<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Some people just aren't setup(usually financialy, sometimes emotionally) to father/mother children.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Give it up for adoption. Simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simply because this process is not pretty, does not change the fact that if it is not happening to a life, your argument falls through. Methods almost as grotesque are used to slaughter the animals that we all eat, but no one ever complains about them. Equally qrotesque methods are also used during wartime(and on people who no one will disagree as being"alive"), and I have seen you support the war we are going into now on many occasions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are doing these things to innocent lives. Given the chance to live, these people would most likely live healthy lives, theoretically, killing a human 40 years later is the same thing as killing them in the womb. So, saying that, what are the chances that you would agree to me sticking some scissors in the back of your head?
Were not talking about cutting chickens heads off, these are people not animals. The major difference from animals and humans are the ability to tell right from wrong, and have morals, animals can't tell, they're pretty much drones ( Good reason in believing in a divinity, and not evolution, the evolution of morals?...What would spur the conscience? ).
Also, I do not think I ever said I endorse killing people. I endorse the war for the simple reason that <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->qrotesque methods<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> are not used on innocent people. Saddam carries plenty of chemical and biological weapons, that has been shown, I do not endorse killing, but I do not endorse keeping a dictator who kills innocent people either. By the way, no ones arguing for the disarment of all of Saddam's weapons, just his chemical and biological weapons. With the exception of any nuclear weapons, or long range missles I believe.
If you guys have not yet understood my point, it is that I don't think it's ok to just kill of people that we don't want. (Yes, babies are people too, everyone was one at sometime, and aren't you a person?)
AllUrHiveRblong2usBy Your Powers Combined...Join Date: 2002-12-20Member: 11244Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Were not talking about cutting chickens heads off, these are people not animals. The major difference from animals and humans are the ability to tell right from wrong, and have morals, animals can't tell, they're pretty much drones ( Good reason in believing in a divinity, and not evolution, the evolution of morals?...What would spur the conscience? ).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Humans ARE animals. Very advanced ones, true, but we are animals. And morals are not evolved, or inherent at birth. Morals are taught. Simple as that. You can teach a dog to follow your "morals" you can teach a human to follow your "morals"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We are doing these things to innocent lives. Given the chance to live, these people would most likely live healthy lives, theoretically, killing a human 40 years later is the same thing as killing them in the womb. So, saying that, what are the chances that you would agree to me sticking some scissors in the back of your head?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Who ever said we are killing a "human" in teh womb. All that is being killed is something that cannot even be classified as "alive" to begin with. And although I might mind being jabbed with scissors, I doubt that anyone it should be legal to abort would. Considering they wouldn't be sentient(by the way, I don't think partial births are right anyway, but damned if I'm gonna outlaw it, males should have absolutely no say in any sort of legislation to do with abortion.)
First, Animals, not MAMMALS. It's different. We are not animals. We are mammals.
Also,
Classifications for a living thing.
Breathing or Respiration ... All living things exchange gases with their environment. Animals take in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide.
"Fetus' exchange gases with their environment through the umbilical cord. And through the skin (? Specific name?) inside the mothers body. (Sorry for not remembering specifics, I'm sorta blanking out right now, maybe I should eat something)"
Excretion ... Excretion is the removal of waste from the body. If this waste was allowed to remain in the body it could be poisonous. Humans produce a liquid waste called urine. We also excrete waste when we breathe out. All living things need to remove waste from their bodies.
"Yup, Waste is exchanged through the umbilical cord. And through the mother. "
Growth
When living things feed they gain energy. Some of this energy is used in growth. Living things become larger and more complicated as they grow.
"I don't think I need to say anything about growth"
Sensitivity ... Living things react to changes around them. We react to touch, light, heat, cold and sound, as do other living things.
"Yes, the child may not be sentient yet, but alot of the time it is sentient." Reproduction ... All living things produce young. Humans make babies, cats produce kittens and pigeons lay eggs. Plants also reproduce. Many make seeds which can germinate and grow into new plants
"Ok, Not able to reproduce yet, but it will have a fully working reproduction system, with the exception of defects."
Alright. Honestly, your entitled to your opinion as am I. =D. Although, So far, I've got quite a bit more evidence on my side <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> . Oh Well ! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
While you might all hate me for this in saying it, I do believe abortion is very very very very wrong. #1. Its not the mothers choice. The mother had her choice when she decided to have sex without taking pills or not using a condom or abstinence or watever. If she decided she would take the risk i do believe she should put the child up for adoption. She does not have the right to kill the baby. #2. Its against the bible. You say that methods almost grotesque are used to kill chickens? What are you some animal rights freak? A chicken is not a human plain and simple. The Homo-Sapien is the only animal in the known universe that is able to understand that someday, it is going to die. #3. EVERY ABORTED BABY NEVER GETS TO PLAY NS [/lame joke]
<!--QuoteBegin--James H4xwell+Feb 1 2003, 12:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (James H4xwell @ Feb 1 2003, 12:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Its not the mothers choice... She does not have the right to kill the baby.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What about incest or rape? Doesn't she deserve a choice in that situation?
