went to, Arms lab, protolab, jetpack research, jetpack equipped marines, upgraded armoury, HMGs, Enough spare resources to spam med packs and scans.
You have apparently got control of a large portion of the map, giving you access to resource nodes and containing the marines resource expansion....
And you can't afford offense chambers? You can't afford a lerk? The marines are at the JP/HMG gun stage and you're still using skulks? They didn't fast tech either as they have forward bases and turret farms.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Alien turrets are almost completely ineffective when dealing with jetpackers. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not true, while its possible to dodge in the air and avoid most of the shots from a single turret, a couple of turrets will deal enough damage over time to a jetpacker that it makes it very difficult for him to assault a hive.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's our fault one guy could fly past all our defences? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it's our fault the marines were invincible due to health spam? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No
But more importantly, its your fault that you let either of these things result in the loss of the game. 1 marine health spammed by a commander can be temporarily invincible assuming multiple skulks do not hit him at once. 1 temporarily invincible marine for the cost of a large amount of res and alot of commander attention is not god. Once the armour is gone the commander is spending the equivalent of 3 res per skulk bite... There are methods of avoiding the situation you described, you did not use them, next time your team might know better. I did not say you are a newb for losing, i said you lost because you did not play as well as you could have done.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Strategy involves thought, a plan, a logical sequence of events. He just grabbed a JP and did as he wished, that is not strategy <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From what you described, it appears the marine team moved to secure eclipse, then sent a jetpacker diversion to harrass a hive while they set up a siege base outside maintenance.... sounds like a pretty good strategy to me.
You did not prevent them from taking eclipse, you did not prevent them from getting a base near maintenance, and you did not deal adequately with the harassment. Aliens have been killing jetpack users since the game was released, no one has suddenly altered the game to make them invulnerable. If you were against a damn near incredible jetpacker, then all credit to him, he outplayed you - after his team out manouvered you. Credit to the commander who recognised the ability of mr. jetpacker and used him in a dummy move to secure a hive. Do you know that he was just flying around randomly doing what he liked?
Given that the 2nd hive is up, you even have access to leap. Is it too much of a hassle to use your abilities? You can complain about individual skill all you like, but NS in its current state requires you to at least be able to aim and move in a respectable manner. If you aren't anywhere near the skill of another player, you are probably going to lose to him, be he a jetpacker, regular marine, skulk gorge or onos. NS doesn't reward skill nearly as much as some other games, but there are rewards. If you really think the only reason you lost the game was because of a single jetpacker, he must of been a hell of a lot better than all of you....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And kindly keep your insults to yourself... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kindly keep your dictionary links to yourself.
There is only one thing in your post which suggests an unfair advantage to the marine side - you mentioned it was a 26 player server (edit: and matso has beaten me to it). This is a rather silly number of players for the current version of NS, as the flaws in the resource systems give marines a large advantage in big games. (And aliens get the advantage in smaller games) This is not to say you can't get around it. In a large game it may be prudent to use multiple gorges, so that more of the teams res can be put into building structures. With 2-3 gorges, half or more of the teams res would be going to gorges, who would then have no problem putting up some of those OC chambers that you apparently couldn't afford. After a few structures are down, 2 of the gorges can switch back to skulk and have their extra res go to the remaining gorge. Find your own counters to tactics by exploring every facet of the game, if stopping jetpack marines on a 26 player server requires you to use the flawed 'donation' trick to get around the flawed resource system then so be it. Frankly i don't think there are any matchups where 1 race is incapable of beating the other given the right strategy and enough skill.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why does everyone keep posting that if an alien team is defeated by a JP rush, it's because they suck? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No one posted that, the argument was that the outcome of the game is in your own hands. Unless you truely believe its impossible for aliens to beat a JP rush, then any alien team that loses to a JP rush lost because they didn't play well enough/were outplayed.
JP marines are a bit too effective on certain maps.
Generator hive on caged is really difficult to get on top of as a skulk and to shoot at with lerk spines. Sat Comm on Tanith and Computer core are really bad as they can both be shot from a vent. If a JP marine gets in there with a HMG your hive is dead, no questions asked, at one hive stage. I'm sure theres other hives which are as bad.
It's really only a problem when the marines rush for JPs and HMGs. It usually forges capturing any hives as a drawback as you need the res.
However, from your post Cronos, you had more than enough time to get that second hive up. You got beat by superior technology. Something is wrong with what you've told us. They'd secured eclipse, teched to JPs and still had enough resources to siege maintenance whilst supplying rambos to take out CC, all on 2 res nodes ? Not being insultive, but what was your team doing ? Either you sat around for ages doing nothing or they had way more then 2 res nodes. I understand it was a 26 player server but still......something doesn't add up. I play on a 20 player server and it couldn't happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh! The days when a 286 was cutting edge! King's Quest 1 and that BASIC banana throwing game whiled away many a hour when I was younger.
They may have had a third one tucked away, not too sure, but we DID get the second hive up, temporarily, but like I said, they took it out before anyone could fade. I've used the NSres calculator to do some math, the marines, with 13 players per side and 3 RT's get about 3 RP's per second. In one minute, this would amount to 180 Resources per minute. This amounts to 520 Resources for the approximate time we had the hive, more then enough, and not counting previous time in which they had to build up and research earlier.
We had enough resources to start the hive going several times, the problem was the JP'er kept coming back and destroying the hive. I guess the problem was with the gorges not building any OC's in the hive room, but it wouldnt have mattered, it was comp core and like Phoenix said, the hive is very susceptible to JP rambo...
On a lighter note, I do remember that gorillas game, fun fun fun, CIV1 rocked much better then any of it's descendants in all respects, say, does anyone remember a game called Major Stryker?
