Win Percentages

ZdroneZdrone Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3914Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">The life of a public server.</div> Another thread got me interested as to the percentage of wins on my servers. As I have an aversion to stats, I haven't checked how things are going until today.

I pulled the logs from all 3 of my servers down locally (hate adding more cpu load on the servers) and ran them with interesting (to me) results.

Almost every game I get in to, I watch people pile into the Marine portal as though its the only team they can play. I figured that meant that the Marines typically win...

Wrong.

Actually, the Aliens win about 70% of the games on my 2, 18 person servers. Some maps that I always thought were good for the Marines are exactly the opposite.
Hera for example; Aliens win 68% of the time. I've always considered this a Marine map with "Central Processing" being the key.

Remember, all 3 are public servers so the abilites may vary. I do have quite a few excellent regulars and the skill levels are improving all the time.

H2O-4 18 person
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
(didn't have nothing in the cycle... fixed now)

H2O-5 18 person
Eclipse Marine: 36.82%
Hera Marine: 31.18%
Tanith Marine: 26.17%
Nancy Marine: 31.97%
Bast Marine: 22.50%
Caged Marine: 24.30%

On my 30 (now 24) person server, the Marines have an advantage (probably due to respawn rates).
H2O-7 30 person (now 24)
Hera Marine: 46.53%
Tanith Marine: 48.04%
Bast Marine: 48.15%
Caged Marine: 60.00%
nancy Marine: 61.17%
Nothing Marine: 70.87%
Eclipse Marine: 71.70%

Im going to make some small changes (thru plugins) to help out the Marines *slightly* and see where things go...
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Comments

  • eagleceaglec Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9948Members, Constellation
    I was wondering what software you used to go through all your logs?
  • ZdroneZdrone Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3914Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--eaglec+Feb 11 2003, 12:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eaglec @ Feb 11 2003, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I was wondering what software you used to go through all your logs? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I pulled the logs down to my pc and ran psychostats on all 3 sets.
  • masterswordmanmasterswordman Join Date: 2002-12-21 Member: 11303Members
    It's not all about winning, as long as you come in first. But really, it dosn't matter as long as both sides have fun. Perhaps a few incentives like on voogrus server could help the marines. Sure, the immature players will run 1/2 way across the map to heal 12 damage, but the hp armory helps even it out. Just ask voogru about how he did it.
  • cracker_jackmaccracker_jackmac Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6891Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--QuoteBegin--masterswordman+Feb 10 2003, 08:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (masterswordman @ Feb 10 2003, 08:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's not all about winning, as long as you come in first. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    isn't that kinda redundent?
  • masterswordmanmasterswordman Join Date: 2002-12-21 Member: 11303Members
    edited February 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Read the rest of the thread<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> - Listen to your own suggestions.
  • PlinkoPlinko Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5850Members
    I'd actually like to see more server ops post their totals like this. For all the whining about game balance for public servers and all the reactionaries that insist the game mechanics are fine as they are. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that if server ops all checked and posted their results, we'd see that as the servers get bigger, the win percentages get more even. I assume the games come out much more evenly in organized play, but I bet most server ops, if they actually looked at their stats, would see this same trend.

    In keeping with Zdrone's numbers, the public server I admin at, Chicago Mayhem NS (16 player maximum), stats for 1.04 so far:

    Games Completed: 833
    Avg. Game Time: 24 Mins. 17 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 83.43%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 16.57%

    ns_caged (118 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 23 Mins. 31 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 84.75%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 15.25%

    ns_eclipse (114 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 24 Mins. 41 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 83.33%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 16.67%

    ns_europa (97 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 24 Mins. 34 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 78.35%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 21.65%

    ns_hera (113 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 25 Mins. 23 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 82.3%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 17.7%

    ns_nancy (93 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 26 Mins. 14 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 86.02%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 13.98%

    ns_nothing (95 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 25 Mins. 29 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 70.53%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 29.47%