I personally am pro-life except in cases where the mother would be physically or psychologically traumatized by giving birth, such as rapes (whose baby are you giving birth to?). If the mother would be killed or otherwise badly harmed by giving birth, I say let her have an abortion.
Hmm I may not have thought this through fully, but this thought occurs.
So after conception, the little ball of cells, a chemical reaction, is immediately sentient and a human being? Or alternatively, once the cells have grown into a baby-like shape, it is a human being? So this mass inside the womb, which hasn't experienced anything about life yet, hasn't had any thoughts, hasn't made any actions, hasn't got any opinions, any likes or dislikes, possibly doesn't even have the capacity to think, is a human being? And I'm not talking about human being in the walking bag of meat, physical way - I'm talking about whether this thing is actually alive.
It seems no different to me than the billions of sperm and thousands of eggs that reside in us fully grown humans. Are they all life? They all have the capability of bringing life, and we all know how you go about doing that. We also know just how much we waste all of this (not wanting to get too graphic here) every day or less of our lives. Are they all 'lost lives'? Potential humans...well...yes. A fetus is a potential human, it just happens to be now governed by time instead of how randy you're feeling. Once it has a love of life, and a way of properly perceiving it, then perhaps it’s a human being. Until then I see it as water, fat, iron, carbon, and other chemicals, which exist everywhere else in the world. They are simply the compounds, the foundations, for what will turn into a person later on. In my opinion, babies aren’t special, except to their mothers and fathers, but if they don't want the child then surely there's no argument?
To quote Bill (yet again), "Quit bringing people into this life thinking you're gonna make the world better - try loving the people that are already here first."
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->While you might all hate me for this in saying it, I do believe abortion is very very very very wrong. #1. Its not the mothers choice. The mother had her choice when she decided to have sex without taking pills or not using a condom or abstinence or watever. If she decided she would take the risk i do believe she should put the child up for adoption. She does not have the right to kill the baby.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->#2. Its against the bible. You say that methods almost grotesque are used to kill chickens? What are you some animal rights freak? A chicken is not a human plain and simple. The Homo-Sapien is the only animal in the known universe that is able to understand that someday, it is going to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So it's against the Bible... well I could easily say not having abortion is against the Pango-Jellarniackib-Blargadoo Book of Truths. It makes no difference. :o
Comments
Give it up for adoption. Simple.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Simply because this process is not pretty, does not change the fact that if it is not happening to a life, your argument falls through.
Methods almost as grotesque are used to slaughter the animals that we all eat, but no one ever complains about them. Equally qrotesque methods are also used during wartime(and on people who no one will disagree as being"alive"), and I have seen you support the war we are going into now on many occasions. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are doing these things to innocent lives. Given the chance to live, these people would most likely live healthy lives, theoretically, killing a human 40 years later is the same thing as killing them in the womb. So, saying that, what are the chances that you would agree to me sticking some scissors in the back of your head?
Were not talking about cutting chickens heads off, these are people not animals. The major difference from animals and humans are the ability to tell right from wrong, and have morals, animals can't tell, they're pretty much drones ( Good reason in believing in a divinity, and not evolution, the evolution of morals?...What would spur the conscience? ).
Also, I do not think I ever said I endorse killing people. I endorse the war for the simple reason that <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->qrotesque methods<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> are not used on innocent people. Saddam carries plenty of chemical and biological weapons, that has been shown, I do not endorse killing, but I do not endorse keeping a dictator who kills innocent people either. By the way, no ones arguing for the disarment of all of Saddam's weapons, just his chemical and biological weapons. With the exception of any nuclear weapons, or long range missles I believe.
If you guys have not yet understood my point, it is that I don't think it's ok to just kill of people that we don't want. (Yes, babies are people too, everyone was one at sometime, and aren't you a person?)