Teoh is 100% correct in his analysis - if you have lost the map you have lost the game, and don't blame JPs or HA or GL or turrets or siege or gates any other damn thing - you lost the map, you lost the game.
Except for this point:
>> This is not true, while its possible to dodge in the air and avoid most of the shots from a single turret, a couple of turrets will deal enough damage over time to a jetpacker that it makes it very difficult for him to assault a hive
Actually, a JPer can simply fly above the firing angle of the offence chamber. And it is very simple to roofskate past most choke point defenses. Sorry Te, but this is a problem with the JP, not the defenders' play.
Worse, any damage done to the JPer can be negated by health spam.
If thats not enough have a gorge sit amongst the def chambers and heal the hive.
Oh no! suddenly the hive is invincible till mr JPer gets down there and kills the def chambers.
Tbh though its really does sound like you let them tech rush you without you having a fkin clue what a tech rush is.
The second you have two hives JPers are not gonna work because of web. I just read the above post that states quite plainly you DID HAVE two hives albiet briefly. So why didn't you web him down?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In a large game it may be prudent to use multiple gorges, so that more of the teams res can be put into building structures<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you ever actually played aliens? Sure, having multiple gorges will increase the res going into building, but that entire effect is completely scrrewed by the fact it will take you ten minutes to put down the first resource node. And having to have several gorges around the same point so enough resources can be put into defending that point is hugely crippling for aliens - having 2 to 4 players hanging around the same place only building an OT every minute or so really isn't worth it. The resource system is rubbish for aliens at the moment, and there is not much aliens can do about it. Perhaps if a proportion (say 50%) of resources was always split among gorges, and the rest went among the other players, it would work better. Also, using leap against a JetPacker? I would be surprised if anyone thinks you can do this consistently (hard to hit, doesn't do enough damage, JPer can shoot you while you fly through the air). Anyway, I'd like to change the subject of this thread slightly - from the situation the original post was on (just to say it sounds like they were doing surprisingly well in such a large game) to the fact that marines can get JPs a lot quicker than aliens can get 2nd hive (I don't have figures, how does this compare), and aliens have no efficient way to counter JPs at this stage. Lerks cost too much, OTs cost too much/akward to get in a useful place, skulks cannot close the distance
Fact - Evildwarf's previous post is completly irrelevant to the the topic, as well as being untrue. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have you ever actually played aliens? Sure, having multiple gorges will increase the res going into building, but that entire effect is completely scrrewed by the fact it will take you ten minutes to put down the first resource node. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't say multiple gorges was a super-strat that you should be doing in every game, i said it was a way to get resources to defend a hive against a jetpacker... which was the whole point of the paragraph.
In a normal game you do want to start by stockpiling alot of res on 1 gorge so you can afford your 2nd hive as quickly as possible, but we're not talking about a normal game. We're talking about midway into a 26 player pub game where the marines are going to make a cowboy JP attack on your hive and for some inexplicable reason you have no res...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> using leap against a JetPacker? I would be surprised if anyone thinks you can do this consistently (hard to hit, doesn't do enough damage, JPer can shoot you while you fly through the air) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The damage isnt dealt by the leap, its dealt by bite - either an aerial bite, or simply by using leap to reach a wall/cieling near the jetpacker. A jetpacker can move very quickly from high to low, forcing a skulk to dash to the nearest wall, run up then along the cieling to reach him, at which point a JP'er can simply move down again and to the side. Leap lets you go from floor to cieling faster than a JP'er can, clear any distance in an insignificant amount of time, and jump as high as you want into the air. I've leap-killed by fair share of jetpackers. Ideally, write a leap script that quickly leaps and switches immediately back to bite - very useful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tbh though its really does sound like you let them tech rush you without you having a fkin clue what a tech rush is. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Reading the state the aliens were supposedly in when the jetpacker hit, all signs point to a tech rush. But if you look back through his posts, the marines actually had several turret farms and forward bases before the jetpack showed up. I don't think it was a tech rush at all, just exceptionally slow aliens. My definition of a tech rush being to forgo phases/turrets etc in favour of spending all your early res on tech.
TeoH, that was my conclusion as well. If the aliens had as many res points as Cronos said, they should have been putting OC/DC down for fun, and the hive should have been up ages ago.
The only explanation is that the marines were left to huddle and tech up whilst the aliens were over confident, capping every RT and not getting the hive up and defended.
Also, whilst I don't think large servers are really horrible to either side, any mistakes made by the aliens are magnified whilst it's the opposite with the marines, mainly due to the res system and the respawn times.
I would like to see an accurate timescale of events to put things into perspective but obviously thats impossible <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh joy, more crippling of movement skills, thankyou halflife community! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my comment again. It is a <i>bug</i>. Right now, some players can stay in the air forever, while others can barely leave the ground. This is being resolved. It has nothing to do with whining / complaining from the community, it's a bugfix. JPers will still be able to stay in the air for a while, but constant tap-flying will become much more critical.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jan 20 2003, 11:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 20 2003, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh joy, more crippling of movement skills, thankyou halflife community! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my comment again. It is a <i>bug</i>. Right now, some players can stay in the air forever, while others can barely leave the ground. This is being resolved. It has nothing to do with whining / complaining from the community, it's a bugfix. JPers will still be able to stay in the air for a while, but constant tap-flying will become much more critical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't make any distinction between bug or game element in this case. If skulks doing 75 damage per bite turned out to be a bug and they were originally intended to do 25, i wouldn't be calling for it to be "fixed".
But i get what you're talking about now - the jetpack physics varying greatly with your framerate. If you have a way around that then nicely done, but it poses the question of what you consider the real efficiency of jetpack fuel should be set to. Is every jetpacker suddenly going to turn into a 20fps lead weight, or a 70fps graceful hummingbird?