    ns_tanith (100 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 23 Mins. 55 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 88%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 12%

    ns_bast (103 games)
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Avg. Game Time: 20 Mins. 44 Secs.
    Win/Lose % Aliens: 93.2%
    Win/Lose % Marines: 6.8%
  • Eternal_BlissEternal_Bliss Join Date: 2002-11-07 Member: 7633Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <a href='http://212.68.148.12/hlds/psychostats/ns/maps.php' target='_blank'>http://212.68.148.12/hlds/psychostats/ns/maps.php</a>
  • CaucasianCaucasian Join Date: 2002-11-26 Member: 9993Members
    <a href='http://207.109.223.16/maps.html' target='_blank'>http://207.109.223.16/maps.html</a>
  • ZdroneZdrone Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3914Members, Constellation
    I see a pattern developing...
  • BlueDemonBlueDemon Join Date: 2003-01-19 Member: 12462Members
    Yes, shocking. I must admit i didn't realise marines win only about 1/4 of the time.

    I guess this needs some subtle re-balancing.
  • eagleceaglec Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9948Members, Constellation
    No, it's fine. There are always people clammering to get in the marines team, until 1.04 made the aliens win more often now I find its not happening so often, but it is still happening that you find queues outside the marine start and not aliens.

    You can still enjoy a game you loose, and if you win as marines then it's even more rewarding that you've had to work for it. While there are people clammering to be marines I dont think they should make it any easier to win.
  • EpochEpoch Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1474Members
    Well, I do think something is wrong, because my 12 player server was the same way (sorry, no numbers). I might be raising the player count soon, so we'll see.
  • MonsieurEvilMonsieurEvil Join Date: 2002-01-22 Member: 4Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    I'd be very curious to see some more stats from servers that host clan matches and scrims. Verrrryyyyy interested... good data here folks, more more more.
  • PegePege Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
    It is good that some smart people finally use statistics to figure out the game balance instead of making insane theories. Now if only you could figure out which chamber was built first and collect information about victories with certain chambers... Then you could count the percentage of sensory/defense/movement chamber wins and maybe, just maybe, stop the everlasting "sensory vs defense"-struggle (or at least give some proof one way or the other).

    Great job anyway! I hope more admins post their win statistics!
  • TempusTempus Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12540Members
    These are from public servers. With n00b marines. And n00b commanders.

    Who is surprised?

    Nothing to see here...move along.
  • ZdroneZdrone Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3914Members, Constellation
    edited February 2003
    Ok, originally posted a sarcastic comment but realized it serves no purpose. I'm not looking for a debate on "public vs private" servers (although obviously you are).

    How bout next time, when you see the phrase "public server" in the title of the post, YOU move along. Obviously there are others that are interested.
  • BlahmanBlahman Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 85Members, NS1 Playtester
    <a href='http://128.194.11.209/ns/maps.php' target='_blank'>http://128.194.11.209/ns/maps.php</a>

    16 player server. Notice the marines win about 25% of the time.
    I'm convinced its not a problem with the game, rather it's a problem with the players I usually see on marines. They ignore the commander, or in the rare case that they obey the commander, he's an idiot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    However, when the marines have their act together and the commander knows what he's doing, it's much more of a toss-up between who wins.
  • EpochEpoch Join Date: 2002-10-10 Member: 1474Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Blahman+Feb 12 2003, 04:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Blahman @ Feb 12 2003, 04:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm convinced its not a problem with the game, rather it's a problem with the players I usually see on marines. They ignore the commander, or in the rare case that they obey the commander, he's an idiot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->

    However, when the marines have their act together and the commander knows what he's doing, it's much more of a toss-up between who wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree. I believe the balance issues (every single one of them, except for the sensory chamber) lie within the players' abilities and attitudes.