Humans ARE animals. Very advanced ones, true, but we are animals. And morals are not evolved, or inherent at birth. Morals are taught. Simple as that. You can teach a dog to follow your "morals" you can teach a human to follow your "morals"
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We are doing these things to innocent lives. Given the chance to live, these people would most likely live healthy lives, theoretically, killing a human 40 years later is the same thing as killing them in the womb. So, saying that, what are the chances that you would agree to me sticking some scissors in the back of your head?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who ever said we are killing a "human" in teh womb. All that is being killed is something that cannot even be classified as "alive" to begin with. And although I might mind being jabbed with scissors, I doubt that anyone it should be legal to abort would. Considering they wouldn't be sentient(by the way, I don't think partial births are right anyway, but damned if I'm gonna outlaw it, males should have absolutely no say in any sort of legislation to do with abortion.)
Also,
Classifications for a living thing.
Breathing or Respiration
...
All living things exchange gases with their environment. Animals take in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide.
"Fetus' exchange gases with their environment through the umbilical cord. And through the skin (? Specific name?) inside the mothers body. (Sorry for not remembering specifics, I'm sorta blanking out right now, maybe I should eat something)"
Excretion
...
Excretion is the removal of waste from the body. If this waste was allowed to remain in the body it could be poisonous. Humans produce a liquid waste called urine. We also excrete waste when we breathe out. All living things need to remove waste from their bodies.
"Yup, Waste is exchanged through the umbilical cord. And through the mother. "
Growth
When living things feed they gain energy. Some of this energy is used in growth. Living things become larger and more complicated as they grow.
"I don't think I need to say anything about growth"
Sensitivity
...
Living things react to changes around them. We react to touch, light, heat, cold and sound, as do other living things.
"Yes, the child may not be sentient yet, but alot of the time it is sentient."
Reproduction
...
All living things produce young. Humans make babies, cats produce kittens and pigeons lay eggs. Plants also reproduce. Many make seeds which can germinate and grow into new plants
"Ok, Not able to reproduce yet, but it will have a fully working reproduction system, with the exception of defects."
Can we agree a fetus is alive?
Obviously not
#1. Its not the mothers choice. The mother had her choice when she decided to have sex without taking pills or not using a condom or abstinence or watever. If she decided she would take the risk i do believe she should put the child up for adoption. She does not have the right to kill the baby.
#2. Its against the bible. You say that methods almost grotesque are used to kill chickens? What are you some animal rights freak? A chicken is not a human plain and simple. The Homo-Sapien is the only animal in the known universe that is able to understand that someday, it is going to die.
#3. EVERY ABORTED BABY NEVER GETS TO PLAY NS [/lame joke]
<span style='color:white'>Don't spam smileys, please.</span>
What about incest or rape? Doesn't she deserve a choice in that situation?
I think this topic should be read and analysed by everyone on this forum.
I personally am pro-life except in cases where the mother would be physically or psychologically traumatized by giving birth, such as rapes (whose baby are you giving birth to?). If the mother would be killed or otherwise badly harmed by giving birth, I say let her have an abortion.
So after conception, the little ball of cells, a chemical reaction, is immediately sentient and a human being? Or alternatively, once the cells have grown into a baby-like shape, it is a human being? So this mass inside the womb, which hasn't experienced anything about life yet, hasn't had any thoughts, hasn't made any actions, hasn't got any opinions, any likes or dislikes, possibly doesn't even have the capacity to think, is a human being? And I'm not talking about human being in the walking bag of meat, physical way - I'm talking about whether this thing is actually alive.
It seems no different to me than the billions of sperm and thousands of eggs that reside in us fully grown humans. Are they all life? They all have the capability of bringing life, and we all know how you go about doing that. We also know just how much we waste all of this (not wanting to get too graphic here) every day or less of our lives. Are they all 'lost lives'? Potential humans...well...yes. A fetus is a potential human, it just happens to be now governed by time instead of how randy you're feeling. Once it has a love of life, and a way of properly perceiving it, then perhaps it’s a human being. Until then I see it as water, fat, iron, carbon, and other chemicals, which exist everywhere else in the world. They are simply the compounds, the foundations, for what will turn into a person later on. In my opinion, babies aren’t special, except to their mothers and fathers, but if they don't want the child then surely there's no argument?
To quote Bill (yet again), "Quit bringing people into this life thinking you're gonna make the world better - try loving the people that are already here first."
#1. Its not the mothers choice. The mother had her choice when she decided to have sex without taking pills or not using a condom or abstinence or watever. If she decided she would take the risk i do believe she should put the child up for adoption. She does not have the right to kill the baby.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->#2. Its against the bible. You say that methods almost grotesque are used to kill chickens? What are you some animal rights freak? A chicken is not a human plain and simple. The Homo-Sapien is the only animal in the known universe that is able to understand that someday, it is going to die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it's against the Bible... well I could easily say not having abortion is against the Pango-Jellarniackib-Blargadoo Book of Truths. It makes no difference. :o
BTW: wasn't this in the discussions forum?