<!--QuoteBegin--Daemonlaud+Jan 21 2003, 02:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Daemonlaud @ Jan 21 2003, 02:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Worse, any damage done to the JPer can be negated by health spam.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure... if youre able to spam some health right on a jetpacker that you say is impossible to hit because he moves so much. Not to mention hes in the air, and if you miss it he probably wont go down to get it back since the ground is probably already crawling with aliens.
Also for whoever is saying that they won the game with "no teamwork" or by "ramboing" you are completely and entirely wrong. While Jetpacks ARE bugged as nemesiszero said, going inside a hive and trying to kill it by yourself CAN be teamwork, it depends on the situation at hand. For this particular game, i would certainly say you got beaten by an organized team rather than a Jetpacker.
Hmm, ok, send a rambo with a jetpack inside their hive, build a siege outpost right outside the hive while he distracts the aliens with a "hive is under attack" message, build your siege, build....build..... BOOM, sieges is done and you can kill the hive even if the "jetpacker of doom" couldnt manage. Yeah, no teamwork there.
I mean, really, who goes around distracting enemies to sneak in a blow behind them right?
The only thing thats wrong with this strategy is your definition of teamwork. While teamwork CAN be "two or more people in the same area working together" it can also be "two or more people in different places coordinating actions that can lead to the teams victory"
If that isnt teamwork, i guess nobody on a SWAT team, or special corps, or any kind of force of the such has any teamwork...
In regards to the Ramboing Marine - specifically JetPackers. I'd love to see a 'Morale' type system similar to that which is in Frontline Force. If you are in a squad, your aim and damage will be increased slightly, but if you are all alone it will be decreased. The damage you take could also be decreased/increased depending on the situation too. Possibly an extra cover-bonus when covering a person who is building a structure nearby.
I doubt something like that would be added this late, but it would be an interesting feature to try out, could increase teamplay a lot more.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 21 2003, 05:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 21 2003, 05:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Jan 20 2003, 11:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jan 20 2003, 11:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh joy, more crippling of movement skills, thankyou halflife community! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Read my comment again. It is a <i>bug</i>. Right now, some players can stay in the air forever, while others can barely leave the ground. This is being resolved. It has nothing to do with whining / complaining from the community, it's a bugfix. JPers will still be able to stay in the air for a while, but constant tap-flying will become much more critical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I really don't make any distinction between bug or game element in this case. If skulks doing 75 damage per bite turned out to be a bug and they were originally intended to do 25, i wouldn't be calling for it to be "fixed".
But i get what you're talking about now - the jetpack physics varying greatly with your framerate. If you have a way around that then nicely done, but it poses the question of what you consider the real efficiency of jetpack fuel should be set to. Is every jetpacker suddenly going to turn into a 20fps lead weight, or a 70fps graceful hummingbird?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good question. I'm going to risk a wild guess and say that it'll be around the current 60Fps performance, but that's just me pulling answers out of an unidentified bodypart.
I think that jetpacks are intended to give marines the mobility advantage that the aliens initially have, i.e. they are able to get into vents and higher locations (think the high platforms in NS_Nothing's powersilo). The jetpack marines should have enough fuel to get into a vent or to make a quick dodge or two away from a skulk, but not enough for sustained flight.
The lerk, on the other hand, should have flight for the purpose of attacking. They don't need flight for mobility, simply because a skulk is pretty much just as if not more mobile than a lerk. A lerk should be able to kill a jetpacker with relative ease. However, such is not the case.
Let's compare the resource values for the jetpacks and lerks:
To research the jetpack, you need around 120 res (arms lab + proto lab + research). Seems pretty fair. But as many people have already stated, marines don't need much time to get those resources. By the time any alien, excluding the gorges, gets 33 resources, the marines can be pumping out the jetpacks. And at that point, jetpacks only require 9 resources. 9 resources to 33...meh. Jetpackers have almost unlimited sustained, controlled flight; while the lerks have temporary, erratic flight. Marines can aim easily while in flight, lerks really can't. And that jetpacks will almost always kill the lerk, as well as any other alien.
Here's an interesting suggestion: nerf the lerk's spikes, and put the Onos's stun tentacles in their place. That would make the lerk a much, MUCH better anti-personal class. The lerk could stun a jetpacker who flies in to the hive (or anywhere else, for that matter) then swoop in for the kill. And coupled with fade in the two-hive situation, they could both provide umbra and stun marine attackers for easy fade pickings. The lerks wouldn't be able to slowly snipe and harass buildings anymore, but I think players could deal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.
If you understand what I'm referencing, good for you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cronos+Jan 20 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cronos @ Jan 20 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just came out of one of the lamest games I have ever played.
The marine team, used the following 3 tactics to beat us down.
1. Health spam
2. JP Whoring
3. Sensor Spam
A Single JP marine bypassed all our defenses multiple times to shoot the **** out of our second hive, just before we could get fades. He did it multiple times, and since aliens have no decent long range weapons, well, goodbye hive. More infuriating, the marine team cleared out our defenses, and under constant attack and healthspam, managed to build a damn base and siege out maintenance. Then, to top it off, he constantly sensor sweeped the hives and our locations, over and over and over.
The result? Lagging, weakened aliens fighting an unfair fight.
Sensor spam will probably be fixed in 1.04, with it's increase in cost, but for the love of god, lower the JP fuel, make marines have to actually TOUCH the ground to refuel, and put a limit on how often the marine commander can drop health, it's just ridiculous that I can chomp a marine constantly for 35 seconds before he notices me and shoots whilst sitting on a mountain of health.