    Whenever I first played Natural Selection I was convinced that people would have a more difficult time picking up the Kharaa. It seems to have turned out to be the opposite. Despite the differences between the Kharaa and the typical deathmatch-style, players seem to be better at them than Marines. Despite the fact that players are used to playing with guns instead of melee weapons (most players, anyway; I am making a generalization), they have more trouble winning as Marines.
  • PlinkoPlinko Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 5850Members
    Sigh, everyone posting about the ability level of the players is an unqualified moron, flat out.
    You don't play on those servers, so you have no idea, do you? That kind of smug attitude is what's keeping players away from N-S.

    People don't just decide to join an organized group of players or a clan and magically become good at the game. They download it, play on some publics and decide if they want to devote time to it. If the public server experience is crap, then people will just uninstall it and go away. Right now, the experience for marines is junk on these servers. If this trend continues, many server ops will stop running N-S entirely, further limiting the intrduction of N-S to players. I know the guy who pays for Chi Mayhem is frustrated to no end by these statistics.

    In any case, many public servers attract a hardcore group of regular players, ones that play at a single server whenever possible, it seems unlikely that those players all join aliens all the time, resulting in the 75-85 percent victories for aliens on small to medium public servers. If the theory that public servers are all idiots is true, than isn't it likely that the idiocy on each team will balance out a little more evenly?

    That stupid attitude also ignores the contention that public servers with larger playerlimits see much more even victory totals. if that's the case, then the problem isn't public servers, is it? Then the problem is that marines face an unfair disadvantage when there are 9 or fewer players on a team, something that maybe could be addressed.
  • verboseverbose Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9968Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Plinko+Feb 12 2003, 05:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Plinko @ Feb 12 2003, 05:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sigh, everyone posting about the ability level of the players is an unqualified moron, flat out.
    You don't play on those servers, so you have no idea, do you?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Your inflammatory opening statement is not only inappropriate, but incorrect. Many of us play on our own servers, and the servers of the other operators on this board, regularly, as well as random pubs. We do have a good idea of the skill levels out there.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That kind of smug attitude is what's keeping players away from N-S.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I don't think our attitudes have an iota of impact. I have absolutely no contact with the vast majority of gamers. How is my attitude going to sway them against playing NS?

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In any case, many public servers attract a hardcore group of regular players, ones that play at a single server whenever possible, it seems unlikely that those players all join aliens all the time, resulting in the 75-85 percent victories for aliens on small to medium public servers. If the theory that public servers are all idiots is true, than isn't it likely that the idiocy on each team will balance out a little more evenly?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Yes and no. I have a favorite public server that I spend most of my time on (and it's not mine). There are quite a few regulars on that server, with a fairly high skill level, so that teamplay (and a little luck) determines the outcome of most games. I would venture a guess that marines win about roughly half the time. When I hop onto other pubs, the majority of the players have a significantly lower skill level than the regulars I'm used to playing with, and have poor ability to work as part of a team. In the absence of coordination and skill (on both sides), the Kharaa have an advantage. Thus, the pub win ratios that have been reported.

    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That stupid attitude also ignores the contention that public servers with larger playerlimits see much more even victory totals. if that's the case, then the problem isn't public servers, is it? Then the problem is that marines face an unfair disadvantage when there are 9 or fewer players on a team, something that maybe could be addressed.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Show me data that larger pub servers have even win ratios. I do believe that larger games adjust the scales positively for the marines, but I don't believe small team sizes are the dominating cause of marine losses. The server I frequent maxes out at 12 pub players, and is full for most of the post-work hours, with an additional VIP usually occupying a reserved slot. Like I stated before, the marines win significantly more there than I see on other pubs. My many hours of gaming there lead me to believe that the major contributing factor is marine teamwork.

    But all this is fairly obvious, and has been covered many times on these boards. On public servers, where the majority of the players are strangers to each other, and have trouble (for whatever reason) working together, the Kharaa playstyle has a significant advantage.
  • BytorBytor Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9323Members
    Here's what I don't understand: People are saying "It's not a game balance issue that causes aliens to win 75% of the games, it's just that the marines are all newbs with newb commanders blah blah."