I never thought I'd say this, I'm swearing off NS until 1.04 comes out proper, I feel cheated out of what may have been a good game...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm assuming that jet-packer had an LMG. Even on a half-dead Hive, at takes a LOT of bullets from an LMG to take it down. Why were there no OCs and/or DCs in with the hive ? You surely had enough time, since it takes a while for the Marines to have the time and resources to:
1) build a spawn 2) build an armory 3) build an arms lab 4) build a proto lab 5) research jet-packs
Never, ever assume a wall of lame will stop a marine. Even a non-jet-pack marine can get over them. I've personally hopped over many walls of lame, taking damage in the process, but living to tell about it. Also, a jet-pack marine is not that tough, so a single OC chamber in the hive could have take him down. Also, a gorge's primary (spit) weapon could have taken him down. A single DC chamber under the hive could have healed the hive. A singel DC chamber could have also healed a gorge shooting at the marine, or skulks parasting the dude. A single Lerk could have taken the marine out. I don't see a problem with the game itself, but with the lack of creativity on the Alien's part.
The only lame part is scanner sweep spamming. However, with it being increased from 1 res to 3 res in 1.04, this should fix it.
scanner sweet lags the marines just as much as it lags the aliens.. and a jper with 30fps drops like a fly.. i dont see how it helped them more then it helped you
<!--QuoteBegin--D'Artagnan+Jan 20 2003, 06:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D'Artagnan @ Jan 20 2003, 06:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Jan 20 2003, 06:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Jan 20 2003, 06:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh joy, more crippling of movement skills, thankyou halflife community!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.
If you understand what I'm referencing, good for you.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good old QBASIC Gorillia <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
My sister and I competed for hours on that game with a 286...
Comments
So... a game is only fun if you win? How weak minded. You lost because you did not do enough to counter the other team's strategy, the blame for your loss lies on you and your team. If don't like the idea of being responsible for the outcome of a game, you may be better off playing snakes and ladders. At least there when you lose you can blame it on the dice instead of your lack of ability right?
In the time it takes a marine team to research jetpacks you have the following options open to you:
Offense chambers in the hive
Lerks, using spine shooter to easily kill a LA jetpacker
Rushing the marine base and delaying tech by taking out key buildings
Scouting and predicting the incoming jetpacker, and ambushing him in a location where you can easily kill him. Before he gets into your wide open hive room.
In the time it takes for marines to build up enough resources for multiple JPs, upgrades, scanner and health spamming, a turret farm and a siege:
You have had ample time to get fades going had you been capable of securing a hive.
You have had more than enough time to tower up your hive and make JP attacks near-impossible.
If you cannot get fades in the time it takes for marines to reach this point, you have lost to a superior team who prevented your expansion. And jetpacks/health spamming/whatever was a relatively unimportant method for the marine team to wrap up a game they had bagged with their earlier play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The issue of 'Jetpackers not touching the ground' is to some extent a bug that'll be fixed in 1.04
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh joy, more crippling of movement skills, thankyou halflife community!
Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.
If you understand what I'm referencing, good for you.
*Launches a sheep at D'Artagnan*
Edit: Actually, worms 2 onwards had some pretty interesting movement in the form of ninja rope/parachute/other non-turn ending move combinations. Swinging in just the right way to flick yourself backwards over a pillar, releasing in the air to send you flying across the level, firing out another rope mid-air to grab a ledge above another worm, then dropping dynamite on his head midswing and bouncing off to safety was kind of cool.
*Launches a sheep at D'Artagnan*<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know, I actually wasn't talking about Worms...
Go back a few years...
But wow, i guess Worms does have banana throwing! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Go back a few years...
But wow, i guess Worms does have banana throwing! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And velocity/wind/angle checks :)
but im intruiged now, trying to recall what you would be referring to. I'm guessing whatever it is was probably based more off 'tanks' than worms, if it pre-dates worms. I can recall cow wars, but that was cows not bananas :)
1. Once researched, JPs are very cheap. Its very akward for the aliens to have to invest the time and resources to build offense chambers on top of a hive, in earlyish stages of the game and resources are scarce. There is a good chance the com won't bother reserching JPs, and that means all that time and resources are wasted by the aliens. But by the time the Jet Packer has arrived, its too late to do anything unless the second hive is up. So the aliens are forced to spend lots of time building OTs on top of the hive, just in case.
2. I don't see how JPs are supposed to work in a team based manner. I have never seen more than 2 jetpackers in the same room, and they weren't really working as a team, just flying around randomly trying to shoot anything that moved. I find it strange that such a blatant rambo piece of equipment was included, when at every other stage rambos have been discouraged. Not saying it should be removed, but I'd like to see it changed so it is more of a team based idea.
Now, I'd just like to add that I haven't seen this often enough to call it a problem - I play mainly on Pub servers. And maybe those changes Flarya hinted at for Lerks in 1.1 will make it a viable 1 hive alien which would be half decently able to stop a JPer.
Eater.
So, let me get this straight, it's our fault the marines were invincible due to health spam? It's our fault one guy could fly past all our defences?
<a href='http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Strategy' target='_blank'>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Strategy</a>
What the JP rambo was doing was not art, last time I checked, sneaking in was the aliens job. Strategy involves thought, a plan, a logical sequence of events. He just grabbed a JP and did as he wished, that is not strategy. In starcraft, it's absurd for one marine to destroy an entire enemy base.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the time it takes a marine team to research jetpacks you have the following options open to you:
1. Offense chambers in the hive
2. Lerks, using spine shooter to easily kill a LA jetpacker
3. Rushing the marine base and delaying tech by taking out key buildings
4. Scouting and predicting the incoming jetpacker, and ambushing him in a location where you can easily kill him. Before he gets into your wide open hive room.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. Not Enough Resources
2. Not Enough Resources (if you've played on a 26 player server, it takes ages just to fill)
3. Not possible, they had a nice little turret farm protecting their base, and occluding access to their base
4. Tried it, they were setting up a base just outside his access port
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the time it takes for marines to build up enough resources for multiple JPs, upgrades, scanner and health spamming, a turret farm and a siege:
You have had ample time to get fades going had you been capable of securing a hive.
You have had more than enough time to tower up your hive and make JP attacks near-impossible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We had the second hive up before the Jetpacker came in, but just before any significant portion of the team could get enough resources to get fade, "The Hive Is Dying" came up, from 43 back down to 33. It was only ONE single JP, with a HMG. He camped in the vent near comp core, where it was impossible to get to him without being turned into so much green slime on the wall. And Alien turrets are almost completely ineffective when dealing with jetpackers.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you cannot get fades in the time it takes for marines to reach this point, you have lost to a superior team who prevented your expansion. And jetpacks/health spamming/whatever was a relatively unimportant method for the marine team to wrap up a game they had bagged with their earlier play.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, we were the superior team. We controlled most of the map (Maint, Comp, Keyhole, Southloop, Horseshoe) and patrolled a good deal of it near their spawn and at eclipse. Marine deaths were everywhere, we had good communications and were doing good. A difference of 2 minutes would have made the difference between winning and losing, that I dont mind, the fact that one marine can turn the entire outcome of a game? That, I DO mind. Marines are about teamwork, arent they?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So... a game is only fun if you win? How weak minded.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A game is fun, when both sides are in a tug of war, with the balance swinging like a pendulum. It ceases to be fun, when some ridiculous factor, such as, half the marine team dropping out, comes into play. The JP marine was one such ridiculous factor in that particular match. I tell you how I know when a match becomes ridiculous? When no one says a thing in the ready room. Strange but true, when the marines take a full hour to take out the hive, no one says anything in the RR, when aliens take a while to kill the last marine, no one says a thing, when half of the winning team f4's it all at once resulting in loss, no one says a thing. Silence, absolute silence until a new round begins and strategies begin to flow.
My point? After the match, no one said a thing...
And kindly keep your insults to yourself...
OH yer baby!! QBASIC ALL DAH WAYYYYYYY!!!!
I can't believe someone else liked those damn monkeys!
Cronos has some points people.
JP rush is unstoppable on some maps. Not 'hard to counter', impossible to beat. The marines can forgo all else and just get 3 JPs out before the fades, and gg. It actually isn't that hard to do.
It is abusable and uncounterable, it needs a patch change. I am NOT sure of the best approach - crippling JP movement or usefulness is not what I had in mind. Maybe have the hives web cast around themselves, or make JPers have to touch the ground to refuel, or maybe simply make JPs as expensive as HA, meaning that kitting a team with them is not rushable - you can't rush to full heavy tech and win without playing the res/hive game, I think the same rule should apply to the JPs.
Health spam...bah, that is not an issue. It can be frustrating, but sneh, deal, it isn't game breaking, and it has downsides - it doesn't make marines invulnerable gods any game they want.
Scan spam is ok, it just lags you - at 3 res a pop (I think 5 is fairer personally) it won't happen as much.
2. Not Enough Resources (if you've played on a 26 player server, it takes ages just to fill)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LOL - a 26 player server? 13v13? That's your problem right there. Stop complaining about JP's. Starting complaining about a resource system that goes totally out of whack on larger servers.
It takes a REALLY bad marine team to loose a 13v13 game. They can do the LMG rush and win by spawn rate, or they can do the 2 hive lockdown, or they can do the tech race.
Take a look at these tables
Marine (and total alien) income per team size and resource tower count.
__ 001,00 002,00 003,00 004,00 005,00 006,00
04 019,20 028,40 037,60 046,80 056,00 065,20
05 021,50 033,00 044,50 056,00 067,50 079,00
06 023,80 037,60 051,40 065,20 079,00 092,80
07 026,10 042,20 058,30 074,40 090,50 106,60
08 028,40 046,80 065,20 083,60 102,00 120,40
09 030,70 051,40 072,10 092,80 113,50 134,20
10 033,00 056,00 079,00 102,00 125,00 148,00
11 035,30 060,60 085,90 111,20 136,50 161,80
12 037,60 065,20 092,80 120,40 148,00 175,60
13 039,90 069,80 099,70 129,60 159,50 189,40
14 042,20 074,40 106,60 138,80 171,00 203,20
15 044,50 079,00 113,50 148,00 182,50 217,00
16 046,80 083,60 120,40 157,20 194,00 230,80
Single gorge income
04 009,60 014,20 018,80 023,40 028,00 032,60
05 009,21 014,14 019,07 024,00 028,93 033,86
06 008,93 014,10 019,28 024,45 029,63 034,80
07 008,70 014,07 019,43 024,80 030,17 035,53
08 008,52 014,04 019,56 025,08 030,60 036,12
09 008,37 014,02 019,66 025,31 030,95 036,60
10 008,25 014,00 019,75 025,50 031,25 037,00
11 008,15 013,98 019,82 025,66 031,50 037,34
12 008,06 013,97 019,89 025,80 031,71 037,63
13 007,98 013,96 019,94 025,92 031,90 037,88
14 007,91 013,95 019,99 026,03 032,06 038,10
15 007,85 013,94 020,03 026,12 032,21 038,29
16 007,80 013,93 020,07 026,20 032,33 038,47
Notice that in a 13v13 game, the marines get 39.9 res per minute from their starting node? While a single gorge is getting about 8 res per minute? The marines are earning 5 times the income of a single gorge.
Compare that to a 6v6 game. The marines start out with 23.8 res, while the gorge gets 9 res. About 2.5 times the income of a single gorge.
In practice, it's even worse. With the increased marine income, they can cap res nodes much faster in larger games as well, accentuating their res advantage even further.
As the marines don't have any per-marine costs, all these extra resources can be used to speed up the research. At 70 resources per minute with just one extra res node, racing up the tech tree is FAST (do notice that this is MORE than a team of 4 marines gets if they hold 6(!) res nodes. And they STILL pay the same amount to do the SAME research).