    Aren't the two kind of the same thing?

    Meaning, the fact that marines are more dependent on teamwork than aliens, IS a game balance issue. It seems obvious from all the stats posted here, that if each team is equally skilled, marines will most likely lose. How can that not be a balance issue?

    I also tend to think that this same imbalance would show up in controlled clan play, too. Everyone is making the assumption that in clan matches and such, the level of skill on the marine side will be higher overall, and thus marines won't get stomped as much. Assuming that's correct, won't the level of skill be elevated on the alien side also? If so, won't the 74%/25% loss/win ratio for marines still hold up? Or are we thinking there's some plateau of teamwork that cannot be overcome on the alien side, thus tipping the scales towards the marines as the overall skill levels on each team increase?

    This is not a flame, nor is it a complaint about the balance of NS. It rocks the way it is, as far as I'm concerened. I love playing aliens when I want to feel like we're dominating. I love playing marines when I want to go for a glorious victory against the odds.

    I'm just curious about some people's thinking on the topic.

    P.S. - I play regularly on CHI Mayhem as well, and we often have a good marine team that listens to the experienced commander, yet the marines still lose about 75% of the games. I feel this is because the alien team usually has a decent number of skilled players on it too.
  • cracker_jackmaccracker_jackmac Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6891Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2003
    NS wasn't ment for pub games anyway...its designed more for clan matches than anything. The fact that the pub "balance" sucks is mainly skill....Marines are too use to being WW2 style....you gata be sneaky.....if you hear a fade...don't get ready to fire....find a close crevase and put your **** in it and face the wall......ppl who play on my server see me do this so much and just laugh histarictyl....it works! I don't start blazing...they don't know i'm there...they go to attack our base....i go and siege the hive...its that simple...its all about skill for marines.....Yes i was a rambo...but we trying to hold another hive as well so i was sent out rambo style.

    But its the gun-ho additudes of CS,DoD, BF1942, etc to name a few that take away from the sneaky factor....Flayra didn't put silence for aliens because he needed a 3rd option for movemnent chambers. Nor Cloaking for Senosry. He put them there so aliens could be sneaky too. Marines are sneaky sneaky if you don't jump around waiting for a TF, or not shooting at every alien u see run by.

    I think this is how Flayra ment us to play the game, IMO, and not Gun-Ho style.


    In summary, i think its a players playing style that needs to change. The game is fine. Although....there are still balance issues with fades.....6v6.....u have maybe 3 marines at a time....easy for a fade. 10v10, fade doesn't stand much of a chance...turned into a pencil....

    but thats just another subject.
  • verboseverbose Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9968Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Bytor+Feb 12 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bytor @ Feb 12 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Here's what I don't understand: People are saying "It's not a game balance issue that causes aliens to win 75% of the games, it's just that the marines are all newbs with newb commanders blah blah."

    Aren't the two kind of the same thing?

    Meaning, the fact that marines are more dependent on teamwork than aliens, IS a game balance issue. It seems obvious from all the stats posted here, that if each team is equally skilled, marines will most likely lose. How can that not be a balance issue? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The marines often fail to use all the tools at their disposal. Like the commanders who forget to upgrade armor and weapons. Or the marines who fail to use the resource that is their teammates, instead expecting their own "skillz" to win the day. You know, the bouncing marine who blocks your line of fire as you try to cut down the skulk rushing down the hall. If the balance was adjusted so that a poorly-played marine team could still win, a well-played marine team will then dominate every game.