You think it is any wonder that the marines can just TOY with the aliens in large games?
You are barking up the wrong tree. The problem is not that jetpacks are good, the problem is the marine resource model.
Go play on 8v8 servers instead. There, the marines have a hard time getting jetpacks before the 2nd hive is up.
1. Not Enough Resources
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So lets get this straight...The marine team has:
A turret farm in their base,
A turret farm near maintenace,
A siege at maintenace,
A base outside whatever hive it was that the jetpacker went to,
Arms lab, protolab, jetpack research, jetpack equipped marines, upgraded armoury, HMGs,
Enough spare resources to spam med packs and scans.
You have apparently got control of a large portion of the map, giving you access to resource nodes and containing the marines resource expansion....
And you can't afford offense chambers? You can't afford a lerk? The marines are at the JP/HMG gun stage and you're still using skulks? They didn't fast tech either as they have forward bases and turret farms.
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Alien turrets are almost completely ineffective when dealing with jetpackers.
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This is not true, while its possible to dodge in the air and avoid most of the shots from a single turret, a couple of turrets will deal enough damage over time to a jetpacker that it makes it very difficult for him to assault a hive.
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It's our fault one guy could fly past all our defences?
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Yes
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it's our fault the marines were invincible due to health spam?
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No
But more importantly, its your fault that you let either of these things result in the loss of the game. 1 marine health spammed by a commander can be temporarily invincible assuming multiple skulks do not hit him at once. 1 temporarily invincible marine for the cost of a large amount of res and alot of commander attention is not god. Once the armour is gone the commander is spending the equivalent of 3 res per skulk bite... There are methods of avoiding the situation you described, you did not use them, next time your team might know better. I did not say you are a newb for losing, i said you lost because you did not play as well as you could have done.
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Strategy involves thought, a plan, a logical sequence of events. He just grabbed a JP and did as he wished, that is not strategy
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From what you described, it appears the marine team moved to secure eclipse, then sent a jetpacker diversion to harrass a hive while they set up a siege base outside maintenance.... sounds like a pretty good strategy to me.
You did not prevent them from taking eclipse, you did not prevent them from getting a base near maintenance, and you did not deal adequately with the harassment. Aliens have been killing jetpack users since the game was released, no one has suddenly altered the game to make them invulnerable. If you were against a damn near incredible jetpacker, then all credit to him, he outplayed you - after his team out manouvered you. Credit to the commander who recognised the ability of mr. jetpacker and used him in a dummy move to secure a hive. Do you know that he was just flying around randomly doing what he liked?
Given that the 2nd hive is up, you even have access to leap. Is it too much of a hassle to use your abilities? You can complain about individual skill all you like, but NS in its current state requires you to at least be able to aim and move in a respectable manner. If you aren't anywhere near the skill of another player, you are probably going to lose to him, be he a jetpacker, regular marine, skulk gorge or onos. NS doesn't reward skill nearly as much as some other games, but there are rewards. If you really think the only reason you lost the game was because of a single jetpacker, he must of been a hell of a lot better than all of you....
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And kindly keep your insults to yourself...
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Kindly keep your dictionary links to yourself.
There is only one thing in your post which suggests an unfair advantage to the marine side - you mentioned it was a 26 player server (edit: and matso has beaten me to it). This is a rather silly number of players for the current version of NS, as the flaws in the resource systems give marines a large advantage in big games. (And aliens get the advantage in smaller games) This is not to say you can't get around it. In a large game it may be prudent to use multiple gorges, so that more of the teams res can be put into building structures. With 2-3 gorges, half or more of the teams res would be going to gorges, who would then have no problem putting up some of those OC chambers that you apparently couldn't afford. After a few structures are down, 2 of the gorges can switch back to skulk and have their extra res go to the remaining gorge. Find your own counters to tactics by exploring every facet of the game, if stopping jetpack marines on a 26 player server requires you to use the flawed 'donation' trick to get around the flawed resource system then so be it. Frankly i don't think there are any matchups where 1 race is incapable of beating the other given the right strategy and enough skill.
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Why does everyone keep posting that if an alien team is defeated by a JP rush, it's because they suck?
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No one posted that, the argument was that the outcome of the game is in your own hands. Unless you truely believe its impossible for aliens to beat a JP rush, then any alien team that loses to a JP rush lost because they didn't play well enough/were outplayed.
Generator hive on caged is really difficult to get on top of as a skulk and to shoot at with lerk spines. Sat Comm on Tanith and Computer core are really bad as they can both be shot from a vent. If a JP marine gets in there with a HMG your hive is dead, no questions asked, at one hive stage. I'm sure theres other hives which are as bad.
It's really only a problem when the marines rush for JPs and HMGs. It usually forges capturing any hives as a drawback as you need the res.
However, from your post Cronos, you had more than enough time to get that second hive up. You got beat by superior technology. Something is wrong with what you've told us. They'd secured eclipse, teched to JPs and still had enough resources to siege maintenance whilst supplying rambos to take out CC, all on 2 res nodes ? Not being insultive, but what was your team doing ? Either you sat around for ages doing nothing or they had way more then 2 res nodes. I understand it was a 26 player server but still......something doesn't add up. I play on a 20 player server and it couldn't happen.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahhh! The days when a 286 was cutting edge! King's Quest 1 and that BASIC banana throwing game whiled away many a hour when I was younger.
We had enough resources to start the hive going several times, the problem was the JP'er kept coming back and destroying the hive. I guess the problem was with the gorges not building any OC's in the hive room, but it wouldnt have mattered, it was comp core and like Phoenix said, the hive is very susceptible to JP rambo...
On a lighter note, I do remember that gorillas game, fun fun fun, CIV1 rocked much better then any of it's descendants in all respects, say, does anyone remember a game called Major Stryker?
Except for this point:
>> This is not true, while its possible to dodge in the air and avoid most of the shots from a single turret, a couple of turrets will deal enough damage over time to a jetpacker that it makes it very difficult for him to assault a hive
Actually, a JPer can simply fly above the firing angle of the offence chamber. And it is very simple to roofskate past most choke point defenses.
Sorry Te, but this is a problem with the JP, not the defenders' play.
Worse, any damage done to the JPer can be negated by health spam.
If thats not enough have a gorge sit amongst the def chambers and heal the hive.
Oh no! suddenly the hive is invincible till mr JPer gets down there and kills the def chambers.
Tbh though its really does sound like you let them tech rush you without you having a fkin clue what a tech rush is.
The second you have two hives JPers are not gonna work because of web. I just read the above post that states quite plainly you DID HAVE two hives albiet briefly. So why didn't you web him down?
BlueGhost
Fact - Aliens wont win a game unless the outskill the marines quite alot.
Have you ever actually played aliens? Sure, having multiple gorges will increase the res going into building, but that entire effect is completely scrrewed by the fact it will take you ten minutes to put down the first resource node. And having to have several gorges around the same point so enough resources can be put into defending that point is hugely crippling for aliens - having 2 to 4 players hanging around the same place only building an OT every minute or so really isn't worth it. The resource system is rubbish for aliens at the moment, and there is not much aliens can do about it. Perhaps if a proportion (say 50%) of resources was always split among gorges, and the rest went among the other players, it would work better.
Also, using leap against a JetPacker? I would be surprised if anyone thinks you can do this consistently (hard to hit, doesn't do enough damage, JPer can shoot you while you fly through the air).
Anyway, I'd like to change the subject of this thread slightly - from the situation the original post was on (just to say it sounds like they were doing surprisingly well in such a large game) to the fact that marines can get JPs a lot quicker than aliens can get 2nd hive (I don't have figures, how does this compare), and aliens have no efficient way to counter JPs at this stage. Lerks cost too much, OTs cost too much/akward to get in a useful place, skulks cannot close the distance
Have you ever actually played aliens? Sure, having multiple gorges will increase the res going into building, but that entire effect is completely scrrewed by the fact it will take you ten minutes to put down the first resource node.
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I didn't say multiple gorges was a super-strat that you should be doing in every game, i said it was a way to get resources to defend a hive against a jetpacker... which was the whole point of the paragraph.
In a normal game you do want to start by stockpiling alot of res on 1 gorge so you can afford your 2nd hive as quickly as possible, but we're not talking about a normal game. We're talking about midway into a 26 player pub game where the marines are going to make a cowboy JP attack on your hive and for some inexplicable reason you have no res...
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using leap against a JetPacker? I would be surprised if anyone thinks you can do this consistently (hard to hit, doesn't do enough damage, JPer can shoot you while you fly through the air)
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The damage isnt dealt by the leap, its dealt by bite - either an aerial bite, or simply by using leap to reach a wall/cieling near the jetpacker. A jetpacker can move very quickly from high to low, forcing a skulk to dash to the nearest wall, run up then along the cieling to reach him, at which point a JP'er can simply move down again and to the side. Leap lets you go from floor to cieling faster than a JP'er can, clear any distance in an insignificant amount of time, and jump as high as you want into the air. I've leap-killed by fair share of jetpackers. Ideally, write a leap script that quickly leaps and switches immediately back to bite - very useful.
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Tbh though its really does sound like you let them tech rush you without you having a fkin clue what a tech rush is.
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Reading the state the aliens were supposedly in when the jetpacker hit, all signs point to a tech rush. But if you look back through his posts, the marines actually had several turret farms and forward bases before the jetpack showed up. I don't think it was a tech rush at all, just exceptionally slow aliens. My definition of a tech rush being to forgo phases/turrets etc in favour of spending all your early res on tech.
The only explanation is that the marines were left to huddle and tech up whilst the aliens were over confident, capping every RT and not getting the hive up and defended.
Also, whilst I don't think large servers are really horrible to either side, any mistakes made by the aliens are magnified whilst it's the opposite with the marines, mainly due to the res system and the respawn times.
I would like to see an accurate timescale of events to put things into perspective but obviously thats impossible <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
Read my comment again. It is a <i>bug</i>. Right now, some players can stay in the air forever, while others can barely leave the ground.
This is being resolved. It has nothing to do with whining / complaining from the community, it's a bugfix. JPers will still be able to stay in the air for a while, but constant tap-flying will become much more critical.
Read my comment again. It is a <i>bug</i>. Right now, some players can stay in the air forever, while others can barely leave the ground.
This is being resolved. It has nothing to do with whining / complaining from the community, it's a bugfix. JPers will still be able to stay in the air for a while, but constant tap-flying will become much more critical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't make any distinction between bug or game element in this case. If skulks doing 75 damage per bite turned out to be a bug and they were originally intended to do 25, i wouldn't be calling for it to be "fixed".
But i get what you're talking about now - the jetpack physics varying greatly with your framerate. If you have a way around that then nicely done, but it poses the question of what you consider the real efficiency of jetpack fuel should be set to. Is every jetpacker suddenly going to turn into a 20fps lead weight, or a 70fps graceful hummingbird?
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Sure... if youre able to spam some health right on a jetpacker that you say is impossible to hit because he moves so much. Not to mention hes in the air, and if you miss it he probably wont go down to get it back since the ground is probably already crawling with aliens.
Also for whoever is saying that they won the game with "no teamwork" or by "ramboing" you are completely and entirely wrong. While Jetpacks ARE bugged as nemesiszero said, going inside a hive and trying to kill it by yourself CAN be teamwork, it depends on the situation at hand. For this particular game, i would certainly say you got beaten by an organized team rather than a Jetpacker.