    My humble opinion is that the balance is pretty good where it's at. From what I've seen, the average commanding and cooperative skills of Random Pub Player are slowly increasing with time, and subsequently the marine's win ratio is slowly growing. The Kharaa win more now because the common FPS player already has the skill and mindset that mates well with the alien units. The NS player base is still in its infancy; give the players some more time to learn.
  • QuestionQuestion Join Date: 2002-11-18 Member: 9180Members
    Dont know if this helps but i did a small test.

    On a 4 player game,aliens were getting 2 res per RT and marines were getting 1.Naturally the game balance was screwed so badly in the aliens favour they had 2nd hive all turreted up and hive building in 5 minutes.....

    Im ASSUMING,that since more players = more res,that when marines get 2 res per RT,the aliens are getting 3.Which is kinda bad.....

    Could anyone do a DEFINATE check?
  • BytorBytor Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9323Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Feb 13 2003, 01:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Feb 13 2003, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The marines often fail to use all the tools at their disposal. Like the commanders who forget to upgrade armor and weapons. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Excellent point. There are many more strategies for how to spend your resources on the marine side. I guess you could say it has a steeper learning curve, thus a newbie marine team is more likely to lose than a newbie alien team. Just thinking out loud here ...
  • PegePege Join Date: 2002-11-27 Member: 10088Members
    I'd say that marines have a more complex gamestyle and that a single good marine (with LMG) can't do anything against a wall of lame, but a single good skulk can wipe out a PGed outpost by taking out the TF (if it isn't noticed) costing the marines about 100+ RP. Translated to dummies: Single good skulk can do a lot of damage to marine economy, but a single good marine can't. Marines overall require much more understanding of the game (Where to go? No hivesight. Wheres the war? No "under attack"-warnings.), while aliens can just loosely run around the map killing single or pairs of marines leading to alien victory (all you need is a gorge to build). And I completely agree that this is a balance issue, because good marines should have the same chance to provide their team maximum benefit as aliens. Aliens can do so much more damage compared to their cost... Only chance for good players to maximize their benefit is to go commander, but there can only be one and that cripples your chances to help your people to actually kill the skulks. Someone's already said a thousand times that a good commander can't win the match if marines suck...
  • cracker_jackmaccracker_jackmac Join Date: 2002-11-04 Member: 6891Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Many commanders fail to realize one of the most important aspects of the game.

    The Welder. Sure....they give a dude a welder who welds the IPs and Armory. What about the other 6 tf? This marine is never put onto perminate detail of welding....on Hera, this is the most important person IMO. Marines lose alot of ground because of that single skulk. every team of 2, 1 should have a welder to fix marine stucts and weld vents.

    I don't see this very often because everyone is use to TFC turrets that are nearly invincable and kill skulls in under a second. Turrets are only good if they hold still usually.

    ALot of players don't realize it either. Again, just to prove the point its skill and not the game balance.
  • zaikozaiko Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9716Members
    i've only logged for 5 days, but this is the win stats:

    <a href='http://ns1.underg.net/~stats/maps.html' target='_blank'>http://ns1.underg.net/~stats/maps.html</a>
  • verboseverbose Join Date: 2002-11-25 Member: 9968Members, Constellation
    <!--QuoteBegin--Bytor+Feb 13 2003, 03:31 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bytor @ Feb 13 2003, 03:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--verbose+Feb 13 2003, 01:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (verbose @ Feb 13 2003, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The marines often fail to use all the tools at their disposal. Like the commanders who forget to upgrade armor and weapons. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Excellent point. There are many more strategies for how to spend your resources on the marine side. I guess you could say it has a steeper learning curve, thus a newbie marine team is more likely to lose than a newbie alien team. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    "Marines have a steeper learning curve." That's exactly what I was alluding to, but failed to explicitly state.
  • BytorBytor Join Date: 2002-11-19 Member: 9323Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--cracker jackmac+Feb 13 2003, 12:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (cracker jackmac @ Feb 13 2003, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Again, just to prove the point its skill and not the game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Again, a skill issue that only applies to one team IS a game balance issue ALSO. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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