Hmm, ok, send a rambo with a jetpack inside their hive, build a siege outpost right outside the hive while he distracts the aliens with a "hive is under attack" message, build your siege, build....build..... BOOM, sieges is done and you can kill the hive even if the "jetpacker of doom" couldnt manage. Yeah, no teamwork there.
I mean, really, who goes around distracting enemies to sneak in a blow behind them right?
The only thing thats wrong with this strategy is your definition of teamwork. While teamwork CAN be "two or more people in the same area working together" it can also be "two or more people in different places coordinating actions that can lead to the teams victory"
If that isnt teamwork, i guess nobody on a SWAT team, or special corps, or any kind of force of the such has any teamwork...
I doubt something like that would be added this late, but it would be an interesting feature to try out, could increase teamplay a lot more.
Read my comment again. It is a <i>bug</i>. Right now, some players can stay in the air forever, while others can barely leave the ground.
This is being resolved. It has nothing to do with whining / complaining from the community, it's a bugfix. JPers will still be able to stay in the air for a while, but constant tap-flying will become much more critical.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I really don't make any distinction between bug or game element in this case. If skulks doing 75 damage per bite turned out to be a bug and they were originally intended to do 25, i wouldn't be calling for it to be "fixed".
But i get what you're talking about now - the jetpack physics varying greatly with your framerate. If you have a way around that then nicely done, but it poses the question of what you consider the real efficiency of jetpack fuel should be set to. Is every jetpacker suddenly going to turn into a 20fps lead weight, or a 70fps graceful hummingbird?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good question. I'm going to risk a wild guess and say that it'll be around the current 60Fps performance, but that's just me pulling answers out of an unidentified bodypart.
I think that jetpacks are intended to give marines the mobility advantage that the aliens initially have, i.e. they are able to get into vents and higher locations (think the high platforms in NS_Nothing's powersilo). The jetpack marines should have enough fuel to get into a vent or to make a quick dodge or two away from a skulk, but not enough for sustained flight.
The lerk, on the other hand, should have flight for the purpose of attacking. They don't need flight for mobility, simply because a skulk is pretty much just as if not more mobile than a lerk. A lerk should be able to kill a jetpacker with relative ease. However, such is not the case.
Let's compare the resource values for the jetpacks and lerks:
To research the jetpack, you need around 120 res (arms lab + proto lab + research). Seems pretty fair. But as many people have already stated, marines don't need much time to get those resources. By the time any alien, excluding the gorges, gets 33 resources, the marines can be pumping out the jetpacks. And at that point, jetpacks only require 9 resources. 9 resources to 33...meh. Jetpackers have almost unlimited sustained, controlled flight; while the lerks have temporary, erratic flight. Marines can aim easily while in flight, lerks really can't. And that jetpacks will almost always kill the lerk, as well as any other alien.
Here's an interesting suggestion: nerf the lerk's spikes, and put the Onos's stun tentacles in their place. That would make the lerk a much, MUCH better anti-personal class. The lerk could stun a jetpacker who flies in to the hive (or anywhere else, for that matter) then swoop in for the kill. And coupled with fade in the two-hive situation, they could both provide umbra and stun marine attackers for easy fade pickings. The lerks wouldn't be able to slowly snipe and harass buildings anymore, but I think players could deal.
If you understand what I'm referencing, good for you.
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Oooo yes, what a wonderful game....what was it called - "Weather Wars"?
Can´t remember...
/NB
The marine team, used the following 3 tactics to beat us down.
1. Health spam
2. JP Whoring
3. Sensor Spam
A Single JP marine bypassed all our defenses multiple times to shoot the **** out of our second hive, just before we could get fades. He did it multiple times, and since aliens have no decent long range weapons, well, goodbye hive. More infuriating, the marine team cleared out our defenses, and under constant attack and healthspam, managed to build a damn base and siege out maintenance. Then, to top it off, he constantly sensor sweeped the hives and our locations, over and over and over.
The result? Lagging, weakened aliens fighting an unfair fight.
Sensor spam will probably be fixed in 1.04, with it's increase in cost, but for the love of god, lower the JP fuel, make marines have to actually TOUCH the ground to refuel, and put a limit on how often the marine commander can drop health, it's just ridiculous that I can chomp a marine constantly for 35 seconds before he notices me and shoots whilst sitting on a mountain of health.
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I'm assuming that jet-packer had an LMG. Even on a half-dead Hive, at takes a LOT of bullets from an LMG to take it down. Why were there no OCs and/or DCs in with the hive ? You surely had enough time, since it takes a while for the Marines to have the time and resources to:
1) build a spawn
2) build an armory
3) build an arms lab
4) build a proto lab
5) research jet-packs
Never, ever assume a wall of lame will stop a marine. Even a non-jet-pack marine can get over them. I've personally hopped over many walls of lame, taking damage in the process, but living to tell about it. Also, a jet-pack marine is not that tough, so a single OC chamber in the hive could have take him down. Also, a gorge's primary (spit) weapon could have taken him down. A single DC chamber under the hive could have healed the hive. A singel DC chamber could have also healed a gorge shooting at the marine, or skulks parasting the dude. A single Lerk could have taken the marine out. I don't see a problem with the game itself, but with the lack of creativity on the Alien's part.
The only lame part is scanner sweep spamming. However, with it being increased from 1 res to 3 res in 1.04, this should fix it.
Haha, perhaps eventually we will be frozen in position, checking for wind, choosing altitude and velocity, then throwing bananas at each other.
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Good old QBASIC Gorillia <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' valign='absmiddle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
My sister and I competed for hours on that game with a 286...
Nibbles was fun too...